Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:43 AM - November is Matronics Email List Fund Raiser Month! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:04 AM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 05:28 AM - Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Craig Winkelmann, CFI)
3. 07:10 AM - Re: Cj-6a Manuals (matt salkeld)
4. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Brian Lloyd)
5. 01:15 PM - Re: Cj-6a Manuals (Doug Sapp)
6. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Jorgen Nielsen)
7. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Mark Davis)
8. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
11. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 05:17 PM - Rights of association (cjpilot710@aol.com)
13. 05:32 PM - Re: Rights of association (b747crew2003@aol.com)
14. 06:11 PM - Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Craig Winkelmann, CFI)
15. 06:26 PM - Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Tim Gagnon)
16. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 07:33 PM - Re: Log book translation (jack)
18. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety (Jim Griffin)
19. 08:24 PM - AVweb Breaking News Alert (Jim Selby)
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| Subject: | November is Matronics Email List Fund Raiser Month! |
Dear Listers,
You've probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows or spam
from any of the List and Forum services at Matronics. These include, for example:
The Email List Postings - http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
The Email List Forum Site - http://forums.matronics.com
The List Wiki - http://wiki.matronics.com
The List Search Engine - http://www.matronics.com/search
This is because I have always enjoyed a List experience that was completely about
the sport we enjoy - airplanes - and not about advertising!
But running a high performance, highly available service like this isn't free and
a fair amount of money in terms of computer upgrades, business-class Internet
connectivity, and electricity. Consequently, many similar sites turn to advertising
to support these costs. Advertising that you have to look at each and
every time you read an email message or browse the their web site.
Rather than subject my List community to another constant commercial bombardment,
I have chosen to hold a PBS-like fund raiser each year in November to support
the continued operation and upgrade of the List services. It's solely through
the Contributions of List members that the Lists and Forums continue to be
possible!
During the month, I will be sending out a Fund Raiser reminder message every few
days and I ask for your patience and understanding during the month throughout
these regular messages. Think of them as PBS' Pledge Breaks... :-)
To minimize the impact of the Fund Raiser on the List community, I implemented
a new feature late last year specifically related to making Contributions. If
you are an Email List subscriber, once you make a Contribution using the online
web site, you will no longer receive the email from me regarding the Fund Raiser!
There are a couple of exceptions to this, however. If someone replies
to a Contribution message I've sent, you might receive that. Additionally, the
messages will always be posted to the Forums site. To a first order, however,
once you make a Contribution, you won't get my email messages about the Fund
Raiser for the rest of the month. For Contributions by check, the squelch
will take effect once the check is received.
There is a whole new line up of really great Contribution gifts this year! When
you make a qualifying Contribution, you can select one of the many free gifts
that are available during the Fund Raiser. These gifts are provided through
the generous support of a number of our industry's leading supporters including:
Bob Nuckolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com
Andy Gold - Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - http://www.homebuilthelp.com
Please visit these guy's respective sites, as they have some great products to
offer and are generously supporting the Matronics List Fund Raiser.
You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this
year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. From the Contribution
site, you can select any one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying
Contribution amount. The Contribution page is pretty loooonnnnng this year
in order to list great selection of great gifts available so be sure to scroll
all the way to the bottom of the web page to see everything that's available!
Please make a List Support Contribution:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous support! Your Contributions
truely keep this operation afloat!
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Forum Administrator
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Brian,
I'm sure I can have one made for you in any color you want if that's what
you desire......! :-)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
>
> On Oct 31, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
>
>> As an aside, single layer nomex provided little in the way of true fire
>> protection.
>
> So there is no real technical reason to wear one. Hmm.
>
>> If you really want fire protection, you need to wear stuff like race car
>> drivers do or wear something like carbon-x undergarments. I own five
>> nomex suits (OK, I'm nuts but the last two I bought brand new on eBay
>> for $3 each) mostly because we wear them in Civil Air Patrol flying
>> (yeah, yeah, yeah - Cessna 172s and 182s). There are other options in
>> CAP, but those uniforms contain polyester and I don't like wearing
>> polyester stuff as it will melt to you in a fire. Wearing nomex is hot
>> but I prefer it over polyester!
>
> So which is a greater risk to a pilot: fire in the cockpit or heat
> prostration/heatstroke? I know that I have overheated and suffered
> impaired performance on more than one occasion while flying on a summer
> day while wearing a Nomex flight suit. I can't remember when *anyone* has
> had a cockpit fire.
>
> That's the problem with risk analysis. Cockpit fire scares the snot out
> of everyone so we of course want to provide protection. OTOH, the greater
> risk probably comes from an impaired lead or wingman who has flown
> several hops, hasn't had enough water, and is dehydrated and overheated.
> This is a much more likely scenario than cockpit fire and a Nomex flight
> suit certainly doesn't help.
>
> Does anyone know if they make Nomex kilts? Now *that* would be a hoot.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Brian:
Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far? I fly all day long is South Florida
doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex
suit. All I can say is drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides the canopy
open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire. Wearing a kilt and your
fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your can still participate in other recreational
activities!!
Gerald:
The RPA Formation manual (awesome work) is at: www.flyredstar.org. Look at the top and find the Formation Tab. The to the Wing Pilot Course. It is all there.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143181#143181
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| Subject: | Re: Cj-6a Manuals |
Many thanks for the Quick replies, and to Jim Bernier & Brian Lloyd for sending
me those pages, & to Doug Sapp for the offer,
Cheers,
Matt Salkeld
_________________________________________________________________
Have fun while connecting on Messenger! Click here to learn more.
http://entertainment.sympatico.msn.ca/WindowsLiveMessenger
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
> <capav8r@gmail.com>
>
> Brian:
>
> Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far?
Well, it depends on how you define heat stroke. If you want to use
that to refer to the advanced stages of Perhaps not all the way to
heatstroke but there are levels of hyperthermia. I know that I have
inadvertently gone over the line from OK to early stages of
hyperthermia without knowing it ahead of time. It is only when I
stepped down from the aircraft and started to walk that I realized
how impaired I was. Remember, if you are experiencing thirst you are
already dehydrated and suffering from impairment.
> I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet
> Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say
> is drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
A C-182 is a high wing and provides protection from the sun. Sitting
in a CJ or Yak and you have the full heat-load of the sun on you. Add
to that sitting on the ground waiting to roll and you can get pretty
warm. Not the same situation as the C-182. Also, while you are
concentrating on the mission you might not be listening to the
warning bells your body is trying to send you.
You are right that the threat is less from hyperthermia than fire but
the *RISK* is greater because it is *MUCH* more likely to happen.
That is the problem people run into when getting into these
discussions. They mistake risk for threat.
> Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides
> the canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire.
And how often does that happen? I don't know of a single case of fire
in the cockpit in a Yak or CJ. Perhaps there has been one but I am
not aware of it. Feel free to enlighten me as to the frequency of the
occurrence. Regardless, it doesn't seem to be much of a risk given
the infrequency of occurrence.
OTOH, I bet that there are several people suffering from the early
stages of hyperthermia at every summertime afternoon training
session. They may not realize what it is. They may just think it is
nerves, fatigue, a touch of nausea from the yank-n-bank, and/or
thirst. The key point is that they ARE impaired and not operating as
safely as they could be. Would they be better off if they didn't have
on a Nomex suit? Perhaps. Are they less safe if there is a fire?
Perhaps.
The whole point of my post is that this is not a cut-and-dried issue.
It is possible that wearing a Nomex suit is a greater risk to your
overall safety than not wearing one. I am of the opinion that this
might be so (certainly in summer) but mostly I am encouraging people
to think about the issue rather than just accepting that something is
so because everyone else does. All I am saying is that, in response
to someone saying, "wearing Nomex makes you safer," I am responding,
"well, maybe not."
I do think that having the organization dictate how the pilot chooses
to dress in his/her cockpit is the wrong thing to do. (But we have
been here before and I pissed Drew off then too. :-)
> Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your
> can still participate in other recreational activities!!
Well, we know that Nomex is not much protection. You even said so.
Still, I was mostly just trying to inject a bit of levity into these
proceedings. There is a tendency to take these positions way too
seriously. Besides, the Boys like a nice cool breeze. OTOH, I suspect
that the crotch straps from the 'chute and harness might chafe a bit.
Hmmm, if I wore silk boxers ...
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cj-6a Manuals |
Roger,
Many thanks for your kind words, now that I am closing down the flower
business (Chinese imports are killing the flower business), we will be
able to spend a bit more time flying , fishing, and hopefully will be
able to complete some of the CJ mods which have been sitting on the
"back burner".
Many thanks to your and the entire CJ community for all your past support.
Always Yakin,
Doug
Roger Bieberdorf wrote:
> Doug;
> If there is ANYTHING that has made me want to keep the CJ-6 (besides
> the fun of flying the bird); it is your product support and dedication
> to our Aircraft! Thanks! Roger B
>
> */Doug Sapp <rvfltd@televar.com>/* wrote:
>
> Matt,
> I have the complete bound and translated manuals in stock @ $25.00
> ea. or I would be happy to copy pages 2-8 for you at no charge.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> matt salkeld wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Was wondering if anyone out there has part of a manual,
>> specifically, from the "Type - 6 Primary Trainer Maintenance
>> Manual" in chapter 1, section 1 "preliminary aircraft
>> preparation"....
>>
>>*
>>
>>
>>*
>>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Interesting debate. Some thoughts...
When evaluating risk / threat / likelihood, one should also consider the
likelihood of needing that nomex esp. in a formo training sortie. My
understanding, is that is when the wear thereof is mandatory as per RPA.
What I am trying to say, is how does the fact that one is doing formo
training going to result in a situation where nomex will help? What are the
likely scenarios - will a "touch" result in a flash fire where the suit
would be of value?
I think some of the debate is fuelled (pun intended) by the cover your ass
situation. Insurance and lawyers come into it then. Its that question
asked in court after the accident, "so can you confirm you were NOT wearing
any commonly accepted safety equipment?"
Here in SA flying ex-mil jets, our authority mandate all safety equipment
must be in place. Both with the aircraft and pilot. As far as the pilot is
concerned, this means boots, nomex flightsuit and helmet. So the issue is
clear, if you dont wear these, you are breaking regs. On any and all
flights.
This does not apply to other aircraft. Here we see a mix, some pilots wear
the flightsuits, gloves, helmets (on every flight), others go in shorts /
t-shirt. This applies whether one is flying an Extra 300, Pitts, Zlin, Yak
or whatever. Those that fly the Yaks etc tend more to the flightsuits.
I dont think you will ever get agreement because its subjective.
My personal feeling is that the flightsuit is better, not just for fire but
also for general protection - some covering is better than bare skin. If I
had jumped and was landing in trees, I would rather have a flightsuit,
gloves and boots on than trainers, shorts and a t-shirt. Also if you
dehydrating in the flightsuit, would you anyway not also be dehydrating in
shorts, all other things being equal? I.e., does it make such a difference?
There are 2 fire incidents I know of - one an L-29 catching fire in flight
(battery) and one Yak that hit powerlines on landing, crashed and caught
fire. In both these occasions the nomex suit was preferred and beneficial,
hugely so in the case of the L-29. The Yak driver did not have one and
sustained burns which would have been less severe had he worn a suit.
Then again, I mostly fly my Yak in shorts & a T, whether doing formo, acro
or just tooling around. Gets bl**dy hot in Pretoria!
Jorgen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 01 November 2007 08:09 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
> <capav8r@gmail.com>
>
> Brian:
>
> Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far?
Well, it depends on how you define heat stroke. If you want to use
that to refer to the advanced stages of Perhaps not all the way to
heatstroke but there are levels of hyperthermia. I know that I have
inadvertently gone over the line from OK to early stages of
hyperthermia without knowing it ahead of time. It is only when I
stepped down from the aircraft and started to walk that I realized
how impaired I was. Remember, if you are experiencing thirst you are
already dehydrated and suffering from impairment.
> I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet
> Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say
> is drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
A C-182 is a high wing and provides protection from the sun. Sitting
in a CJ or Yak and you have the full heat-load of the sun on you. Add
to that sitting on the ground waiting to roll and you can get pretty
warm. Not the same situation as the C-182. Also, while you are
concentrating on the mission you might not be listening to the
warning bells your body is trying to send you.
You are right that the threat is less from hyperthermia than fire but
the *RISK* is greater because it is *MUCH* more likely to happen.
That is the problem people run into when getting into these
discussions. They mistake risk for threat.
> Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides
> the canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire.
And how often does that happen? I don't know of a single case of fire
in the cockpit in a Yak or CJ. Perhaps there has been one but I am
not aware of it. Feel free to enlighten me as to the frequency of the
occurrence. Regardless, it doesn't seem to be much of a risk given
the infrequency of occurrence.
OTOH, I bet that there are several people suffering from the early
stages of hyperthermia at every summertime afternoon training
session. They may not realize what it is. They may just think it is
nerves, fatigue, a touch of nausea from the yank-n-bank, and/or
thirst. The key point is that they ARE impaired and not operating as
safely as they could be. Would they be better off if they didn't have
on a Nomex suit? Perhaps. Are they less safe if there is a fire?
Perhaps.
The whole point of my post is that this is not a cut-and-dried issue.
It is possible that wearing a Nomex suit is a greater risk to your
overall safety than not wearing one. I am of the opinion that this
might be so (certainly in summer) but mostly I am encouraging people
to think about the issue rather than just accepting that something is
so because everyone else does. All I am saying is that, in response
to someone saying, "wearing Nomex makes you safer," I am responding,
"well, maybe not."
I do think that having the organization dictate how the pilot chooses
to dress in his/her cockpit is the wrong thing to do. (But we have
been here before and I pissed Drew off then too. :-)
> Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your
> can still participate in other recreational activities!!
Well, we know that Nomex is not much protection. You even said so.
Still, I was mostly just trying to inject a bit of levity into these
proceedings. There is a tendency to take these positions way too
seriously. Besides, the Boys like a nice cool breeze. OTOH, I suspect
that the crotch straps from the 'chute and harness might chafe a bit.
Hmmm, if I wore silk boxers ...
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Brian,
If your flight suits had been through a ship's laundry as many times as
mine have, they'd be nearly like cotton. Almost see through! It made them
nice and cool until you put a nylon g-suit and torso harness over the top.
Probably not much flame retardant left in them. In the mean time, every
time you wash a load of jeans, throw the Nomex in with them. Just don't put
it in with the wife or kids' stuff, they don't appreciate the Nomex smell!
They'll lighten up a little every cycle. If you have more than one, keep
the best one for winter time and beat the others to smithereens in the
washer and dryer. Homemade summer and winter weight Nomex flight suits.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
>
>> <capav8r@gmail.com>
>>
>> Brian:
>>
>> Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far?
>
> Well, it depends on how you define heat stroke. If you want to use that
> to refer to the advanced stages of Perhaps not all the way to heatstroke
> but there are levels of hyperthermia. I know that I have inadvertently
> gone over the line from OK to early stages of hyperthermia without
> knowing it ahead of time. It is only when I stepped down from the
> aircraft and started to walk that I realized how impaired I was.
> Remember, if you are experiencing thirst you are already dehydrated and
> suffering from impairment.
>
>> I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet
>> Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say is
>> drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
>
> A C-182 is a high wing and provides protection from the sun. Sitting in a
> CJ or Yak and you have the full heat-load of the sun on you. Add to that
> sitting on the ground waiting to roll and you can get pretty warm. Not
> the same situation as the C-182. Also, while you are concentrating on the
> mission you might not be listening to the warning bells your body is
> trying to send you.
>
> You are right that the threat is less from hyperthermia than fire but the
> *RISK* is greater because it is *MUCH* more likely to happen. That is the
> problem people run into when getting into these discussions. They mistake
> risk for threat.
>
>> Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides the
>> canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire.
>
> And how often does that happen? I don't know of a single case of fire in
> the cockpit in a Yak or CJ. Perhaps there has been one but I am not aware
> of it. Feel free to enlighten me as to the frequency of the occurrence.
> Regardless, it doesn't seem to be much of a risk given the infrequency of
> occurrence.
>
> OTOH, I bet that there are several people suffering from the early stages
> of hyperthermia at every summertime afternoon training session. They may
> not realize what it is. They may just think it is nerves, fatigue, a
> touch of nausea from the yank-n-bank, and/or thirst. The key point is
> that they ARE impaired and not operating as safely as they could be.
> Would they be better off if they didn't have on a Nomex suit? Perhaps.
> Are they less safe if there is a fire? Perhaps.
>
> The whole point of my post is that this is not a cut-and-dried issue. It
> is possible that wearing a Nomex suit is a greater risk to your overall
> safety than not wearing one. I am of the opinion that this might be so
> (certainly in summer) but mostly I am encouraging people to think about
> the issue rather than just accepting that something is so because
> everyone else does. All I am saying is that, in response to someone
> saying, "wearing Nomex makes you safer," I am responding, "well, maybe
> not."
>
> I do think that having the organization dictate how the pilot chooses to
> dress in his/her cockpit is the wrong thing to do. (But we have been here
> before and I pissed Drew off then too. :-)
>
>> Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your can
>> still participate in other recreational activities!!
>
> Well, we know that Nomex is not much protection. You even said so. Still,
> I was mostly just trying to inject a bit of levity into these
> proceedings. There is a tendency to take these positions way too
> seriously. Besides, the Boys like a nice cool breeze. OTOH, I suspect
> that the crotch straps from the 'chute and harness might chafe a bit.
> Hmmm, if I wore silk boxers ...
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Craig, let me reply to text... Which is not the "right way", but
probably good enough.
>First, let me tell you that I believe in open debate and that two
parties can agree to disagree. So no worries on future friendships!!
Hey, give me the chance, I can ruin ANY friendship! :-)
>Here are the RPA guidelines from the website:
>Do I have to wear a flight suit to fly at RPA events?
>Flight suits are ONLY REQUIRED during Formation Training sorties
conducted at RPA events. However,we strongly urge you to wear a nomex
flight suit during all your flying in your warbird. You will find just
about everyone who attends RPA Fly-Ins is in a flight suit. It's an
important piece of safety equipment that if maintained, may save your
skin during an aircraft accident/fire. Besides, where else are you going
to put the formation or membership patch?
I would like to ask RPA to change these rules to where only the RPA
member that is acting as an INSTRUCTOR and is obviously PARTICIPATING at
the RPA event have to wear said Flight Suit. In other words, if you
come to an RPA event simply to obtain instruction, such as any sort of
FAST TRAINING, and are not PARTICIPATING as an RPA member in some kind
of "event" that said Flight Suit shall not be mandatory. I am not going
to discuss how important it is, or is not as a piece of safety
equipment. The subject of how important Flight Suits are, or are not,
and the matter of whether RPA should be acting as an enforcement agency
for Flight Safety has been debated long and loud before now. This
debate took months and months. It made many people angry. I really am
not going to repeat it. I also am not going to repeat the final result
of this debate, because I am SURE that it still bothers a lot of people,
and it would only be like throwing gas on a fire. The bottom line here
is like I asked you to before, PLEASE DO NOT GO INTO THE SAFETY ASPECT
OF THIS ISSUE. Suffice it to say that if I want to fly my airplane at
10 feet off the ground upside down, then that is my business and no one
else's as long as I obey all FAR's.
>Do I have to wear a parachute when flying at RPA events?
>Only if you are conducting formation training with a backseat
instructor (or occupant), in this case you must have a parachute for
both seats with current repack as directed by Federal Aviation
Regulations concerning aerobatics.
That is exactly what the FARS specify. I want to make clear that this
is a change. Before now, if you were receiving instruction of any type,
... Say I was flying wingman with another aircraft, RPA rules were that
I MUST be wearing a parachute, regardless if I was by myself in a two
seat aircraft, or by myself in a ONE seat aircraft. So this then is new
official policy then correct? GREAT!
>Almost all RPA FormationTraining sorties will meet the definition of
aerobatic flight due to manuevers flown, so we are meeting the regs. If
you don't have a chute for your backseat for the RPA FAST fly-in, let
the ortganizer know, often we can share and cover folks needs.
Well that brings up an interesting question that I have never really
considered before. Let's say that:
1. I show up for FAST training at an RPA event in my YAK-50.
2. I don't fit in any other 2 seat aircraft.
What are you going to do?
>SO....you only need nomex at an RPA EVENT. If you are flying locally
doing training, or flying for fun nomex is optional and not required. I
think this supports your comment of "On the other hand, for events where
the RPA is showing the flag... As in events where RPA FAST card members
are flying and representing RPA itself, I personally have no problem
what-so-ever with ANY organization specifying a dress code."
Almost. I admit that there seems to be at least some concessions being
made here, but here is the deal. Many people might view a situation
where RPA members are teaching formation flying to be an RPA EVENT. See
where I am going here? This is what I am talking about....example to
follow:
You are an RPA member. You are an RPA qualified FAST pilot. The RPA
has been asked to perform some type of flying event. Mass formation
fly-over, whatever... You name it. For that flight just described...
Pilots involved in it, leading up to it, doing it, and landing after it,
and being involved with the public must wear a flight suit. This is an
RPA rule, you are an RPA member, you are involved in an RPA event. I
have ZERO issues with this... It's your party and you set those rules...
With you 100%.
Now, some of the RPA members say: "Hey, while we are all there at this
RPA event, we might as well sponsor a FAST CLINIC and give some of those
FNG's some good ole FORMATION TRAINING! I show up with no Flight Suit,
and you say to me: "Sorry Mark, I can't allow you to fly at all for FAST
TRAINING because after all, this is an RPA EVENT and you are not wearing
a FLIGHT SUIT. I have a real problem with this. So please tell me
"Not to worry Mark, we would never do that".
>As far as chutes are concerned, you are 100% correct that a single seat
aircraft is exempt AND so is a two-seat aircraft if only one person is
in the plane. I see nothing in the above RPA statement that conflicts
with this.
There used to be. I am over-joyed that there no longer IS! I am being
dead serious.
>As an aside, single layer nomex provided little in the way of true fire
protection. If you really want fire protection, you need to wear stuff
like race car drivers do or wear something like carbon-x undergarments.
I own five nomex suits (OK, I'm nuts but the last two I bought brand new
on eBay for $3 each) mostly because we wear them in Civil Air Patrol
flying (yeah, yeah, yeah - Cessna 172s and 182s). There are other
options in CAP, but those uniforms contain polyester and I don't like
wearing polyester stuff as it will melt to you in a fire. Wearing nomex
is hot but I prefer it over polyester!
Craig, I have worn Nomex Flight Suits off and on for 30 years. I have
been Flight Crew on more than a few military flights. I honestly know
all about the subject. If I did NOT know, I sure was educated by a lot
of very smart people the last time this came up. Bottom line is that to
fit me now, a Flight Suit costs over $300. A lot of people are going to
argue and debate that, but the bottom line is that once they know the
full story, they say: "OH, IT SUCKS TO BE YOU". Bottom line, I hardly
ever wear a chute, and I simply do not wear Flight Suits anymore ...
Except... And I can not discuss the except.
ANYWAY, every once in awhile it does suck to be me... And more than one
person on this list server will surely agree!
Take care,
Mark
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Now let's bring up the subject of how good Marvel Mystery Oil really is for our
engines! \
Mark.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 2:43
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
On Oct 31, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
> As an aside, single layer nomex provided little in the way of true
> fire protection.
So there is no real technical reason to wear one. Hmm.
> If you really want fire protection, you need to wear stuff like
> race car drivers do or wear something like carbon-x undergarments.
> I own five nomex suits (OK, I'm nuts but the last two I bought brand
> new on eBay for $3 each) mostly because we wear them in Civil Air
> Patrol flying (yeah, yeah, yeah - Cessna 172s and 182s). There are
> other options in CAP, but those uniforms contain polyester and I don't
> like wearing polyester stuff as it will melt to you in a fire.
> Wearing nomex is hot but I prefer it over polyester!
So which is a greater risk to a pilot: fire in the cockpit or heat prostration/heatstroke?
I know that I have overheated and suffered impaired performance on
more than one occasion while flying on a summer day while wearing a Nomex flight
suit. I can't remember when
*anyone* has had a cockpit fire.
That's the problem with risk analysis. Cockpit fire scares the snot out of everyone
so we of course want to provide protection. OTOH, the greater risk probably
comes from an impaired lead or wingman who has flown several hops, hasn't had
enough water, and is dehydrated and overheated. This is a much more likely
scenario than cockpit fire and a Nomex flight suit certainly doesn't help.
Does anyone know if they make Nomex kilts? Now *that* would be a hoot.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
He is not taking it too far at all ... Not in my opinion anyway. One of
the biggest factors that impacts aerobatic pilots is heat. That is
KNOWN FACT. A C-182 is also not a YAK-50.
Craig, please name the source of the flight where the guy slid the
canopy open and then got a face full of fire. What make and model and
what year, and how many times did that happen?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann, CFI
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:28
Subject: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
--> <capav8r@gmail.com>
Brian:
Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far? I fly all day long is
South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet Orientation flights in a
C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say is drink lots of water and
you are fine. Common sense.
Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides the
canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire. Wearing a
kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your can still
participate in other recreational activities!!
Gerald:
The RPA Formation manual (awesome work) is at: www.flyredstar.org. Look
at the top and find the Formation Tab. The to the Wing Pilot Course.
It is all there.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143181#143181
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Jorgen, just to be clear.
My "issue" is NOT about the worth of any and all safety equipment.
My issue about anyone FORCING me to wear it in my own aircraft when I do not want
to.
It is as simple as that.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jorgen Nielsen
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 17:07
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
--> <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>
Interesting debate. Some thoughts...
When evaluating risk / threat / likelihood, one should also consider the likelihood
of needing that nomex esp. in a formo training sortie. My understanding,
is that is when the wear thereof is mandatory as per RPA.
What I am trying to say, is how does the fact that one is doing formo training
going to result in a situation where nomex will help? What are the likely scenarios
- will a "touch" result in a flash fire where the suit would be of value?
I think some of the debate is fuelled (pun intended) by the cover your ass situation.
Insurance and lawyers come into it then. Its that question asked in court
after the accident, "so can you confirm you were NOT wearing any commonly
accepted safety equipment?"
Here in SA flying ex-mil jets, our authority mandate all safety equipment must
be in place. Both with the aircraft and pilot. As far as the pilot is concerned,
this means boots, nomex flightsuit and helmet. So the issue is clear, if
you don't wear these, you are breaking regs. On any and all flights.
This does not apply to other aircraft. Here we see a mix, some pilots wear the
flightsuits, gloves, helmets (on every flight), others go in shorts / t-shirt.
This applies whether one is flying an Extra 300, Pitts, Zlin, Yak or whatever.
Those that fly the Yaks etc tend more to the flightsuits.
I don't think you will ever get agreement because its subjective.
My personal feeling is that the flightsuit is better, not just for fire but also
for general protection - some covering is better than bare skin. If I had jumped
and was landing in trees, I would rather have a flightsuit, gloves and boots
on than trainers, shorts and a t-shirt. Also if you dehydrating in the flightsuit,
would you anyway not also be dehydrating in shorts, all other things
being equal? I.e., does it make such a difference?
There are 2 fire incidents I know of - one an L-29 catching fire in flight
(battery) and one Yak that hit powerlines on landing, crashed and caught fire.
In both these occasions the nomex suit was preferred and beneficial, hugely so
in the case of the L-29. The Yak driver did not have one and sustained burns
which would have been less severe had he worn a suit.
Then again, I mostly fly my Yak in shorts & a T, whether doing formo, acro or just
tooling around. Gets bl**dy hot in Pretoria!
Jorgen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 01 November 2007 08:09 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
> <capav8r@gmail.com>
>
> Brian:
>
> Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far?
Well, it depends on how you define heat stroke. If you want to use that to refer
to the advanced stages of Perhaps not all the way to heatstroke but there are
levels of hyperthermia. I know that I have inadvertently gone over the line
from OK to early stages of hyperthermia without knowing it ahead of time. It is
only when I stepped down from the aircraft and started to walk that I realized
how impaired I was. Remember, if you are experiencing thirst you are already
dehydrated and suffering from impairment.
> I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet
> Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say is
> drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
A C-182 is a high wing and provides protection from the sun. Sitting in a CJ or
Yak and you have the full heat-load of the sun on you. Add to that sitting on
the ground waiting to roll and you can get pretty warm. Not the same situation
as the C-182. Also, while you are concentrating on the mission you might not
be listening to the warning bells your body is trying to send you.
You are right that the threat is less from hyperthermia than fire but the *RISK*
is greater because it is *MUCH* more likely to happen.
That is the problem people run into when getting into these discussions. They mistake
risk for threat.
> Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides
> the canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire.
And how often does that happen? I don't know of a single case of fire in the cockpit
in a Yak or CJ. Perhaps there has been one but I am not aware of it. Feel
free to enlighten me as to the frequency of the occurrence. Regardless, it doesn't
seem to be much of a risk given the infrequency of occurrence.
OTOH, I bet that there are several people suffering from the early stages of hyperthermia
at every summertime afternoon training session. They may not realize
what it is. They may just think it is nerves, fatigue, a touch of nausea from
the yank-n-bank, and/or thirst. The key point is that they ARE impaired and
not operating as safely as they could be. Would they be better off if they didn't
have on a Nomex suit? Perhaps. Are they less safe if there is a fire?
Perhaps.
The whole point of my post is that this is not a cut-and-dried issue.
It is possible that wearing a Nomex suit is a greater risk to your overall safety
than not wearing one. I am of the opinion that this might be so (certainly
in summer) but mostly I am encouraging people to think about the issue rather
than just accepting that something is so because everyone else does. All I am
saying is that, in response to someone saying, "wearing Nomex makes you safer,"
I am responding, "well, maybe not."
I do think that having the organization dictate how the pilot chooses to dress
in his/her cockpit is the wrong thing to do. (But we have been here before and
I pissed Drew off then too. :-)
> Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your can
> still participate in other recreational activities!!
Well, we know that Nomex is not much protection. You even said so.
Still, I was mostly just trying to inject a bit of levity into these proceedings.
There is a tendency to take these positions way too seriously. Besides, the
Boys like a nice cool breeze. OTOH, I suspect that the crotch straps from the
'chute and harness might chafe a bit.
Hmmm, if I wore silk boxers ...
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 12
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| Subject: | Rights of association |
The First Amendment of the Constitution:
Freedom of association is a human right and concept in constitutional law
based on the premise that it is the right of free adults to mutually choose
their associates for whatever purpose they see fit.
1. Intimate Associations. A fundamental element of _personal liberty_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_liberty) is the right to choose to
enter
into and maintain certain intimate human relationships.
2. Expressive Associations. Expressive associations are groups that engage
in activities protected by the First Amendment=94 such as _speech_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech) , _assembly_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly) , petitioning government
for a redress of grievances,
and the free exercise of _religion_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion)
.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rights of association |
Jim!!! Are you home and avail for a call ?? Jack Snodgrass
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 8:16 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Rights of association
The First Amendment of the Constitution:
Freedom of association is a human right and concept in
constitutional law based on the premise that it is the right of free
adults to
mutually choose their associates for whatever purpose they see fit.
1. Intimate Associations. A fundamental element of personal liberty is
the
right to choose to enter into and maintain certain intimate human
relationships.
2. Expressive Associations. Expressive associations are groups that
engage in activities protected by the First Amendment such as speech,
assembly,
petitioning government for a redress of grievances, and the free
exercise of religion.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
------------------------------------------------------------
See what's new
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Mark:
Glad I could enlighten you on the "new" RPA rules for chutes.
As for RPA Event....I would think that official RPA events are those listed on
the RPA website under events.
I can't make decisions for the RPA. I'm just one of the members who enjoys flying
and the friendship of other pilots. Darrell would be the one to make organizational
decisions.
As for the event of the canopy opening, I really don't remember....I read way too
much aviation stuff (it is a sickness I am told!!).
Since I don't fly aerobatics in the CAP 182, I use a Camelback that I sling over
the seat so I have water with me all the time.
By the way, Flightsuits.com has a part of the site where they sell suits they made
as demos, etc at a discount. Often $99. FYI.
By the way, single seat aircraft are exempt from having an ELT as well. Does this
mean the FAA doesn't care if a) you have a chute to get out when things go
to sh_t and b) don't care if they have a way to find you when you do if you fly
single seat aircraft???
Fly often, fly safe,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143303#143303
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
I have spent nearly 13 years wearing a flight suit in temps ranging from -60 F
to over 120 F. The thing offers ZERO comfort in the extremes and in fact, makes
those extremes worse. When it is cold outside, they are useless. In the heat
of Iraq, they trap heat and zap energy quickly. As for protection, ask any life
support tech about the true protective nature of the flightsuit. While your
at it, ask them about the protective qualities of the -55/P helmet. Neither are
inspiring....
Wear whats comfortable for YOU.....
I have flown my airplane three times with a flight suit, twice when I flew the
airplane to my guard unit and it was just easier to wear than to pack it. The
other time was when I visited a local museum in hopes of getting a flying gig
in a B-25. (They wear bags so I thought it may help my chances.)
Thats all I have to say about that......
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143305#143305
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
>Glad I could enlighten you on the "new" RPA rules for chutes.
Thanks Craig, you did.
>As for RPA Event....I would think that official RPA events are those
listed on the RPA website under events.
Then my request still stands.
>I can't make decisions for the RPA. I'm just one of the members who
enjoys flying and the friendship of other pilots. Darrell would be the
one to make organizational decisions.
Maybe you can pass my request on to him?
>As for the event of the canopy opening, I really don't remember....I
read way too much aviation stuff (it is a sickness I am told!!).
No problem. Brian Lloyd and I see pretty much eye to eye regarding this
aspect, so no sense in repeating what he already said.
>Since I don't fly aerobatics in the CAP 182, I use a Camelback that I
sling over the seat so I have water with me all the time.
When I do fly Aerobatics, EVERYTHING comes out of the cockpit, including
what I have in my pocket, maps, etc., etc.
>By the way, Flightsuits.com has a part of the site where they sell
suits they made as demos, etc at a discount. Often $99. FYI.
Yep, I just KNEW you would not be able to resist. Give them a call.
Ask them to bring up the list that they have on hand for my
measurements. They will not hesitate to do that. Now ask them if they
can come up with a Demo Suit, or a return item, or anything else in the
world that will keep the cost down below what I stated, then come back
to me here on the net or privately and let me know. Until then, I
repeat..... trust me, amazingly enough, I really do know what I am
talking about.
>By the way, single seat aircraft are exempt from having an ELT as well.
Yep. I'm aware of that. They're not required in the first darn military
aircraft either!
> Does this mean the FAA doesn't care if a) you have a chute to get out
when things go to sh_t and b) don't care if they have a way to find you
when you do if you fly single seat aircraft???
Yep. I guess that is pretty much what it means. They ARE concerned
enough about the pilot grabbing the one and only chute and leaving an
airplane full of passengers to where they passed the rule that they did.
A rule which the military disregards ALL the time by the way. They also
gave a little bit of thought to the difference between mandating safety
and infringing on personal freedoms. Otherwise, we would all be wearing
steel toed leather boots, Nomex Flight Suits, a Helmet, cotton
underwear, nomex gloves, and carrying an independent air supply every
time we went to board a 747. Actually sometimes I think that our Govt.
agencies would even do things like that if given enough of a chance!
There are lots of ways to look at the parachute issue and we could
debate each one of them, one at a time, for a very long time. But, it
happens that I am one of those people that think that if there is
anything in this world that is mine more than anyone else's, it is my
LIFE. Now some states disagree and have laws accordingly. For example,
if you try to commit suicide and fail, why ....they will run right up
and arrest you! If on the other hand, you succeed, well... They usually
will not press charges.
On that same note: If I decide not to wear a chute.... You know what?
I believe that is pretty much my business and is NOT the business of the
FAA or anyone else for that matter. You or anyone else can debate the
WORTH of that decision anytime you like, but the RIGHT TO MAKE IT is
something I reserve for myself.
As for that ELT that you mentioned? I don't have one in my aircraft. I
think they are pretty much a waste of money unless you get really
serious about the exact make and model that you purchase, and most
aircraft owners only purchase what the law forces them to. Instead I
carry a PLB, ... A personal locator beacon that has a built in GPS that
broadcasts my position and exact identity accurately on 406 Mhz. Yes, it
also has the warble on 121.5, but I trust the GPS location much better
than I do a beacon on 121.5, Civil Air Patrol not withstanding.
R/S,
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Tim Gagnon, tell the world how many times you've been in, or heard
of, a KC-10 full of passengers, not one of which was wearing a Flight
Suit or a Parachute, when said same aircraft refueled one tactical
aircraft after another. Talk about formation flight? Flying formation
is one thing, tanking on something like a KC-135 with a hard hose in the
middle of the night... Now that's something else again. My point of
view is not limited to just MARK BITTERLICH. The military practices it
ALL the time, albeit for different reasons.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Log book translation |
I'm a subscriber here for a couple years, reading quietly ... focused upon the
Nanchang ...though interested, envious, of the talk among you fellas about your
airplanes.
I'm formerly a tailhook navy puke and China hand now in Asia though I do not read
characters well enough to nail the translations you seek. However, I am surrounded
by family with university educations who can do the work.
Likely I can get log books done well and timely and, it can be fun to get involved.
Logistics: It feels easy and straightforward to have the logs scanned to a file
and sent to me.
A couple questions so I can get my thought around the work: How many pages in the
Chinee logs? Howmany lines a page? This is a guess, I know, though how many
log books do you think are the "need or helpful to be translated" group?
I'm gone for a week or so beginning today so I will not answer any reply until
week of November 12.
best ...
Melaka Jack
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
Brian
As a doctor who has worked a multitude of sporting events, I can tell you
that you are absolutely correct. I have pulled many people out of sporting,
especially biking, events after showing signs of heat exhaustion. To a
person, they don't realize that they are not performing normally and resist
being taken out of an event.
I have noticed a decrease in my mental acuity from flying in heat. It is a
lot more apparent in my T-6, which has more engine heat, than my CJ.
NO other org. makes a big deal about what you wear. ALL will make a big deal
about how you fly. They are concerned about safety, but their safety from
you is there first concern.
I can also tell you that I have not attended a lot of RPA fly-ins or clinics
in the past during warm months because of the flight suit issue. I can stay
in my home town of Tulsa and fly with my friends dressed any way that I
want.
Jim Griffin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety
On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
> <capav8r@gmail.com>
>
> Brian:
>
> Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far?
Well, it depends on how you define heat stroke. If you want to use
that to refer to the advanced stages of Perhaps not all the way to
heatstroke but there are levels of hyperthermia. I know that I have
inadvertently gone over the line from OK to early stages of
hyperthermia without knowing it ahead of time. It is only when I
stepped down from the aircraft and started to walk that I realized
how impaired I was. Remember, if you are experiencing thirst you are
already dehydrated and suffering from impairment.
> I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet
> Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say is
> drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
A C-182 is a high wing and provides protection from the sun. Sitting
in a CJ or Yak and you have the full heat-load of the sun on you. Add
to that sitting on the ground waiting to roll and you can get pretty
warm. Not the same situation as the C-182. Also, while you are
concentrating on the mission you might not be listening to the
warning bells your body is trying to send you.
You are right that the threat is less from hyperthermia than fire but
the *RISK* is greater because it is *MUCH* more likely to happen.
That is the problem people run into when getting into these
discussions. They mistake risk for threat.
> Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides the
> canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire.
And how often does that happen? I don't know of a single case of fire
in the cockpit in a Yak or CJ. Perhaps there has been one but I am
not aware of it. Feel free to enlighten me as to the frequency of the
occurrence. Regardless, it doesn't seem to be much of a risk given
the infrequency of occurrence.
OTOH, I bet that there are several people suffering from the early
stages of hyperthermia at every summertime afternoon training
session. They may not realize what it is. They may just think it is
nerves, fatigue, a touch of nausea from the yank-n-bank, and/or
thirst. The key point is that they ARE impaired and not operating as
safely as they could be. Would they be better off if they didn't have
on a Nomex suit? Perhaps. Are they less safe if there is a fire?
Perhaps.
The whole point of my post is that this is not a cut-and-dried issue.
It is possible that wearing a Nomex suit is a greater risk to your
overall safety than not wearing one. I am of the opinion that this
might be so (certainly in summer) but mostly I am encouraging people
to think about the issue rather than just accepting that something is
so because everyone else does. All I am saying is that, in response
to someone saying, "wearing Nomex makes you safer," I am responding,
"well, maybe not."
I do think that having the organization dictate how the pilot chooses
to dress in his/her cockpit is the wrong thing to do. (But we have
been here before and I pissed Drew off then too. :-)
> Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your can
> still participate in other recreational activities!!
Well, we know that Nomex is not much protection. You even said so.
Still, I was mostly just trying to inject a bit of levity into these
proceedings. There is a tendency to take these positions way too
seriously. Besides, the Boys like a nice cool breeze. OTOH, I suspect
that the crotch straps from the 'chute and harness might chafe a bit.
Hmmm, if I wore silk boxers ...
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 19
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| Subject: | AVweb Breaking News Alert |
> FOR THE LATEST BREAKING NEWS, VISIT: http://www.avweb.com
>
>>>> Another Historical Voice Lost to Time
>
> ENOLA GAY PILOT, PAUL TIBBETS DIES
> (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/992-full.html#196498)
>
> Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, the B-29 that dropped a
> nuclear bomb on Hiroshima, Japan on Aug. 6, 1945 died at his home in
> Columbus, Ohio early Thursday. He was 92. Tibbets was a 30-year-old
> Lt. Col. when he was called on to plan and execute the world-changing
> mission, a missing he told Studs Terkel in a 2002 interview
> (http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/PaulTibbets_StudsTerkel_EnolaGayInterview_2002_196499-1.html)
> that could have been even more dramatic.
>
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/992-full.html#196498
>
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