Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - Re: VA crash (Robert Kent - WLAC Russian Engineering)
2. 05:29 AM - Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (Craig Winkelmann)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (Brian Lloyd)
4. 07:39 AM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 07:57 AM - Va. crash (Terry Lewis)
6. 08:12 AM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (David McGirt)
7. 08:41 AM - Re: Va. crash (Scooter)
8. 09:17 AM - Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters (tjyak50)
9. 11:05 AM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (Roger Kemp)
10. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters (Roger Kemp)
11. 11:42 AM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (me262pilot@comcast.net)
12. 11:43 AM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters (DaBear)
14. 01:09 PM - Re: Va. crash (Roger Kemp)
15. 01:13 PM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (David McGirt)
16. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters (Roger Kemp)
17. 02:08 PM - Re: Va. crash (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
18. 02:28 PM - Re: Va. crash (David McGirt)
19. 02:57 PM - Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit (Brian Lloyd)
20. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters (DaBear)
21. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters (Roger Kemp)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Never mind the little pictures, there's practically nothing left to see in
the big pictures. He was certainly extremely lucky to get out of it.
http://yesterbooks.com/plane_crash.htm
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Land
Sent: 26 August 2007 03:26
Subject: Re: Yak-List: VA crash
I have spoken with him several times. He is still in the hospital, but
expects to be out tomorrow. They wanted to keep an eye on him.
He is one tough SOB!
There was nothing left of the plane, as you can see in that little picture.
I think he hurt his hand (holding the stick) and possibly broken collar
bone.
Jay
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
>From your primary flight training days, remember the alternate static source
and what happened to the instruments when it was used? Cockpit pressure is
low due to the venturi effect of the slipstream flowing by. However, cruise
is not where the CO problem is. It is taxi, runup and other modes of flight
where the airspeed is low.
It seems as though the problem extends from the malicious intent of those
sympathetic to the Soviet Union trying to get back as us darn Americans. I
don't remember having this as a problem in the Pitts and Extra I've flown
in!!
Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the oxygen
sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the hemoglobin?
Doc???
Craig
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann wrote:
> Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase
> the oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto
> the hemoglobin? Doc???
Unless you completely block out all external CO-containing air, it
won't help. The blood's affinity for CO is hundreds of times higher
than it is for O2 so the CO will bind with the hemoglobin anyway even
though the concentration of CO is low and O2 is high. No, the only
solution is to eliminate the CO in the inspired air.
I still like the idea of the full-face mask being fed from a source
of good (no CO) ambient air taken from a location known to be free of
CO, perhaps out on the wing. Heck, put another pitot tube out there
and use that. (You can pretend it is another .50cal. :-) That is much
simpler than filters or catalysts as nothing would need to be
periodically replaced. Combine it with a diluter-demand regulator or,
better still, one of the newer pulse-demand O2 systems and it will
help at altitude too.
Of course one could always just fix the problem and put on a proper
exhaust system.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
AND seal up all the orifices inside the wing root panels and around the nose
gear actuator. Just doing that should reduce the CO levels considerably.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann wrote:
>
>> Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the
>> oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the
>> hemoglobin? Doc???
>
> Unless you completely block out all external CO-containing air, it won't
> help. The blood's affinity for CO is hundreds of times higher than it is
> for O2 so the CO will bind with the hemoglobin anyway even though the
> concentration of CO is low and O2 is high. No, the only solution is to
> eliminate the CO in the inspired air.
>
> I still like the idea of the full-face mask being fed from a source of
> good (no CO) ambient air taken from a location known to be free of CO,
> perhaps out on the wing. Heck, put another pitot tube out there and use
> that. (You can pretend it is another .50cal. :-) That is much simpler
> than filters or catalysts as nothing would need to be periodically
> replaced. Combine it with a diluter-demand regulator or, better still,
> one of the newer pulse-demand O2 systems and it will help at altitude
> too.
>
> Of course one could always just fix the problem and put on a proper
> exhaust system.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I read with interest the comments posted with the Va. photos.
First let me say that I think the pilot should buy a lottery ticket
asap.He was damn lucky to walk away from that mess.
However to assert that he was intentionally IFR , or scud running , when
this happened is a guess and is predjutial to the pilot in an
investigation.
He may just as well have been legally VFR on top and had a problem that
required an immediate descent.
You can guess or second guess about this kind of accident over coffee as
much as you want, however ,we should be careful what we say about other
pilots on this list.
Terry Lewis
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
I did that, now I am hot as hell, as there is NO airflow in the cockpit, but
plenty of exhaust in ground ops.. :)
On 8/28/07 10:38 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> AND seal up all the orifices inside the wing root panels and around the nose
> gear actuator. Just doing that should reduce the CO levels considerably.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>
>
>>
>> On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the
>>> oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the
>>> hemoglobin? Doc???
>>
>> Unless you completely block out all external CO-containing air, it won't
>> help. The blood's affinity for CO is hundreds of times higher than it is
>> for O2 so the CO will bind with the hemoglobin anyway even though the
>> concentration of CO is low and O2 is high. No, the only solution is to
>> eliminate the CO in the inspired air.
>>
>> I still like the idea of the full-face mask being fed from a source of
>> good (no CO) ambient air taken from a location known to be free of CO,
>> perhaps out on the wing. Heck, put another pitot tube out there and use
>> that. (You can pretend it is another .50cal. :-) That is much simpler
>> than filters or catalysts as nothing would need to be periodically
>> replaced. Combine it with a diluter-demand regulator or, better still,
>> one of the newer pulse-demand O2 systems and it will help at altitude
>> too.
>>
>> Of course one could always just fix the problem and put on a proper
>> exhaust system.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
>> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>
>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>
>> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
>> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
It doesn't appear that anyone asserted the pilot was scud running, etc. You might
be referring to the photos and captions which seem to come from the owner
of a nearby property. He sort of implies that the pilot flew into the mountain
but this may just be the natural assumption from a non-pilot. The NTSB will
figger it out.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131372#131372
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters |
The "Barkmaster" exhaust on my 50 exits out the side of the cowling, and didn't
change the CO problem in the cockpit at all.
My airplane also has an enclosed cockpit and I can clearly see (with smoke on)
that the exhaust / smoke comes from the back of the airplane, forward to the cabin
through my aft bulkheads vents.
In flight, if I close my canopy and open the vent at the front of the Yak 50 windscreen
it tends to pressurize the cockpit and the exhaust / smoke is reduced
90%.
Tj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131382#131382
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
Well said. Bernouli's equation dictates why there is a venture effect in
fluid dynamic settings.
The O2 setup is one option as long as you are using a closed system. IE. An
Aviators mask tightly fitting on the face to prevent entrainment of ambient
cockpit air. That is then hooked to the CRU-121 diluter demand consol which
has a direct line from your 02 tank. You will have to breathe 100% O2. You
cannot use a diluter demand consol to supply the 02 set to the Normal
position. You will have to select 100% so that you have a closed system.
Otherwise, you will be inhaling mixed cockpit air because the diluter
demand consol meters air and 02 appropriate for your present barometric
pressure.
Having the little nasal prongs sticking in your nose entraining cockpit air
around the sides of the prongs is not going to you a bit of good. Look at
Carbon Monoxide as the little kid eyeing the candy jar just after Momma
told him not to take any! He can't keep his hands out of it!
Ok, Carbon Monoxide has an affinity for Hemoglobin that is on an order of
200 times that of Oxygen. Just let that Hemoglobin pass by with CO present
in the Alvoelus and it is going to win the race with 02 to the Hb box car
every time. For the system that you are speaking of to work, you have to
raise the partial pressure of Oxygen well above that of carbon monoxide.
That is the principle we use when we put someone with severe CO poisoning
in the Altitude Chamber or have them spend the night in the hospital on a
100% 02 mask get serial blood gases drawn. The nasal canula at its best will
only supply 29% 02 concentration in the nasophranyx. At 50 to 100 ppm CO,
that is not going to prevent CO poisoning, just slow it down a little.
For the personal 02 system to be effective, it has to be a closed system. I
can get the remanufactured system for roughly $3300.
I currently am using a SCUBA system for fresh air when in ground ops. If I
stay with this system, I will have to move the PTT switch from the throttle
to the stick so I talk on the radio when my mask is down.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:29 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>From your primary flight training days, remember the alternate static source
and what happened to the instruments when it was used? Cockpit pressure is
low due to the venturi effect of the slipstream flowing by. However, cruise
is not where the CO problem is. It is taxi, runup and other modes of flight
where the airspeed is low.
It seems as though the problem extends from the malicious intent of those
sympathetic to the Soviet Union trying to get back as us darn Americans. I
don't remember having this as a problem in the Pitts and Extra I've flown
in!!
Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the oxygen
sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the hemoglobin?
Doc???
Craig
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters |
Tj, Thanks. You have just confirmed my theory on the 50. One of our big
culprits is that hole our tail wheel sticks out of.
To answer the other questions of just fixing the exhaust problem. I think it
will take extending the exhaust stacks all the way to the rear of the AC.
Remember what I said in my post earlier. I measured the CO concentrations at
the wing root (on top) and on bottom along with up the side of outside of
the cockpit to the top of the canopy bow. The lowest (key word lowest) was
at the top of the canopy. The highest was at the wing root. Almost equal to
the bottom of the wing root. Now why would that be?
Guys, you are sitting in a vat of CO on the ground.
My probable next move will be to put NACA ducts on the top of the fuselage
just aft of the firewall to get fresh air to pass through the catalyst on
its way to my aviator's mask.
I guess I will do some further testing measuring the CO levels out the wing
to the tip while the YAK is idling on the ramp.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:17 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
The "Barkmaster" exhaust on my 50 exits out the side of the cowling, and
didn't change the CO problem in the cockpit at all.
My airplane also has an enclosed cockpit and I can clearly see (with smoke
on) that the exhaust / smoke comes from the back of the airplane, forward to
the cabin through my aft bulkheads vents.
In flight, if I close my canopy and open the vent at the front of the Yak 50
windscreen it tends to pressurize the cockpit and the exhaust / smoke is
reduced 90%.
Tj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131382#131382
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
Which is the lesser of the two evils? You'll either sweat to death or
suffocate from CO poisoning. At least you'll know if you're sweating to
death.:-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McGirt" <david@mcgirt.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>
> I did that, now I am hot as hell, as there is NO airflow in the cockpit,
> but
> plenty of exhaust in ground ops.. :)
>
>
> On 8/28/07 10:38 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>>
>> AND seal up all the orifices inside the wing root panels and around the
>> nose
>> gear actuator. Just doing that should reduce the CO levels considerably.
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the
>>>> oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the
>>>> hemoglobin? Doc???
>>>
>>> Unless you completely block out all external CO-containing air, it
>>> won't
>>> help. The blood's affinity for CO is hundreds of times higher than it
>>> is
>>> for O2 so the CO will bind with the hemoglobin anyway even though the
>>> concentration of CO is low and O2 is high. No, the only solution is to
>>> eliminate the CO in the inspired air.
>>>
>>> I still like the idea of the full-face mask being fed from a source of
>>> good (no CO) ambient air taken from a location known to be free of CO,
>>> perhaps out on the wing. Heck, put another pitot tube out there and use
>>> that. (You can pretend it is another .50cal. :-) That is much simpler
>>> than filters or catalysts as nothing would need to be periodically
>>> replaced. Combine it with a diluter-demand regulator or, better still,
>>> one of the newer pulse-demand O2 systems and it will help at altitude
>>> too.
>>>
>>> Of course one could always just fix the problem and put on a proper
>>> exhaust system.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
>>> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
>>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>>
>>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>>
>>> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
>>> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
>
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters |
Doc,
I was going to put the NACA duct on the top of the tail. That would put
it out of the way of the CO/smoke stream in all but the highest of
alpha. Then run the duct into the front and rear of the cockpit (not
using a mask) to pressurize the cockpit.
DaBear
Roger Kemp wrote:
>
> Tj, Thanks. You have just confirmed my theory on the 50. One of our big
> culprits is that hole our tail wheel sticks out of.
> To answer the other questions of just fixing the exhaust problem. I think it
> will take extending the exhaust stacks all the way to the rear of the AC.
> Remember what I said in my post earlier. I measured the CO concentrations at
> the wing root (on top) and on bottom along with up the side of outside of
> the cockpit to the top of the canopy bow. The lowest (key word lowest) was
> at the top of the canopy. The highest was at the wing root. Almost equal to
> the bottom of the wing root. Now why would that be?
> Guys, you are sitting in a vat of CO on the ground.
> My probable next move will be to put NACA ducts on the top of the fuselage
> just aft of the firewall to get fresh air to pass through the catalyst on
> its way to my aviator's mask.
> I guess I will do some further testing measuring the CO levels out the wing
> to the tip while the YAK is idling on the ramp.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:17 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
>
>
> The "Barkmaster" exhaust on my 50 exits out the side of the cowling, and
> didn't change the CO problem in the cockpit at all.
>
> My airplane also has an enclosed cockpit and I can clearly see (with smoke
> on) that the exhaust / smoke comes from the back of the airplane, forward to
> the cabin through my aft bulkheads vents.
>
> In flight, if I close my canopy and open the vent at the front of the Yak 50
> windscreen it tends to pressurize the cockpit and the exhaust / smoke is
> reduced 90%.
>
> Tj
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131382#131382
>
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Agree whole heartedly with what you said Terry. The best way to find out the
ifs in this case is wait on the FAA's final report. For the curious, you can
go call up the weather for that area at the time of the accident as well as
get the elevation at the impact area. While at it look a the prevailing
winds, the grade of the elevation, the presence or absence of fuel in the
tanks. Probably did since there was post impact fire. The curling of the
prop edges or in the case of wood, were they shattered indicating power was
being made a the time of the impact. The angle of the scarring on the trees
and measure the distances from the intial contact with the tree tops along
with the height at which the first contact was made with the trees. Also
measure the depth of the furrows dug by the airframe from the time it first
contacted the ground until it came to rest. Also, will need to do a 72 hour
life history on the pilot. Don't forget to look at the Radar tapes and any
communications with ATC along with interview all available witnesses.
If you do all that, then you can make a determination as to whether he was
scud running or not. Until the report is made public, all else is pure
speculation.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:57 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Va. crash
I read with interest the comments posted with the Va. photos.
First let me say that I think the pilot should buy a lottery ticket asap.He
was damn lucky to walk away from that mess.
However to assert that he was intentionally IFR , or scud running , when
this happened is a guess and is predjutial to the pilot in an investigation.
He may just as well have been legally VFR on top and had a problem that
required an immediate descent.
You can guess or second guess about this kind of accident over coffee as
much as you want, however ,we should be careful what we say about other
pilots on this list.
Terry Lewis
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
Hehe... Good point..
On 8/28/07 2:43 PM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Which is the lesser of the two evils? You'll either sweat to death or
> suffocate from CO poisoning. At least you'll know if you're sweating to
> death.:-)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David McGirt" <david@mcgirt.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>
>
>>
>> I did that, now I am hot as hell, as there is NO airflow in the cockpit,
>> but
>> plenty of exhaust in ground ops.. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/28/07 10:38 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>>>
>>> AND seal up all the orifices inside the wing root panels and around the
>>> nose
>>> gear actuator. Just doing that should reduce the CO levels considerably.
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:19 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the
>>>>> oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the
>>>>> hemoglobin? Doc???
>>>>
>>>> Unless you completely block out all external CO-containing air, it
>>>> won't
>>>> help. The blood's affinity for CO is hundreds of times higher than it
>>>> is
>>>> for O2 so the CO will bind with the hemoglobin anyway even though the
>>>> concentration of CO is low and O2 is high. No, the only solution is to
>>>> eliminate the CO in the inspired air.
>>>>
>>>> I still like the idea of the full-face mask being fed from a source of
>>>> good (no CO) ambient air taken from a location known to be free of CO,
>>>> perhaps out on the wing. Heck, put another pitot tube out there and use
>>>> that. (You can pretend it is another .50cal. :-) That is much simpler
>>>> than filters or catalysts as nothing would need to be periodically
>>>> replaced. Combine it with a diluter-demand regulator or, better still,
>>>> one of the newer pulse-demand O2 systems and it will help at altitude
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>> Of course one could always just fix the problem and put on a proper
>>>> exhaust system.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
>>>> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
>>>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>>>
>>>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>>>
>>>> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
>>>> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters |
DaBear,
You have a TW if my failing memory serves correct?
What I will plan to do with the next round of measurements is check the CO
at the top of the vertical stab as I check the levels along the wing.
A little CO is better than a lot but none is better than sum. Remember about
what I said about the decrease in the partial pressure of 02 as we climb in
altitude and the fact that CO that bound to your Hb on the ground will
potentiate the effect of hypemic hypoxia at altitude.
My theory for putting the NACA duct as near to the top back side of the
cowling at the firewall was; it is the highest point on the aircraft when
dragging its' tail and the nearest to prop for airflow. When looking at the
aircraft with smoke turned on while idling on the ground, the smoke does not
swirl up over that part of the cowling but it does eddy behind the wings and
up over the tail.
Any other thoughts on NACA duct placement? I think for the 50 and the TD,
sealing that bulkhead in front of the tail wheel strut would be of major
benefit in decreasing CO being entrained through that spot.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaBear
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
Doc,
I was going to put the NACA duct on the top of the tail. That would put
it out of the way of the CO/smoke stream in all but the highest of
alpha. Then run the duct into the front and rear of the cockpit (not
using a mask) to pressurize the cockpit.
DaBear
Roger Kemp wrote:
>
> Tj, Thanks. You have just confirmed my theory on the 50. One of our big
> culprits is that hole our tail wheel sticks out of.
> To answer the other questions of just fixing the exhaust problem. I think
it
> will take extending the exhaust stacks all the way to the rear of the AC.
> Remember what I said in my post earlier. I measured the CO concentrations
at
> the wing root (on top) and on bottom along with up the side of outside of
> the cockpit to the top of the canopy bow. The lowest (key word lowest)
was
> at the top of the canopy. The highest was at the wing root. Almost equal
to
> the bottom of the wing root. Now why would that be?
> Guys, you are sitting in a vat of CO on the ground.
> My probable next move will be to put NACA ducts on the top of the fuselage
> just aft of the firewall to get fresh air to pass through the catalyst on
> its way to my aviator's mask.
> I guess I will do some further testing measuring the CO levels out the
wing
> to the tip while the YAK is idling on the ramp.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:17 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
>
>
> The "Barkmaster" exhaust on my 50 exits out the side of the cowling, and
> didn't change the CO problem in the cockpit at all.
>
> My airplane also has an enclosed cockpit and I can clearly see (with smoke
> on) that the exhaust / smoke comes from the back of the airplane, forward
to
> the cabin through my aft bulkheads vents.
>
> In flight, if I close my canopy and open the vent at the front of the Yak
50
> windscreen it tends to pressurize the cockpit and the exhaust / smoke is
> reduced 90%.
>
> Tj
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131382#131382
>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
That's the understatement of the year.
Mark Bittelich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:57
Subject: Yak-List: Va. crash
I read with interest the comments posted with the Va. photos.
First let me say that I think the pilot should buy a lottery ticket
asap.He was damn lucky to walk away from that mess.
However to assert that he was intentionally IFR , or scud running , when
this happened is a guess and is predjutial to the pilot in an
investigation.
He may just as well have been legally VFR on top and had a problem that
required an immediate descent.
You can guess or second guess about this kind of accident over coffee as
much as you want, however ,we should be careful what we say about other
pilots on this list.
Terry Lewis
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Although I think we now know what it takes to tear the wing off a Yak..
Damn..
I could picture Sergey (burned and broken bones) telling the guy how to
drive down the mountain in his broken English though.. Hehe
On 8/28/07 5:07 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> That's the understatement of the year.
>
> Mark Bittelich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:57
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Va. crash
>
> I read with interest the comments posted with the Va. photos.
>
> First let me say that I think the pilot should buy a lottery ticket
> asap.He was damn lucky to walk away from that mess.
>
> However to assert that he was intentionally IFR , or scud running , when
> this happened is a guess and is predjutial to the pilot in an
> investigation.
>
> He may just as well have been legally VFR on top and had a problem that
> required an immediate descent.
>
> You can guess or second guess about this kind of accident over coffee as
> much as you want, however ,we should be careful what we say about other
> pilots on this list.
> Terry Lewis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
On Aug 28, 2007, at 11:43 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Which is the lesser of the two evils? You'll either sweat to
> death or suffocate from CO poisoning. At least you'll know if
> you're sweating to death.:-)
Seems to me that there are two problems with some overlap:
1. CO from the exhaust in the cockpit;
2. lack of cooling air in the cockpit.
Seems both problems should be addressed.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters |
Doc,
Haven't taken the plunge on a TW. I still have the nosedragger
Yak-Chang (CJ with the M14). Hence why I thought the top of the tail
would be good. I realized from your post, that you are probably right
that for a TW a great place would be top back side of the cowling.
I'm wondering if I would do anything to help airflow with a ducted fan
in the NACA duct during ground ops?
While I like the idea of adding O2 for cross country flight over 6-8k.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of a mask or the associated microphone
issues.
Dabear
Roger Kemp wrote:
>
> DaBear,
> You have a TW if my failing memory serves correct?
> What I will plan to do with the next round of measurements is check the CO
> at the top of the vertical stab as I check the levels along the wing.
> A little CO is better than a lot but none is better than sum. Remember about
> what I said about the decrease in the partial pressure of 02 as we climb in
> altitude and the fact that CO that bound to your Hb on the ground will
> potentiate the effect of hypemic hypoxia at altitude.
> My theory for putting the NACA duct as near to the top back side of the
> cowling at the firewall was; it is the highest point on the aircraft when
> dragging its' tail and the nearest to prop for airflow. When looking at the
> aircraft with smoke turned on while idling on the ground, the smoke does not
> swirl up over that part of the cowling but it does eddy behind the wings and
> up over the tail.
> Any other thoughts on NACA duct placement? I think for the 50 and the TD,
> sealing that bulkhead in front of the tail wheel strut would be of major
> benefit in decreasing CO being entrained through that spot.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaBear
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:35 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
>
>
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters |
DaBear,
Copy. Putting the NACA duct on the top of the tail probably is a idea as
long as it does not interfere with the structural integrity of the vertical
stab. I believe BJ Kenmore put a NACA duct in front of the windscreen.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaBear
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
Doc,
Haven't taken the plunge on a TW. I still have the nosedragger
Yak-Chang (CJ with the M14). Hence why I thought the top of the tail
would be good. I realized from your post, that you are probably right
that for a TW a great place would be top back side of the cowling.
I'm wondering if I would do anything to help airflow with a ducted fan
in the NACA duct during ground ops?
While I like the idea of adding O2 for cross country flight over 6-8k.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of a mask or the associated microphone
issues.
Dabear
Roger Kemp wrote:
>
> DaBear,
> You have a TW if my failing memory serves correct?
> What I will plan to do with the next round of measurements is check the CO
> at the top of the vertical stab as I check the levels along the wing.
> A little CO is better than a lot but none is better than sum. Remember
about
> what I said about the decrease in the partial pressure of 02 as we climb
in
> altitude and the fact that CO that bound to your Hb on the ground will
> potentiate the effect of hypemic hypoxia at altitude.
> My theory for putting the NACA duct as near to the top back side of the
> cowling at the firewall was; it is the highest point on the aircraft when
> dragging its' tail and the nearest to prop for airflow. When looking at
the
> aircraft with smoke turned on while idling on the ground, the smoke does
not
> swirl up over that part of the cowling but it does eddy behind the wings
and
> up over the tail.
> Any other thoughts on NACA duct placement? I think for the 50 and the TD,
> sealing that bulkhead in front of the tail wheel strut would be of major
> benefit in decreasing CO being entrained through that spot.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaBear
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:35 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Carbon Monoxide Filters
>
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|