Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:19 AM - Re: yak 50 (Tim Gagnon)
2. 05:18 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 10/29/07 (Barry Hancock)
3. 05:18 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 10/29/07 (Barry Hancock)
4. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Roger Kemp)
5. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (A. Dennis Savarese)
6. 08:09 AM - Re: yak 50 (Dave Jester)
7. 08:22 AM - Re: yak 50 (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 08:26 AM - Re: yak 50 (GreasySideUp)
9. 08:42 AM - Re: yak 50 (Dave Jester)
10. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Roger Kemp)
11. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Roger Kemp)
12. 09:40 AM - Re: A26 (mikspin)
13. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (viperdoc)
14. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: A26 (dontmesswtexas@yahoo.com)
15. 11:08 AM - Re: yak 50 (GreasySideUp)
16. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (A. Dennis Savarese)
17. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Dave Jester)
18. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Ron Davis)
19. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Stephen Fox)
20. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (ByronMFox@aol.com)
21. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (viperdoc)
22. 01:24 PM - Re: yak 50 (Walter Lannon)
23. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (David McGirt)
24. 01:58 PM - Re: yak 50 (Dave Jester)
25. 02:00 PM - Re: yak 50 (David McGirt)
26. 02:18 PM - Re: yak 50 (Dave Jester)
27. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (hkgibby@yahoo.com)
28. 04:04 PM - Re: yak 50 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
29. 04:25 PM - Re: yak 50 (A. Dennis Savarese)
30. 04:47 PM - Re: yak 50 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
31. 05:11 PM - Re: yak 50 (Dave Jester)
32. 05:27 PM - Re: yak 50 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
33. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
34. 07:51 PM - Cj-6a Manuals (matt salkeld)
35. 08:04 PM - Yak-50 (Jim Selby)
36. 09:10 PM - Re: Re: yak 50 (Roger Kemp)
37. 09:48 PM - Re: yak 50 (Herb Coussons)
Message 1
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I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these birds
and their pilots.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142701#142701
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 10/29/07 |
On Oct 29, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> Time: 07:34:40 PM PST US
> From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>
> Bdog,
>
> You know anything about this? Any more details? Should be if it
> happened on
> the 6th.
>
> Doc
I know more through second hand accounts. I know the players, both
very experienced guys. I will not comment further but hope that
those involved will step up to provide a great learning opportunity
for others that could save lives....
Bdog
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
office (714) 730-3958
cell (949) 300-5510
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
www.cj6.com
The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 10/29/07 |
On Oct 29, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> Time: 07:34:40 PM PST US
> From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>
> Bdog,
>
> You know anything about this? Any more details? Should be if it
> happened on
> the 6th.
>
> Doc
I know more through second hand accounts. I know the players, both
very experienced guys. I will not comment further but hope that
those involved will step up to provide a great learning opportunity
for others that could save lives....
Bdog
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
office (714) 730-3958
cell (949) 300-5510
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
www.cj6.com
The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for
the personal and confidential use of the designated recipients. If
the reader of this message is not an intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any review, use, dissemination, forwarding or
copying of this message is strictly prohibited. Please notify us
immediately by reply e-mail or telephone, and delete the original
message and all attachments from your system. Thank you
Message 4
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According to the NTSB report the pilots are ok but the birds did not fair so
well. If you read the report, look at the winds.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:19 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these
birds and their pilots.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142701#142701
Message 5
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The winds were almost straight down the runway at 13 knots gusting to 17
knots; 260 degrees with the runway heading of 270 degrees. I'm just glad
they are OK.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:28 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
> According to the NTSB report the pilots are ok but the birds did not fair
> so
> well. If you read the report, look at the winds.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:19 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
> I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these
> birds and their pilots.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142701#142701
>
>
>
Message 6
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Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail wheel
group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a couple of
YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a
formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
Message 7
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You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor
visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it
was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do
formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they
practice it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail
wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a couple
of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a
formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
Message 8
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Does FAST have regulations or guidance regarding formation landings? Examples
including min runway width, Xwind limitations, Wingtip spacing, centerline is
a brick wall etc? There have been a couple of bumps on landings lately, I wonder
what soft rules if any are being broken.
-j
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142741#142741
Message 9
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In all my formation training, they preached against section landings in
tail wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for FAST that I
am aware of and I would not attempt it. It is far too easy to lose
directional control and prang the airplane. It is much better to
stagger land with separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide
runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a
not so wide runway). That would allow for a margin of safety should one
of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out. I wasn't there so
I am not passing judgment; I just believe that planes shouldn't "bump"
on the runway.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor
visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it
was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do
formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they
practice it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a
tail wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a
couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number
four in a formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 10
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What I was refering to with the winds comment was that the 50 is a floater anyway
if you carry any extra over the fence. Add about 10-12 knots in the face and
even though your landing speed is on the money she is still going to float.
For a 2 point you are carrying about 30-40 klicks extra anyway. At least that
is my technique. Even though you have 10-17 kts 10 deg off the nose, that is a
double edged sword. It will give you extra drag slowing your approach down but
it is also giving extra lift even if you are a draggy airplane but the 50 is
not a draggy airplane. It has a high lift wing with excellent low speed characteristics.
She's gonna float in this setting where you are carrying extra airspeed
for a wheels landing. That is also the only way you can keep a visual on
your wingman if doing an element landing. If you bring that 50 down the glide
slope in a 3 point attitude your are not going to see crap over the nose until
you look 30-35 deg off the side of the nose. I certainly can't do an element
landing in the 3 point attitude, well maybe if I have a 500 ft wide runway, maybe.
Nobody is saying these guys were trying to do a formation 3 point at all. All the
details are not out yet and no judgement is being passed with these comments.
It is only my observation from my limited esperience in the 50 taht I waould
not be trying a n element landing.
I personally am not comfortable doing formation landings in the 50. Low approaches
are one thing but not landings.
-----Original Message-----
>From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2007 7:40 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
>The winds were almost straight down the runway at 13 knots gusting to 17
>knots; 260 degrees with the runway heading of 270 degrees. I'm just glad
>they are OK.
>Dennis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:28 AM
>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
>>
>> According to the NTSB report the pilots are ok but the birds did not fair
>> so
>> well. If you read the report, look at the winds.
>> Doc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:19 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>>
>>
>> I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these
>> birds and their pilots.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142701#142701
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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What I was refering to with the winds comment was that the 50 is a floater anyway
if you carry any extra over the fence. Add about 10-12 knots in the face and
even though your landing speed is on the money she is still going to float.
For a 2 point you are carrying about 30-40 klicks extra anyway. At least that
is my technique. Even though you have 10-17 kts 10 deg off the nose, that is a
double edged sword. It will give you extra drag slowing your approach down but
it is also giving extra lift even if you are a draggy airplane but the 50 is
not a draggy airplane. It has a high lift wing with excellent low speed characteristics.
She's gonna float in this setting where you are carrying extra airspeed
for a wheels landing. That is also the only way you can keep a visual on
your wingman if doing an element landing. If you bring that 50 down the glide
slope in a 3 point attitude your are not going to see crap over the nose until
you look 30-35 deg off the side of the nose. I certainly can't do an element
landing in the 3 point attitude, well maybe if I have a 500 ft wide runway, maybe.
Nobody is saying these guys were trying to do a formation 3 point at all. All the
details are not out yet and no judgement is being passed with these comments.
It is only my observation from my limited esperience in the 50 taht I waould
not be trying a n element landing.
I personally am not comfortable doing formation landings in the 50. Low approaches
are one thing but not landings.
-----Original Message-----
>From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2007 7:40 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
>The winds were almost straight down the runway at 13 knots gusting to 17
>knots; 260 degrees with the runway heading of 270 degrees. I'm just glad
>they are OK.
>Dennis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:28 AM
>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
>>
>> According to the NTSB report the pilots are ok but the birds did not fair
>> so
>> well. If you read the report, look at the winds.
>> Doc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:19 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>>
>>
>> I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these
>> birds and their pilots.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142701#142701
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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Hey Lynn,
It was "Liberty Lady" that lives at Wiley Post...
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142763#142763
Message 13
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Greasy,
Remember FAST only applies to flying in waivered airspace. The new RPA
manual does address element landings in tail draggers. It recommends they
not be done. The original fast manual, the T-34 manual, FORMATION FLIGHT
MANUAL, 4th edition, has a specific section addressing two of the tail
draggers. The "type specific section" for both the P-51 and the T-6. It
states for the P-51; "Section landings are not done in P-51s due to control
and visibility limitations." Under the type specific section for the
AT-6/SNJ, again it states; "Due to control and visibility limitations,
section landings are generally not performed." The NATA wingman practical
test guide under Objective #13 states, "Terminal maneuvers: overhead
approach, break and landing or section landing at check pilot's discretion
(check pilot option not required in tail wheel aircraft).
This was weekend warrior flying and you can pretty much do what you want as
long as it does not violate a FAR (and you get caught at it).
Just look and sound good on the radio! Chewing up you lead's empennage and
tail probably does not qualify for the "look good" section.
Chec 6,
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GreasySideUp
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:26 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
Does FAST have regulations or guidance regarding formation landings?
Examples including min runway width, Xwind limitations, Wingtip spacing,
centerline is a brick wall etc? There have been a couple of bumps on
landings lately, I wonder what soft rules if any are being broken.
-j
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142741#142741
Message 14
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Roger that, is that the one that use to be Vegas Vixen??
TIA,
Lynn
------Original Message------
From: mikspin
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Oct 30, 2007 11:38
Subject: Yak-List: Re: A26
Hey Lynn,
It was "Liberty Lady" that lives at Wiley Post...
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142763#142763
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 15
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As far as section landings in non conventional airplanes I'm curious what restrictions
are placed there, if any, regarding spacing, min width, x winds etc.
I realize these publications are guidance only - just curious if these issues
are addressed / followed.
On a related note, can I get a hold of these manuals? Any electronic copies anyone
could forward on?
Thanks,
-j
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142780#142780
Message 16
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Excellent Doc.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "viperdoc" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
> Greasy,
> Remember FAST only applies to flying in waivered airspace. The new RPA
> manual does address element landings in tail draggers. It recommends they
> not be done. The original fast manual, the T-34 manual, FORMATION FLIGHT
> MANUAL, 4th edition, has a specific section addressing two of the tail
> draggers. The "type specific section" for both the P-51 and the T-6. It
> states for the P-51; "Section landings are not done in P-51s due to
> control
> and visibility limitations." Under the type specific section for the
> AT-6/SNJ, again it states; "Due to control and visibility limitations,
> section landings are generally not performed." The NATA wingman practical
> test guide under Objective #13 states, "Terminal maneuvers: overhead
> approach, break and landing or section landing at check pilot's discretion
> (check pilot option not required in tail wheel aircraft).
> This was weekend warrior flying and you can pretty much do what you want
> as
> long as it does not violate a FAR (and you get caught at it).
> Just look and sound good on the radio! Chewing up you lead's empennage and
> tail probably does not qualify for the "look good" section.
> Chec 6,
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GreasySideUp
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:26 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
> Does FAST have regulations or guidance regarding formation landings?
> Examples including min runway width, Xwind limitations, Wingtip spacing,
> centerline is a brick wall etc? There have been a couple of bumps on
> landings lately, I wonder what soft rules if any are being broken.
>
> -j
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142741#142741
>
>
>
Message 17
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In the "for whatever it's worth department", I would not brief nor would
I accept an opportunity by direction to do a section landing between
tail draggers nor between a tail dragger and a conventional A/C. I like
my airplane to much to risk it. Besides, it looks kinda cool coming in
to land in trail. Even the Blue Angels do it that way...
dave jester
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
<dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Excellent Doc.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "viperdoc" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
> Greasy,
> Remember FAST only applies to flying in waivered airspace. The new RPA
> manual does address element landings in tail draggers. It recommends
they
> not be done. The original fast manual, the T-34 manual, FORMATION
FLIGHT
> MANUAL, 4th edition, has a specific section addressing two of the tail
> draggers. The "type specific section" for both the P-51 and the T-6.
It
> states for the P-51; "Section landings are not done in P-51s due to
> control
> and visibility limitations." Under the type specific section for the
> AT-6/SNJ, again it states; "Due to control and visibility limitations,
> section landings are generally not performed." The NATA wingman
practical
> test guide under Objective #13 states, "Terminal maneuvers: overhead
> approach, break and landing or section landing at check pilot's
discretion
> (check pilot option not required in tail wheel aircraft).
> This was weekend warrior flying and you can pretty much do what you
want
> as
> long as it does not violate a FAR (and you get caught at it).
> Just look and sound good on the radio! Chewing up you lead's empennage
and
> tail probably does not qualify for the "look good" section.
> Chec 6,
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GreasySideUp
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:26 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
<greasysideup@hotmail.com>
>
> Does FAST have regulations or guidance regarding formation landings?
> Examples including min runway width, Xwind limitations, Wingtip
spacing,
> centerline is a brick wall etc? There have been a couple of bumps on
> landings lately, I wonder what soft rules if any are being broken.
>
> -j
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142741#142741
>
>
>
Message 18
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FAST has no authority to make regulations. It's a clique with 'authority'
over whoever wants to listen to them. The feds make all the regs we need.
If you have any sense, use it to look out for your own ass. If you don't
have any sense, all the regs in the world won't help.> Subject: Yak-List: R
e: yak 50> From: greasysideup@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:26:18
ySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>> > Does FAST have regulations or guidan
ce regarding formation landings? Examples including min runway width, Xwind
limitations, Wingtip spacing, centerline is a brick wall etc? There have b
een a couple of bumps on landings lately, I wonder what soft rules if any a
re being broken. > > -j> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://for
=======> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop
by today.
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Oc
tWLtagline
Message 19
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Clique? Actually FAST was created to keep the FED out of making up
more stupid regs that could and probably would affect formation
flying detrimentally.
On Oct 30, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Ron Davis wrote:
> FAST has no authority to make regulations. It's a clique with
> 'authority' over whoever wants to listen to them. The feds make
> all the regs we need. If you have any sense, use it to look out
> for your own ass. If you don't have any sense, all the regs in the
> world won't help.
Message 20
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I've been reading through the new FAST formation manual that is now available
for download on the RPA's web site. It is very comprehensive and an excellent
guide to safe formation flying. Drew Blahnick and the RPA's FAST check pilots
have done a superb job of drawing together decades of hard won knowledge
gained by Navy and Air Force flight training. ...Blitz
**************************************
Message 21
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Agree Blitz.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
I've been reading through the new FAST formation manual that is now
available for download on the RPA's web site. It is very comprehensive and
an excellent guide to safe formation flying. Drew Blahnick and the RPA's
FAST check pilots have done a superb job of drawing together decades of hard
won knowledge gained by Navy and Air Force flight training. ...Blitz
***********************
Message 22
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Geez!! good thing I did not know that.
We managed twenty years of 4 plane Harvard (T6) airshow formation work
with hundreds of formation landings, two plane mostly but many times 4
(in finger) if runway width was adequate.
If crosswind conditions dictated we used an alternating (left/right)
stream landing with about 2 sec. separation over the button.
In all cases these were, of course, wheel landings. Somehow in our
ignorance we managed not to scratch anything - amazing!
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
In all my formation training, they preached against section landings
in tail wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for FAST that
I am aware of and I would not attempt it. It is far too easy to lose
directional control and prang the airplane. It is much better to
stagger land with separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide
runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a
not so wide runway). That would allow for a margin of safety should one
of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out. I wasn't there so
I am not passing judgment; I just believe that planes shouldn't "bump"
on the runway.
dave jester
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor
visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it
was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do
formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they
practice it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail
wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a
couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number
four in a formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 23
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For what it is worth, there has been a great deal of good discussions about
tail wheels, and how that works in the existing systems and training. It i
s
worth noting , many of the =B3old=B2 military standards have been forgotten by
most former and current pilots, as they never fly anything but a nose
dragger.. Thus, these habits and opinions are hard to break. That being
said, the FAST documents continue to grow and address the mass population
that we are ( Tail draggers, nose draggers, Jet=B9s , etc.. ) I know my worl
d
was enlightened the first time my tail came down, and the world around me I
could see became really small...
FAST is meant to be a baseline we can all have to work from , most of you
are far superior pilots, and would never need this baseline ( all you
fighter pilots.. Hehe ), but for the rest of us mortals that do not strap a
G suit on in the morning, it is a great reference for safety, and should be
used as a PART of your safe flying =AD use your brain for the other PART.. :)
If you have not read the manual in a while, and I am pretty damn sure that
is 90% of us.. Read it, there is a lot of hard work and lessons learned in
there now.
Just my .02 , I am glad the two guys that bumped walked away safely, and we
are able to have a good discussion and learn from this. We fly for fun, an
d
like to come home alive, FAST is a means to that end.. Not the only way..
David McGirt
Yak 52 TW
On 10/30/07 3:59 PM, "viperdoc" <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Agree Blitz.
> Doc
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ByronMFox@aol.c
om
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:40 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
> I've been reading through the new FAST formation manual that is now avail
able
> for download on the RPA's web site. It is very comprehensive and an excel
lent
> guide to safe formation flying. Drew Blahnick and the RPA's FAST check pi
lots
> have done a superb job of drawing together decades of hard won knowledge
> gained by Navy and Air Force flight training. ...Blitz
>
>
> ***********************
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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Walt your points are well taken. I think the key here is that you flew
twenty years of 4 plane T-6 AIRSHOWS with hundreds of formation
landings. Most formation pilots do not have that type of experience.
In many instances, formation pilots are lucky if they fly formation a
few times per year. The axiom better safe than sorry should apply. I
won't fly in formation with someone that I am unsure of. I damn sure am
not going to land in section with someone who hasn't trained extensively
to do so and with whom I am not familiar. I used to do section landing
with two plus tail draggers, but no more. This year during the warbird
show at Oshkosh I was almost a victim of an inexperienced pilot who lost
directional control on rollout and cut another landing airplane off.
The pilot who was cutoff firewalled his ship and staggered into the air
over my airplane. If that had been a section landing both planes would
have been toast. God knows what would have happened to the pilots. We
fly for fun here and I want to bring me and my airplane back to the
hanger each night in one piece.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
Geez!! good thing I did not know that.
We managed twenty years of 4 plane Harvard (T6) airshow formation work
with hundreds of formation landings, two plane mostly but many times 4
(in finger) if runway width was adequate.
If crosswind conditions dictated we used an alternating (left/right)
stream landing with about 2 sec. separation over the button.
In all cases these were, of course, wheel landings. Somehow in our
ignorance we managed not to scratch anything - amazing!
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
In all my formation training, they preached against section
landings in tail wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for
FAST that I am aware of and I would not attempt it. It is far too easy
to lose directional control and prang the airplane. It is much better
to stagger land with separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide
runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a
not so wide runway). That would allow for a margin of safety should one
of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out. I wasn't there so
I am not passing judgment; I just believe that planes shouldn't "bump"
on the runway.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a
poor visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes,
it was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do
formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they
practice it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why
is a tail wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon
Ca. a couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by
number four in a formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhre
f
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 25
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:) Walt, be nice =AD you know Harvard=B9s are notoriously easy to land, have
plenty of rudder, and have a clear view ahead when you put the tail down...
We are talking about real tail wheel airplanes here..
( OK PEOPLE =AD I am joking... I fly a tailwheel, thus I felt the need.. Heh
e
)
To Walts =AD and other points =AD When I fly with my regular crew =AD we are all
tail wheels, we can land any way we BRIEF.. And we continue to do so safely
.
As a standard goes, I think the FAST way, is a great standard for when a
group of people come together , fly together, and fly safe. Many do not
understand the details of the differences, and that common FAST standard
attempts to remove that knowledge requirement, but making the evolution
match the most dissimilar aircraft ( being a tail wheel in this case..)
Walt =AD you should get a TW, it is like a T6, but with training wheels on th
e
ground.. :)
David
On 10/30/07 1:25 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@persona.ca> wrote:
> Geez!! good thing I did not know that.
>
> We managed twenty years of 4 plane Harvard (T6) airshow formation work wi
th
> hundreds of formation landings, two plane mostly but many times 4 (in fin
ger)
> if runway width was adequate.
> If crosswind conditions dictated we used an alternating (left/right) stre
am
> landing with about 2 sec. separation over the button.
>
> In all cases these were, of course, wheel landings. Somehow in our ignora
nce
> we managed not to scratch anything - amazing!
>
> Walt
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
>>
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:41 AM
>>
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In all my formation training, they preached against section landings in
tail
>> wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for FAST that I am a
ware
>> of and I would not attempt it. It is far too easy to lose directional
>> control and prang the airplane. It is much better to stagger land with
>> separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide runway) or to stagger la
nd
>> with enough distance between the A/C (on a not so wide runway). That w
ould
>> allow for a margin of safety should one of the ships get squirrelly on
>> landing and roll out. I wasn=B9t there so I am not passing judgment; I j
ust
>> believe that planes shouldn=B9t =B3bump=B2 on the runway.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> dave jester
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Sav
arese
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor
>> visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it
was a
>> section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do formati
on
>> landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I don't HAVE to
do
>> it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only full time
>> demonstration teams should do formation landings because they practice
it
>> every day they fly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail whe
el
>>> group landing in formation? Doesn=B9t seem safe to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> dave jester
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
>>> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Speaking of YAK 50,s.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a couple
of
>>> YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a
>>> formation landing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <mailto:yak-list@matronics.
com>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Na
> vigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref=
"http
> ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Na
> vigator?Yak-List <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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Well said David...the key is the level of training and competence of
your "group." I hope that when my TD gets here in April 08 I have a
regular set of people to train with many times each year. I too fly a
tail dragger and am fast lead qualified through JLFC. Not many
birdoggers around here to fly with. I did a three ship for memorial
day. I did not know one of the pilots. He landed as a single ship.
The gent I regularly fly with and I landed as an element. Of course
there is a greater margin for safety when you land about as fast as my
grandma crosses the street. :-)
Post script: I did not know Texans were easy to land, the ones I have
flown must have been crooked or something. :-)
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
:) Walt, be nice - you know Harvard's are notoriously easy to land, have
plenty of rudder, and have a clear view ahead when you put the tail
down... We are talking about real tail wheel airplanes here..
( OK PEOPLE - I am joking... I fly a tailwheel, thus I felt the need..
Hehe )
To Walts - and other points - When I fly with my regular crew - we are
all tail wheels, we can land any way we BRIEF.. And we continue to do so
safely. As a standard goes, I think the FAST way, is a great standard
for when a group of people come together , fly together, and fly safe.
Many do not understand the details of the differences, and that common
FAST standard attempts to remove that knowledge requirement, but making
the evolution match the most dissimilar aircraft ( being a tail wheel in
this case..)
Walt - you should get a TW, it is like a T6, but with training wheels on
the ground.. :)
David
On 10/30/07 1:25 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@persona.ca> wrote:
Geez!! good thing I did not know that.
We managed twenty years of 4 plane Harvard (T6) airshow formation work
with hundreds of formation landings, two plane mostly but many times 4
(in finger) if runway width was adequate.
If crosswind conditions dictated we used an alternating (left/right)
stream landing with about 2 sec. separation over the button.
In all cases these were, of course, wheel landings. Somehow in our
ignorance we managed not to scratch anything - amazing!
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com> <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
In all my formation training, they preached against section landings in
tail wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for FAST that I
am aware of and I would not attempt it. It is far too easy to lose
directional control and prang the airplane. It is much better to
stagger land with separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide
runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a
not so wide runway). That would allow for a margin of safety should
one of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out. I wasn't
there so I am not passing judgment; I just believe that planes
shouldn't "bump" on the runway.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com%5d> On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor
visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it
was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do
formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they
practice it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
<mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a
tail wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com%5d> On Behalf Of Terry
Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a
couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number
four in a formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
<mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
http://forums.matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
<mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhre
f
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
<mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.
com/Navigator?Yak-List <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
<mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
<mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
ail Forum -
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
matronics.com
Message 27
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I'll second that!!!
Hank Gibson
"Hoot"
CJ/Jax, Fl
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: David McGirt <david@mcgirt.net>
To:<yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
For w= hat it is worth, there has been a great deal of good discussions about tail
= wheels, and how that works in the existing systems and training. It is=
worth noting , many of the old military standards have been f= orgotten by most
former and current pilots, as they never fly anything but a= nose dragger..
Thus, these habits and opinions are hard to break. Tha= t being said, the FAST
documents continue to grow and address the mass popul= ation that we are ( Tail
draggers, nose draggers, Jets , etc.. ) &nbs= p;I know my world was enlightened
the first time my tail came down, and the = world around me I could see became
really small...
FAST is meant to be a baseline we can all have to work from , m= ost of you are
far superior pilots, and would never need this baseline ( all= you fighter pilots..
Hehe ), but for the rest of us mortals that do not str= ap a G suit on
in the morning, it is a great reference for safety, and shoul= d be used as a
PART of your safe flying use your brain for the other= PART.. :)
If you have not read the manual in a while, and I am pretty damn sure that = is
90% of us.. Read it, there is a lot of hard work and lessons learne= d in there
now.
Just my .02 , I am glad the two guys that bumped walked away safely, and we= are
able to have a good discussion and learn from this. We fly for fu= n, and like
to come home alive, FAST is a means to that end.. Not the only w= ay..
David McGirt
Yak 52 TW
On 10/30/07 3:59 PM, "viperdoc" <viperdoc@mindspring.com> w= rote:
Agree Blitz.
Doc
From: owner-yak= -list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.
com]> On Behalf Of By= ronMFox@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
I've been reading thro= ugh the new FAST formation manual that is now available
for download on the = RPA's web site. It is very comprehensive and an excellent
guide to safe form= ation flying. Drew Blahnick and the RPA's FAST check pilots
have done a supe= rb job of drawing together decades of hard won knowledge
gained by Navy and = Air Force flight training. ...Blitz
***********************
http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
ail Forum -
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
;- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
matronics.com
Message 28
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Dave, many people in this world live for doing things that others would
consider to be less than safe. The list is endless, and I am not going
to insult you by listing examples.
Any time anyone has an accident doing one of the many things that we are
not listing here, it then becomes very easy for someone to say the very
exact same thing that you did. I.E. "That doesn't seem safe to me, why
were they doing that?"
There probably are a lot of better answers to this than mine, but I'll
give it a shot: Because they enjoy doing it very much, what they were
doing was above board and legal, AND they trained very hard to do it as
safely as they could, but in the process something went wrong and there
was an accident.
I for one am very sorry there was an accident at all, but am extremely
happy that no one was hurt, and as an American will support them
wholeheartedly when they hop into another aircraft and try to do it
again tomorrow. The ability to take certain risks in life is in my mind
what makes life worth living.
Of course everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and that is
also what makes this country great.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:06
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail wheel
group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a couple of
YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a
formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
Message 29
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Also well said Mark.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:01 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Dave, many people in this world live for doing things that others would
> consider to be less than safe. The list is endless, and I am not going
> to insult you by listing examples.
>
> Any time anyone has an accident doing one of the many things that we are
> not listing here, it then becomes very easy for someone to say the very
> exact same thing that you did. I.E. "That doesn't seem safe to me, why
> were they doing that?"
>
> There probably are a lot of better answers to this than mine, but I'll
> give it a shot: Because they enjoy doing it very much, what they were
> doing was above board and legal, AND they trained very hard to do it as
> safely as they could, but in the process something went wrong and there
> was an accident.
>
> I for one am very sorry there was an accident at all, but am extremely
> happy that no one was hurt, and as an American will support them
> wholeheartedly when they hop into another aircraft and try to do it
> again tomorrow. The ability to take certain risks in life is in my mind
> what makes life worth living.
>
> Of course everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and that is
> also what makes this country great.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:06
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>
> Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail wheel
> group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
>
>
> dave jester
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
>
>
> Speaking of YAK 50,s.
>
> I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a couple of
> YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a
> formation landing.
>
> No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
>
> Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
>
> Terry
>
>
>
Message 30
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Dave, if you don't feel comfortable doing ANYTHING, you shouldn't do it.
I feel comfortable section landing my YAK-50 with any number of other
aircraft. I have done it, I continue to do it, and will do it tomorrow
and the next day, as long as I know the person who is lead. I am much
more worried flying a section to landing as lead than I am as wingman by
the way.
Of course I have my own limitations. They deal with wind speed and
direction over the deck, the performance capabilities of the airplane I
am flying with, the experience and knowledge of the other guy, how many
times we have done it together, etc., etc.
Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no. I am sure that the two guys
who touched each other are now wishing they would have said no. I am
also quite sure they will learn from it and be safer pilots in the
future.
I hear you loud and clear when you say that you are not passing
judgment, my only question would be... If you WERE passing judgment,
what would be different in what you have already said?
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:42
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
In all my formation training, they preached against section landings in
tail wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for FAST that I
am aware of and I would not attempt it. It is far too easy to lose
directional control and prang the airplane. It is much better to
stagger land with separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide
runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a
not so wide runway). That would allow for a margin of safety should one
of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out. I wasn't there so
I am not passing judgment; I just believe that planes shouldn't "bump"
on the runway.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor
visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it
was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do
formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they
practice it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a
tail wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a
couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number
four in a formation landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 31
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Message 32
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Dave, I didn't think you were, but I also think that some could have interpreted
it that way, thus my comments.
By the way, I think a Birddog in it's own way can be harder to land than a YAK-50.
Yes, it has better vis., but it also has this rather strange habit of skating
around on those gear legs that some of it's bigger cousins, such as the 180
series does not! I'd feel more skittish formation landing your airplane than
a 50... Seriously.
I almost purchased one of those aircraft by the way... A version called the "Mountaineer".
Had a 260HP motor in it, from the factory! Hold on to that L-19,
it's a real prize.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 20:10
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
Mark: I guess what I am inartfully saying is that I do not know the circumstances
surrounding the accident. Nothing is certain in our flying and accidents
do occur. What you are comfortable and competent in should control. Although
there are people that I trust and do section land with in my birddog, I can count
those people on one hand. I agree that I would have to know my flight lead
very well before I would do it. There is a risk in that as well, but I love
formation flying and I will continue to do so. I apoligize if anyone took
my comments as questioning the skill and competence of the pilots at issue.
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
Sent: Tue Oct 30 18:46:49 2007
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Dave, if you don't feel comfortable doing ANYTHING, you shouldn't do it.
I feel comfortable section landing my YAK-50 with any number of other aircraft.
I have done it, I continue to do it, and will do it tomorrow and the next day,
as long as I know the person who is lead. I am much more worried flying a
section to landing as lead than I am as wingman by the way.
Of course I have my own limitations. They deal with wind speed and direction over
the deck, the performance capabilities of the airplane I am flying with, the
experience and knowledge of the other guy, how many times we have done it together,
etc., etc.
Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no. I am sure that the two guys who touched
each other are now wishing they would have said no. I am also quite sure they
will learn from it and be safer pilots in the future.
I hear you loud and clear when you say that you are not passing judgment, my only
question would be... If you WERE passing judgment, what would be different
in what you have already said?
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:42
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
In all my formation training, they preached against section landings in tail wheeled
aircraft. It is not the accepted standard for FAST that I am aware of and
I would not attempt it. It is far too easy to lose directional control and
prang the airplane. It is much better to stagger land with separation between
the A/C (assuming a big wide
runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a not so wide
runway). That would allow for a margin of safety should one of the ships get
squirrelly on landing and roll out. I wasn't there so I am not passing judgment;
I just believe that planes shouldn't "bump"
on the runway.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a poor visibility
Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category. Yes, it was a section formation
landing. This is precisely why I will NOT do formation landings. I don't
do formation flying for a living and I
don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned, only
full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they practice
it every day they fly.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is a tail wheel
group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
dave jester
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
Speaking of YAK 50,s.
I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca. a couple of
YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a formation
landing.
No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
Terry
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
~,g(MGqzky-x ojja{nrf
Message 33
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Trust one who has been there and done that and has the tea-shirt. There
is no winning this line of conversation. Everyone has their own
opinions about it, everyone is very sure they are right and the other
person is wrong and it really opens the biggest can of worms that can be
imagined on Planet Earth.
After months of debate, here is what I learned to be the case ... For me
anyway:
1. FAST has the authority to set any rule they want to in order to
receive their certifications.
2. Not one single person in the world must pay any attention to these
rules, unless they want to participate in an event that requires said
FAST certification and thus desire to go get that certification
themselves. People can fly formation over 99.9999% of the Earth's
surface without any FAST card what-so-ever, and in many cases do so more
safely than FAST card holders themselves. Witness the most recent
YAK-50 collision.
3. The FAA could care less about formation, who, what, where, or why..
Until somebody goes killing a lot of people all at once, or even comes
CLOSE to killing a lot of people all at once, at which time the hammer
will fall, no matter who wrote the last FAST manual.
4. FAST was created by guys out there flying their airplanes in
formation for fun, and decided to try to do so as safely as possible and
thus created their own little "Clique Certification Program". They did
this so well that now a lot of people demand that a pilot have this
non-regulatory-certification in order to do certain things at certain
places.
5. It is also true that sometimes certain folks who control the FAST
program go a little bit too far in certain aspects, and in fact set
rules and requirements that have little to do with safety and instead
have lots to do with "image". However, after all they are human too,
and heck... most pilots in this world just LOVE to "look good" anyway!
The above about covers 100,000 words and about 6 months worth of some
very serious arguments, which yours truly was very guilty of by the way.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Fox
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 15:17
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
Clique? Actually FAST was created to keep the FED out of making up more
stupid regs that could and probably would affect formation flying
detrimentally.
On Oct 30, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Ron Davis wrote:
FAST has no authority to make regulations. It's a clique with
'authority' over whoever wants to listen to them. The feds make all the
regs we need. If you have any sense, use it to look out for your own
ass. If you don't have any sense, all the regs in the world won't help.
Message 34
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Hi,
Was wondering if anyone out there has part of a manual, specifically, from
the "Type - 6 Primary Trainer Maintenance Manual" in chapter 1, section 1 "
preliminary aircraft preparation".... I'm missing pages 2-8. Thanks for any
info out there,
cheers,
Matt Salkeld (CJ-6A, S/N 5232011)
_________________________________________________________________
Are you ready for Windows Live Messenger Beta 8.5 ? Get the latest for free
today!
http://entertainment.sympatico.msn.ca/WindowsLiveMessenger
Message 35
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Good evening,
I received this from my cousin down south today regarding the
incident with the Yak-50's, here's what she had to say...
Best Regards
Jim
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:12 AM
All is good down here. How about you? I saw them hit. There were 4 of
them coming in to land and the last one came down then hit the guy in
front. the guy he hit had a chopped up tail, and elevator and the guy in
the back that hit him lost most of his prop. All where ok.
Tell everyone hi
Diana
Message 36
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Forget this nonsense! It was written in hast without much thought. BS!
Sometimes engaging ones fingers before engaging brain in hast will other multiple
tasks are pulling on you at the same time leads to inserting ones head in the
dark orifice. It to such nonsense!
Ignore it! Intellagent thought left the room on this one! It is a time distance
issue not a drag lift issue! Duh! At least I was correct about the 50 being a
floater but not for the reason I gave in this drivel.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2007 10:44 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>
>
>What I was refering to with the winds comment was that the 50 is a floater anyway
if you carry any extra over the fence. Add about 10-12 knots in the face and
even though your landing speed is on the money she is still going to float.
For a 2 point you are carrying about 30-40 klicks extra anyway. At least that
is my technique. Even though you have 10-17 kts 10 deg off the nose, that is
a double edged sword. It will give you extra drag slowing your approach down but
it is also giving extra lift even if you are a draggy airplane but the 50 is
not a draggy airplane. It has a high lift wing with excellent low speed characteristics.
She's gonna float in this setting where you are carrying extra airspeed
for a wheels landing. That is also the only way you can keep a visual on
your wingman if doing an element landing. If you bring that 50 down the glide
slope in a 3 point attitude your are not going to see crap over the nose until
you look 30-35 deg off the side of the nose. I cer
!
> tainly can't do an element landing in the 3 point attitude, well maybe if I have
a 500 ft wide runway, maybe.
>Nobody is saying these guys were trying to do a formation 3 point at all. All
the details are not out yet and no judgement is being passed with these comments.
It is only my observation from my limited esperience in the 50 taht I waould
not be trying a n element landing.
>I personally am not comfortable doing formation landings in the 50. Low approaches
are one thing but not landings.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
>>Sent: Oct 30, 2007 7:40 AM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>>
>>
>>The winds were almost straight down the runway at 13 knots gusting to 17
>>knots; 260 degrees with the runway heading of 270 degrees. I'm just glad
>>they are OK.
>>Dennis
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:28 AM
>>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>>
>>
>>>
>>> According to the NTSB report the pilots are ok but the birds did not fair
>>> so
>>> well. If you read the report, look at the winds.
>>> Doc
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:19 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 50
>>>
>>>
>>> I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these
>>> birds and their pilots.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142701#142701
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 37
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I agree with Mark,
I have been flying formation this summer in the 52TW and with some
liason planes in my Wilga. I would much rather wheel land with lots
of reserve power to get out of the way in the yak. The L birds have
such limited vis with the high wing and they do tend to float, be
landed 3 point, and are slow to spool up and get out of the way if
things don't go well.
I am not advocating element landing though. I did it with Sergei
this summer and even with him on the wing it wasn't "fun" it was
more of a pucker factor than I like. Then 2 days later the P51
incident happened at OSH and I REALLY re-thought my actions.
There are some excellent point / counterpoint discussion on this
topic though. The new FAST manual and the ground course is
excellent. Thanks to the work the RPA put into it. And people are
so right that training and experience together go a long way to make
a dangerous situation into a managealbe risk. I work in medicine and
that is the whole idea behind the training and experience we get. I
would not expect some military pilots to be able to cut people open,
only cut the structures we want to cut and get the patient safely
back together. I won't try to pretend I can fly and perform at their
level either.
Herb
On Oct 30, 2007, at 7:26 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Dave, I didn't think you were, but I also think that some could
> have interpreted it that way, thus my comments.
>
> By the way, I think a Birddog in it's own way can be harder to land
> than a YAK-50. Yes, it has better vis., but it also has this
> rather strange habit of skating around on those gear legs that some
> of it's bigger cousins, such as the 180 series does not! I'd feel
> more skittish formation landing your airplane than a 50... Seriously.
>
> I almost purchased one of those aircraft by the way... A version
> called the "Mountaineer". Had a 260HP motor in it, from the
> factory! Hold on to that L-19, it's a real prize.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 20:10
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
>
> Mark: I guess what I am inartfully saying is that I do not know
> the circumstances surrounding the accident. Nothing is certain in
> our flying and accidents do occur. What you are comfortable and
> competent in should control. Although there are people that I
> trust and do section land with in my birddog, I can count those
> people on one hand. I agree that I would have to know my flight
> lead very well before I would do it. There is a risk in that as
> well, but I love formation flying and I will continue to do so. I
> apoligize if anyone took my comments as questioning the skill and
> competence of the pilots at issue.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-
> server@matronics.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tue Oct 30 18:46:49 2007
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>
> --> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Dave, if you don't feel comfortable doing ANYTHING, you shouldn't
> do it.
>
>
> I feel comfortable section landing my YAK-50 with any number of
> other aircraft. I have done it, I continue to do it, and will do
> it tomorrow and the next day, as long as I know the person who is
> lead. I am much more worried flying a section to landing as lead
> than I am as wingman by the way.
>
> Of course I have my own limitations. They deal with wind speed and
> direction over the deck, the performance capabilities of the
> airplane I am flying with, the experience and knowledge of the
> other guy, how many times we have done it together, etc., etc.
>
> Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no. I am sure that the two
> guys who touched each other are now wishing they would have said
> no. I am also quite sure they will learn from it and be safer
> pilots in the future.
>
> I hear you loud and clear when you say that you are not passing
> judgment, my only question would be... If you WERE passing
> judgment, what would be different in what you have already said?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jester
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:42
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>
> In all my formation training, they preached against section
> landings in tail wheeled aircraft. It is not the accepted standard
> for FAST that I am aware of and I would not attempt it. It is far
> too easy to lose directional control and prang the airplane. It is
> much better to stagger land with separation between the A/C
> (assuming a big wide
> runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on
> a not so wide runway). That would allow for a margin of safety
> should one of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out. I
> wasn't there so I am not passing judgment; I just believe that
> planes shouldn't "bump"
> on the runway.
>
>
> dave jester
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
> Savarese
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak 50
>
>
> You're right on the money Dave. It IS unsafe, especially for a
> poor visibility Yak 50. The TD will fall into that same category.
> Yes, it was a section formation landing. This is precisely why I
> will NOT do formation landings. I don't do formation flying for a
> living and I
> don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to. As far as I'm concerned,
> only
> full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because
> they practice it every day they fly.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dave Jester <mailto:djester@gjtbs.com>
>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:06 AM
>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak 50
>
>
> Was this a true section formation landing? If, yes, why is
> a tail wheel group landing in formation? Doesn't seem safe to me.
>
>
> dave jester
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: yak 50
>
>
> Speaking of YAK 50,s.
>
> I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon
> Ca. a couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit
> by number four in a formation landing.
>
> No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.
>
> Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.
>
> Terry
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://
> www.matronics.
> com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ~,g(MGqzky-x ojja{nrf
>
>
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