Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:36 AM - Re: Extra Fuel (Cliff Coy)
2. 06:37 AM - Re: Auxiliary Fuel Tanks (Jill Gernetzke)
3. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Auxiliary Fuel Tanks (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Extra Fuel (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 09:52 AM - Aux tanks (Jill Gernetzke)
6. 11:48 AM - SNF Near Misses (Craig Payne)
7. 11:57 AM - Re: Extra Fuel (Tim Gagnon)
8. 12:54 PM - Re: Re: Extra Fuel (Roger Baker)
9. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: Extra Fuel (adrian a.hale)
10. 02:12 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (Roger Kemp M.D.)
11. 06:30 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 08:39 PM - SNF Near Miss (Stan French)
13. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: Extra Fuel (Roger Baker)
14. 09:29 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (KingCJ6@aol.com)
Message 1
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We used to build and install the Schell's Tank which went behind the Aft
seat.
They held about 12-14 gallons at an installed price of $4500.
They're a bugger of a tank to build and a real pain in the butt to deal
with afterwards.
To say that they're a tight fit is an understatement and
removing/re-installing them every year to inspect the plane added about
2 hours to the inspection bill.
Whereas this was a functional system, wrapping it around the Aft seat
/and/ the main and emergency bottles just doesn't seem like the safest
alternative.
We've played around with alternate designs of drop tanks, tip tanks, and
the like.
We have determined that the safest, most cost effective way to achieve
additional fuel without sacrificing the flight characteristics of the
plane is to create a wet wing in the leading edge of each wing.
This gives about 9 gallons per side which is pumped into each main tank.
They also make a great smoke tank.
We're offering this modification for around $6000
Best regards,
Cliff Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Actually, its the guy who used to work with Carl Schels who designed
> the behind-the-rear-seat tank. He's in Eagle River, WI.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Kemp M.D."
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Extra Fuel
>
>
>> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Stu's Yak has a centerline tank from a guy up in North Dakota I
>> believe. Stu
>> can answer that question for sure. His email is firstflysqd@aol.com.
>> Doc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
>> Mark G
>> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:32 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Extra Fuel
>>
>> Point,
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Is your friend sure it was a YAK? The Sukhoi 26 came stock with the
>> exact tank you are describing.
>>
>> Just a thought,
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> captaindonhopkin@aol.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:06
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Extra Fuel
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Great shots, thanks. Sorry I could see everyone at S&F, had to travel
>> and work all week to pay the rent :-)
>>
>> I heard from a friend that one of the Yaks had a single bomb like tank
>> hanging under the fuselage. It gave him maybe another hour or so in the
>> air. I've been wondering how to add fuel tanks to my Yak. Dennis sent
>> me a link to some down under company that had rocket like pods but I
>> have lost the link. Any ideas? Thanks.
>>
>> Captain Don Hopkin
>> N6868Y
>> captaindonhopkin@aol.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary Fuel Tanks |
Group,
The fuel tank under the belly was manufactured by Roger Shaddick at
Noble Aviation 715-477-0719
I am the U.S. broker for the auxiliary fuel tanks manufactured in
Australia by Red Star Aviation. The kit is $4,000 USD plus shipping
from Australia. They mount under the main tanks and hold 10 gallons
each side. There is no
modification to the airframe or the existing fuel system to make the
installation. After the first fit up and install, removal and
reinstall is about 15 minutes each. Lindsay's kit is the best solution
I have seen, so far. (You can see these tanks on our website at
www.m-14p.com under "dealerships".)
There is also the wrap around tank that goes behind the back seater. I
don't like this set up, as it is a mechanic's nightmare. How do you
inspect back there??
We did custom installation of 3 small rubber bladders in each wing for
a customer, years ago. The added capacity was between 30 - 40 gallons.
It was A LOT of work and cost around $10K, as I recall.
I have another customer that built a custom smoke oil/ferry fuel tank
that bolts into the rear seat position, after removing the seat.
If there are any other kits out there, I 'd like to know.
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Incorporated
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417
(928)-681-4400
Fax(928)681-4404
www.m-14p.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary Fuel Tanks |
The under-wing tanks (I call them napalm tanks) that Jill sells are THE best
solution out there today. By far! And they look good too! They add 45
liters per side (about 1.5 hours total time to the Yak 52) and do not affect
the CG of the airplane because they are directly on the CG.
I personally have one of the original Carl Schels designed
behind-the-rear-seat tanks which adds about 14.5 gallons of gas. As Jill
says, it is a mechanics nightmare! Sometimes I think it would be easier to
cut the fuselage in half just behind the rear seat than to remove the tank
for inspection. And that includes having to remove the tank just to pull
out the air tanks.
Pay attention to what Jill is saying because she knows of what she speaks.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jill Gernetzke" <jill@m-14p.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:36 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auxiliary Fuel Tanks
>
> Group,
>
> The fuel tank under the belly was manufactured by Roger Shaddick at Noble
> Aviation 715-477-0719
>
> I am the U.S. broker for the auxiliary fuel tanks manufactured in
> Australia by Red Star Aviation. The kit is $4,000 USD plus shipping from
> Australia. They mount under the main tanks and hold 10 gallons each side.
> There is no
> modification to the airframe or the existing fuel system to make the
> installation. After the first fit up and install, removal and reinstall
> is about 15 minutes each. Lindsay's kit is the best solution I have seen,
> so far. (You can see these tanks on our website at www.m-14p.com under
> "dealerships".)
>
> There is also the wrap around tank that goes behind the back seater. I
> don't like this set up, as it is a mechanic's nightmare. How do you
> inspect back there??
>
> We did custom installation of 3 small rubber bladders in each wing for a
> customer, years ago. The added capacity was between 30 - 40 gallons. It
> was A LOT of work and cost around $10K, as I recall.
>
> I have another customer that built a custom smoke oil/ferry fuel tank that
> bolts into the rear seat position, after removing the seat.
>
> If there are any other kits out there, I 'd like to know.
>
>
> Jill Gernetzke
> M-14P, Incorporated
> 4905 Flightline Drive
> Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417
> (928)-681-4400
> Fax(928)681-4404
> www.m-14p.com
>
>
>
Message 4
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Now that's a neat idea Cliff! ie: leading edge wet wing tanks.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Coy" <cliff@gesoco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Extra Fuel
>
> We used to build and install the Schell's Tank which went behind the Aft
> seat.
> They held about 12-14 gallons at an installed price of $4500.
>
> They're a bugger of a tank to build and a real pain in the butt to deal
> with afterwards.
> To say that they're a tight fit is an understatement and
> removing/re-installing them every year to inspect the plane added about 2
> hours to the inspection bill.
>
> Whereas this was a functional system, wrapping it around the Aft seat
> /and/ the main and emergency bottles just doesn't seem like the safest
> alternative.
>
> We've played around with alternate designs of drop tanks, tip tanks, and
> the like.
> We have determined that the safest, most cost effective way to achieve
> additional fuel without sacrificing the flight characteristics of the
> plane is to create a wet wing in the leading edge of each wing.
> This gives about 9 gallons per side which is pumped into each main tank.
>
> They also make a great smoke tank.
>
> We're offering this modification for around $6000
>
> Best regards,
> Cliff Coy
> Border Air Ltd.
> 629 Airport Rd.
> Swanton, VT 05488
> 802-868-2822
>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
>> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>>
>> Actually, its the guy who used to work with Carl Schels who designed the
>> behind-the-rear-seat tank. He's in Eagle River, WI.
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Kemp M.D."
>> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:52 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Extra Fuel
>>
>>
>>> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>> Stu's Yak has a centerline tank from a guy up in North Dakota I believe.
>>> Stu
>>> can answer that question for sure. His email is firstflysqd@aol.com.
>>> Doc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
>>> Mark G
>>> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:32 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Extra Fuel
>>>
>>> Point,
>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> Is your friend sure it was a YAK? The Sukhoi 26 came stock with the
>>> exact tank you are describing.
>>>
>>> Just a thought,
>>>
>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>> captaindonhopkin@aol.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:06
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Yak-List: Extra Fuel[LashBack]
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> Great shots, thanks. Sorry I could see everyone at S&F, had to travel
>>> and work all week to pay the rent :-)
>>>
>>> I heard from a friend that one of the Yaks had a single bomb like tank
>>> hanging under the fuselage. It gave him maybe another hour or so in the
>>> air. I've been wondering how to add fuel tanks to my Yak. Dennis sent
>>> me a link to some down under company that had rocket like pods but I
>>> have lost the link. Any ideas? Thanks.
>>>
>>> Captain Don Hopkin
>>> N6868Y
>>> captaindonhopkin@aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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Group,
I need to clarify how to view the auxiliary fuel tanks on our website:
www.m-14p.com Go to "Dealerships" and then to "Red Star Aviation".
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Incorporated
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417
(928)-681-4400
Fax(928)681-4404
www.m-14p.com
Message 6
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I was waiting for others to post this, but .... During the staging flight up to
ZPH from LAL There were 2 serious near misses encountered by our formations.
Zephyrhills is an uncontrolled field just NNW of Lakeland with cheap gas, plenty
of parking, and a CTAF of 123.075. Being a local it common to hear folks broadcasting
on Plant City 123.0 for ZPH. Not sure that happened during incident
#1 but perhaps.
There are 2 runways, 4-22 and 18-36 that meet at the NW end. Left traffic on both
due to skydiving ops on the SE side. GA traffic often uses 4-22 as the skydivers
claim to "own" 18-36. No problems with skydive ops this year though. Wind
was 340 degrees.
#1) An RPA 4-ship breaks for 36 and Lead initiates a go-around. At the same time
a Mooney departs NORAD on 4; you guessed it, one of our guys just about hooked
left into Mooney but happened to spot the developing mid-air about 50 feet
short of disaster. Said aviator drives big people haulers for a living and has
great SA.
#2) Inbound RPA 4-ship breaks up into a solo and 3-ship when Lead (me) makes a
precautionary landing on 36 due to high oil temp. Mucho inbound traffic to the
airport. I taxi in and monitor the airborne arguement over which runway is in
use. As the 3-ship breaks for 04 and I hear and see a Cherokee turn final, he
has no traffic callouts. At the same time I see my Deputy lead arc in on final
on a vector that would neatly place the CJ-6 directly on the Cherokee. I call
for the go-around and the Cherokee never sees (or understands) what just happened.
Prevention:
1) Stay away from busy, uncontrolled airfields near major fly-ins. Use towered
fields if possible.
2) Failing that, do NOT use a conventional 360 break as lots of GA folks don't
know what that is. My thought is to break 90 degrees onto downwind from over the
top and take interval on base-final. Another technique could be to break downfield,
rather than on the Numbers so that a downwind entry is acomplished and
interval set.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
.
Message 7
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Tom Johnsons former Yak-52 has a centerline external tank.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109229#109229
Message 8
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I have one of the Roger Shaddick built centerline tanks sitting in my
hangar. I was, a couple of years ago, up at Shaddick's place in
Wisc. and I seem to remember him saying that he made only 7 of these
tanks and is not making them anymore.
Anyway, it's 16 gallons with integral fuel pump. It plumbs into the
system via the center tank drain valve...and has another system drain
in the true low point in the system with it mounted to the airplane.
Mine is brand new and never mounted on an airplane....since I sold my
52 to go into the Sukhoi.
It is, as Tim Gagnon says, the same as is on Tom Johnson's former 52.
Roger
Baker__________________________________________________________________
On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Tim Gagnon wrote:
>
> Tom Johnsons former Yak-52 has a centerline external tank.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109229#109229
>
>
Message 9
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What do you want for it?
On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Roger Baker wrote:
>
> I have one of the Roger Shaddick built centerline tanks sitting in my
> hangar. I was, a couple of years ago, up at Shaddick's place in Wisc.
> and I seem to remember him saying that he made only 7 of these tanks
> and is not making them anymore.
>
> Anyway, it's 16 gallons with integral fuel pump. It plumbs into the
> system via the center tank drain valve...and has another system drain
> in the true low point in the system with it mounted to the airplane.
> Mine is brand new and never mounted on an airplane....since I sold my
> 52 to go into the Sukhoi.
>
> It is, as Tim Gagnon says, the same as is on Tom Johnson's former 52.
>
> Roger
> Baker__________________________________________________________________
> On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Tim Gagnon wrote:
>
>>
>> Tom Johnsons former Yak-52 has a centerline external tank.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109229#109229
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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Craig,
You have broached a point that has been a hot topic debate at our 08A EAA
meetings for the last 6-7 months. We have opted for the 500 ft above GA
pattern altitude and a mid field or departure end break into an uncontrolled
field. That is what Wetumpka has. We have had a real experience trying to
educate the uneducatable spam canners at 08A on overhead breaks. Not to say
that some of our do not have trouble understanding what 2 g 60 deg. Of bank
for 180 degrees means too but the Spammers really are out in left field on
the topic. Do not try to educate them on what those neat military sounding
radio calls really mean either. Like "YAK lead left Base, Gear, Pressure,
Full Stop __Runway!" Abeam the numbers and on the Perch causes their eyes to
glaze over when having discussions on overhead patterns at the EAA meetings.
Those are illegal patterns did you not know?! Only square patterns can be
flown at civilian airfields. Have you not had that lecture yet!
The midfield or departure end break gives lead a little longer to scan the
airspace for the spammer on 3 mile downwind, final or the infamous 45 degree
downwind entry at 5 miles out. True we could stop operating out of
uncontrolled airfields, but that is not practical. We could stop doing
overheads. That would thrill the Spam Canners to no end.
While on this subject of potential mid airs, climbing rejoins over the
airfield should probably be avoided if at all possible too. Our experience
at 08A has been the no matter how hard you try to educate the local populus
of spammers, they are continuing to pull on the runway and departing as soon
as you start to roll. So by the time you are turning back to 270 deg they
are at or just below your altitude over the departure end of the field. This
has happened on a couple of occassions.
The infamous base turn final runway incursion is another point of contention
for the YAKs vs Spammers. Should we use 3 mile base turns as they do with
what they call "final" really being a 3 mile straight in?
My point is Mil type Ops and Civilian square corner ops are going to be a
point of contention where ever we operate. Even at a towered airport. We
just have to us our heads. Keep them on a swivle, spend most of our
transient time from TO to the Area, and on RTB in Route or Tactical for
maximum flight SA. Consider closing it up on 2-3 mile final or do a tactical
entry into a busy airfield so all in the flight can use their eyeballs to
scan the sky and clear flight paths. I know that tactical entry stuff does
not look as neat as the 4 ship fingertip but it could keep us from being
famous in the wrong FAA way.
Bottomline is it is lead's responsibility to clear the flight path for the
entire flight. That is a daunting job for some of the neophyte flight leads.
SA comes with time and experience. It never comes to some though. After all,
we must remember our hobby is the only hobby with a self cleaning oven.
Doc
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
I was waiting for others to post this, but .... During the staging flight up
to ZPH from LAL There were 2 serious near misses encountered by our
formations. Zephyrhills is an uncontrolled field just NNW of Lakeland with
cheap gas, plenty of parking, and a CTAF of 123.075. Being a local it common
to hear folks broadcasting on Plant City 123.0 for ZPH. Not sure that
happened during incident #1 but perhaps.
There are 2 runways, 4-22 and 18-36 that meet at the NW end. Left traffic on
both due to skydiving ops on the SE side. GA traffic often uses 4-22 as the
skydivers claim to "own" 18-36. No problems with skydive ops this year
though. Wind was 340 degrees.
#1) An RPA 4-ship breaks for 36 and Lead initiates a go-around. At the same
time a Mooney departs NORAD on 4; you guessed it, one of our guys just about
hooked left into Mooney but happened to spot the developing mid-air about 50
feet short of disaster. Said aviator drives big people haulers for a living
and has great SA.
#2) Inbound RPA 4-ship breaks up into a solo and 3-ship when Lead (me) makes
a precautionary landing on 36 due to high oil temp. Mucho inbound traffic to
the airport. I taxi in and monitor the airborne arguement over which runway
is in use. As the 3-ship breaks for 04 and I hear and see a Cherokee turn
final, he has no traffic callouts. At the same time I see my Deputy lead arc
in on final on a vector that would neatly place the CJ-6 directly on the
Cherokee. I call for the go-around and the Cherokee never sees (or
understands) what just happened.
Prevention:
1) Stay away from busy, uncontrolled airfields near major fly-ins. Use
towered fields if possible.
2) Failing that, do NOT use a conventional 360 break as lots of GA folks
don't know what that is. My thought is to break 90 degrees onto downwind
from over the top and take interval on base-final. Another technique could
be to break downfield, rather than on the Numbers so that a downwind entry
is acomplished and interval set.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
.
Message 11
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I was not there, (WHICH IS A BIG DEAL AND I ADMIT IT) but I have a
question and comment based on the account of this event.
1. At an untowered airport that is selling cheap gas in very close
proximity to a major event such as Sun & Fun (and yes, I have been to
and landed at just about every strip within 50 miles of Lakeland), why
is it necessary to enter any kind of break at all?
2. To Wit and more importantly: Why is it necessary to bring a 4 ship
OR a 3 ship formation into a pattern populated by the totally
uninitiated, combined with possible sky-divers at a field with two
runways that just scream for conflict?
I stand ready to take the heat and flames from any and all involved, but
I am going to stick my big NON-FAST-CARD-QUALIFIED rear end out and say
this: "Mr. Aviator that drives big people haulers for a living and has
great SA" should not have had to exercise it in the first place.
Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT" statement would have been:
KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single person in as a standard
single ship, flying into a standard airport, following standard airport
procedures so as to have a standard outcome that didn't involve the use
of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking MID-AIR COLLISION.
One of the things any formation lead should know is not only how not to
lead his flight into a dangerous situation, but also when to kiss his
wingman off and KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION FLIGHT COMPLETELY.
If such a situation as you just described does not meet the call to do
that, even with 20/20 hindsight, then my retired military ass does not
know what does.
Sorry to not agree with your assessment Craig, but also respecting your
willingness to tell the story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 14:47
Subject: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
I was waiting for others to post this, but .... During the staging
flight up to ZPH from LAL There were 2 serious near misses encountered
by our formations. Zephyrhills is an uncontrolled field just NNW of
Lakeland with cheap gas, plenty of parking, and a CTAF of 123.075. Being
a local it common to hear folks broadcasting on Plant City 123.0 for
ZPH. Not sure that happened during incident #1 but perhaps.
There are 2 runways, 4-22 and 18-36 that meet at the NW end. Left
traffic on both due to skydiving ops on the SE side. GA traffic often
uses 4-22 as the skydivers claim to "own" 18-36. No problems with
skydive ops this year though. Wind was 340 degrees.
#1) An RPA 4-ship breaks for 36 and Lead initiates a go-around. At the
same time a Mooney departs NORAD on 4; you guessed it, one of our guys
just about hooked left into Mooney but happened to spot the developing
mid-air about 50 feet short of disaster. Said aviator drives big people
haulers for a living and has great SA.
#2) Inbound RPA 4-ship breaks up into a solo and 3-ship when Lead (me)
makes a precautionary landing on 36 due to high oil temp. Mucho inbound
traffic to the airport. I taxi in and monitor the airborne arguement
over which runway is in use. As the 3-ship breaks for 04 and I hear and
see a Cherokee turn final, he has no traffic callouts. At the same time
I see my Deputy lead arc in on final on a vector that would neatly place
the CJ-6 directly on the Cherokee. I call for the go-around and the
Cherokee never sees (or understands) what just happened.
Prevention:
1) Stay away from busy, uncontrolled airfields near major fly-ins. Use
towered fields if possible.
2) Failing that, do NOT use a conventional 360 break as lots of GA folks
don't know what that is. My thought is to break 90 degrees onto downwind
from over the top and take interval on base-final. Another technique
could be to break downfield, rather than on the Numbers so that a
downwind entry is acomplished and interval set.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
.
Message 12
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MARK IS RIGHT...
..I AM NEITHER FAS, NOR MILITARY, NOR A BIG BUS DRIVER. I AM HOWEVER
74 YEARS AND BEEN FLYING MOST OF IT. I GO IN AND OUT OF SMALL AIRPORTS
ALL THE TIME AND I AM FRIGHTENED AND ON GUARD AND ANNOUNCING AS
FREQUENTLY AS MY DRY MOUTH WILL ALLOW. OVER 10,000 HOURS IN 50 YEARS,
AND ALL NEAR MISSES HAVE BEEN @ OR NEAR UNCONTOLLED AIRPORTS...LAST ONE
WAS WITH A SENIOR MY OWN AGE WHO EXPLAINED WHEN CONFRONTED ON THE GROUND
WAS USING A 12 YEAR OLD CHART WITH THE WRONG FREQUENCY. GIVE ME IFR
AND CONTROLLED AIRPORTS ANY DAY...
Stan French
Message 13
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Hi Adrian,
At this point, it's not for sale. Sorry, I should have
mentioned that in my previous post.
Roger___________________________________________________________________
_________
On Apr 25, 2007, at 1:48 PM, adrian a.hale wrote:
>
> What do you want for it?
> On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Roger Baker wrote:
>
>>
>> I have one of the Roger Shaddick built centerline tanks sitting in
>> my hangar. I was, a couple of years ago, up at Shaddick's place
>> in Wisc. and I seem to remember him saying that he made only 7 of
>> these tanks and is not making them anymore.
>>
>> Anyway, it's 16 gallons with integral fuel pump. It plumbs into
>> the system via the center tank drain valve...and has another
>> system drain in the true low point in the system with it mounted
>> to the airplane. Mine is brand new and never mounted on an
>> airplane....since I sold my 52 to go into the Sukhoi.
>>
>> It is, as Tim Gagnon says, the same as is on Tom Johnson's former 52.
>>
>> Roger
>> Baker________________________________________________________________
>> __
>> On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Tim Gagnon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Tom Johnsons former Yak-52 has a centerline external tank.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109229#109229
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: SNF Near Misses |
Doc - some very good points. I assume you were joking though, about the
legality of overheads or non-standard patterns at GA airports -- I can't fi
nd
any FAR's addressing the issue.
Dave
#########
"Those are illegal patterns did you not know?! Only square patterns can be
flown at civilian airfields. Have you not had that lecture yet! "
#########
In a message dated 4/25/2007 2:15:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
viperdoc@mindspring.com writes:
Craig,
You have broached a point that has been a hot topic debate at our 08A EAA
meetings for the last 6-7 months. We have opted for the 500 ft above GA pat
tern
altitude and a mid field or departure end break into an uncontrolled field.
That is what Wetumpka has. We have had a real experience trying to educate
the uneducatable spam canners at 08A on overhead breaks. Not to say that so
me
of our do not have trouble understanding what 2 g 60 deg. Of bank for 180
degrees means too but the Spammers really are out in left field on the topi
c. Do
not try to educate them on what those neat military sounding radio calls
really mean either. Like =9CYAK lead left Base, Gear, Pressure, Full
Stop __Runway!=9D
Abeam the numbers and on the Perch causes their eyes to glaze over when
having discussions on overhead patterns at the EAA meetings. Those are ille
gal
patterns did you not know?! Only square patterns can be flown at civilian
airfields. Have you not had that lecture yet!
The midfield or departure end break gives lead a little longer to scan the
airspace for the spammer on 3 mile downwind, final or the infamous 45 degre
e
downwind entry at 5 miles out. True we could stop operating out of
uncontrolled airfields, but that is not practical. We could stop doing over
heads. That
would thrill the Spam Canners to no end.
While on this subject of potential mid airs, climbing rejoins over the
airfield should probably be avoided if at all possible too. Our experience
at 08A
has been the no matter how hard you try to educate the local populus of
spammers, they are continuing to pull on the runway and departing as soon a
s you
start to roll. So by the time you are turning back to 270 deg they are at o
r
just below your altitude over the departure end of the field. This has
happened on a couple of occassions.
The infamous base turn final runway incursion is another point of contentio
n
for the YAKs vs Spammers. Should we use 3 mile base turns as they do with
what they call =9Cfinal=9D really being a 3 mile straight in?
My point is Mil type Ops and Civilian square corner ops are going to be a
point of contention where ever we operate. Even at a towered airport. We ju
st
have to us our heads. Keep them on a swivle, spend most of our transient ti
me
from TO to the Area, and on RTB in Route or Tactical for maximum flight SA.
Consider closing it up on 2-3 mile final or do a tactical entry into a busy
airfield so all in the flight can use their eyeballs to scan the sky and cl
ear
flight paths. I know that tactical entry stuff does not look as neat as the
4
ship fingertip but it could keep us from being famous in the wrong FAA way.
Bottomline is it is lead=99s responsibility to clear the flight path
for the
entire flight. That is a daunting job for some of the neophyte flight leads
.
SA comes with time and experience. It never comes to some though. After all
,
we must remember our hobby is the only hobby with a self cleaning oven.
Doc
____________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
I was waiting for others to post this, but .... During the staging flight u
p
to ZPH from LAL There were 2 serious near misses encountered by our
formations. Zephyrhills is an uncontrolled field just NNW of Lakeland with
cheap gas,
plenty of parking, and a CTAF of 123.075. Being a local it common to hear
folks broadcasting on Plant City 123.0 for ZPH. Not sure that happened dur
ing
incident #1 but perhaps.
There are 2 runways, 4-22 and 18-36 that meet at the NW end. Left traffic o
n
both due to skydiving ops on the SE side. GA traffic often uses 4-22 as the
skydivers claim to "own" 18-36. No problems with skydive ops this year
though. Wind was 340 degrees.
#1) An RPA 4-ship breaks for 36 and Lead initiates a go-around. At the same
time a Mooney departs NORAD on 4; you guessed it, one of our guys just abou
t
hooked left into Mooney but happened to spot the developing mid-air about 5
0
feet short of disaster. Said aviator drives big people haulers for a living
and has great SA.
#2) Inbound RPA 4-ship breaks up into a solo and 3-ship when Lead (me) make
s
a precautionary landing on 36 due to high oil temp. Mucho inbound traffic t
o
the airport. I taxi in and monitor the airborne arguement over which runway
is in use. As the 3-ship breaks for 04 and I hear and see a Cherokee turn
final, he has no traffic callouts. At the same time I see my Deputy lead ar
c in
on final on a vector that would neatly place the CJ-6 directly on the
Cherokee. I call for the go-around and the Cherokee never sees (or understa
nds) what
just happened.
Prevention:
1) Stay away from busy, uncontrolled airfields near major fly-ins. Use
towered fields if possible.
2) Failing that, do NOT use a conventional 360 break as lots of GA folks
don't know what that is. My thought is to break 90 degrees onto downwind fr
om
over the top and take interval on base-final. Another technique could be to
break downfield, rather than on the Numbers so that a downwind entry is
acomplished and interval set.
Craig Payne
_cpayne@joimail.com_ (mailto:cpayne@joimail.com)
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