Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 AM - Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Craig Payne)
2. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Roger Kemp)
3. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Brian Lloyd)
4. 11:23 AM - 18 T part (Joe Howse)
5. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Roger Kemp)
6. 01:20 PM - Re: Snowbird Crash May 07 (Bill Tally)
7. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Snowbird Crash May 07 (Brian Lloyd)
8. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Brian Lloyd)
9. 02:34 PM - Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Dale)
10. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Brian Lloyd)
11. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (viperdoc)
12. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (cjpilot710@aol.com)
13. 03:52 PM - Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Dale)
14. 04:06 PM - Facts mam, just the facts (Doug Sapp)
15. 04:52 PM - Re: Facts mam, just the facts (DaBear)
16. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Stephen Fox)
17. 05:20 PM - Re: Facts mam, just the facts (cjpilot710@aol.com)
18. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (cjpilot710@aol.com)
19. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Brian Lloyd)
20. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Brian Lloyd)
21. 06:28 PM - Re: Facts mam, just the facts (Brian Lloyd)
22. 06:36 PM - Re: Facts mam, just the facts (Brian Lloyd)
23. 07:29 PM - Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 (Dale)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
"Yaks" you say? Wait until Pappy sees this. Those are Nanchang CJ-6's flown by
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby in lead and Craig Ekberg on wing. Craig's airplane has taken
several SNF and Oshkosh awards.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
Ahhh.the discussion begins again! What came first the egg ( CJ-6) or the
chicken ( YAK-18) from two societies so good a pirating and copying all?
:>)) Vince, those are YAKs masquerading as CJ's.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:41 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005
"Yaks" you say? Wait until Pappy sees this. Those are Nanchang CJ-6's flown
by Jim "Pappy" Goolsby in lead and Craig Ekberg on wing. Craig's airplane
has taken several SNF and Oshkosh awards.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> Ahhhthe discussion begins again! What came first the egg ( CJ-6)
> or the chicken ( YAK-18) from two societies so good a pirating and
> copying all? :>)) Vince, those are YAKs masquerading as CJs.
I am always amazed when people bring this up. If you have ever looked
at a Yak-18A you will see that its construction is completely
different from the construction of the CJ6A. The Yak-18A uses steel
tubing for its main structure while the CJ6A is semi-monocoque. Wing
airfoil section is different too. We could go on and on but the
bottom line is that they are very different in their construction.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 4
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Looking for a serviceable lower cowl for my 18.
Joe
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A the chicken or was it the evolving
egg?
All said is true. The Chinese took a good design and made a great design,
well maybe not great but a more gooder design! :>))
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005
On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> Ahhhthe discussion begins again! What came first the egg ( CJ-6)
> or the chicken ( YAK-18) from two societies so good a pirating and
> copying all? :>)) Vince, those are YAKs masquerading as CJs.
I am always amazed when people bring this up. If you have ever looked
at a Yak-18A you will see that its construction is completely
different from the construction of the CJ6A. The Yak-18A uses steel
tubing for its main structure while the CJ6A is semi-monocoque. Wing
airfoil section is different too. We could go on and on but the
bottom line is that they are very different in their construction.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Snowbird Crash May 07 |
What's the opinon of the board on the original Russian Yak52 harness? What's harness
is recommended?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130304#130304
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Snowbird Crash May 07 |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Bill Tally wrote:
>
> What's the opinon of the board on the original Russian Yak52
> harness? What's harness is recommended?
It is pretty hard to beat a Hooker harness.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A the chicken or was it the
> evolving
> egg?
> All said is true. The Chinese took a good design and made a great
> design,
> well maybe not great but a more gooder design! :>))
They are so different as to constitute a complete departure from
where I sit but that is only the opinion of the designer of the CJ6A.
But one will find similarities in all aircraft with a similar mission
profile and engine. If you want to make a fighter that is powered by
a V-12 engine you are going to end up with something that looks a lot
like a Yak-9/P-51/Bf-109/Hurricane/etc. Look at how many people
mistook the Hawker Hurricane for the Spitfire.
My only wish is that people would actually go look at the differences
for themselves rather than repeat hearsay.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
YAK 18A
http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130313#130313
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Dale wrote:
>
> YAK 18A
>
> http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html
Yes, the rumors abound about which came first. If the Chinese are to
be believed, the CJ6A predates the Yak-18A.
But what inspired what is really not the issue. The issue is whether
one is a "copy" of the other. The huge differences make is pretty
clear that neither is a copy of the other.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
Brian,
Seems the Ukrainians are confused too.
So sorry,
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005
On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A the chicken or was it the
> evolving
> egg?
> All said is true. The Chinese took a good design and made a great
> design,
> well maybe not great but a more gooder design! :>))
They are so different as to constitute a complete departure from
where I sit but that is only the opinion of the designer of the CJ6A.
But one will find similarities in all aircraft with a similar mission
profile and engine. If you want to make a fighter that is powered by
a V-12 engine you are going to end up with something that looks a lot
like a Yak-9/P-51/Bf-109/Hurricane/etc. Look at how many people
mistook the Hawker Hurricane for the Spitfire.
My only wish is that people would actually go look at the differences
for themselves rather than repeat hearsay.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
In a message dated 8/22/2007 2:32:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
viperdoc@mindspring.com writes:
The ONLY reason the CJ-6 has the same engine as the Yak is because the
planned engine that flew in the prototype (Czechoslovakian Doris B) turned o
ut to
be a dud, along with its prop. The Chinese went to the HS-6 for that reaso
n
only. Why design a new cowling when the one already designed for the engin
e
was working fine? Lockheed didn't on the Connie when they used the same
engines that were on the Douglas' DC series.
The heart of an aircraft is it's wing. Its shape; airfoil, span, cord,
dihedral, swipe, twist, and angle of attack. The CJ's are all very differe
nt
from any Yak.
Its Not a Yak.
Still joisting at windmills.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A the chicken or was it the evolving
egg?
All said is true. The Chinese took a good design and made a great design,
well maybe not great but a more gooder design! :>))
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005
On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> Ahhhthe discussion begins again! What came first the egg ( CJ-6)
> or the chicken ( YAK-18) from two societies so good a pirating and
> copying all? :>)) Vince, those are YAKs masquerading as CJ=99s.
I am always amazed when people bring this up. If you have ever looked
at a Yak-18A you will see that its construction is completely
different from the construction of the CJ6A. The Yak-18A uses steel
tubing for its main structure while the CJ6A is semi-monocoque. Wing
airfoil section is different too. We could go on and on but the
bottom line is that they are very different in their construction.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=94 Antoine de Saint-Exup=C3=A9ry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
t
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
Using some logic one would have to ask.
What aircraft did the Chinese ever design on their own?
Where did the Chinese buy all their war stuff back then?
Would the USSR need to copy a Chinese design that simple
and then take credit for it?
Last year China launched it's first sat.
I think they did invent fireworks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130330#130330
Message 14
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| Subject: | Facts mam, just the facts |
Guys:
This from "Yakovlev Aircraft since 1924" Bill Gunston and Yefim Gordon.
In the past both have been researchers for "Janes All the Worlds
Aircraft" and have several excellent books on early Russian aviation.
Mr. Gordon has helped me with the proper colors and other information
about the first prototype Yak 18. I do have contact info for him if
anyone wants to "Yak" with him, he speaks fair English and seems to be
eager to talk Yaks.
On page 118 lower left hand paragraph under Yak 18A:
"The Yak 18A, which according to some documents was originally
designated as the Yak 20, was in production at Arsenyev from 1957 to 1961."
It goes on to say that a total of 927 where built Arsenyev and another
1796 were built under license in China. Yes, that's right China!
So, it is incorrect to state that the CJ predates the 18A. However it
is reasonable to assume that the CJ6 was the logical evolution of the
type, and the Chinese having a penchant for copying simply improved upon
the design, keeping the basic size and shape. I think this is
believable because the aircraft did in fact not change shape except for
the removal of Yakolev's signature pumpkin seed tail.
Always Yakin,
Doug
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Dale wrote:
>
>>
>> YAK 18A
>>
>> http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html
>
>
> Yes, the rumors abound about which came first. If the Chinese are to
> be believed, the CJ6A predates the Yak-18A.
>
> But what inspired what is really not the issue. The issue is whether
> one is a "copy" of the other. The huge differences make is pretty
> clear that neither is a copy of the other.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Facts mam, just the facts |
CJ6A a copy of the Yak-18A? Exact Copy No.
CJ6A designed from scratch without influence? NO Chance
Much improved on the Yak-18A design yes. It is much improved over the
18A. They changed the airfoil, used metal wings/tail instead of
tube/fabric. The engine cowl design is not the only thing that used
from the 18A.
The CJ6A is a great airplane. The Chinese built a great airplane.
However, they didn't design it from scratch.
Dabear
owned and flew Yak-52, CJ6A, and Yak-Chang
Doug Sapp wrote:
>
> Guys:
> This from "Yakovlev Aircraft since 1924" Bill Gunston and Yefim
> Gordon. In the past both have been researchers for "Janes All the
> Worlds Aircraft" and have several excellent books on early Russian
> aviation. Mr. Gordon has helped me with the proper colors and other
> information about the first prototype Yak 18. I do have contact info
> for him if anyone wants to "Yak" with him, he speaks fair English and
> seems to be eager to talk Yaks.
>
> On page 118 lower left hand paragraph under Yak 18A:
> "The Yak 18A, which according to some documents was originally
> designated as the Yak 20, was in production at Arsenyev from 1957 to
> 1961."
>
> It goes on to say that a total of 927 where built Arsenyev and another
> 1796 were built under license in China. Yes, that's right China!
>
> So, it is incorrect to state that the CJ predates the 18A. However it
> is reasonable to assume that the CJ6 was the logical evolution of the
> type, and the Chinese having a penchant for copying simply improved
> upon the design, keeping the basic size and shape. I think this is
> believable because the aircraft did in fact not change shape except
> for the removal of Yakolev's signature pumpkin seed tail.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug
>
>
> Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Dale wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> YAK 18A
>>>
>>> http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html
>>
>>
>> Yes, the rumors abound about which came first. If the Chinese are to
>> be believed, the CJ6A predates the Yak-18A.
>>
>> But what inspired what is really not the issue. The issue is whether
>> one is a "copy" of the other. The huge differences make is pretty
>> clear that neither is a copy of the other.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
>> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>
>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>
>> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
>> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
Not to mention the-
seismograph
compass
the wheelbarrow
paper and paper money
kites
steel
cast iron
and the list goes on and on and on including pasta
On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Dale wrote:
> I think they did invent fireworks.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Facts mam, just the facts |
In a message dated 8/22/2007 7:08:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rvfltd@televar.com writes:
I've never been perfectly impressed Janes All the Worlds Aircraft. I've
seen to many guys send in data on an 'original' aircraft design that was
obviously built from popular plans. A "Joe Dokes Special" was really a plans
built
copy of a Pitts or something like that. I don't feel their are always 100%
correct.
The Chinese themselves claim they built under license 376 CJ-5 or Yak-18.
The first Yak 18A was designated the "Yak-18U" after modifications it was
designated the 18A. The Chinese never built Yak-18As. This came from a Yakovlev
web site, if I remember right. The 18A predates the CJ-6.
If the CJ was a copy of the Yak than their wings, gear etc would be
interchangeable and of course they are not. The fact is they are as different
as
night and day. Shape the same yes. But so is the T-6, T-34, PT-23, PT-22, all
2 seat tandem, low wing, monoplane trainers. That's a wide net to cast over
'copies'. :-)
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: Doug Sapp <rvfltd@televar.com>
Guys:
This from "Yakovlev Aircraft since 1924" Bill Gunston and Yefim Gordon.
In the past both have been researchers for "Janes All the Worlds
Aircraft" and have several excellent books on early Russian aviation.
Mr. Gordon has helped me with the proper colors and other information
about the first prototype Yak 18. I do have contact info for him if
anyone wants to "Yak" with him, he speaks fair English and seems to be
eager to talk Yaks.
On page 118 lower left hand paragraph under Yak 18A:
"The Yak 18A, which according to some documents was originally
designated as the Yak 20, was in production at Arsenyev from 1957 to 1961."
It goes on to say that a total of 927 where built Arsenyev and another
1796 were built under license in China. Yes, that's right China!
So, it is incorrect to state that the CJ predates the 18A. However it
is reasonable to assume that the CJ6 was the logical evolution of the
type, and the Chinese having a penchant for copying simply improved upon
the design, keeping the basic size and shape. I think this is
believable because the aircraft did in fact not change shape except for
the removal of Yakolev's signature pumpkin seed tail.
Always Yakin,
Doug
Brian Lloyd wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Dale wrote:
>
>>
>> YAK 18A
>>
>> http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html
>
>
> Yes, the rumors abound about which came first. If the Chinese are to
> be believed, the CJ6A predates the Yak-18A.
>
> But what inspired what is really not the issue. The issue is whether
> one is a "copy" of the other. The huge differences make is pretty
> clear that neither is a copy of the other.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
In a message dated 8/22/2007 8:16:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
steve.fox@mac.com writes:
BLESS YOU MY SON!!
Pappy
Not to mention the-
seismograph
compass
the wheelbarrow
paper and paper money
kites
steel
cast iron
and the list goes on and on and on including pasta
On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Dale wrote:
I think they did invent fireworks.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 3:21 PM, viperdoc wrote:
>
> Brian,
> Seems the Ukrainians are confused too.
Why shouldn't they be? Why would they have more information than we
do? Certainly there was precious little love lost or information
transferred between the Chinese and the Soviets from about 1957 on. I
suspect they did no more research than anyone here (besides Pappy) did.
You know, it is quite interesting that everyone wants to jump on the
bandwagon to support their position. They point to other people who
agree with them and say, "see!" That other people agree with you does
not support your position. That other people disagree with you does
not decrease the truth of your position.
One thing I do know: I have looked at a Yak-18A and I have looked at
a CJ6A. I have looked at their various structures. They are *WAY*
different airplanes. In addition I have spoke with Bushi Cheng, the
designer of the CJ6A, who says that he did not copy the Yak-18A. OK,
maybe he was lying to me but my eyes tell me they are very different
aircraft.
So, frankly, it does not matter what the Ukranians say.
But I don't want anyone to take my word for it. I want people who
wonder to go look at the aircraft and make up their own minds.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Dale wrote:
>
> Using some logic one would have to ask.
> What aircraft did the Chinese ever design on their own?
Quite a few, actually. You ever read Aviation Week and Space
Technology? OTOH, a search of on-line information should fill you in.
> Where did the Chinese buy all their war stuff back then?
By the late 1950's China and the Soviet Union were no longer allies.
It is one of the reasons China decided to create its own aircraft
industry. They were ramping up to be independent of the Soviet Union
because they thought they might have to fight the Soviet Union. You
don't depend on your adversary for your military materiel.
> Would the USSR need to copy a Chinese design that simple
> and then take credit for it?
Why does there seem to be this need to prove that one copied the
other? I haven't seen anyone from either Russia or China claiming
that one is a copy of the other. If you actually *look* at the
aircraft you can see that they could only be considered "alike" from
about 100'. Get up close and they are very different.
> Last year China launched it's first sat.
Oh really? Please check your history. The Chinese set up their first
satellite launch facility in 1957. If you are interested in
additional information, consider these:
http://www.china.org.cn/english/SPORT-c/77178.htm
-or-
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/launchpad/1921/facilities.htm
According to the Chinese they launched their first earth-orbiting
satellite in 1970. Now I wasn't there and I haven't verified the
veracity of the claims but they are consistent and they are probably
pretty easily verified.
> I think they did invent fireworks.
Again, this has nothing to do with whether the Yak-18A is a copy of
the CJ6A or vice versa.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Facts mam, just the facts |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Doug Sapp wrote:
> So, it is incorrect to state that the CJ predates the 18A. However
> it is reasonable to assume that the CJ6 was the logical evolution
> of the type, and the Chinese having a penchant for copying simply
> improved upon the design, keeping the basic size and shape. I
> think this is believable because the aircraft did in fact not
> change shape except for the removal of Yakolev's signature pumpkin
> seed tail.
* The Yak-18A uses a tube and fabric fuselage, the CJ6A is semi-
monocoque.
* The Yak-18A and the CJ6A have completely different airfoil sections.
Bushi Cheng claims he did the initial design for the CJ6A on a clean
sheet in 1957. He also said that the powers-that-be were not ready to
trust their own design team and took the conservative approach of
producing an existing design. Also, as Pappy said, there was the
engine issue. So it is completely possible that the Yak-18A was
produced in China completely independently of the design and
production of the CJ6A.
Have you ever looked at a Yak-18A Doug? It ain't the same animal.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Facts mam, just the facts |
On Aug 22, 2007, at 4:51 PM, DaBear wrote:
>
> CJ6A a copy of the Yak-18A? Exact Copy No. CJ6A designed from
> scratch without influence? NO Chance
Without influence? *NO* airplane is designed without influence of
other aircraft.
> Much improved on the Yak-18A design yes. It is much improved over
> the 18A. They changed the airfoil, used metal wings/tail instead
> of tube/fabric. The engine cowl design is not the only thing that
> used from the 18A.
> The CJ6A is a great airplane. The Chinese built a great airplane.
> However, they didn't design it from scratch.
Then Bushi Cheng stood up and lied to us because he stated very
emphatically that they started with a clean sheet of paper. We asked
the question. Sure he had seen a Yak-18 as the Yak-18 and CJ-5 were
the same aircraft. He may have seen a Yak-18A. But the Yak-18 and
Yak-18A were definitely not the same aircraft, the CJ-5 and CJ-6A are
not the same aircraft, and the Yak-18A and CJ6A are not the same
aircraft.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005 |
Sorry for the response, I will stay out of it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130381#130381
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