Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: Prop Strikes and tear downs (Michael Bolton)
2. 09:05 AM - OSH arrival Sunday (cjpilot710@aol.com)
3. 09:52 AM - Prop Strike etc. (Paul Dumoret)
4. 11:06 AM - Re: Prop Strike etc. (bob)
5. 12:44 PM - I'll Take One Prop Strike and a Tear Down Please.. (Craig Winkelmann)
6. 02:19 PM - Re: I'll Take One Prop Strike and a Tear Down Please.. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Strikes and tear downs |
Wow Roger, I thought I was the only one with a brain like that. I also have
a Housai engine sitting in the corner of the hangar, anyone intrested? lol
Thanks for all of your help Doug
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Baker" <f4ffm2@adelphia.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Prop Strikes and tear downs
>
> Doug is, as always, a voice of reason and experience...saying things to
> which we should pay attention.
>
> I recently happened to be looking directly at a CJ when the pilot had a
> "brain fart" and raised the gear lever. He didn't raise the gear, but he
> certainly lowered the airplane. To the point; the airplane was parked
> and the engine was at idle....but when the one blade struck the ground,
> the convulsion that the rest of the airplane went through gave graphic
> evidence of the enormous forces that are working inside the engine...even
> at idle.
>
> Thanks Doug.
>
> Roger_____________________________________________________________
> On Jul 17, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Doug Sapp wrote:
>
>>
>> Guys,
>> Would you put your wife or children in a aircraft that was "probably"
>> OK? For that matter would you fly it your self? Next time you take a
>> buddy flying tell him/her that "ya it had a prop strike, but it's
>> probably OK", and watch the reaction. If they are smart they will run
>> like hell. After owning one of the major aircraft salvage companies in
>> the US for nearly 20 years (Aircraft Salvage and Rebuild Inc) and
>> salvaging over 1000 aircraft, I think I have seen nearly every type of
>> accident, from hand propping to wind damage, from bad external loads to
>> cruising full tilt into a cloud full of mountain. I have seen prop
>> flanges break off, mag gear shafts break, gears loose teeth, lock pins
>> and keepers come loose, cylinders come completely off the engine. I
>> have seen "homemade mods" come loose causing all sorts of havoc, exhaust
>> with holes which caused engine fires, the list is long but in most
>> instances can be traced back to something we could have prevented if we
>> had not put our wallets in front of our good judgment.
>> Recently as most of you know I had a engine failure where in all three
>> of the planetary gears in the nose case failed and all power was lost.
>> This accident was felt by all who inspected the engine to be the result
>> of a prop strike somewhere in the aircrafts distance past. True the
>> engine installed on this aircraft came from China "used" but it is no
>> different than me buying a stateside aircraft that had had a
>> undocumented prop strike in it's past. If you sell your aircraft what
>> is your obligation to the guy who buys it? Did you note the prop strike
>> in the logs so he can make an informed decision? Most owners hesitate
>> to do so because they feel that it lessens the resale value of the
>> aircraft, but that's a topic for future posts. Guy's, we have enough
>> problems to worry about without having to worry about rather the engine
>> has been damaged internally after a prop strike, so believe me when I
>> say that you simply rolling the dice, maybe you will and maybe you
>> won't, maybe it will run 5 hours maybe it will run 500 hours. If you
>> have had a prop strike I do not believe that you can honestly look me in
>> the eye and tell me that you feel good enough about your engine to load
>> your love ones up and go flying. It always amazes me that when we ARE
>> fully insured the prop strikes are always worse than when we ARE NOT
>> insured. Yes, some have gotten away with doing nothing but changing the
>> prop but folks, it simply is NOT worth the chance, and money in this
>> instance should not be part of the equation, if it is maybe you should
>> look again at rather or not you can afford to own this type of aircraft.
>> If you cannot afford to install a fresh engine at the minimum send the
>> prop struck engine out for tear down and inspection. Then put the
>> engine on a 5 to 10 hour oil change with oil analysis at each change,
>> and watch it like your life depends on it, because it just might.
>> Always Yakin,
>> Doug
>>
>> Ernie wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what kind of engine the Lancair has, but many Continental
>>> engines have Nitrited cranks which are stong but as brittle as glass,
>>> so yes I would always tear down any flat engine after a prop strike. My
>>> old J-58 Bonanza prop suffered a collision with a towbar which was
>>> still attached (Dont ask) and when I tore the engine down the crank was
>>> cracked.
>>>
>>> That said, the overhaul manual for the Husai engine says in so many
>>> words.
>>>
>>> "If the prop strike wasnt a "Sudden Stoppage", and the damage is
>>> located more than 3 feet (more or less, I dont remember the exact
>>> dimension), from the center axis of the4 hub (about 6 inches in from
>>> the wing tip) then just replace the prop. I've heard of people doing
>>> "Run Out" checks on our round engines. This proves nothing. If the
>>> engine was idleing, and you landed on grass or sand, and the prop kept
>>> turning, and the blades showed no signs of gross impact (missing metal
>>> etc) and the bend occurs beyond the manual specs, then you are probably
>>> ok to just replace the prop. Otherwise a teardown is warranted.
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124349#124349
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | OSH arrival Sunday |
Troops,
RPA Sunday arrival is set for 1230 L (CST). That is when ATC will be
expecting us at OSH.
Since some NATA guys will be hooking on to us to go in at the same time, I'd
like to set the sortie here.
Rendezvous point will be over Nett Construction (7W19) a grass strip,
located 14 nm SE of OSH and 8 nm NE of FDL. Roughly the SE corner of the lake.
This is also assuming a runway 36 L landing. We may have to change rendezvous
point if the runways change to 9 or 18. However this point should work for
36 and 27 operations.
1. RPA flights will depart overhead MTW at 1150 L (start engines at 1135 L)
2. Arrive at the rendezvous point (7W19) at 1210 L.
3. Loiter at 2,500' msl until join up.
4. At 1220 L depart rendezvous point for OSH.
5. At 1230 L arrive OSH.
(times based on 120 kts)
A. Flights will be in trail. One (1) nm between flights. Non formation
pilots will be in "stinger" positions at 1/2 mile.
B. RPA flights from MTW will lead in.
C. NATA flights will follow.
D. Any other RPA flights joining up from other departure points will follow
NATA Texans.
TAC #1 122.72
TAC #2 123.15
TAC #3 123.17
Call sign "RPA Lead" "Texan Lead". Other flights joining up will use their
call sign.
At switch over the OSH ATCTC frequency 122.6 "RPA Lead" will change call
sign to "EAA Warbird Lead" as per letter of agreement.
Last aircraft in the last flight will use the call sign "EAA Warbird Tail"
This particularly important if the aircraft is a stinger. If the last craft
is part of a flight of 4, his lead will make the calls UNTIL the flight
breaks for the landing, than #4 will make the calls at the appreciate time. (see
attachment)
All Leads please read briefing attached.
At this point I plan on leading the RPA group in. I'd like to have a backup
for me. Any takers?
All Leads may contact me at 386-467-3313 (home) or 386-559-1942 (cell).
Here is hoping the engines run and the weather gods are smiling.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby RPA
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 3
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| Subject: | Prop Strike etc. |
Excellent post Doug. As one who has just had this unfortunate
experience, I had to unbelievably fight off those who said to simply
replace the prop. We did have M14-P Inc do the inspection to find the
engine OK. We also, after Doug's experience, had the planetary's
magnafluxed - still all OK. But the peace of mind is worth all of the
hassle. Now flying with one of M14-P's new V530C blades - beautiful
prop.
Paul Dumoret
N75485
Oliver, BC
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Strike etc. |
Paul,
We saw the new prop during a visit to Kingman, AZ last month.
You're right, it's beautiful.
What can you tell us about performance, vibration, etc? TIA
bob
N52BN
Paul Dumoret wrote:
> Excellent post Doug. As one who has just had this unfortunate
> experience, I had to unbelievably fight off those who said to simply
> replace the prop. We did have M14-P Inc do the inspection to find the
> engine OK. We also, after Doug's experience, had the planetary's
> magnafluxed - still all OK. But the peace of mind is worth all of the
> hassle. Now flying with one of M14-P's new V530C blades - beautiful prop.
>
> Paul Dumoret
> N75485
> Oliver, BC
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | I'll Take One Prop Strike and a Tear Down Please.. |
Folks:
I've read the posts on this subject and have to chime in. I, like Doug,
recently had an engine failure in flight. Mine was in a Cessna 182. Doug
and I are part of the aviation community that realize that you are one or
two aeronautical decisions away from being here to talk about an engine
failure and being a statistic.
When it comes to aviation decision making, we make decisions on the ground
when we maintain our aircraft and preflight them. The decisions made on the
ground impact those that you may have to make in the air. However, once you
are in the air, the outcome of those decisions is magnified significantly
because you are now in a higher risk situation.
I can't see making the decision to put myself, as a father and husband, in
an airplane that has had a known prop strike and go fly it. Would you open
the front case and bash the planetary gears with a hammer and then close it
up and go fly? Also, when looking at the Housai manual regarding prop
strikes, remember the person who wrote it isn't the one sitting in the plane
and flying it when the prop stops. We can't take all of the risk out of
what we do. However, we can minimize risk by making approprate decisions.
We all have a budget for aviation. Some are larger than others. However,
when it comes to safety of flight, I think we have to check our wallets at
the door. For me, I wouldn't want my wife or child finding out after an
incident that I put money ahead of them possibly having a spouse or a dad.
Craig Winkelmann, CFI
Soon to be CJ Owner
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: I'll Take One Prop Strike and a Tear Down Please.. |
In a message dated 7/18/2007 3:46:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
capav8r@gmail.com writes:
Here is my .02 cents worth.
Doug, Craig, and others have perfectly good arguments and reasoning in their
views of prop strikes. To be cautious is with out a doubt, is the safest
way. However, the aviation community and companies over the years have looked
at prop strikes from a more what can only be called a more "practical" view.
Yes "practical" is not always the safest.
The weight of one side against the other, usually comes to the bottom line.
$$$$$
Considering just the dollar amount saved, is not conducive to safety, BUT
there should be a lot of engines sitting around with the mark of Cain on them,
that are still safe to fly, if that was the total answer. While you might
not think much of Chinese engineering easement of prop strikes in their manual,
I submit you have nothing other, to prove your point. Only what is the safe
thing to do.
I can point to the engine I have on my airplane. I bought it brand new from
AeroStar. At 250 hours (more or less), I pulled the gear from under my CJ.
(Doug Sapp was standing there so he'll remember my "9-11") The engine was
stopping as she went on her belly and broke off one blade. Anyway we're in
the middle of "no here". A old time local IA, checked the engine. Did a run
out check, and said she was good to go. I went, watching the chip detector
with one eye and likely landing spots with the other, all the way to AZ.
Nothing happened. 200 hours later, the chip detector came on. It was nothing
to
do with the prop strike, but the factory had put a scraper ring where an oil
ring should have gone!
That same engine sits, on my airplane to this day. I now have over 1,350
hours on it. She still runs fine, but she is starting to show her age.
Lucky? I guess so. Smart? I didn't really have a choice money wise at that
point. Practical? Yes, but I had lots of advice in making that decision.
Then, as now, we do not have M-14p nor HS6a overhaul shops to pick from here
in the US. It's either its a new engine (no such thing in HS6a). It maybe
an overhaul one from China, but everyone is dubious of them. The guy who
dings a prop, is still stuck with that same decision.
Yes it is safe to say, get a new engine, and smart. But wouldn't it nice if
someone out there could take a nose section off a "dinger", inspect it, and
give some guy a better way of making a decision?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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