---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/29/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:07 AM - Re: tank size (Barry Hancock) 2. 06:40 AM - Re: Re: tank size (Roger Kemp) 3. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: tank size (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: tank size (viperdoc) 5. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: tank size (A. Dennis Savarese) 6. 10:42 AM - Interesting Gear Up Stats from the Orlando FSDO (viperdoc) 7. 11:47 AM - Re: Tanks for the -50 / CJ-6 (Yak Pilot) 8. 12:19 PM - Re: Interesting Gear Up Stats from the Orlando FSDO (Bill Tally) 9. 01:54 PM - Re: Re: Interesting Gear Up Stats from the Orlando FSDO (Brian Lloyd) 10. 05:19 PM - Operation Pumpkin Drop (Stephen Fox) 11. 08:59 PM - M-14P core (Barry Hancock) 12. 09:12 PM - Experience with Pride Aircraft....L-39 (Tim Gagnon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:06 AM PST US From: Barry Hancock Subject: Yak-List: Re: tank size On Jul 28, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: > Barry, > > Are you referring to this tank for the 50 also? > > Doc Yeah....you can extend the aux tank for about 6 gallons. Anything more and you'll have a nice large tank....that won't go back in the airplane. ;) Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:58 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: tank size Barry, You are talking about welding a 10 in stainless steel section onto the existing AUX tank, correct? That is the mod that TJ told me about. I have not gotten around to that one yet. Time is the issue. I have been doing other small projects like working on the Carbon Monoxide problems with taxi, TO, landing, and shut down. The problem is significant for my two YAKs, a local CJ as well as a couple of other local YAKs. The CO levels decrease to well below PEL (permissible exposure limits) in flight. The airframe mods that Craig Payne and Pappy wrote about help in flight to lower the levels. They do not do anything for the most dangerous time, on the ground. I am working with a company that makes a NASA licensed catalyst but there are a couple of other issues to using this cold conversion catalyst that I can't talk about because of my contract with them. There are three ways to approach this. As you say though, they all are not cheap. Then if I get into the marketing part of this there is the liability part that the lawyers so love to sue for to consider. That will also run the cost up! You have already seen the hesitation in the community to spend a lot on these aircraft. When cost for doing something gets into the $2000 - 5000 range, their eyes glaze over. Maybe you are in a different community that accepts increased cost easily. The one I'm in down here does not accept the cost lightly and are much more likely to not pay for it. As soon as I finish gathering data, I will publish an article in the Red Star rag. Speaking of YAK 50's, where in Alabama is Roy Wells moving to? His will be the third 50 in the state if he is moving here. I do have to say they are a blast to fly. Yesterday I was seeing 250 Kph (clics) or 132-135 kts at 62% and 650 mmHg. I burned 10 gallons for that hour I was up. With the current gas on board with the AUX tank ( 33 gal) that would be a 3 hour sortie with .3 reserve to dead empty. Now, I am not going to push it that far because I just never plan any flight for max endurance. To many variables that play into max endurance planning leaving little room for error. The does give me a comfortable 200 to 250 nm range though at that power setting. My but, knee, and bladder cannot tolerate much farther anyway. To many years of training in the fighter community with all our short hops. I cannot imagine what it is like for the my guys that are flying 5 to 7 hour sorties now with multiple trips to tanker! That is why it is the young guys doing it now. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Hancock Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:06 AM Subject: Yak-List: Re: tank size On Jul 28, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: Barry, Are you referring to this tank for the 50 also? Doc Yeah....you can extend the aux tank for about 6 gallons. Anything more and you'll have a nice large tank....that won't go back in the airplane. ;) Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:42 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: tank size Doc, I believe the tanks are aluminum and not stainless steel. Way too heavy if they were SS. If one were to fabricate a aluminum type of "box" where the existing two tanks are located and put a bladder in the box, there would never be a problem of getting the tank in and out of the airplane. The "box" could be fabricated with sheet aluminum in such a way to allow each sheet to fit through the hell hole during assembly. The box could effectively be assembled inside the fuselage using countersunk screws on the inside of the box to prevent potential puncturing of the bladder. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Kemp To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: tank size Barry, You are talking about welding a 10 in stainless steel section onto the existing AUX tank, correct? That is the mod that TJ told me about. I have not gotten around to that one yet. Time is the issue. I have been doing other small projects like working on the Carbon Monoxide problems with taxi, TO, landing, and shut down. The problem is significant for my two YAKs, a local CJ as well as a couple of other local YAKs. The CO levels decrease to well below PEL (permissible exposure limits) in flight. The airframe mods that Craig Payne and Pappy wrote about help in flight to lower the levels. They do not do anything for the most dangerous time, on the ground. I am working with a company that makes a NASA licensed catalyst but there are a couple of other issues to using this cold conversion catalyst that I can't talk about because of my contract with them. There are three ways to approach this. As you say though, they all are not cheap. Then if I get into the marketing part of this there is the liability part that the lawyers so love to sue for to consider. That will also run the cost up! You have already seen the hesitation in the community to spend a lot on these aircraft. When cost for doing something gets into the $2000 - 5000 range, their eyes glaze over. Maybe you are in a different community that accepts increased cost easily. The one I'm in down here does not accept the cost lightly and are much more likely to not pay for it. As soon as I finish gathering data, I will publish an article in the Red Star rag. Speaking of YAK 50's, where in Alabama is Roy Wells moving to? His will be the third 50 in the state if he is moving here. I do have to say they are a blast to fly. Yesterday I was seeing 250 Kph (clics) or 132-135 kts at 62% and 650 mmHg. I burned 10 gallons for that hour I was up. With the current gas on board with the AUX tank ( 33 gal) that would be a 3 hour sortie with .3 reserve to dead empty. Now, I am not going to push it that far because I just never plan any flight for max endurance. To many variables that play into max endurance planning leaving little room for error. The does give me a comfortable 200 to 250 nm range though at that power setting. My but, knee, and bladder cannot tolerate much farther anyway. To many years of training in the fighter community with all our short hops. I cannot imagine what it is like for the my guys that are flying 5 to 7 hour sorties now with multiple trips to tanker! That is why it is the young guys doing it now. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Hancock Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:06 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: tank size On Jul 28, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: Barry, Are you referring to this tank for the 50 also? Doc Yeah....you can extend the aux tank for about 6 gallons. Anything more and you'll have a nice large tank....that won't go back in the airplane. ;) Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:37 AM PST US From: "viperdoc" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: tank size Dennis, We can look at that. It all the space is utilized with the enclosure of the bulkheads, that is going to be more gas than my bladder and but could ever stand! You will be looking at a 6 hour bird! A rough estimate puts the volume at about 70 gallons just using the two bulkheads! I stand corrected. It is aluminum not SS. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: tank size Doc, I believe the tanks are aluminum and not stainless steel. Way too heavy if they were SS. If one were to fabricate a aluminum type of "box" where the existing two tanks are located and put a bladder in the box, there would never be a problem of getting the tank in and out of the airplane. The "box" could be fabricated with sheet aluminum in such a way to allow each sheet to fit through the hell hole during assembly. The box could effectively be assembled inside the fuselage using countersunk screws on the inside of the box to prevent potential puncturing of the bladder. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Kemp Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: tank size Barry, You are talking about welding a 10 in stainless steel section onto the existing AUX tank, correct? That is the mod that TJ told me about. I have not gotten around to that one yet. Time is the issue. I have been doing other small projects like working on the Carbon Monoxide problems with taxi, TO, landing, and shut down. The problem is significant for my two YAKs, a local CJ as well as a couple of other local YAKs. The CO levels decrease to well below PEL (permissible exposure limits) in flight. The airframe mods that Craig Payne and Pappy wrote about help in flight to lower the levels. They do not do anything for the most dangerous time, on the ground. I am working with a company that makes a NASA licensed catalyst but there are a couple of other issues to using this cold conversion catalyst that I can't talk about because of my contract with them. There are three ways to approach this. As you say though, they all are not cheap. Then if I get into the marketing part of this there is the liability part that the lawyers so love to sue for to consider. That will also run the cost up! You have already seen the hesitation in the community to spend a lot on these aircraft. When cost for doing something gets into the $2000 - 5000 range, their eyes glaze over. Maybe you are in a different community that accepts increased cost easily. The one I'm in down here does not accept the cost lightly and are much more likely to not pay for it. As soon as I finish gathering data, I will publish an article in the Red Star rag. Speaking of YAK 50's, where in Alabama is Roy Wells moving to? His will be the third 50 in the state if he is moving here. I do have to say they are a blast to fly. Yesterday I was seeing 250 Kph (clics) or 132-135 kts at 62% and 650 mmHg. I burned 10 gallons for that hour I was up. With the current gas on board with the AUX tank ( 33 gal) that would be a 3 hour sortie with .3 reserve to dead empty. Now, I am not going to push it that far because I just never plan any flight for max endurance. To many variables that play into max endurance planning leaving little room for error. The does give me a comfortable 200 to 250 nm range though at that power setting. My but, knee, and bladder cannot tolerate much farther anyway. To many years of training in the fighter community with all our short hops. I cannot imagine what it is like for the my guys that are flying 5 to 7 hour sorties now with multiple trips to tanker! That is why it is the young guys doing it now. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Hancock Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:06 AM Subject: Yak-List: Re: tank size On Jul 28, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: Barry, Are you referring to this tank for the 50 also? Doc Yeah....you can extend the aux tank for about 6 gallons. Anything more and you'll have a nice large tank....that won't go back in the airplane. ;) Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:29 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: tank size Doc, The beauty of a bladder fuel tank is it can be sized to whatever your personal bladder can handle. :-) Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: viperdoc To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: tank size Dennis, We can look at that. It all the space is utilized with the enclosure of the bulkheads, that is going to be more gas than my bladder and but could ever stand! You will be looking at a 6 hour bird! A rough estimate puts the volume at about 70 gallons just using the two bulkheads! I stand corrected. It is aluminum not SS. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:01 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: tank size Doc, I believe the tanks are aluminum and not stainless steel. Way too heavy if they were SS. If one were to fabricate a aluminum type of "box" where the existing two tanks are located and put a bladder in the box, there would never be a problem of getting the tank in and out of the airplane. The "box" could be fabricated with sheet aluminum in such a way to allow each sheet to fit through the hell hole during assembly. The box could effectively be assembled inside the fuselage using countersunk screws on the inside of the box to prevent potential puncturing of the bladder. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Kemp To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: tank size Barry, You are talking about welding a 10 in stainless steel section onto the existing AUX tank, correct? That is the mod that TJ told me about. I have not gotten around to that one yet. Time is the issue. I have been doing other small projects like working on the Carbon Monoxide problems with taxi, TO, landing, and shut down. The problem is significant for my two YAKs, a local CJ as well as a couple of other local YAKs. The CO levels decrease to well below PEL (permissible exposure limits) in flight. The airframe mods that Craig Payne and Pappy wrote about help in flight to lower the levels. They do not do anything for the most dangerous time, on the ground. I am working with a company that makes a NASA licensed catalyst but there are a couple of other issues to using this cold conversion catalyst that I can't talk about because of my contract with them. There are three ways to approach this. As you say though, they all are not cheap. Then if I get into the marketing part of this there is the liability part that the lawyers so love to sue for to consider. That will also run the cost up! You have already seen the hesitation in the community to spend a lot on these aircraft. When cost for doing something gets into the $2000 - 5000 range, their eyes glaze over. Maybe you are in a different community that accepts increased cost easily. The one I'm in down here does not accept the cost lightly and are much more likely to not pay for it. As soon as I finish gathering data, I will publish an article in the Red Star rag. Speaking of YAK 50's, where in Alabama is Roy Wells moving to? His will be the third 50 in the state if he is moving here. I do have to say they are a blast to fly. Yesterday I was seeing 250 Kph (clics) or 132-135 kts at 62% and 650 mmHg. I burned 10 gallons for that hour I was up. With the current gas on board with the AUX tank ( 33 gal) that would be a 3 hour sortie with .3 reserve to dead empty. Now, I am not going to push it that far because I just never plan any flight for max endurance. To many variables that play into max endurance planning leaving little room for error. The does give me a comfortable 200 to 250 nm range though at that power setting. My but, knee, and bladder cannot tolerate much farther anyway. To many years of training in the fighter community with all our short hops. I cannot imagine what it is like for the my guys that are flying 5 to 7 hour sorties now with multiple trips to tanker! That is why it is the young guys doing it now. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Hancock Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:06 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: tank size On Jul 28, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: Barry, Are you referring to this tank for the 50 also? Doc Yeah....you can extend the aux tank for about 6 gallons. Anything more and you'll have a nice large tank....that won't go back in the airplane. ;) Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums .matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:56 AM PST US From: "viperdoc" Subject: Yak-List: Interesting Gear Up Stats from the Orlando FSDO The following link sheds some interesting light on the gear up landing incident question. www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/orl/local_more/media/ppt/enl ow.ppt - 2006-02-17 Danged, CFI's have a 75% incidence rate for gear up landings among other things. Does that mean they have "such poor reputations among the aviation community" too? Doc ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:42 AM PST US From: Yak Pilot Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tanks for the -50 / CJ-6 Actually Barry, yes. I have had both tanks out. It is indeed a major pain in the tail. I do believe that you could two aux size tanks in through the access door though. The best idea is just a frame that you assemble, with a bladder. Mark Barry Hancock wrote: On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: Really? From what I see in mine, I have two different size tanks right next to each other. It appears to me that the original aerobatic tank could easily be made as big as the Aux tank that currently sits right next to it. Guys, have you ever tried to remove the tanks from the aircraft? There is a limit on tank size due to the geometry of getting the tanks in and out. There is a TON more room in there for more fuel, but no practical way to take advantage of the size without MAJOR modifications. On a separate note, we are just a few weeks away from completing our fuel tank modification for the CJ-6. It will net 30 gallons per side, is aluminum, will require only minor reinforcement to existing structure, NO modification to the vent system, is designed by DoD contracted and former Boeing engineers, will be less $$$ per gallon than any other system available, and take less than a week to install. Will have final pricing and pictures available shortly.... Cheers, Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com Coming soon: www.yak-3u.com The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipients. If the reader of this message is not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail or telephone, and delete the original message and all attachments from your system. Thank you ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:13 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Interesting Gear Up Stats from the Orlando FSDO From: "Bill Tally" Try this link: www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/orl/local_more/media/ppt/enlow.ppt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126188#126188 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:46 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Interesting Gear Up Stats from the Orlando FSDO On Jul 29, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Bill Tally wrote: > > Try this link: www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/orl/ > local_more/media/ppt/enlow.ppt Now THAT is just scary. More oversight from the clueless. Statistics tell them that there *might* be something wrong so they have to act, even if they have no idea what would make things better. This is after they make is much more difficult to teach spin avoidance, spins, and spin recovery. (Just back from a day of recurrent training in spins and aerobatics so I can make sure I am not developing bad habits.) -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:14 PM PST US From: Stephen Fox Subject: Yak-List: Operation Pumpkin Drop For those of you at OSH who expressed interest in learning more about Operation Pumpkin Drop II, here's a link to the web site. OPD II You won't regret the trip! Steve Fox ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:36 PM PST US From: Barry Hancock Subject: Yak-List: M-14P core Anyone have an M14P core that they are willing to part with? Prop strike or run out OK. Please contact me directly at bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com. Thanks! Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (714) 730-3958 cell (949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:30 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Experience with Pride Aircraft....L-39 From: "Tim Gagnon" I recently had someone ask about an L-39. He is a previous jet owner and wants to get back into it. He has a thing for the L-39 (and the F-86 but the lack of a second seat keeps him away...I wish he would reconsider. He may let me in on the deal!) Thanks in advance. 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