Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:53 AM - becker radios (Drew Blahnick)
2. 02:59 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 04/26/07 (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
3. 04:33 AM - Re: becker radios (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 07:02 AM - 2 cents on uncontrolled fields (Jill Gernetzke)
5. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: SNF Near Misses (Genzlinger, Reade)
6. 07:35 AM - Re: 2 cents on uncontrolled fields (John A. Nielsen)
7. 08:39 AM - SNF Near Miss Radio ops (Roger Kemp M.D.)
8. 12:43 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (steve and donna hanshew)
9. 01:08 PM - Re: Forms and patterns (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 04:13 PM - YAK-50 Prop Question (Yak Pilot)
11. 04:26 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (Ai Bao)
Message 1
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Folks,
Anyone have those small Becker radios in their yak/chang? Seems I used to hear
things like "weak on transmission" , no stby monitoring capability, etc.
If you have any Becker experience, can you email me off list (I may not get the
yak list on the road), considering installing a second comm in this airplane
and like the small front end space of the becker, wondering if current set
gets any better reviews...
Thanks,
Drew
Drew A. Blahnick
RPA President
www.flyredstar.org
V.954.636.7560
F.305.675.3940
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 04/26/07 |
In a message dated 4/27/2007 3:01:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
yak-list@matronics.com writes:
Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT" statement would have been:
KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single person in as a standard
single ship, flying into a standard airport, following standard airport
procedures so as to have a standard outcome that didn't involve the use
of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking MID-AIR COLLISION
I tend to agree with this. Being a low time 100 and something hour
pilot, I may not know ALL of the ins and outs that you more experienced pilots
know, especially any non standard (ie non GA flight school)
approaches/procedures. I was taught, once you land, get to taxi speed, and stay
there until you
park (unless tower specifically asks otherwise & even then you are still the
PIC). Sounds like your Cessna pilot was following the same procedures that I
was taught. As far as the large pattern he flew, again, maybe he was a low
time pilot. Don't assume everyone is Sierra Hotel, and looking for the fastest
way down. Maybe this guy is out for a "Sunday drive"? That's no more wrong of
him, than for you to use a standard military type approach or formation
flight at a GA airport(if that's what happened).
Boyce
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: becker radios |
Drew,
Take a look at the relatively new X-COM VHF radio.
http://www.mcp.com.au/xcom760/ Same footprint as the Becker, which is
also a fine radio. But the X-COM has two major advantages besides the
fact that it is $300 less expensive. 1 - You can monitor the standby
frequency, which most people consider a big benefit. Especially if you
only have one comm radio. 2 - The built-in intercom has VOX key
capability which is a real benefit in a tandem seat airplane where you
might have a young person in the back seat that would have difficulty
with a PTT intercom. Another nice feature is the remote head which can
be installed in the rear cockpit.
We'll be installing the X-COM radios AND remote heads in the CJ's being
overhauled at our Lithuanian overhaul factory.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Blahnick
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 4:52 AM
Subject: Yak-List: becker radios
Folks,
Anyone have those small Becker radios in their yak/chang? Seems I
used to hear things like "weak on transmission" , no stby monitoring
capability, etc.
If you have any Becker experience, can you email me off list (I may
not get the yak list on the road), considering installing a second comm
in this airplane and like the small front end space of the becker,
wondering if current set gets any better reviews...
Thanks,
Drew
Drew A. Blahnick
RPA President
www.flyredstar.org
V.954.636.7560
F.305.675.3940
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 4
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| Subject: | 2 cents on uncontrolled fields |
Group,
I have been reading the discussion on the near misses this morning.
First off, I am not military. I am not a high time pilot either. My
first solo flight was into Bradley Sky Ranch in North Pole, AK - a
gravel airstrip, uncontrolled field. As I was landing my Aeronca Chief
with no radios or lights, there was another aircraft landing the other
way. Having no option for a go around, I chopped power, landed and
pulled the airplane off into the weeds. When I worked out at Gesoco in
Swanton, we had a group of ultra-lighters known as the "Fright Boys".
One had to ALWAYS be on alert. Every field I flew off of in Florida
was uncontrolled: Kay Larkin, Eagle's Nest, Flagler. I can assure you
that "spammers" do not know what you guys are talking about. My follow
up is "Why should they???". I may piss some people off here, but I see
a level of arrogance in thinking that "civilians" or "Spammers" must
tow the line when you are in town. I am trying to play devil's
advocate, here. If a group of you travel to Shakhty, Russia, go to the
outdoor market and ask for a fresh loaf of rye bread in English, should
that little old lady with the babushka on her head be expected to
understand you? As with any good relationship, clear communication is
the key. These "spammers" right or wrong were probably doing what they
always do at that airport. I think a bit of prudence could go a long
way. I think Mark has made some very good points.
The other night we had a deputy speaking to a citizen's group. He made
the comment about "you civilians". Carl quickly asked him what branch
of the military the sheriff's department belonged to. The deputy's
response is that was they way they were trained to think. Joe Citizen
does not see it that way and he is correct. I don't think you are
doing anyone a service by looking down your noses at "spammers".
Remember, you were there once and probably did some pretty dumb things.
In conclusion, I would like to ask what would have been the probable
legal outcome had there been a midair in either situation? Who would
have been at fault? How much liability does the group and individuals
have in this situation? Is there any legal counsel with RPA that
would like to offer up an opinion?
Jill
M-14P, Incorporated
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417
(928)-681-4400
Fax(928)681-4404
www.m-14p.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: SNF Near Misses |
Thanks Mark, Craig, Jim and others for putting this out for analysis -
as a recently minted wingman (last year) I am processing the details
based upon how and what I was taught. The one thing that jumps out is
that there has been no reference to HEFOE. It seems to me that the
NORDO situation could have been addressed with what I understand is a
basic formation process (hand signals).
Making the transition from primarily aerobatic hours in the Yak to where
it's just you getting cozy with 3 of your best friends brought the whole
process of discipline and procedure to a new level. The precision of
competition can very nicely be adapted to formation but the process of
formation flying requires that we adhere to that process. At least that
is the mantra I'm hearing from those who were willing to be GIBs for me
(Mike, Charlie, Steve, Marty...). I hope I'm not oversimplifying since
it seems to me that the simplicity of the processes involved in
formation flying in and of themselves provide for a more than reasonable
safety margin.
Reade Genzlinger
Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation
mailto:readeg@cairnwood.com
215.914.0370
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: SNF Near Misses
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
My advance apologies for this epistle,
Sorry Craig, but......
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 2 cents on uncontrolled fields |
Very accurate observation Jill. When in unfamiliar uncontrolled
airports and hear an IFR practicing pilot call a waypoint that is only
published in the approach plate, I ask the pilot to reference position
from approach end of intended runway. "Inbound on the ILS Rwy 22 at
MAGGS" means nothing to a VFR pilot in the area, but "over the tank
farms at 2000 feet on 3 mile final to rwy 22" tells all were to look.
John Nielsen
Jill Gernetzke wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> I have been reading the discussion on the near misses this morning.
> First off, I am not military. I am not a high time pilot either. My
> first solo flight was into Bradley Sky Ranch in North Pole, AK - a
> gravel airstrip, uncontrolled field. As I was landing my Aeronca Chief
> with no radios or lights, there was another aircraft landing the other
> way. Having no option for a go around, I chopped power, landed and
> pulled the airplane off into the weeds. When I worked out at Gesoco in
> Swanton, we had a group of ultra-lighters known as the "Fright Boys".
> One had to ALWAYS be on alert. Every field I flew off of in Florida was
> uncontrolled: Kay Larkin, Eagle's Nest, Flagler. I can assure you that
> "spammers" do not know what you guys are talking about. My follow up is
> "Why should they???". I may piss some people off here, but I see a
> level of arrogance in thinking that "civilians" or "Spammers" must tow
> the line when you are in town. I am trying to play devil's advocate,
> here. If a group of you travel to Shakhty, Russia, go to the outdoor
> market and ask for a fresh loaf of rye bread in English, should that
> little old lady with the babushka on her head be expected to understand
> you? As with any good relationship, clear communication is the key.
> These "spammers" right or wrong were probably doing what they always do
> at that airport. I think a bit of prudence could go a long way. I
> think Mark has made some very good points.
>
> The other night we had a deputy speaking to a citizen's group. He made
> the comment about "you civilians". Carl quickly asked him what branch
> of the military the sheriff's department belonged to. The deputy's
> response is that was they way they were trained to think. Joe Citizen
> does not see it that way and he is correct. I don't think you are doing
> anyone a service by looking down your noses at "spammers". Remember,
> you were there once and probably did some pretty dumb things.
>
> In conclusion, I would like to ask what would have been the probable
> legal outcome had there been a midair in either situation? Who would
> have been at fault? How much liability does the group and individuals
> have in this situation? Is there any legal counsel with RPA that would
> like to offer up an opinion?
>
>
> Jill
> M-14P, Incorporated
> 4905 Flightline Drive
> Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417
> (928)-681-4400
> Fax(928)681-4404
> www.m-14p.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | SNF Near Miss Radio ops |
Guys,
I know this is getting to be a pretty dusty dead horse but..I did not see
anything mentioned about the NORDO procedures for getting the wingman back
on freq or to confirm that the wingie was truly NORDO not just lost in
space.
Did lead rock 2 in and give him the hand signals for Nordo and attempt to
get him back on freq. Did 2 give the HEFOE signals for NORDO while in
fingertip so Lead could verify he was truly NORDO?
If a flight member was truly NORDO, the lead should have cleared off the
other element to do their own element recovery and keep 2 with him. Lead
should have lead 2 into the pattern clearing the flight paths of both
aircraft and executing the necessary radio calls for both aircraft.
Announcing to all on freq or the tower if it exist that 2 is NORDO. They fly
a closed pattern with lead giving the lead to 2 on downwind and flying chase
for 2 through the base turn and on final again being the parrot for 2 making
all the radio calls and helping with clearing the airspace to get 2 in. The
other option is fly the straight in with lead in chase position making the
radio calls. Not to practical in the uncontrolled environment though. You
have to clear the airspace for the injured or NORDO bird. This incidently is
how we should treat a injured bird with other mechanical problems. If 2
really has a problem, then lead should offer lead to the aircraft with the
problem and fly backup for the bent airplane. Backing him up on the check
list, being an additional lookout, backing up the navigation, and making the
necessary radio calls. This obviously is not all done while in fingertip.
Anyway, back to the NORDO A/C, after dropping off 2, then lead flies a
closed pattern for a standard recovery. Would this have helped at Leward,
maybe, I do not know since I was not there.
It just struck me that lead said that he assumed that 2 could hear but not
transmit secondary to the bleed over RF when 2 transmitted off freq. Did 2
give lead the HEFOE signals for NORDO can't transmit (the hand waived up and
down infront of the mouth)? Two, how do you get lead's attention that you
have a problem if lead is not paying attention to his flight for whatever
reason or you realize that this radio is real quit and it should not be. Did
you pull acute to him in fingertip or route and put your fist on the top of
the canopy (on your forehead as stated in the old RPA manual) or waggle your
wings while in acute position if lead can't figure out why you put you fist
up on the top of you canopy or your forehead?
If 2 really could not talk to the flight, then that is cause to KO the
sortie and sort out the problem. Break up the 4 ship into elements
recovering as 2 ships with lead flying chase for the problem bird. A 4 ship
overhead break was probably not the way to have gotten everyone onto the
ground without incident.
Atleast as I remember, that is the way we would bring a problem bird home
that is NORDO or that has a different problem. That is not written in
concrete though. Lead should give the problem bird the opportunity to take
the lead and allow the problem bird the privilage of shaking that lead off
if the problem is such that he has enough to do to just fly the airplane. If
that is the case give him the room and support to manage the problem and RTB
safely. Taking a problem bird into the break may not help anyone out and
lead to worse problems. We do not do that in AF (and I'm sure some will not
want to hear that is the way we did it in the Mil back when..but I said it
anyway to hopefully stimulate some thought on what will save someone's but
one day).
I've already gone through the bent bird routine with a lead that neither
gave the courtesy of offering the lead nor flying chase. Then lead wanted to
fly an ovehead break. Sorry dude, I did not close it up because my engine
liked staying at 70% and did not misfire jaring my eye teeth at that
setting. I just was not real comfortable jokeying the throttle in finger tip
and I really would have liked to have landed first but that discussion was
had after the sortie was over since I landed #2.
Guess we could do a there I was story for the rag on that one also..
Alittle verbose, sorry. Also made with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
Doc
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: SNF Near Misses |
Good God, JT8D's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow.
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
In a message dated 4/26/2007 3:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dhanshew@cinci.rr.com writes:
How about that!. The old guy is still in there kicking! He showed me
a picture of the Y-10. Because it had JT-8 engines, it reminded me of
an early 707.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Pappy,
Guess who is quoted in a Forbes article on China's endeavor to build
the BIG plane. Check it out
China's Large Aircraft Readying For Take-Off
http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/25/boeing-airbus-china-ent-manage-cx_kw_042
5whartonaircraft.html?partner=yahootix
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
In a message dated 4/25/2007 9:32:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
I was there.
This is what happened.
I was number 3 in a three ship.
After briefing we departed LAL in a 3 ship takeoff from rwy 27L.
(link #1 we forgot to brief the ZPH unicom frequency)
After 3 miles we turned north to ZPH.
Lead switched us to 123.075
#2 miss heard and dialed to 123.70 (link #2)
At check in, lead and I could only hear a static reply from #2.
What we heard was frequency bleed over because we were in formation. We
both figured #2 was having a mike problem. (link #3)
ZPH unicom confirmed that runway 36 was in use which matched the
slight wind of about 5 kts.
Lead set us up for an 3 or 4 mile initial runway 36, making all
the calls and stating intentions.
A Cessna 172 called in bound also. At that point he was the only
known traffic in the area. (link #4)
The Cessna entered the left down wind for rwy 36.
Lead set us up for a left 4 second break.
The flight broke and lead fell in line behind the Cessna on the
down wind.
The Cessna proceeds to fly what can only be called a 747 approach
pattern.
Lead and the rest of the flight have normal spacing on the Cessna.
Plenty of room.
On landing the Cessna goes into a slow taxi mood right in the
middle of the runway. (link #5)
The Cessna does not reply to a plea (from me) to clear the runway.
Lead press on until he has no option but execute a missed
approach.
#2 (NORDO) seeing the lead miss does the same for the same reason.
I, #3 do the same. At this point I am about 200 yds to the rear
of #2.
Lead starts a left turn at the departure end of the runway to
reenter the pattern.
#2 (NORDO) starts a left turn to rejoin on lead.
At this point I notice a Moony lifting off on rwy 4, to our left.
This aircraft made no calls over unicom frequency what so ever. (link
#6)
I made a radio call to #2 to watch for the traffic coming from the
left. I, like lead, still assumed he could receive us.
Soon after that call, I can see the projected flight paths of both
aircraft are going to merge. I make a "frantic" call for #2 to "go
down! go down! go down!"
I see his aircraft "respond" by diving under the Moony, not
knowing he never heard my call but he saw the Moony in time to clear.
The rest of the flight was uneventful.
Detailed debriefing ensued.
If this had indeed lead to an accident, you can see braking any of
the links above would have prevented it. The one thing that did was SA
on the part of #2.
Being NORDO in a formation while damn inconvenient need not be
dangerous. That is part of what FAST is about. The poor piloting
skills of the Cessna pilot and the total disregard of the Moony pilot
(no radio calls and not checking for traffic on runway 36 which is in
plain sight.) are links that could have not been changed on our part.
I agree with Mark that at times forgoing formation 360 overhead
arrivals maybe wise, but in this particular case the situation didn't
seem to warrant it. And given with what we knew at the time, I'd most
likely do it again. Knowledge of procedures, practiced handling skills,
attention to equipment, SA, and experience (only gained at making
mistakes) is what makes for safe flight. But than again, I'll take all
the luck I can get.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I was not there, (WHICH IS A BIG DEAL AND I ADMIT IT) but I
have a
question and comment based on the account of this event.
1. At an untowered airport that is selling cheap gas in very
close
proximity to a major event such as Sun & Fun (and yes, I have
been to
and landed at just about every strip within 50 miles of
Lakeland), why
is it necessary to enter any kind of break at all?
2. To Wit and more importantly: Why is it necessary to bring a
4 ship
OR a 3 ship formation into a pattern populated by the totally
uninitiated, combined with possible sky-divers at a field with
two
runways that just scream for conflict?
I stand ready to take the heat and flames from any and all
involved, but
I am going to stick my big NON-FAST-CARD-QUALIFIED rear end out
and say
this: "Mr. Aviator that drives big people haulers for a living
and has
great SA" should not have had to exercise it in the first place.
Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT" statement would have
been:
KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single person in as a
standard
single ship, flying into a standard airport, following standard
airport
procedures so as to have a standard outcome that didn't involve
the use
of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking MID-AIR COLLISION.
One of the things any formation lead should know is not only how
not to
lead his flight into a dangerous situation, but also when to
kiss his
wingman off and KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION FLIGHT COMPLETELY.
If such a situation as you just described does not meet the call
to do
that, even with 20/20 hindsight, then my retired military ass
does not
know what does.
Sorry to not agree with your assessment Craig, but also
respecting your
willingness to tell the story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Payne
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 14:47
To: yak-list
Subject: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
I was waiting for others to post this, but .... During the
staging
flight up to ZPH from LAL There were 2 serious near misses
encountered
by our formations. Zephyrhills is an uncontrolled field just NNW
of
Lakeland with cheap gas, plenty of parking, and a CTAF of
123.075. Being
a local it common to hear folks broadcasting on Plant City 123.0
for
ZPH. Not sure that happened during incident #1 but perhaps.
There are 2 runways, 4-22 and 18-36 that meet at the NW end.
Left
traffic on both due to skydiving ops on the SE side. GA traffic
often
uses 4-22 as the skydivers claim to "own" 18-36. No problems
with
skydive ops this year though. Wind was 340 degrees.
#1) An RPA 4-ship breaks for 36 and Lead initiates a go-around.
At the
same time a Mooney departs NORAD on 4; you guessed it, one of
our guys
just about hooked left into Mooney but happened to spot the
developing
mid-air about 50 feet short of disaster. Said aviator drives big
people
haulers for a living and has great SA.
#2) Inbound RPA 4-ship breaks up into a solo and 3-ship when
Lead (me)
makes a precautionary landing on 36 due to high oil temp. Mucho
inbound
traffic to the airport. I taxi in and monitor the airborne
arguement
over which runway is in use. As the 3-ship breaks for 04 and I
hear and
see a Cherokee turn final, he has no traffic callouts. At the
same time
I see my Deputy lead arc in on final on a vector that would
neatly place
the CJ-6 directly on the Cherokee. I call for the go-around and
the
Cherokee never sees (or understands) what just happened.
Prevention:
1) Stay away from busy, uncontrolled airfields near major
fly-ins. Use
towered fields if possible.
2) Failing that, do NOT use a conventional 360 break as lots of
GA folks
don't know what that is. My thought is to break 90 degrees onto
downwind
from over the top and take interval on base-final. Another
technique
could be to break downfield, rather than on the Numbers so that
a
downwind entry is acomplished and interval set.
Craig es Day --> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
bsp; -->
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Forms and patterns |
Thanks Craig, that is my point exactly. There are indeed times when us
aviators should leave flying strictly to the birds and not force
ourselves into their domain. In all manner of ways.
Here are my recommendations for modifying current techniques. They are
not tongue in cheek. They are honest and straight forward:
1. Military aircraft radios all have TWO receivers built in. One you
dial in the freq. The other is rock bound on GUARD. If COMM is lost, a
transmission in the blind on GUARD usually solves the problem. Civil
aircraft do not have this feature. Thus something is needed to cover
the same circumstance in the same way. Something like a briefed back-up
freq.
2. Hand & Arm signals need to be practiced and used. The word
"assumption" needs to be stricken from formation terminology.
3. When the formation includes more than 2 aircraft, a plan should be
briefed in case someone has a system failure. For example, if anyone
has any kind of problem, the four ship will break up into "something
else". Typically, with a LEAD taking the wingman with the failure right
to the runway, where lead goes around and wingman lands. This is typical
SOP
4. Go Around procedures. Were they briefed? If lead goes around, what
does the rest of the flight do, go around as well? That does not make
much sense. Neither does trying to re-join after a mass go-around at an
uncontrolled field.
5. Thought should be given to modifying procedures for uncontrolled
fields to wit: Briefing that once the aircraft have made the break and
are extended trail at an uncontrolled field where there is no tower that
will clear the whole flight to land, that at that point.......the
formation is over, and each aircraft should revert to standard general
aviation procedures intended for single aircraft landings at an
uncontrolled field. The intent is to land. Not to maintain formation
flight.
I don't think popping smoke is a great idea at an uncontrolled general
aviation airfield, but I could be wrong.
Best Regards,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 21:01
Subject: Yak-List: Forms and patterns
Thanks all for your input but the point on formations could be extended
to the extreme that aviation is strictly for the birds and for us to
watch them from the ground. My post was intended as a heads-up on
modifying current technique for these situations. When flying with NATA
dudes many years ago, popping smoke in the pattern was a good way to
mark a position and configuring T-6's into extended trail for pattern
entry seemed to work well.
>In this case it would seem that only one pilot is "looking for the
>unexpected" and the other three are looking at another aircraft in the
>formation. Or maybe I'm missing something?
What's missing here is understanding that when the flight is configured
into extended trail, 4 sets of eyes are looking and scanning. That was
my suggestion for entering busy airspace. It is the NEXT situation I
worry about, the last was a learning experience to carry forward.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
.
Message 10
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| Subject: | YAK-50 Prop Question |
Looking for some feedback from YAK-50 owners that are lucky enough to be running
3 bladed props.
Except for one Hoffman, most of the folks I have talked to are running MT's.
What I need to know is whether you are running a 250 or a 260 ? Is the 260
so long that wheel landings are a threat to the blades or is there plenty of room?
All comments welcome.
Mark Bitterlich
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil Work
markbitterlich@earthlink.net Home
yakplt@yahoo.com Hanger
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: SNF Near Misses |
And when they did, they made a helluva noise out there
in the swamp where I was watching along with the rest
of the creatures .........
--- steve and donna hanshew <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
wrote:
> Good God, JT8D's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
>
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2007 3:11:29 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time, dhanshew@cinci.rr.com writes:
>
> How about that!. The old guy is still in there
> kicking! He showed me a picture of the Y-10.
> Because it had JT-8 engines, it reminded me of an
> early 707.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
>
> Pappy,
>
> Guess who is quoted in a Forbes article on
> China's endeavor to build the BIG plane. Check it
> out
>
> China's Large Aircraft Readying For Take-Off
>
>
>
http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/25/boeing-airbus-china-ent-manage-cx_kw_0425whartonaircraft.html?partner=yahootix
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses
>
>
> In a message dated 4/25/2007 9:32:20 P.M.
> Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
> writes:
>
>
> I was there.
>
> This is what happened.
>
> I was number 3 in a three ship.
> After briefing we departed LAL in a 3 ship
> takeoff from rwy 27L. (link #1 we forgot to brief
> the ZPH unicom frequency)
> After 3 miles we turned north to ZPH.
> Lead switched us to 123.075
> #2 miss heard and dialed to 123.70 (link #2)
> At check in, lead and I could only hear a
> static reply from #2. What we heard was frequency
> bleed over because we were in formation. We both
> figured #2 was having a mike problem. (link #3)
> ZPH unicom confirmed that runway 36 was in use
> which matched the slight wind of about 5 kts.
> Lead set us up for an 3 or 4 mile initial
> runway 36, making all the calls and stating
> intentions.
> A Cessna 172 called in bound also. At that
> point he was the only known traffic in the area.
> (link #4)
> The Cessna entered the left down wind for rwy
> 36.
> Lead set us up for a left 4 second break.
> The flight broke and lead fell in line behind
> the Cessna on the down wind.
> The Cessna proceeds to fly what can only be
> called a 747 approach pattern.
> Lead and the rest of the flight have normal
> spacing on the Cessna. Plenty of room.
> On landing the Cessna goes into a slow taxi
> mood right in the middle of the runway. (link #5)
> The Cessna does not reply to a plea (from me)
> to clear the runway.
> Lead press on until he has no option but
> execute a missed approach.
> #2 (NORDO) seeing the lead miss does the same
> for the same reason.
> I, #3 do the same. At this point I am about
> 200 yds to the rear of #2.
> Lead starts a left turn at the departure end
> of the runway to reenter the pattern.
> #2 (NORDO) starts a left turn to rejoin on
> lead.
> At this point I notice a Moony lifting off on
> rwy 4, to our left. This aircraft made no calls over
> unicom frequency what so ever. (link #6)
> I made a radio call to #2 to watch for the
> traffic coming from the left. I, like lead, still
> assumed he could receive us.
> Soon after that call, I can see the projected
> flight paths of both aircraft are going to merge. I
> make a "frantic" call for #2 to "go down! go down!
> go down!"
> I see his aircraft "respond" by diving under
> the Moony, not knowing he never heard my call but he
> saw the Moony in time to clear.
> The rest of the flight was uneventful.
> Detailed debriefing ensued.
>
> If this had indeed lead to an accident, you
> can see braking any of the links above would have
> prevented it. The one thing that did was SA on the
> part of #2.
> Being NORDO in a formation while damn
> inconvenient need not be dangerous. That is part of
> what FAST is about. The poor piloting skills of the
> Cessna pilot and the total disregard of the Moony
> pilot (no radio calls and not checking for traffic
> on runway 36 which is in plain sight.) are links
> that could have not been changed on our part.
>
> I agree with Mark that at times forgoing
> formation 360 overhead arrivals maybe wise, but in
> this particular case the situation didn't seem to
> warrant it. And given with what we knew at the time,
> I'd most likely do it again. Knowledge of
> procedures, practiced handling skills, attention to
> equipment, SA, and experience (only gained at making
> mistakes) is what makes for safe flight. But than
> again, I'll take all the luck I can get.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> I was not there, (WHICH IS A BIG DEAL AND I
> ADMIT IT) but I have a
> question and comment based on the account of
> this event.
>
>
> 1. At an untowered airport that is selling
> cheap gas in very close
> proximity to a major event such as Sun & Fun
> (and yes, I have been to
> and landed at just about every strip within
> 50 miles of Lakeland), why
> is it necessary to enter any kind of break
> at all?
>
> 2. To Wit and more importantly: Why is it
> necessary to bring a 4 ship
> OR a 3 ship formation into a pattern
> populated by the totally
> uninitiated, combined with possible
> sky-divers at a field with two
> runways that just scream for conflict?
>
> I stand ready to take the heat and flames
> from any and all involved, but
> I am going to stick my big
> NON-FAST-CARD-QUALIFIED rear end out and say
> this: "Mr. Aviator that drives big people
> haulers for a living and has
> great SA" should not have had to exercise it
> in the first place.
>
> Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT"
> statement would have been:
> KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single
> person in as a standard
> single ship, flying into a standard airport,
> following standard airport
> procedures so as to have a standard outcome
> that didn't involve the use
> of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking
> MID-AIR COLLISION.
>
> One of the things any formation lead should
> know is not only how not to
> lead his flight into a dangerous situation,
> but also when to kiss his
> wingman off and KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION
> FLIGHT COMPLETELY.
>
> If such a situation as you just described
> does not meet the call to do
> that, even with 20/20 hindsight, then my
> retired military ass does not
> know what does.
>
> Sorry to not agree with your assessment
> Craig, but also respecting your
> willingness to tell the story.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
> On
=== message truncated ==
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