---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/28/06: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:34 AM - CJ Air Filter (Craig Payne) 2. 04:26 AM - Re: Kimball Clean Kit (A. Dennis Savarese) 3. 07:00 AM - Re: Wilga (Genzlinger, Reade) 4. 07:58 AM - Re: My CJ is up for Auction on EBAY-Motors (Ernie) 5. 08:14 AM - Yak 55 Part Needed - New or Used (Jill Gernetzke) 6. 02:18 PM - Re: Kimball Clean Kit (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 7. 02:47 PM - Re: Kimball Clean Kit (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 8. 08:02 PM - Re: Kimball Clean Kit (Roger Kemp) 9. 08:09 PM - Re: Kimball Clean Kit (Herb Coussons) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:02 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Yak-List: CJ Air Filter Brackett BA197E. You can order direct from the company at 928-757-4009. On my "cheese grater". I unsoldered that fine brass wire and the slipped the foam sock over it. Hurts MAP some but OTHO, the silicon readings on oil analysis run in single digit PPM. Craig Payne cpayne@joimail.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:59 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit I'd try either Doug Sapp first, Carl/Jill Hays or George/Cliff Coy. Lastly, try Robb Kent in the UK. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: David McGirt To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 7:42 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Ok, if I wanted to order one of these springs, where would I find one? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:18 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: =ashBack] Kimball Clean Kit It's under the cap where the oil pressure adjustment screw is on the right side of the oil pump. The adjustment screw applies the pressure to the spring that pushes on the pressure relief valve. Remove the cap on the right side of the oil pump. Before you remove the adjuster screw etc., rotate the screw counterclockwise and count the number of turns until it comes out. That way you'll have a starting point to resetting the oil pressure. Loosen and remove the large nut and pull out the spring and valve. Check the spring carefully. If it is bent in anyway, replace it because the bent spring will not allow the valve to seat properly. The valve itself will have a groove in it from where it seats against the valve seat. The valve seat is not like a normal valve seat which mates perfectly to the valve. It is nothing more than a machined hole. That is why there is a groove around the valve. So don't try polishing the seat. Just make sure there is no buildup of any kind on the seat and it feels smooth to the touch. You can polish the valve to remove the groove and reinstall it. If the spring is in tact, flip it 180 degrees and reassemble everything except leave the cap off because you will have to adjust the oil pressure. Turn the screw in the number of turns you counted when you removed it. Then run the engine and reset the oil pressure to the desired level. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Oortman 1 To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:59 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Dennis, Where can I find that relief valve?? I know it's on the oil pump but do you have a picture or something??? Since about the last 100 hour check up we have this problem..it looks like it's worth looking in to. Hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens A. Dennis Savarese Verzonden: zaterdag 26 augustus 2006 2:34 Aan: yak-list@matronics.com Onderwerp: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit The oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump and the spring that applies the pressure on the valve are the primary problem with excessive oil drain. I have seen the spring bent and also broken. Both caused the valve not to seat. I have pulled the valve out, polished out the groove, reinstalled it and stopped the excessive oil drain. Fix the pressure relief valve and/or the spring and you will basically eliminate the problem. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit And the oil safety valve will work perfectly UNLESS: 1. You are out of air and decide to prop the engine, which sooner or later all of us will do. 2. Use the manual selector valve handle on the start solanoid. Please do not misunderstand me. I think Kevin's product is noteworthy and I will eventually buy one myself and install it. PLUS, the current installation methods include safety designs to prevent engine damage/loss, (such as the mentioned oil safety switch) but they are not fool-proof. The ONLY method I can think of that would be 100% effective would be to tie the MAG P-Leads into this switch, would would automatically ground them if the oil valve was closed, thus totally preventing engine start... and of course that adds the potential of other things going wrong. Just being the Devil's Advocate here... as I said, I think the valve is great. Mark Bitterlich N50YK ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:13 To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: =ashBack] =ashBack] Kimball Clean [LashBack] Kit David, Here is a link to the page on our website which shows the various items we have developed and offer for the M14 engine. All these items were originally developed for the Pitts model 12. As you can see, the page is listed as the moose support page because we offer these items to Murphy Moose builders as well. Yes, you can use the oil safety switch on an electric start engine to prevent starting without the oil valve fully open. moose support page Sincerely, Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc. PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd. Zellwood, FL 32798 407-889-3451 phone 407-889-7168 fax www.jimkimballenterprises.com www.pittsmo del12.com .com/Navigator?Yak-List .com/Navigator?Yak-List .com/Navigator?Yak-List ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:29 AM PST US From: "Genzlinger, Reade" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Wilga --> Yak-List message posted by: "Genzlinger, Reade" Francis: I have a 1993 104-80. Feel free to call any time. 215-914-0370 Reade Genzlinger > -----Original Message----- > From: Francis Butler [mailto:francisbutler@mac.com] > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 10:05 PM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Wilga > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:45 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: My CJ is up for Auction on EBAY-Motors From: "Ernie" --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" Thanks, I've got too many airplanes, and I cant give the Jet away. I'm not really flying the CJ as much anymore since there is no one local to fly with, except for 1 neigbor of mine, but he works a lot. Additionally, I've come to a personal decision not to fly mass formations any more, I feel that I'm pushing my personal risk threshold. The crash of those 2 RV's just pushed me over the edge. I still plan on attending the local RPA events but in my jet instead. I have all info on my blog site. http://commiewarbird.blogspot.com Ernie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57976#57976 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:15 AM PST US From: Jill Gernetzke Subject: Yak-List: Yak 55 Part Needed - New or Used --> Yak-List message posted by: Jill Gernetzke Group, I have a customer in need of 2 of the plastic windows for the wing-mounted fuel gauges on the Yak 55, Part number 556101-203. Please contact me off list. Thank you! Jill Gernetzke M-14P, Incorporated 4905 Flightline Drive Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417 (928)-681-4400 Fax(928)681-4404 www.m-14p.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" I am just playing Devil's advocate here like I said. 1. The start solenoid can be activated manually, and like I said before, someone might also prop the aircraft. 2. Not everyone can prop a YAK or Suke with a qualified man in the cockpit. I own a YAK-50 that was totaled that proves that point. It was run out of air, the man propped it, and it then ran away and smashed into a hanger. So .... respectfully... lights, buzzers, sirens, or whistles.. nothing is 100% for sure and there are a lot of wrecked airplanes to prove it. All I am saying is that any system that allows any possibility of an engine to start with a valve closed that shuts off the oil totally to that engine, raises the possibility that it could actually some day be started without that valve open causing the loss of that engine. Of course the opposite is also true... we have an M-14 right here that threw a rod in flight due to it being cranked with a hyd lock condition that could have been prevented with the oil shut off valve! Truthfully... one of the best systems I have seen was on a Russian modified SU-31 that incorporated a oil shut off valve, but also had a big red metal rod that then stuck out of the cowl right in front of the eyes of the pilot's eyes. But even that could be over-looked. In my mind it really is a tradeoff... risk in one direction versus risk in another. R/S, Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Shafer Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 20:00 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit ----- Original Message ----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit And the oil safety valve will work perfectly UNLESS: 1. You are out of air and decide to prop the engine, which sooner or later all of us will do. 2. Use the manual selector valve handle on the start solanoid. If you wire it like Bill Blackwell does, the power to the start solenoid is interrupted as well. Besides we always have a pilot in the cockpit to hit the start switch, pump the primer and hold the brakes while someone props the plane. The pilot will recognise that the oil switch has not been moved or he will see the big red light on the panel. Jim Shafer ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Kevin, you are absolutely correct and I agree with every word you have said. I believe in your system(s), and plan on purchasing them, or at least some of them, myself. That said, I am sure that if every M-14 equipped aircraft had the shut off valve, sooner or later some yahoo would manage to start one with the valve off. Right now, the ones equipped with the valve are a very small minority. If after this discourse, anyone has any doubt at all, let me make one thing perfectly clear: I believe that Kevin Kimball and his associates produce some of the finest parts and come up with some of the best ideas (relating to just about anything and everything) that I have ever come across. I recommend his aircraft, his products and his accessories without doubt or question. If this sounds like a commercial.... sorry, but I believe when someone deserves praise, they ought to get it, just as when someone is a crook, the world needs to know THAT... no punches pulled. I am a strong advocate and supporter of every single thing Kevin's company stands for, has made, or has on the drawing board. We're lucky to have someone like him around. Mark Bitterlich N50YK -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 19:45 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Mark, You are correct to point out a lack of 100% fool proof systems in airplanes. I am not aware of a single 100% fool proof system of any kind in an airplane including Yaks and Pitts Model 12s. Why? Pilots are human and despite the best efforts of designers and component developers, these flawed human pilots still find ways to misuse, not use, and abuse systems. Your 2 bulleted points are valid but it should be noted that an oil shut off valve does not eliminate the oil pressure gauge which should be checked at engine start with or without a clean kit system being installed. Airplanes with throttle switches, buzzers, barber poles, etc., still land gear up. I am not aware of any M14 engine loss related to an oil shut off valve and clean kit, ours or others. Maybe someone has specific data on this to share. I am aware of many engine losses due to hydraulic lock. The only real method we have today is the use of check lists and forcing the pilot to be a creature of trained habit in using various aircraft systems. I suppose this will have to do until airplanes have full cognitive reasoning so that they will automatically latch the door or canopy properly, set the power, retract and extend the gear at the proper times, handle the flaps, switch fuel tanks, fill the tanks, make sure the gas and oil caps are secure, the pilot cover is off and the airplane is clear of the hangar door before the door is lowered. Of course, then there is no need for the pilot, right? We can't make everything perfect....only progressively less bad with each iteration. Besides, once we humans get everything in the world absolutely correct, there would be no work for engineers, pilots, politicians, doctors, etc. Then what will I do to earn grocery money? Airplanes will most likely be illegal by then anyway.... Shut off valves and scavenge systems do make the M14 engine more user friendly and less messy. However, they have to be used properly in order to be safe. Sincerely, Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc. PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd. Zellwood, FL 32798 407-889-3451 phone 407-889-7168 fax www.jimkimballenterprises.com www.pittsmodel12.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:58 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Saying all that, it still seems the Russians pretty well thought of everything with the oil shut off valve in the oil pump. Had to clean mine about two years ago and have not had any problems with it since. I realize the Kimballs have some good stuff. Their intake drain being one. I have noticed that my drain valve on the 50 does leak some after the valve is close and have seen it doing it after engine shut down. Yes it is fully closed too. So nothing is perfect. It is up to us the pilot in charge to make sure our steads are airworthy. 10 to 1 the hydraulic lock occured because some one shorted the pull through. 8 blades being the minimum. I prefer 14. If there is oil draining from the intake or and exhaust stack, I pull more. If there is resistance to pulling the blade forward, I do not pull any farther. If it is solid, then rocking the blade back slightly will usually open a valve and the oil will puke out. If it is not moving, the off comes the cowling and the spark plugs are pulled. Since I already have a drain kit I do not pull the intake plugs. Early on I asked why there was not a manual oil cutoff valve to prevent an overflow that occures when the check valve is grunged up and allowing oil to overflow. After seeing that the check valve that the Russians invented was so efficient at keeping oil in my tank (particularly, I a little preventative maintenance was done regularly), I decided not to break a system that was not broke. If it is broke, then fix it. Doc ----- Original Message ----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: 8/28/2006 4:59:58 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Kevin, you are absolutely correct and I agree with every word you have said. I believe in your system(s), and plan on purchasing them, or at least some of them, myself. That said, I am sure that if every M-14 equipped aircraft had the shut off valve, sooner or later some yahoo would manage to start one with the valve off. Right now, the ones equipped with the valve are a very small minority. If after this discourse, anyone has any doubt at all, let me make one thing perfectly clear: I believe that Kevin Kimball and his associates produce some of the finest parts and come up with some of the best ideas (relating to just about anything and everything) that I have ever come across. I recommend his aircraft, his products and his accessories without doubt or question. If this sounds like a commercial.... sorry, but I believe when someone deserves praise, they ought to get it, just as when someone is a crook, the world needs to know THAT... no punches pulled. I am a strong advocate and supporter of every single thing Kevin's company stands for, has made, or has on the drawing board. We're lucky to have someone like him around. Mark Bitterlich N50YK -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 19:45 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Mark, You are correct to point out a lack of 100% fool proof systems in airplanes. I am not aware of a single 100% fool proof system of any kind in an airplane including Yaks and Pitts Model 12s. Why? Pilots are human and despite the best efforts of designers and component developers, these flawed human pilots still find ways to misuse, not use, and abuse systems. Your 2 bulleted points are valid but it should be noted that an oil shut off valve does not eliminate the oil pressure gauge which should be checked at engine start with or without a clean kit system being installed. Airplanes with throttle switches, buzzers, barber poles, etc., still land gear up. I am not aware of any M14 engine loss related to an oil shut off valve and clean kit, ours or others. Maybe someone has specific data on this to share. I am aware of many engine losses due to hydraulic lock. The only real method we have today is the use of check lists and forcing the pilot to be a creature of trained habit in using various aircraft systems. I suppose this will have to do until airplanes have full cognitive reasoning so that they will automatically latch the door or canopy properly, set the power, retract and extend the gear at the proper times, handle the flaps, switch fuel tanks, fill the tanks, make sure the gas and oil caps are secure, the pilot cover is off and the airplane is clear of the hangar door before the door is lowered. Of course, then there is no need for the pilot, right? We can't make everything perfect....only progressively less bad with each iteration. Besides, once we humans get everything in the world absolutely correct, there would be no work for engineers, pilots, politicians, doctors, etc. Then what will I do to earn grocery money? Airplanes will most likely be illegal by then anyway.... Shut off valves and scavenge systems do make the M14 engine more user friendly and less messy. However, they have to be used properly in order to be safe. Sincerely, Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc. PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd. Zellwood, FL 32798 407-889-3451 phone 407-889-7168 fax www.jimkimballenterprises.com www.pittsmodel12.com .com/Navigator?Yak-List ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:16 PM PST US From: Herb Coussons Subject: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit Anyone know where to get the case acess that goes on the right side of the case when facing the engine? We had a discussion about oil in the cylinders and fluid lock at OSH. Yeargis has a glass cover on the case that if I understood correctly allows him to pull the prop through after shutdown - while he can see the position of the crank. When the crank stops in the highest 12 oclock position then no oil siphons down into the case. Does anyone in the US know of this mod? It seems simple and easy to install - 3 bolts unless you have a Yak 52TW with electric starter - then this cover is used to mount the starter. It also solves the problem of starting with no oil. I have never heard of it or seen it discussed, yet there it was on Yeargis' Sukhoi and Sergei knew of it too. Any Euro's on the list know of it? Herb On Aug 28, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote: > Kevin, you are absolutely correct and I agree with every word you > have said. I believe in your system(s), and plan on purchasing > them, or at least some of them, myself. > > That said, I am sure that if every M-14 equipped aircraft had the > shut off valve, sooner or later some yahoo would manage to start > one with the valve off. Right now, the ones equipped with the > valve are a very small minority. > > If after this discourse, anyone has any doubt at all, let me make > one thing perfectly clear: I believe that Kevin Kimball and his > associates produce some of the finest parts and come up with some > of the best ideas (relating to just about anything and everything) > that I have ever come across. I recommend his aircraft, his > products and his accessories without doubt or question. If this > sounds like a commercial.... sorry, but I believe when someone > deserves praise, they ought to get it, just as when someone is a > crook, the world needs to know THAT... no punches pulled. I am a > strong advocate and supporter of every single thing Kevin's company > stands for, has made, or has on the drawing board. We're lucky to > have someone like him around. > > Mark Bitterlich > N50YK > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list- > server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KJKimball@aol.com > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 19:45 > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Kimball Clean Kit > > Mark, > > You are correct to point out a lack of 100% fool proof systems in > airplanes. I am not aware of a single 100% fool proof system of > any kind in an airplane including Yaks and Pitts Model 12s. Why? > Pilots are human and despite the best efforts of designers and > component developers, these flawed human pilots still find ways to > misuse, not use, and abuse systems. > > Your 2 bulleted points are valid but it should be noted that an oil > shut off valve does not eliminate the oil pressure gauge which > should be checked at engine start with or without a clean kit > system being installed. Airplanes with throttle switches, buzzers, > barber poles, etc., still land gear up. > > I am not aware of any M14 engine loss related to an oil shut off > valve and clean kit, ours or others. Maybe someone has specific > data on this to share. I am aware of many engine losses due to > hydraulic lock. > > The only real method we have today is the use of check lists and > forcing the pilot to be a creature of trained habit in using > various aircraft systems. I suppose this will have to do until > airplanes have full cognitive reasoning so that they will > automatically latch the door or canopy properly, set the power, > retract and extend the gear at the proper times, handle the flaps, > switch fuel tanks, fill the tanks, make sure the gas and oil caps > are secure, the pilot cover is off and the airplane is clear of the > hangar door before the door is lowered. Of course, then there is > no need for the pilot, right? > > We can't make everything perfect....only progressively less bad > with each iteration. Besides, once we humans get everything in the > world absolutely correct, there would be no work for engineers, > pilots, politicians, doctors, etc. Then what will I do to earn > grocery money? Airplanes will most likely be illegal by then > anyway.... > > Shut off valves and scavenge systems do make the M14 engine more > user friendly and less messy. However, they have to be used > properly in order to be safe. > > Sincerely, > > Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering > Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc. > PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd. > Zellwood, FL 32798 > 407-889-3451 phone > 407-889-7168 fax > www.jimkimballenterprises.com > www.pittsmodel12.com > > .com/Navigator?Yak-List > >