---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/27/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:53 AM - becker radios (Drew Blahnick) 2. 02:59 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 04/26/07 (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 3. 04:33 AM - Re: becker radios (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 07:02 AM - 2 cents on uncontrolled fields (Jill Gernetzke) 5. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: SNF Near Misses (Genzlinger, Reade) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: 2 cents on uncontrolled fields (John A. Nielsen) 7. 08:39 AM - SNF Near Miss Radio ops (Roger Kemp M.D.) 8. 12:43 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (steve and donna hanshew) 9. 01:08 PM - Re: Forms and patterns (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 10. 04:13 PM - YAK-50 Prop Question (Yak Pilot) 11. 04:26 PM - Re: SNF Near Misses (Ai Bao) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:24 AM PST US From: Drew Blahnick Subject: Yak-List: becker radios Folks, Anyone have those small Becker radios in their yak/chang? Seems I used to hear things like "weak on transmission" , no stby monitoring capability, etc. If you have any Becker experience, can you email me off list (I may not get the yak list on the road), considering installing a second comm in this airplane and like the small front end space of the becker, wondering if current set gets any better reviews... Thanks, Drew Drew A. Blahnick RPA President www.flyredstar.org V.954.636.7560 F.305.675.3940 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:34 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 04/26/07 In a message dated 4/27/2007 3:01:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yak-list@matronics.com writes: Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT" statement would have been: KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single person in as a standard single ship, flying into a standard airport, following standard airport procedures so as to have a standard outcome that didn't involve the use of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking MID-AIR COLLISION I tend to agree with this. Being a low time 100 and something hour pilot, I may not know ALL of the ins and outs that you more experienced pilots know, especially any non standard (ie non GA flight school) approaches/procedures. I was taught, once you land, get to taxi speed, and stay there until you park (unless tower specifically asks otherwise & even then you are still the PIC). Sounds like your Cessna pilot was following the same procedures that I was taught. As far as the large pattern he flew, again, maybe he was a low time pilot. Don't assume everyone is Sierra Hotel, and looking for the fastest way down. Maybe this guy is out for a "Sunday drive"? That's no more wrong of him, than for you to use a standard military type approach or formation flight at a GA airport(if that's what happened). Boyce ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:01 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: becker radios Drew, Take a look at the relatively new X-COM VHF radio. http://www.mcp.com.au/xcom760/ Same footprint as the Becker, which is also a fine radio. But the X-COM has two major advantages besides the fact that it is $300 less expensive. 1 - You can monitor the standby frequency, which most people consider a big benefit. Especially if you only have one comm radio. 2 - The built-in intercom has VOX key capability which is a real benefit in a tandem seat airplane where you might have a young person in the back seat that would have difficulty with a PTT intercom. Another nice feature is the remote head which can be installed in the rear cockpit. We'll be installing the X-COM radios AND remote heads in the CJ's being overhauled at our Lithuanian overhaul factory. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Drew Blahnick To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 4:52 AM Subject: Yak-List: becker radios Folks, Anyone have those small Becker radios in their yak/chang? Seems I used to hear things like "weak on transmission" , no stby monitoring capability, etc. If you have any Becker experience, can you email me off list (I may not get the yak list on the road), considering installing a second comm in this airplane and like the small front end space of the becker, wondering if current set gets any better reviews... Thanks, Drew Drew A. Blahnick RPA President www.flyredstar.org V.954.636.7560 F.305.675.3940 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:04 AM PST US From: Jill Gernetzke Subject: Yak-List: 2 cents on uncontrolled fields Group, I have been reading the discussion on the near misses this morning. First off, I am not military. I am not a high time pilot either. My first solo flight was into Bradley Sky Ranch in North Pole, AK - a gravel airstrip, uncontrolled field. As I was landing my Aeronca Chief with no radios or lights, there was another aircraft landing the other way. Having no option for a go around, I chopped power, landed and pulled the airplane off into the weeds. When I worked out at Gesoco in Swanton, we had a group of ultra-lighters known as the "Fright Boys". One had to ALWAYS be on alert. Every field I flew off of in Florida was uncontrolled: Kay Larkin, Eagle's Nest, Flagler. I can assure you that "spammers" do not know what you guys are talking about. My follow up is "Why should they???". I may piss some people off here, but I see a level of arrogance in thinking that "civilians" or "Spammers" must tow the line when you are in town. I am trying to play devil's advocate, here. If a group of you travel to Shakhty, Russia, go to the outdoor market and ask for a fresh loaf of rye bread in English, should that little old lady with the babushka on her head be expected to understand you? As with any good relationship, clear communication is the key. These "spammers" right or wrong were probably doing what they always do at that airport. I think a bit of prudence could go a long way. I think Mark has made some very good points. The other night we had a deputy speaking to a citizen's group. He made the comment about "you civilians". Carl quickly asked him what branch of the military the sheriff's department belonged to. The deputy's response is that was they way they were trained to think. Joe Citizen does not see it that way and he is correct. I don't think you are doing anyone a service by looking down your noses at "spammers". Remember, you were there once and probably did some pretty dumb things. In conclusion, I would like to ask what would have been the probable legal outcome had there been a midair in either situation? Who would have been at fault? How much liability does the group and individuals have in this situation? Is there any legal counsel with RPA that would like to offer up an opinion? Jill M-14P, Incorporated 4905 Flightline Drive Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417 (928)-681-4400 Fax(928)681-4404 www.m-14p.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: SNF Near Misses From: "Genzlinger, Reade" Thanks Mark, Craig, Jim and others for putting this out for analysis - as a recently minted wingman (last year) I am processing the details based upon how and what I was taught. The one thing that jumps out is that there has been no reference to HEFOE. It seems to me that the NORDO situation could have been addressed with what I understand is a basic formation process (hand signals). Making the transition from primarily aerobatic hours in the Yak to where it's just you getting cozy with 3 of your best friends brought the whole process of discipline and procedure to a new level. The precision of competition can very nicely be adapted to formation but the process of formation flying requires that we adhere to that process. At least that is the mantra I'm hearing from those who were willing to be GIBs for me (Mike, Charlie, Steve, Marty...). I hope I'm not oversimplifying since it seems to me that the simplicity of the processes involved in formation flying in and of themselves provide for a more than reasonable safety margin. Reade Genzlinger Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation mailto:readeg@cairnwood.com 215.914.0370 -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: SNF Near Misses Point, MALS-14 64E" My advance apologies for this epistle, Sorry Craig, but...... ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:36 AM PST US From: "John A. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Yak-List: 2 cents on uncontrolled fields Very accurate observation Jill. When in unfamiliar uncontrolled airports and hear an IFR practicing pilot call a waypoint that is only published in the approach plate, I ask the pilot to reference position from approach end of intended runway. "Inbound on the ILS Rwy 22 at MAGGS" means nothing to a VFR pilot in the area, but "over the tank farms at 2000 feet on 3 mile final to rwy 22" tells all were to look. John Nielsen Jill Gernetzke wrote: > > Group, > > I have been reading the discussion on the near misses this morning. > First off, I am not military. I am not a high time pilot either. My > first solo flight was into Bradley Sky Ranch in North Pole, AK - a > gravel airstrip, uncontrolled field. As I was landing my Aeronca Chief > with no radios or lights, there was another aircraft landing the other > way. Having no option for a go around, I chopped power, landed and > pulled the airplane off into the weeds. When I worked out at Gesoco in > Swanton, we had a group of ultra-lighters known as the "Fright Boys". > One had to ALWAYS be on alert. Every field I flew off of in Florida was > uncontrolled: Kay Larkin, Eagle's Nest, Flagler. I can assure you that > "spammers" do not know what you guys are talking about. My follow up is > "Why should they???". I may piss some people off here, but I see a > level of arrogance in thinking that "civilians" or "Spammers" must tow > the line when you are in town. I am trying to play devil's advocate, > here. If a group of you travel to Shakhty, Russia, go to the outdoor > market and ask for a fresh loaf of rye bread in English, should that > little old lady with the babushka on her head be expected to understand > you? As with any good relationship, clear communication is the key. > These "spammers" right or wrong were probably doing what they always do > at that airport. I think a bit of prudence could go a long way. I > think Mark has made some very good points. > > The other night we had a deputy speaking to a citizen's group. He made > the comment about "you civilians". Carl quickly asked him what branch > of the military the sheriff's department belonged to. The deputy's > response is that was they way they were trained to think. Joe Citizen > does not see it that way and he is correct. I don't think you are doing > anyone a service by looking down your noses at "spammers". Remember, > you were there once and probably did some pretty dumb things. > > In conclusion, I would like to ask what would have been the probable > legal outcome had there been a midair in either situation? Who would > have been at fault? How much liability does the group and individuals > have in this situation? Is there any legal counsel with RPA that would > like to offer up an opinion? > > > Jill > M-14P, Incorporated > 4905 Flightline Drive > Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417 > (928)-681-4400 > Fax(928)681-4404 > www.m-14p.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:15 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Subject: Yak-List: SNF Near Miss Radio ops Guys, I know this is getting to be a pretty dusty dead horse but..I did not see anything mentioned about the NORDO procedures for getting the wingman back on freq or to confirm that the wingie was truly NORDO not just lost in space. Did lead rock 2 in and give him the hand signals for Nordo and attempt to get him back on freq. Did 2 give the HEFOE signals for NORDO while in fingertip so Lead could verify he was truly NORDO? If a flight member was truly NORDO, the lead should have cleared off the other element to do their own element recovery and keep 2 with him. Lead should have lead 2 into the pattern clearing the flight paths of both aircraft and executing the necessary radio calls for both aircraft. Announcing to all on freq or the tower if it exist that 2 is NORDO. They fly a closed pattern with lead giving the lead to 2 on downwind and flying chase for 2 through the base turn and on final again being the parrot for 2 making all the radio calls and helping with clearing the airspace to get 2 in. The other option is fly the straight in with lead in chase position making the radio calls. Not to practical in the uncontrolled environment though. You have to clear the airspace for the injured or NORDO bird. This incidently is how we should treat a injured bird with other mechanical problems. If 2 really has a problem, then lead should offer lead to the aircraft with the problem and fly backup for the bent airplane. Backing him up on the check list, being an additional lookout, backing up the navigation, and making the necessary radio calls. This obviously is not all done while in fingertip. Anyway, back to the NORDO A/C, after dropping off 2, then lead flies a closed pattern for a standard recovery. Would this have helped at Leward, maybe, I do not know since I was not there. It just struck me that lead said that he assumed that 2 could hear but not transmit secondary to the bleed over RF when 2 transmitted off freq. Did 2 give lead the HEFOE signals for NORDO can't transmit (the hand waived up and down infront of the mouth)? Two, how do you get lead's attention that you have a problem if lead is not paying attention to his flight for whatever reason or you realize that this radio is real quit and it should not be. Did you pull acute to him in fingertip or route and put your fist on the top of the canopy (on your forehead as stated in the old RPA manual) or waggle your wings while in acute position if lead can't figure out why you put you fist up on the top of you canopy or your forehead? If 2 really could not talk to the flight, then that is cause to KO the sortie and sort out the problem. Break up the 4 ship into elements recovering as 2 ships with lead flying chase for the problem bird. A 4 ship overhead break was probably not the way to have gotten everyone onto the ground without incident. Atleast as I remember, that is the way we would bring a problem bird home that is NORDO or that has a different problem. That is not written in concrete though. Lead should give the problem bird the opportunity to take the lead and allow the problem bird the privilage of shaking that lead off if the problem is such that he has enough to do to just fly the airplane. If that is the case give him the room and support to manage the problem and RTB safely. Taking a problem bird into the break may not help anyone out and lead to worse problems. We do not do that in AF (and I'm sure some will not want to hear that is the way we did it in the Mil back when..but I said it anyway to hopefully stimulate some thought on what will save someone's but one day). I've already gone through the bent bird routine with a lead that neither gave the courtesy of offering the lead nor flying chase. Then lead wanted to fly an ovehead break. Sorry dude, I did not close it up because my engine liked staying at 70% and did not misfire jaring my eye teeth at that setting. I just was not real comfortable jokeying the throttle in finger tip and I really would have liked to have landed first but that discussion was had after the sortie was over since I landed #2. Guess we could do a there I was story for the rag on that one also.. Alittle verbose, sorry. Also made with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Doc ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:15 PM PST US From: "steve and donna hanshew" Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses Good God, JT8D's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow. ----- Original Message ----- From: cjpilot710@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses In a message dated 4/26/2007 3:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhanshew@cinci.rr.com writes: How about that!. The old guy is still in there kicking! He showed me a picture of the Y-10. Because it had JT-8 engines, it reminded me of an early 707. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby Pappy, Guess who is quoted in a Forbes article on China's endeavor to build the BIG plane. Check it out China's Large Aircraft Readying For Take-Off http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/25/boeing-airbus-china-ent-manage-cx_kw_042 5whartonaircraft.html?partner=yahootix Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: cjpilot710@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses In a message dated 4/25/2007 9:32:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes: I was there. This is what happened. I was number 3 in a three ship. After briefing we departed LAL in a 3 ship takeoff from rwy 27L. (link #1 we forgot to brief the ZPH unicom frequency) After 3 miles we turned north to ZPH. Lead switched us to 123.075 #2 miss heard and dialed to 123.70 (link #2) At check in, lead and I could only hear a static reply from #2. What we heard was frequency bleed over because we were in formation. We both figured #2 was having a mike problem. (link #3) ZPH unicom confirmed that runway 36 was in use which matched the slight wind of about 5 kts. Lead set us up for an 3 or 4 mile initial runway 36, making all the calls and stating intentions. A Cessna 172 called in bound also. At that point he was the only known traffic in the area. (link #4) The Cessna entered the left down wind for rwy 36. Lead set us up for a left 4 second break. The flight broke and lead fell in line behind the Cessna on the down wind. The Cessna proceeds to fly what can only be called a 747 approach pattern. Lead and the rest of the flight have normal spacing on the Cessna. Plenty of room. On landing the Cessna goes into a slow taxi mood right in the middle of the runway. (link #5) The Cessna does not reply to a plea (from me) to clear the runway. Lead press on until he has no option but execute a missed approach. #2 (NORDO) seeing the lead miss does the same for the same reason. I, #3 do the same. At this point I am about 200 yds to the rear of #2. Lead starts a left turn at the departure end of the runway to reenter the pattern. #2 (NORDO) starts a left turn to rejoin on lead. At this point I notice a Moony lifting off on rwy 4, to our left. This aircraft made no calls over unicom frequency what so ever. (link #6) I made a radio call to #2 to watch for the traffic coming from the left. I, like lead, still assumed he could receive us. Soon after that call, I can see the projected flight paths of both aircraft are going to merge. I make a "frantic" call for #2 to "go down! go down! go down!" I see his aircraft "respond" by diving under the Moony, not knowing he never heard my call but he saw the Moony in time to clear. The rest of the flight was uneventful. Detailed debriefing ensued. If this had indeed lead to an accident, you can see braking any of the links above would have prevented it. The one thing that did was SA on the part of #2. Being NORDO in a formation while damn inconvenient need not be dangerous. That is part of what FAST is about. The poor piloting skills of the Cessna pilot and the total disregard of the Moony pilot (no radio calls and not checking for traffic on runway 36 which is in plain sight.) are links that could have not been changed on our part. I agree with Mark that at times forgoing formation 360 overhead arrivals maybe wise, but in this particular case the situation didn't seem to warrant it. And given with what we knew at the time, I'd most likely do it again. Knowledge of procedures, practiced handling skills, attention to equipment, SA, and experience (only gained at making mistakes) is what makes for safe flight. But than again, I'll take all the luck I can get. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" I was not there, (WHICH IS A BIG DEAL AND I ADMIT IT) but I have a question and comment based on the account of this event. 1. At an untowered airport that is selling cheap gas in very close proximity to a major event such as Sun & Fun (and yes, I have been to and landed at just about every strip within 50 miles of Lakeland), why is it necessary to enter any kind of break at all? 2. To Wit and more importantly: Why is it necessary to bring a 4 ship OR a 3 ship formation into a pattern populated by the totally uninitiated, combined with possible sky-divers at a field with two runways that just scream for conflict? I stand ready to take the heat and flames from any and all involved, but I am going to stick my big NON-FAST-CARD-QUALIFIED rear end out and say this: "Mr. Aviator that drives big people haulers for a living and has great SA" should not have had to exercise it in the first place. Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT" statement would have been: KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single person in as a standard single ship, flying into a standard airport, following standard airport procedures so as to have a standard outcome that didn't involve the use of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking MID-AIR COLLISION. One of the things any formation lead should know is not only how not to lead his flight into a dangerous situation, but also when to kiss his wingman off and KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION FLIGHT COMPLETELY. If such a situation as you just described does not meet the call to do that, even with 20/20 hindsight, then my retired military ass does not know what does. Sorry to not agree with your assessment Craig, but also respecting your willingness to tell the story. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 14:47 To: yak-list Subject: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses I was waiting for others to post this, but .... During the staging flight up to ZPH from LAL There were 2 serious near misses encountered by our formations. Zephyrhills is an uncontrolled field just NNW of Lakeland with cheap gas, plenty of parking, and a CTAF of 123.075. Being a local it common to hear folks broadcasting on Plant City 123.0 for ZPH. Not sure that happened during incident #1 but perhaps. There are 2 runways, 4-22 and 18-36 that meet at the NW end. Left traffic on both due to skydiving ops on the SE side. GA traffic often uses 4-22 as the skydivers claim to "own" 18-36. No problems with skydive ops this year though. Wind was 340 degrees. #1) An RPA 4-ship breaks for 36 and Lead initiates a go-around. At the same time a Mooney departs NORAD on 4; you guessed it, one of our guys just about hooked left into Mooney but happened to spot the developing mid-air about 50 feet short of disaster. Said aviator drives big people haulers for a living and has great SA. #2) Inbound RPA 4-ship breaks up into a solo and 3-ship when Lead (me) makes a precautionary landing on 36 due to high oil temp. Mucho inbound traffic to the airport. I taxi in and monitor the airborne arguement over which runway is in use. As the 3-ship breaks for 04 and I hear and see a Cherokee turn final, he has no traffic callouts. At the same time I see my Deputy lead arc in on final on a vector that would neatly place the CJ-6 directly on the Cherokee. I call for the go-around and the Cherokee never sees (or understands) what just happened. Prevention: 1) Stay away from busy, uncontrolled airfields near major fly-ins. Use towered fields if possible. 2) Failing that, do NOT use a conventional 360 break as lots of GA folks don't know what that is. My thought is to break 90 degrees onto downwind from over the top and take interval on base-final. Another technique could be to break downfield, rather than on the Numbers so that a downwind entry is acomplished and interval set. Craig es Day --> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - bsp; --> ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - See what's free at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Yak-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Forms and patterns From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Thanks Craig, that is my point exactly. There are indeed times when us aviators should leave flying strictly to the birds and not force ourselves into their domain. In all manner of ways. Here are my recommendations for modifying current techniques. They are not tongue in cheek. They are honest and straight forward: 1. Military aircraft radios all have TWO receivers built in. One you dial in the freq. The other is rock bound on GUARD. If COMM is lost, a transmission in the blind on GUARD usually solves the problem. Civil aircraft do not have this feature. Thus something is needed to cover the same circumstance in the same way. Something like a briefed back-up freq. 2. Hand & Arm signals need to be practiced and used. The word "assumption" needs to be stricken from formation terminology. 3. When the formation includes more than 2 aircraft, a plan should be briefed in case someone has a system failure. For example, if anyone has any kind of problem, the four ship will break up into "something else". Typically, with a LEAD taking the wingman with the failure right to the runway, where lead goes around and wingman lands. This is typical SOP 4. Go Around procedures. Were they briefed? If lead goes around, what does the rest of the flight do, go around as well? That does not make much sense. Neither does trying to re-join after a mass go-around at an uncontrolled field. 5. Thought should be given to modifying procedures for uncontrolled fields to wit: Briefing that once the aircraft have made the break and are extended trail at an uncontrolled field where there is no tower that will clear the whole flight to land, that at that point.......the formation is over, and each aircraft should revert to standard general aviation procedures intended for single aircraft landings at an uncontrolled field. The intent is to land. Not to maintain formation flight. I don't think popping smoke is a great idea at an uncontrolled general aviation airfield, but I could be wrong. Best Regards, Mark Bitterlich N50YK -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 21:01 Subject: Yak-List: Forms and patterns Thanks all for your input but the point on formations could be extended to the extreme that aviation is strictly for the birds and for us to watch them from the ground. My post was intended as a heads-up on modifying current technique for these situations. When flying with NATA dudes many years ago, popping smoke in the pattern was a good way to mark a position and configuring T-6's into extended trail for pattern entry seemed to work well. >In this case it would seem that only one pilot is "looking for the >unexpected" and the other three are looking at another aircraft in the >formation. Or maybe I'm missing something? What's missing here is understanding that when the flight is configured into extended trail, 4 sets of eyes are looking and scanning. That was my suggestion for entering busy airspace. It is the NEXT situation I worry about, the last was a learning experience to carry forward. Craig Payne cpayne@joimail.com .. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:13 PM PST US From: Yak Pilot Subject: Yak-List: YAK-50 Prop Question Looking for some feedback from YAK-50 owners that are lucky enough to be running 3 bladed props. Except for one Hoffman, most of the folks I have talked to are running MT's. What I need to know is whether you are running a 250 or a 260 ? Is the 260 so long that wheel landings are a threat to the blades or is there plenty of room? All comments welcome. Mark Bitterlich mark.bitterlich@navy.mil Work markbitterlich@earthlink.net Home yakplt@yahoo.com Hanger ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:19 PM PST US From: Ai Bao Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses And when they did, they made a helluva noise out there in the swamp where I was watching along with the rest of the creatures ......... --- steve and donna hanshew wrote: > Good God, JT8D's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cjpilot710@aol.com > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:54 PM > Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses > > > In a message dated 4/26/2007 3:11:29 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, dhanshew@cinci.rr.com writes: > > How about that!. The old guy is still in there > kicking! He showed me a picture of the Y-10. > Because it had JT-8 engines, it reminded me of an > early 707. > > Jim "Pappy" Goolsby > > > > Pappy, > > Guess who is quoted in a Forbes article on > China's endeavor to build the BIG plane. Check it > out > > China's Large Aircraft Readying For Take-Off > > > http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/25/boeing-airbus-china-ent-manage-cx_kw_0425whartonaircraft.html?partner=yahootix > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cjpilot710@aol.com > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Near Misses > > > In a message dated 4/25/2007 9:32:20 P.M. > Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > writes: > > > I was there. > > This is what happened. > > I was number 3 in a three ship. > After briefing we departed LAL in a 3 ship > takeoff from rwy 27L. (link #1 we forgot to brief > the ZPH unicom frequency) > After 3 miles we turned north to ZPH. > Lead switched us to 123.075 > #2 miss heard and dialed to 123.70 (link #2) > At check in, lead and I could only hear a > static reply from #2. What we heard was frequency > bleed over because we were in formation. We both > figured #2 was having a mike problem. (link #3) > ZPH unicom confirmed that runway 36 was in use > which matched the slight wind of about 5 kts. > Lead set us up for an 3 or 4 mile initial > runway 36, making all the calls and stating > intentions. > A Cessna 172 called in bound also. At that > point he was the only known traffic in the area. > (link #4) > The Cessna entered the left down wind for rwy > 36. > Lead set us up for a left 4 second break. > The flight broke and lead fell in line behind > the Cessna on the down wind. > The Cessna proceeds to fly what can only be > called a 747 approach pattern. > Lead and the rest of the flight have normal > spacing on the Cessna. Plenty of room. > On landing the Cessna goes into a slow taxi > mood right in the middle of the runway. (link #5) > The Cessna does not reply to a plea (from me) > to clear the runway. > Lead press on until he has no option but > execute a missed approach. > #2 (NORDO) seeing the lead miss does the same > for the same reason. > I, #3 do the same. At this point I am about > 200 yds to the rear of #2. > Lead starts a left turn at the departure end > of the runway to reenter the pattern. > #2 (NORDO) starts a left turn to rejoin on > lead. > At this point I notice a Moony lifting off on > rwy 4, to our left. This aircraft made no calls over > unicom frequency what so ever. (link #6) > I made a radio call to #2 to watch for the > traffic coming from the left. I, like lead, still > assumed he could receive us. > Soon after that call, I can see the projected > flight paths of both aircraft are going to merge. I > make a "frantic" call for #2 to "go down! go down! > go down!" > I see his aircraft "respond" by diving under > the Moony, not knowing he never heard my call but he > saw the Moony in time to clear. > The rest of the flight was uneventful. > Detailed debriefing ensued. > > If this had indeed lead to an accident, you > can see braking any of the links above would have > prevented it. The one thing that did was SA on the > part of #2. > Being NORDO in a formation while damn > inconvenient need not be dangerous. That is part of > what FAST is about. The poor piloting skills of the > Cessna pilot and the total disregard of the Moony > pilot (no radio calls and not checking for traffic > on runway 36 which is in plain sight.) are links > that could have not been changed on our part. > > I agree with Mark that at times forgoing > formation 360 overhead arrivals maybe wise, but in > this particular case the situation didn't seem to > warrant it. And given with what we knew at the time, > I'd most likely do it again. Knowledge of > procedures, practiced handling skills, attention to > equipment, SA, and experience (only gained at making > mistakes) is what makes for safe flight. But than > again, I'll take all the luck I can get. > > Jim "Pappy" Goolsby > > Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" > > > I was not there, (WHICH IS A BIG DEAL AND I > ADMIT IT) but I have a > question and comment based on the account of > this event. > > > 1. At an untowered airport that is selling > cheap gas in very close > proximity to a major event such as Sun & Fun > (and yes, I have been to > and landed at just about every strip within > 50 miles of Lakeland), why > is it necessary to enter any kind of break > at all? > > 2. To Wit and more importantly: Why is it > necessary to bring a 4 ship > OR a 3 ship formation into a pattern > populated by the totally > uninitiated, combined with possible > sky-divers at a field with two > runways that just scream for conflict? > > I stand ready to take the heat and flames > from any and all involved, but > I am going to stick my big > NON-FAST-CARD-QUALIFIED rear end out and say > this: "Mr. Aviator that drives big people > haulers for a living and has > great SA" should not have had to exercise it > in the first place. > > Second, my answer to your: "Failing THAT" > statement would have been: > KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION and fly every single > person in as a standard > single ship, flying into a standard airport, > following standard airport > procedures so as to have a standard outcome > that didn't involve the use > of OUTSTANDING SA to avoid a freaking > MID-AIR COLLISION. > > One of the things any formation lead should > know is not only how not to > lead his flight into a dangerous situation, > but also when to kiss his > wingman off and KNOCK OFF THE FORMATION > FLIGHT COMPLETELY. > > If such a situation as you just described > does not meet the call to do > that, even with 20/20 hindsight, then my > retired military ass does not > know what does. > > Sorry to not agree with your assessment > Craig, but also respecting your > willingness to tell the story. > > Mark Bitterlich > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] > On === message truncated == __________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.