Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:39 AM - Yak 18T Cowling (JOE HOWSE)
2. 03:55 PM - Fw: Rosebud (Terry Lewis)
3. 06:27 PM - Help In Florida... (Zjopa)
4. 06:48 PM - Re: Help In Florida... (Stephen Fox)
5. 07:03 PM - Re: Help In Florida... (Zjopa)
6. 07:05 PM - Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Rob Rowe)
7. 07:24 PM - English - Russian alphabet map (Rob Rowe)
8. 07:31 PM - Re: Help In Florida... (Roger Kemp)
9. 07:50 PM - Re: Help In Florida... (Zjopa)
10. 08:14 PM - Re: MP gauge (Sarah Tobin)
11. 08:44 PM - Re: Help In Florida... (Samuel Sax)
Message 1
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Looking for a lower cowl or a complete set for an 18T.
Joe Howse
joeh@shaw.ca
250 748 2203
Message 2
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----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Fw: Rosebud
----- Original Message -----
From: JAKESLAKE@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: Rosebud
An old southern country preacher form Georgia had a teenage son named
David (AKA Rosebud) and it was getting time the boy should give some
thought to choosing a profession. Like many young men, the boy didn't
really know what he wanted to do,
and he didn't seem too concerned about it.
One day, while the boy was away at school, his father decided to try
an
experiment. He went into the boy's room and placed on his study table
four objects:
- a Bible,
- a silver dollar,
- a bottle of whisky and
- a Playboy magazine
I'll just hide behind the door," the old preacher said to himself,
"and when he comes home from school this afternoon, I'll see which
object
he picks up. If it's the Bible, he's going to be a preacher like me,
and
what a blessing that would be! If he picks up the dollar, he's going
to
be a businessman, and that would be OK, But if
picks up the bottle, he's going to be a no-good drunkard, and, Lord,
what a shame that would be. And worst of all, if he picks up that
magazine he's gonna be a skirt-chasin' bum."
The old man waited anxiously, and soon heard his son's footsteps as he
entered the house whistling and headed for his room. The boy tossed
his books on the bed, and as he turned to leave the room he
spotted the objects on the table. With curiosity in his eye, he walked
over to inspect them.
Finally, he picked up the Bible and placed it under his arm. He picked
up the silver dollar and dropped it into his pocket. He uncorked the
bottle and took a big drink while he admired this month's Centerfold.
"Lord have mercy," the old preacher disgustedly whispered, "he's gonna
be a fighter pilot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Help In Florida... |
Hi There...
Just a re-newbie here..
I'm at Kissimmee with a 52TD am looking for some nearby Yak Savvy help... (Pref
A&P)
Who is around this area??
Thanks in advance..
Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'582#96582
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| Subject: | Re: Help In Florida... |
Ron -
If you are not already member of the RPA (Red Star Pilots
Association.) You might consider joining (http://www.flyredstar.org).
On the web site you will find a member list broken down by region
with contact info.
You will also get great answers to your questions including this one
of this list.
Steve Fox
On Feb 21, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Zjopa wrote:
>
> Hi There...
> Just a re-newbie here..
> I'm at Kissimmee with a 52TD am looking for some nearby Yak Savvy
> help... (Pref A&P)
> Who is around this area??
> Thanks in advance..
> Ron
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'582#96582
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Help In Florida... |
Thanks Steve... Er yeah.. forgot to renew....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'593#96593
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
Mark,
Thanks for the additional operating voltage data ... I've also found some more
info on the differential relay.
I've included excerpts from the email you sent me too ... although you copied this
into the YAK-List for some reason it didn't appear.
My comments below are prefixed RR>> ...
Cheers, Rob
> Thank you. Since then, I have seen confirmation that there are two types
> of polarization relays.. if not more... since I have taken a second 200D
> apart. The one I have in the one I am invesitagating now is almost the same
> constuction, but it clearly has a large bus bar type arrangement that
> surrounds the lever arm and clearly is a current operated device. It is
> possible that the first one I had, which is now back in my airplane, had
> something LIKE that that might have been buried under the material that
> mounted the relay. I find it hard to believe there are two different
> designs... two different relays, sure.. .but not two different designs.
> Without a shadow of a doubt, this second one has a large current operated
> magnetic field influencing the lever arm.
> ....
> I agree with you. It is clear that the one mis-statement is the part that
> says: "Two windings on the same core". I have a clear definition of what a
> "core" is. Others may understand that term in a different way. What is
> true regardless, is that neither the first or second polarization relay I
> have examined have two systems on the same core. BOTH have a standard coil
> on core arrangement that is normal for "typical relays". I am assuming that
> this is the shunt winding. The series arrangment on the second example uses
> bar bar material to influence the magnetic field of the first standard
> winding and this I assume to be the series array.
>>RR I found & translated the (attached) DMR-200D drawing which provides a basic
cross-section of the differential relay, highlighting the various points we've
discussed;
- the latching mechanism appears to be the permanent magnets used to polarise the
operation (there's also a spring)
- the differential action across / between the shunt & series "windings" (sic)
tips the see-saw armature
- there is an adjustment screw shown
Unfortunately the accompanying description was the same as the YAK ops handbook,
which is even less informative than the Sukhoi info.
> Hmm... I could not find your attachment... but I am pretty sure it is the
> same device. I looked at a 52, and it was the same part in that aircraft.
> I did not open that one up though.
>>RR I'll resend the marked up photo of the installed DMR-200D to your private
email (c.300Kb), together with a
revised Russian / English alphabet mapping ... simplified & now includes all 31
Cyrillic chars used in modern Russian.
I'll put up a new "alphabet" thread on the YAK-List too with this PDF file to see
if it's of wider use / interest.
Btw - could not verify that I'd correctly labelled the "-" connection from my photo,
ditto could not locate connection "A" ... can you confirm please, if you
still have a DMR-200D to hand?
> The relay in question [TKE1R2D] has an A & B coil contact terminal on the 200D.
B
> goes to the terminal marked negative on the 200D , and A goes to terminal V
> on the 200D. The relay contacts themselves... there are three of them..
> unusual in itself. Contact marked number one on the relay itself feeds
> two relay "arms". These two arms are common to each other. A wire goes
> from relay terminal contact 1 and connects to the main generator input
> terminal, which by the way is also connected to the "+" terminal on the 200D
> with another internal connection, again as per the diagram.
>
> On this same relay, there is a solder contact point 2 AND 3. The diagram I sent
just shows them both marked as "3", but in reality they are marked on the relay
itself as 2 and 3. These are both normally open contacts that
> BOTH get connected to relay terminal 1 when the relay energizes. Terminal contact
2 goes to the Polarization relay contact terminal as shown in the diagram.
Terminal contact 3 feeds to the normally closed contacts of relay TKE210B as
per the diagram.
>>RR from your description it seems there are two sets of contacts with the inputs
paralleled from the generator feed; one output side feeds the external signalling
relay, the other feeds the series connection of the differential polarised
relay
>>RR From your email to me ...
> As an afterthought ... would it be possible for you to test the TKE1R2D
> activation voltage threshold as well please ... I'd guess that it would act
> like most "ordinary" relays / solenoids & work at c.1/3 of its rated voltage
> ... but these things are Russian so who knows.
>
> THEY SURPRISED ME BY TRIPPING AT A MUCH LOWER VOLTAGE THAN SUSPECTED.
>
> My interest lies in seeing how the whole DMR-200D interacts as the generator
> voltage increases post start-up.
>
> WITH A 24 VOLT BATTERY IN THE AIRCRAFT, THE 200D MAIN CONTACTOR CLOSED AT 18
> VOLTS.
RR>> Was there much of load on the battery just before the contactor closed ...
as presume the generator voltage needed to be just larger than the bus before
the shunt polarised relay would operate?
> HOWEVER, THE TEST CIRCUIT DID NOT ALLOW REVERSE CURRENT FLOW! IN
> THE AIRCRAFT, AS THE ENGINE RPM DECREASED, YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE WHERE CURRENT
> STARTS FLOWING IN REVERSE TO THE GENERATOR AS YOU WATCH THE AIRCRAFTS
> AMMETER. IT HAPPENS VERY QUICKLY, BUT I SAW AT LEAST 7-10 AMPS OF REVERSE
> CURRENT FLOW AND THEN THE CONTACTOR KICKED OPEN AND THE GENERATOR LIGHT CAME
> ON.
>
> Logically the TKE1R2D activates first (at what voltage?),
>
> APPARENTLY AT A PRETTY DARN LOW VOLTAGE.
>
> allowing the
> TKE210B to do so next until the differential between the generator & the
> battery becomes too small (at what voltage?) & it releases, thereby arming
> the polarised shunt relay when the generator voltage just exceeds that of
> the battery.
>
> "APPARENTLY" IS THE CORRECT TERM. I CAN VERIFY THAT FROM TODAYS ENGINE
> TESTS (REAL WORLD) THAT WHEN THE GENERATOR LIGHT WENT OUT, AS IN... THE MAIN
> CONTACTOR CLOSING, WHICH THUS MEANS TOO WHEN THE POLARIZATION RELAY CLOSED,
> THAT I OBSERVED ZERO... I REPEAT *NO* REVERSE CURRENT. AS SOON AS THE
> GENERATOR CAME ON LINE, THERE WAS A POSITIVE CHARGE THE BATTERIES, WHICH
> CONFIRMS THE NOTE THAT SAYS THAT GEN VOLTAGE MUST BE HIGHER THAN BAT VOLTAGE
> TO CLOSE THE CONTACTOR. I TESTED THIS AT LEAST 10 TIMES. ON THE OTHER
> HAND, WHEN ENGINE RPM WAS SLOWED UNTIL THE GEN LIGHT CAME ON, THE REVERSE
> CURRENT SURGED..... REPEAT ... SURGED AND THEN THE CONTACTOR IMMEDIATELY
> OPENED. THESE OBSERVED EVENTS TEND TO VERIFY THEORY OF OPERATION.
>>RR There seems to be a tipping point at (34% rpm) where the shunt wound generator
creates a load in its own right through becoming a battery driven DC motor
... which could well be the surge you saw before the polarised relay isolated
it. From searching the net I also found a reference to a WWII era aircraft that
was prone to having the reverse current relay stick causing the battery to
quickly run flat, unless overidden by the "generator switch" (that would deactivate
the TKE1R2D in our case).
> What happens when the battery is less than its rated voltage might be
> interesting to see as well, with the above trigger voltages being the key ..
> hence the interest.
>
> THERE IS INDEED A NOTE ON THAT. THE 200D WILL CLOSE AND PROVIDE BUS POWER
> AT NO LOWER THAN 20 VOLTS WITH A DEAD BATTERY.
>>RR Wondered about this 20 volt statement (hence the above queries on relay operating
voltages) ... need to think on this some more as to why it stabilises
at greater than 20 volts. From a practical perspective I guess it's not a good
idea to have the generator charge a heavily discharged battery anyway, especially
if you're using Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries as these can
be damaged by charging them over c.1/4 (4-6 amps) of their rated capacity ...
aside from the safety issues.
> Thanks again for being the R&D department!
>
> IT WAS NOT BY CHOICE ROB! IN ANY CASE, I AM NO LONGER WORRIED ABOUT WHAT I
> AM GOING TO DO WHEN IT BREAKS THE FIRST TIME AND I HAVE TO DECIPHER THE
> WIRING SCHEMATIC NIGHTMARE! NOW I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT, AND
> ALTHOUGH IT TOOK A WEEK OF HARD WORK, IT WAS WORTH IT IN THE END. WHAT I
> FOUND TO BE VERY GRATIFYING WAS SEEING THE REPAIRED 200D WORK PERFECTLY WITH
> AMERICAN MADE RELAYS REPLACING BOTH TKE DEVICES. THIS IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW
> SINCE THERE SEEM TO BE NO SPARE 200D DEVICES LAYING AROUND. I KNOW OF A FEW
> BAD ONES THAT I CAN NOW OFFER TO FIX... BUT I REALLY DO NOT LOOK FORWARD TO
> THE IDEA... THEY ARE A TIME CONSUMING PART TO REPAIR.
>
> Let me switch back to lower case here... I despise typing in upper case, it
> always feels like I am SCREAMING! :-) Here is something I also learned
> the hard way. The Russian wires are very stiff. I kept soldering them
> directly to my new relays and had a devil of a tiime doing so. My new relay
> solder points were very small and not strong. Hence I ruined about 3 of
> them before I said to heck with this nonsense! Instead I used American
> made teflon insulated 22 gage multi-strand wire to solder to my new relays
> and then spliced THAT into the old Russian wiring, replacing as much as the
> Russian wiring as I could as long as it was fairly easy. My new relays are
> rated at 2 amps of contact current. The relays that they are controlling
> have current draws about half of that. I think they should last. In any
> case, it was better than spending $1000 for a totally new system.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'596#96596
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dmr_200d_relay_723.pdf
Message 7
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| Subject: | English - Russian alphabet map |
Produced the attached Russian - English alphabet "map" arising fron a recent thread
on DC power relay markings below.
It's just intended for YAK-List use ... it will not meet with linguist approval!
> We're in need of a Yak-List nomenclature to avoid confusion between Cyrillic
& Western alphabets ... so I've attempted to put together a standard alphabet
map between the two as per the attached PDF file. Given it's not really practical
to try & describe the Cyrillic characters (the backwards E, upside down L,
the one that looks like a 6 etc) nor can these characters be universally posted
on the Yak-List ... fine on the web site, but plain text email trashes them.
So prefixing descriptions with for example "YL: R-27" can be read from the map
as "Yak-List: P-27" in Cyrillic, also useful when some of the chars look quite
similar and a mug shot of the definitive version can act as a reference.
Cheers, Rob R
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'600#96600
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_list_alphabet_mapping_790.pdf
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Help In Florida... |
Ron,
You have some good heads right near you over at Lakeland (LAL) with Jim
"Pappy" Golosby (cjpilot710@aol.com ) and Craig Payne ( cpayne@joimail.com
). Even if they do fly CJ's! They know alot about the M-14. The systems on
the CJ are very similar to the 52.
As Potus says, Join the RPA.. There is alot of help out there and alot of
fun flying that Commie airplane of yours with these guys. See ya at the
next fly-in!
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Stephen Fox <steve.fox@mac.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 2/21/2007 8:56:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Help In Florida...
>
>
> Ron -
> If you are not already member of the RPA (Red Star Pilots
> Association.) You might consider joining (http://www.flyredstar.org).
> On the web site you will find a member list broken down by region
> with contact info.
>
> You will also get great answers to your questions including this one
> of this list.
>
> Steve Fox
>
> On Feb 21, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Zjopa wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi There...
> > Just a re-newbie here..
> > I'm at Kissimmee with a 52TD am looking for some nearby Yak Savvy
> > help... (Pref A&P)
> > Who is around this area??
> > Thanks in advance..
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'582#96582
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Help In Florida... |
Fabulous... I had no Idea you guys were here... I'll contact you OL.. and come
down soon... (was only there two weeks ago for a $100 burger)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'607#96607
Message 10
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I have one too.
Smash
Jay Land <jland@popeandland.com> wrote:
Anybody have a russian manifold pressure gauge for sale?
Thanks,
Jay
---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Help In Florida... |
Ron,
As Doc indicated you have some really close by comrades ready to help and
fly with you.
Should you venture south you have a squadron of CJ's and a couple of Yak-52s
in the Miami area. Actually, we are having our annual Wings Over Miami
Museum Fly-in and Airshow on March 10 and 11th. If you are in-state, you
don't want to miss it. We are located at Tamiami airport - TMB, in Miami.
EVERY Red Star owner, Pilot, lover, and their second and third cousins, and
their mates and neighbors are invited!! (Did I forget anyone? :))
If you can, plan to arrive the Friday before otherwise early Saturday.
There will be lots of "Triple F + B" going on (Fun, Food, Flying and Beer).
Among many exotic warbirds, we will have a Yak-9 flying at the show (!).
Did I mention the F-14 Tomcat we recently received from the NAVY?
By the way, average temps are high 70s by day with mid 60s by night.
(Anything approaching the mid 40s is considered a winter emergency.)
Folks, Check our museum web site at: www.wingsovermiami.com
<http://www.wingsovermiami.com/> and come join us!
Any questions? Fire away!
Sam Sax
305.215.5599 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zjopa
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Help In Florida...
Hi There...
Just a re-newbie here..
I'm at Kissimmee with a 52TD am looking for some nearby Yak Savvy help...
(Pref A&P)
Who is around this area??
Thanks in advance..
Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'582#96582
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