---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/27/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:11 AM - Aircraft acquisition and FAA (Ira Saligman) 2. 04:52 AM - Re: Re: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F (A. Dennis Savarese) 3. 05:10 AM - Re: Flap storage (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 05:10 AM - Re: Aircraft acquisition and FAA (A. Dennis Savarese) 5. 05:41 AM - Re: Chicago area accident? (Jim Bernier) 6. 06:01 AM - Re: Chicago area accident? (cjpilot710@aol.com) 7. 06:23 AM - Re: Chicago area accident? (Stephen Fox) 8. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F (Genzlinger, Reade) 9. 09:04 AM - Events (Jill Gernetzke) 10. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F () 11. 10:12 AM - Re: Engine Monitor (Barry Hancock) 12. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Brian Lloyd) 13. 12:02 PM - Re: Engine Monitoring (Mark Scrivener) 14. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Roger Kemp) 15. 02:24 PM - Re: Engine Monitoring (Denis Ischenko) 16. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 17. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 18. 03:21 PM - The Memphis 100 Air Race (Jeff Linebaugh) 19. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Brian Lloyd) 20. 06:27 PM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Brian Lloyd) 21. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Engine Monitoring (Roger Kemp) 22. 07:21 PM - Marooned in Wilmington, NC (ByronMFox@aol.com) 23. 08:05 PM - Re: Marooned in Wilmington, NC (viperdoc) 24. 10:04 PM - Re: Marooned in Wilmington, NC (KingCJ6@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:56 AM PST US From: "Ira Saligman" Subject: Yak-List: Aircraft acquisition and FAA In the event one buys an aircraft outside of their FSDO, are there any requirements to ferry it to the home FSDO? At the moment on acquisition you could have an experimental not under the "guidance": of any FSDO. Ira Saligman o 610 940 0420 c 610 324 5500 f 215 243 7699 isaligman@Saligman.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:12 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F Reade, Everything that is applicable to that specific including the 300/600 NM proficiency area will be written in the aircraft's operating limitations. My guess would be because the OL's were issued prior to 1993, there are no restrictions/no 300/600 NM proficiency area. ie: "pre-moratorium" aircraft. Anyone who has a pre-moratorium aircraft is very lucky because the OL's were written under a different FAA Order. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Genzlinger, Reade" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:54 AM Subject: Yak-List: RE: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F > > Dennis: > > Question re: 8130 and Op Lim Letter issued in 1990 - > > Would an aircraft (e.g. Harvard Mark IV) that was issued its > airworthiness cert. and operation limit letter in the exhibition/show > category in 1990 be subject to the 300/600 mile proficiency area? There > is nothing in the letter relating to this at all. In fact it is the > most unencumbered OL that I have seen. I realize this may be a mute > point with the issuance of the 9-11-07 FAA memo but I am curious as to > what is required to re-register such an aircraft as I believe the rules > were different in 1990. > > Reade > > Reade Genzlinger > Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation > mailto:readeg@cairnwood.com > 215.914.0370 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis > Savarese > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:34 PM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:31 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flap storage Another simple mod for the ball on the flap handle is to remove it and put 4 flats around the ball at the 0, 90, 180, 270 degree positions. This makes the ball feel completely different than the gear handle. Easy to do on a bench grinder and takes less than 5 minutes. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Bolton" Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flap storage > > Glad to see that I am not alone in this Club > > Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Lloyd" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:16 PM > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flap storage > > >> >> >> On Sep 24, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Hans Oortman 1 wrote: >> >>> John. Ref Pappy's comment: >>> >>> >>> >>> Especially the bold part "by looking at it" is important..I know.I >>> found out the hard way. >> >> It is funny how so many people have made the same mistake of thinking >> they are raising the flaps and instead raise the gear. You would think >> that, since there are nowhere near each other, this failure mode would >> be infrequent but for some reason it is not. The best insurance is to >> ensure that you slide the gear-lock slide in place as soon as you place >> the gear lever in the down position regardless of the reason. >> >> (I *KNOW* that religious use of the gear slide-lock *WILL* save your >> airplane's belly. Please do not ask me how I know this.) >> >> -- >> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive >> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 >> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) >> >> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . >> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry >> >> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C >> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:31 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aircraft acquisition and FAA MessageIra, An aircraft remains under the "guidance" of the FSDO which has jurisdiction over the aircraft's home base airport until such time as the aircraft's Operating Limitations are updated to reflect a new home base airport and a new Special Airworthiness Certificate is issued. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Ira Saligman To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:11 AM Subject: Yak-List: Aircraft acquisition and FAA In the event one buys an aircraft outside of their FSDO, are there any requirements to ferry it to the home FSDO? At the moment on acquisition you could have an experimental not under the "guidance": of any FSDO. Ira Saligman o 610 940 0420 c 610 324 5500 f 215 243 7699 isaligman@Saligman.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:44 AM PST US From: "Jim Bernier" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chicago area accident? Pappy Sorry to say that it is true. See attached article from the Chicago Tribune. Jim B >>> 9/26/2007 8:39 PM >>> Troops I pass this on to the list. Anyone hear about a accident around Chicago area?? Pappy ___________________________________________________________________________ ____________ I have heard from a couple of different sources that a Yak crashed near Chicago last month with 2 fatalities. Please ask around the Red Star community and if you get confirmation, let me know. This is something the RPA needs to be on top of, if its true. Alan -------------- Original message from cjpilot710@aol.com: -------------- In a message dated 9/25/2007 11:05:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, yakpilot@bellsouth.net writes: Alan, Not at all. This is the first I've heard of it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby Jim Do you have any details on the recent Yk-52 crash in Illionois? Alan See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. ===================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:26 AM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chicago area accident? In a message dated 9/27/2007 8:45:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JBernier@dart.org writes: I must have missed this while out flying the bombers. To bad. Does anyone have any verified info on what caused the engine to quit? Pappy Pappy Sorry to say that it is true. See attached article from the Chicago Tribune. Jim B >>> 9/26/2007 8:39 PM >>> Troops I pass this on to the list. Anyone hear about a accident around Chicago area?? Pappy ______________________________________________________________________________ _________ I have heard from a couple of different sources that a Yak crashed near Chicago last month with 2 fatalities. Please ask around the Red Star community and if you get confirmation, let me know. This is something the RPA needs to be on top of, if its true. Alan -------------- Original message from cjpilot710@aol.com: -------------- In a message dated 9/25/2007 11:05:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, yakpilot@bellsouth.net writes: Alan, Not at all. This is the first I've heard of it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby Jim Do you have any details on the recent Yk-52 crash in Illionois? Alan ____________________________________ See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List nics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:13 AM PST US From: Stephen Fox Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chicago area accident? Not yet. Steve On Sep 27, 2007, at 8:57 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have any verified info on what caused the engine to quit? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F From: "Genzlinger, Reade" Thanks, Dennis - I recall reading about the "pre-moratorium" status aircraft on the list several years ago but since my Yak is 1996 I never really paid any attention to it. The letter on this particular aircraft is one page long and as you said, it seems to be a very lucky situation. Frankly, it is a much more reasonable letter than today's letters although the rescission of the proficiency area restriction is a great leap forward. So it is my understanding that a "pre-moratorium" certificated aircraft is treated like a normal category aircraft in a change of ownership i.e. the Airworthiness Cert. and Op. Limit Letter go with the aircraft. Other than re-registering is there anything else one would need to do? Reade Reade Genzlinger Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation mailto:readeg@cairnwood.com 215.914.0370 -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:51 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F Reade, Everything that is applicable to that specific including the 300/600 NM proficiency area will be written in the aircraft's operating limitations. My guess would be because the OL's were issued prior to 1993, there are no restrictions/no 300/600 NM proficiency area. ie: "pre-moratorium" aircraft. Anyone who has a pre-moratorium aircraft is very lucky because the OL's were written under a different FAA Order. Dennis ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:55 AM PST US From: Jill Gernetzke Subject: Yak-List: Events Group, A couple of items: The Kingman Air & Auto Show will be held October 6th and 7th. Any Yak/CJ owner coming in to the show is welcome to come on over for burgers, brats and dogs on Saturday for lunch. We are located across from Straube's paint shop. Some may recall that in June 2005 I sponsored a group of Russian WWII lady air veterans to this country. This was hands down the most rewarding event in my life. If any of you missed meeting these extraordinary women, you have another chance. Galina Brok-Beltsova (Pe-2 navigator/bombadier), Yelena Kulkova-Malutina (Pe-2 pilot) and Anna Kirilina (Pe-2 armament mechanic) are scheduled to appear at the Museum of Flight in Seattle on October 13th/ They will be there for the premiere of the new book, Flying for Her Country - a book about the WASPs and the Russian air veterans. For those of you that may not know, there were 3 female air regiments during WWII. These women were combat pilots, radio operators, aircraft mechanics, armament mechanics, whatever it took. I could go on for pages. The WASPs will also be in attendance at this event. Jill Gernetzke M-14P, Incorporated 4905 Flightline Drive Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417 (928)-681-4400 Fax(928)681-4404 www.m-14p.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:03 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: FAA Memorandum - 8130.2F Actually there is a line in the current order that says that for any aircraft licensed before a date in 1992, this order does not apply. There was no previous order relating to experimental exhibition aircraft. EB ---- "A. Dennis Savarese" wrote: > > Reade, > Everything that is applicable to that specific including the 300/600 NM > proficiency area will be written in the aircraft's operating limitations. > My guess would be because the OL's were issued prior to 1993, there are no > restrictions/no 300/600 NM proficiency area. ie: "pre-moratorium" aircraft. > Anyone who has a pre-moratorium aircraft is very lucky because the OL's were > written under a different FAA Order. > Dennis > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:59 AM PST US From: Barry Hancock Subject: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitor I have done a LOT of reserach on this for customers and for my own CJs. Here is my take: JPI does make a 9 cyl unit, but it's graphical and user interface are at least 2 generations behind other units available. It is also very expensive. Electronics International makes a nice unit. They will adapt to whatever you want (including 9 cyl., pneumatic pressure, etc.). http://www.buy-ei.com/ We've worked with Blue Mountain to fully develop their engine pod to adapt to our engines, including figuring out all the sensors required for our engines, developing a CHT probe and mounting location (under air shower port), etc. If you are looking to combine an engine monitor with substantial EFIS capability (they have a really slick auto pilot now, too), BMA is now our first choice in the "best value" department. Yes, BMA has had performance and reliability issues with earlier units, but their G4 has corrected all of those issues and is very robust and reliable from our experience. www.bluemountainavionics.com The cutting edge unit is from Vertical Power. It would take me too long to describe, but it is truly the next step in aircraft monitoring. Check it out at www.verticalpower.com. There are a dozen other choices out there, but we've determined the above to provide the best combination of quality, value, capability, and user friendliness. There are other units out there that you may like better... Cheers, Barry Barry Hancock Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. office (909) 606-4444 cell - -(949) 300-5510 www.worldwidewarbirds.com www.cj6.com (NEW sites coming in October) On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: > JP instruments makes a 9 cylinder monitor. I do not have any > experience with > it though. > Not sure what I would know what to do it the 1st through 3rd cylinder > head > temp exceeded 200 C bumping into the Red while #4 read 180 C. > Doc ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:03 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: > > > JP instruments makes a 9 cylinder monitor. I do not have any > experience with > it though. > Not sure what I would know what to do it the 1st through 3rd > cylinder head > temp exceeded 200 C bumping into the Red while #4 read 180 C. Well, I think I would open the gills some more, enrichen the mixture, and possibly reduce power to keep the hottest CHTs in the green. And as for Dynon, well, you could monitor six of the nine cyclinders. If you are using the stock instrumenation, right now you are only monitoring two (one for the front seat and one for the rear seat) and no EGT at all. So even if the Dynon is not perfect, you could monitor more. And if you feel like doing more of a hack, you could add a 4-cyl CHT/ EGT switch and use it to select one of the remaining four cylinders and feed that into the sixth thermocouple channel. -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:29 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring From: "Mark Scrivener" I've used the JPI for several years now on my Mooney 231. Very nice to have, esp on a fuel injected Turbo and the fact that it has fuel flow tied in with my GPS. Oh, and you can set an alarm on any parameter (both high and low limits) - which helps if miss something in your scan. That said, I'm not sure how useful it would be on my Yak 52. I can't adjust mixture (at least in flight), so I'm not going to lean with it, I don't have fuel injectors, so it won't tell me about a clogged injector, and I tend to fly with the vents 100% open most of the time (to keep CHT down) - so about all it will tell me is to lower the nose or reduce power - which I can tell from the single gauge. I guess it would give you indication of a stuck valve or other conditions resulting in sub-par cylinder performance - which would be nice, but you are going to wire 18 temp probes just for CHT/EGT on each cylinder. Seems like a lot of work for little gain... -Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136839#136839 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:22 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring Daammmnnnneeeedddd! Did not think of jiving up the Dynon (I have a D10 in the 50). Mixture is pretty well set. Opening the gills, pulling the power back, leveling off or descending (diving) is about all can be done in the 50 or 52 to lower the cylinder head temps. (Along with making sure that the oil cooler door is wide open also). My point was, we monitor the cylinder with the master crank but it tends to be 20 to 30 degrees cooler than 9 through 3. I can take laser temp measurements as soon as I shut down and see 20-30 degree differences between 1 and 4. Those 3 cylinders on top run hotter than the others universally. It would be nice to see the temp from one of those cylinders during flight but still monitor the #4 too. That is easily doable I know. Just have to many other projects going on to worry with that right now. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: > > > JP instruments makes a 9 cylinder monitor. I do not have any > experience with > it though. > Not sure what I would know what to do it the 1st through 3rd > cylinder head > temp exceeded 200 C bumping into the Red while #4 read 180 C. Well, I think I would open the gills some more, enrichen the mixture, and possibly reduce power to keep the hottest CHTs in the green. And as for Dynon, well, you could monitor six of the nine cyclinders. If you are using the stock instrumenation, right now you are only monitoring two (one for the front seat and one for the rear seat) and no EGT at all. So even if the Dynon is not perfect, you could monitor more. And if you feel like doing more of a hack, you could add a 4-cyl CHT/ EGT switch and use it to select one of the remaining four cylinders and feed that into the sixth thermocouple channel. -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:19 PM PST US From: "Denis Ischenko" Subject: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring I have now flown some 60 hours behind a Grand Rapids Technologies EFIS/EIS Horizon 1 system in an 18T. Thought I'd throw my 2 cents-worth, although my situation is different to that of most other listers' -- I use the plane primarily as a tourer (IFR capable, albeit I am not yet) and its panel is huge compared to that of other Yaks and CJs. The size of the panel allowed me to put in a two-screen system and to leave all native Russian engine gauges plus most of the Russian flight instruments as a backup. However, I feel even one screen would be great. First, the 9-cylinder issue. The GRT 9-cyl model is adapted from a 6-cyl one and therefore can only display 12 temperatures. 9 are allocated to EGT's and 3 to CHTs. There is a selector that allows to switch the CHTs between cylinders 1/2/3, 4/5/6 and 7/8/9. What is really handy is that you can toggle between a page with usual bar charts and one with time-graphs (and several other pages). The time graphs display two sets of lines (3 CHTs and 9 EGTs), all of different color, over the last 120 seconds (time is selectable). So when I approach the water (I am in England) or the mountains this is where I look before committing. I am not an expert but I've been told that a bad plug and many other problems should promptly show on the EGT graph. Another "peace of mind" feature is what any engine monitor has -- alarms. The limits for each parameter are easily programmable (including things like max difference between EGTs and max rate of CHT cooling), and when a parameter hits its limit a warning starts flashing on the screen (impossible not to notice, but not so intrusive as to alert my passengers). My pilot experience is on the rookie side, and I have to admit that I would have probably cooked my engine by now if I did not have these alarms. Other things I like: can test my mags in flight by switching the EIS RPM feed between mags; can check air pressure in the air cylinder without pressurizing the system; fuel flow feature is indispensable for a tourer (although watching that low miles-per-liter number can be depressing, especially at European avgas prices). And the graphics is pretty cool imho, especially since GRT revamped the engine monitor pages. By the way, at my request GRT added the functionality to use Russian units, so what I see on the EIS agrees with the native gauges (and even all labels have been converted to metric, if not into Russian:). Now the bad news (which I suspect would kill it for many): the needles on manifold pressure and RPM dials on the screen take some fraction of a second longer to react than the corresponding native gauges. I find myself looking at the native gauges rather than the EIS when changing manifold/prop, especially at critical flight stages... Overall though I am very pleased with the system. There are lots of other cool and very useful features, and the flight instrumentation and nav sides are truly amazing (it comes with terrain; HITS synthetic approaches -- GRT even programmed in the small airfield I am based at which was not in the standard database; wind indicator; g-meter; flight path vector; lots of other good stuff). Hope this helps... Denis ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Doc, Hubie Tolson put a single EGT gage in his Sukhoi-31 with a switch that allows you to switch to any one of the 9 and see what is going on. This is "almost" what Brian was talking about. I've talked to him and he says that the amazing thing is that the cylinders that run hot on the ground are NOT the ones that run hot while in the air! I do not have any more details than that... But I found that fact rather interesting! Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 16:31 Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring Daammmnnnneeeedddd! Did not think of jiving up the Dynon (I have a D10 in the 50). Mixture is pretty well set. Opening the gills, pulling the power back, leveling off or descending (diving) is about all can be done in the 50 or 52 to lower the cylinder head temps. (Along with making sure that the oil cooler door is wide open also). My point was, we monitor the cylinder with the master crank but it tends to be 20 to 30 degrees cooler than 9 through 3. I can take laser temp measurements as soon as I shut down and see 20-30 degree differences between 1 and 4. Those 3 cylinders on top run hotter than the others universally. It would be nice to see the temp from one of those cylinders during flight but still monitor the #4 too. That is easily doable I know. Just have to many other projects going on to worry with that right now. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: > > > JP instruments makes a 9 cylinder monitor. I do not have any > experience with it though. > Not sure what I would know what to do it the 1st through 3rd cylinder > head temp exceeded 200 C bumping into the Red while #4 read 180 C. Well, I think I would open the gills some more, enrichen the mixture, and possibly reduce power to keep the hottest CHTs in the green. And as for Dynon, well, you could monitor six of the nine cyclinders. If you are using the stock instrumenation, right now you are only monitoring two (one for the front seat and one for the rear seat) and no EGT at all. So even if the Dynon is not perfect, you could monitor more. And if you feel like doing more of a hack, you could add a 4-cyl CHT/ EGT switch and use it to select one of the remaining four cylinders and feed that into the sixth thermocouple channel. -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Just a comment. I'd be curious what others have to say about Cylinder Head temps. I personally am a strong believer that they should be kept "medium hot". Meaning, a minimum of middle to above middle of green. I've found that the Russian piston rings expand quite significantly with heat. Running the engine .. Not hot... But "warmish" (to coin a new word) keeps the oil cleaner, and also reduces lead deposits on the exhaust valves. I'd be curious as to other peoples experiences. Of course, this also opens the door to discussing the merits of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL! :-) Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Scrivener Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 15:01 Subject: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring --> I've used the JPI for several years now on my Mooney 231. Very nice to have, esp on a fuel injected Turbo and the fact that it has fuel flow tied in with my GPS. Oh, and you can set an alarm on any parameter (both high and low limits) - which helps if miss something in your scan. That said, I'm not sure how useful it would be on my Yak 52. I can't adjust mixture (at least in flight), so I'm not going to lean with it, I don't have fuel injectors, so it won't tell me about a clogged injector, and I tend to fly with the vents 100% open most of the time (to keep CHT down) - so about all it will tell me is to lower the nose or reduce power - which I can tell from the single gauge. I guess it would give you indication of a stuck valve or other conditions resulting in sub-par cylinder performance - which would be nice, but you are going to wire 18 temp probes just for CHT/EGT on each cylinder. Seems like a lot of work for little gain... -Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136839#136839 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:28 PM PST US From: "Jeff Linebaugh" Subject: Yak-List: The Memphis 100 Air Race The Memphis 100 is coming! Come join us for the fun! When: October 27th Where: DeWitt Spain Airport (M01), Memphis, TN What: The Memphis 100 is an Official Sport Air Racing League sanctioned eventIt is for ALL aircraft, from Cubs to Unlimiteds, run on a 100 mile triangular course, with staggered starts. No formation experience required! Racers are split into categories for fair, friendly competition. Come run hard, or enjoy the scenery and camaraderie! Who: You! Hosted by the Memphis CAF. Breakfast by the Memphis EAA. For more information or registration contact: Rick Pellicciotti: rick@rocket-boys.com 901 481-1934 Jeff Linebaugh: jeff@rocket-boys.com 901 606-6735 Hope to see you all there! Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh@bellsouth.net ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:31 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring On Sep 27, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: > > > Daammmnnnneeeedddd! Did not think of jiving up the Dynon (I have a > D10 in > the 50). I don't understand what you just wrote. > Mixture is pretty well set. In an M14, right. In a Huosai you do have a mixture control to fiddle with. My comment was meant to be generic. > Opening the gills, pulling the power > back, leveling off or descending (diving) is about all can be done > in the 50 > or 52 to lower the cylinder head temps. (Along with making sure > that the oil > cooler door is wide open also). Right. > My point was, we monitor the cylinder with > the master crank but it tends to be 20 to 30 degrees cooler than 9 > through > 3. I can take laser temp measurements as soon as I shut down and > see 20-30 > degree differences between 1 and 4. Those 3 cylinders on top run > hotter than > the others universally. Then that is where the CHT probe(s) should be. > It would be nice to see the temp from one of those cylinders during > flight > but still monitor the #4 too. That is easily doable I know. Just > have to > many other projects going on to worry with that right now. When all you have is one probe, the goal is to get it on the hottest cylinder. Since the M14P does not have a mixture control, there isn't a lot of use for an EGT. So, yeah, I would put one CHT on the cylinder that the manufacturer uses, and then I would try to instrument the cylinders known to be hottest. -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:52 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring On Sep 27, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote: > Point, MALS-14 64E" > > Doc, Hubie Tolson put a single EGT gage in his Sukhoi-31 with a > switch that allows you to switch to any one of the 9 and see what > is going on. This is "almost" what Brian was talking about. I've > talked to him and he says that the amazing thing is that the > cylinders that run hot on the ground are NOT the ones that run hot > while in the air! I do not have any more details than that... But > I found that fact rather interesting! The problem with EGT is that it tells you a LOT less than you think it does. First, it is a relative indication. Comparing absolute EGT numbers from two cylinders is totally meaningless. There are only two things that are meaningful in an EGT: 1. when the EGT peaks tells you when the cylinder has reached best stoichiometric mixture; 2. a sudden change in EGT that does not correspond to you fiddling with some engine control tells you something has happened in your engine (but not what). Relative changes in EGT can let you know which cylinders are leaner or richer. And seeing sudden changes in EGT only works if you are monitoring them all. OTOH, CHT tells you how long your cylinders are going to last. Run them cool and they will live longer. I find CHT to be much more meaningful to how I run my engine than EGT. If I had a choice of monitoring all my CHT -or- all my EGT, I would want full CHT monitoring. So with a monitor with 12 thermocouple inputs for a 9-cyl radial I would have 9 CHT and an EGT for each exhaust manifold. But that's just me. -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:25 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring Brian/Mark, Copy both. It is a project for a lousy winter day when I have not got anything else to do. Since the EGT probe is on the #4 cylinder (master crank) I'll leave that one alone. As you said Mark, it would be nice to see what cylinders are hottest in the air. Anyone have that trend. I can tell you which ones are hot on the ground after a ground runup for maintenance or after taxiing in with a misfire. The thermal laser temp gauge does come in handy for finding you cool cylinder then it becomes easier to chase down the reason for the misfire by looking at all the usual suspects. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine Monitoring On Sep 27, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: > > > Daammmnnnneeeedddd! Did not think of jiving up the Dynon (I have a > D10 in > the 50). I don't understand what you just wrote. > Mixture is pretty well set. In an M14, right. In a Huosai you do have a mixture control to fiddle with. My comment was meant to be generic. > Opening the gills, pulling the power > back, leveling off or descending (diving) is about all can be done > in the 50 > or 52 to lower the cylinder head temps. (Along with making sure > that the oil > cooler door is wide open also). Right. > My point was, we monitor the cylinder with > the master crank but it tends to be 20 to 30 degrees cooler than 9 > through > 3. I can take laser temp measurements as soon as I shut down and > see 20-30 > degree differences between 1 and 4. Those 3 cylinders on top run > hotter than > the others universally. Then that is where the CHT probe(s) should be. > It would be nice to see the temp from one of those cylinders during > flight > but still monitor the #4 too. That is easily doable I know. Just > have to > many other projects going on to worry with that right now. When all you have is one probe, the goal is to get it on the hottest cylinder. Since the M14P does not have a mixture control, there isn't a lot of use for an EGT. So, yeah, I would put one CHT on the cylinder that the manufacturer uses, and then I would try to instrument the cylinders known to be hottest. -- Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:21 PM PST US From: ByronMFox@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: Marooned in Wilmington, NC Here for a wedding and surrounded by golfers who know not an aileron from an elevator. Help! Any RPAers nearby? ...Blitz ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:40 PM PST US From: "viperdoc" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Marooned in Wilmington, NC Feel your pain! You are just 3 states away! Mark Bitterlich is up at Cherry Point but that is one of those 50's though. Shane Golden is in Aiken, S.C. That's roughly 150 away. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:20 PM Subject: Yak-List: Marooned in Wilmington, NC Here for a wedding and surrounded by golfers who know not an aileron from an elevator. Help! Any RPAers nearby? ...Blitz _____ See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:30 PM PST US From: KingCJ6@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Marooned in Wilmington, NC Blitz - check with your personal PR hack, I'm sure he/she can get you on the local TV station to plead your case. D In a message dated 9/27/2007 7:23:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ByronMFox@aol.com writes: Here for a wedding and surrounded by golfers who know not an aileron from an elevator. Help! Any RPAers nearby? ...Blitz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.