---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/10/07: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:24 AM - Pic (Yak Pilot) 2. 06:31 AM - Re: Pic (Tim Gagnon) 3. 09:22 AM - Re: Brain buckets (Roger Kemp) 4. 11:54 AM - Re: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution (Yak Pilot) 5. 02:45 PM - Birthday (Craig Payne) 6. 08:10 PM - Re: Find the Yak-50 in this picture (GreasySideUp) 7. 09:06 PM - Dennis Savarese maintenance training course (John Graham) 8. 09:44 PM - Re: Find the Yak-50 in this picture (YakL1@aol.com) 9. 09:46 PM - Re: Avgas Prices (Yak Pilot) 10. 10:08 PM - Re: Find the Yak-50 in this picture (Roger Kemp) 11. 10:10 PM - Re: Gas and helmet choice (Roger Kemp) 12. 10:17 PM - Re: Re: Brain buckets (Roger Kemp) 13. 10:48 PM - Re: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution (cjpilot710@aol.com) 14. 11:08 PM - Re: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 15. 11:24 PM - Re: Re: Find the Yak-50 in this picture (Roger Baker) 16. 11:24 PM - Communication Ear Protection - C.E.P (Samuel Sax) 17. 11:45 PM - Fw: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution (cjpilot710@aol.com) 18. 11:52 PM - Re: Communication Ear Protection - C.E.P (Samuel Sax) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:07 AM PST US From: Yak Pilot Subject: Yak-List: Pic What picture Tim? mgb ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:46 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Pic From: "Tim Gagnon" It loaded on my side...give it a few seconds and see if it does not work. I will try it again here too! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144888#144888 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/scanned_document0112_225.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:08 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Brain buckets Somewhere I have that video of the frozen chicken cannon blasting the 16 canopy. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shinden33 Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Brain buckets Doug, I was told by some AF types that the HGU-55 was designed to protect the pilot from the after effects of a bird strike on a Viper canopy at ~500kts. The canopy damage is only supposed to be a rather substantial dent. Never saw anything in the form of actual data. Scott -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Sapp Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 2:55 PM Subject: Yak-List: Brain buckets Tim or anyone, I have heard this same statement ("55 offers very little impact protection") many times, but have never actually seen any "official" testing results that might confirm claim. Could anyone out there tell me where the impact rating of all the various helmets could be found? What is the best helmet for impact protection? Always Yakin, Doug Tim Gagnon wrote: > >Just remember the -55/P offers virtually no impact protection. They are not intended to. They are there for earphones and a place to put an oxygen mask. Not much more. > >I find the helmet restricts headroom in the -50 and I have been using a cloth helmet with DC's. It offers better attenuation and is a whole lot cheaper. Plus, like Doc, I got my helmet for free via the ANG. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144224#144224 > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:12 AM PST US From: Yak Pilot Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Yes Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of interest and value. Some of which your own members did not quite believe was accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone. I took your advice (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal letter to RPA as per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an acknowledgement of its receipt let alone an answer to the question/request. No big deal... Patience is a virtue. The YAK list is a valuable tool and I agree, it is sometimes human nature to enjoy debate in all of its forms. As long as it does not get too personal, I consider such debate to be in the best interests of all involved. As you know, this is the YAK LIST and discussing an organization that flies and supports Russian aircraft seems to me to be WELL within the bounds of "normalcy", especially when you include the constant remarks made on this list by RPA members discussing RPA recent events that they have attended. Remember the near mid-air discussion? Another good example. The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited to requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed into interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth of certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around aircraft. Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored, a lot have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has learned something that they did not know originally in the process. In my heart, I sincerely believe that to be a true statement. I can understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of certain RPA rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through official RPA communication channels, but to be honest while that might be in the best interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the best interests of General Aviation in total, and those that fly formation (or want to) specifically. Further, if you will look closely, my postings have all been REPLIES, not originations. Drew, you have the right to form your own opinions about any rule or policy that you want to, regardless of whether it applies to airplanes, motorcycles or lawnmowers. More power to you. Like the old saying goes: "I may not agree with that you say, but I will support to the death your right to say it". What strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be questioning my point of view, but rather whether it is "appropriate" to express my views here in the first place rather/versus more "official channels". Of course I could be wrong. Mark Bitterlich ----- Original Message ---- From: Drew Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:18:45 PM Subject: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Mark, Just to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt. Again, my advice is to communicate this issue through admin@flyredstar.org, as I've seen you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express the human tendancy to enjoy conflict. I just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the pavement, and in the desert, its hot... ...And you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street. I'm sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else feels strongly about it, they should also write admin@flyredstar.org Now about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide levels.... Drew ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:30 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Yak-List: Birthday Happy Birthday Jarheads! Born November 10th, 1775 and still going strong. Craig Payne 2003175 cpayne@joimail.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:35 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Find the Yak-50 in this picture From: "GreasySideUp" So you are against flight suits then? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144914#144914 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:26 PM PST US From: John Graham Subject: Yak-List: Dennis Savarese maintenance training course Good evening, I respectfully submit the following in the sole interest of safety of Yak-52 flying. Earlier this week, I, along with Grant Farrell (fellow Yak owner) and my A&P/IA and his assistant had the privilege of participating in Dennis Savarese's Yak-52 maintenance training course. In short, I feel that any Yak-52 owner who is not comfortable with all (and I mean ALL) of the basic functionalities and systems (pneumatic, fuel, pitot, static, instrumentation, oil, electric, etc.) of the concepts listed below has a duty to themselves to either learn these items or take Dennis' course. It is the best deal going. The course was simply invaluable to me. The course starts out with a 4-5 hour classroom session where the systems are reviewed in depth, with special emphasis on the pneumatic system. The next day (8-9 hours) and the third day (4-6 hours) are spent hands-on (you will get dirty!) on your airplane at your location. So, can you, as a Yak-52 owner, answer the following? 1. Do you have schematics for the fuel and pneumatic system? Can you read them? What should you do to your air tanks at each annual to ensure a long life of your pneumatic system? 2. Do you know how many actuators are on your plane? Have your uplock actuators ever been removed and inspected? My plane is a 1993 and still had the original factory safety wire on the uplock actuators. A review of these actuators is a good proxy for the condition of the landing gear and flap actuators. Mine are now all being serviced as a result of our inspection. 3. Have your prop blades ever been pulled? Mine were clearly unserviced for at least 7 years and maybe longer. The grease in the prop bearings was virtually gone and in little balls. We pulled both prop blades and cleaned and greased them - what a cool thing to see! 4. How about your brakes and wheels? Do you know what happens inside your brakes when you depress the brake handle? What is the probable cause when your brakes feel mushy? 5. With respect to the pneumatic system, do you know what other systems can be operated via the emergency air valve? Can you lower your emergency gear when testing it at annual without it slamming down violently? We can now! 6. If your air starter solenoid goes bad, do you know how to start your plane using the starter button the little known (to me at least) toe switch that will bypass the solenoid and put air pressure into the engine to crank it over? 7. Do you know what you should tighten and clean on the fuel, intake and exhaust systems each time you do an oil change? 8. Can you identify all of the major parts of your engine? How about the fuel, pitot and static lines by their colors? Those colors mean something - who knew?!? 9. Do you know the empennage risk areas to check at each pre-flight inspection and how to mark them so any increase in risk is obvious? 10. Do you know the purpose of EVERY switch in both cockpits and which ones you should probably safety to the OFF position in the rear cockpit? 11. Do you know the first places to look when your main or emergency air pressure is leaking? 12. Do you know the easiest way to unlock an uplock parrot hook that has been accidentally pushed into the locking position? (And it doesn't involve a screwdriver.) 13. Can you install safety wire and do it in the proper direction? Seems simple but I learned how and would feel confident doing it in the field. 14. Can you identify all the cylinders, their firing order, the power arm cylinder, set your magneto timing, check for a valve clearance, etc.? Do you know how to easily identify which cylinder has the mis-firing plug? How to pull your plugs to alleviate hydraulic lock and how to find top dead center on a cylinder? Not that you will do them, but it is nice to know how all of these are done. And those are just the basics you learn in the course!I am not an A&P and probably won't perform anything but the basic maintenance on my plane and assist with the annual condition inspection, but the confidence in my plane and the understanding of the systems I took away from the course will allow me to trouble shoot problems and fly with exponentially higher levels of confidence. And I can't wait to update my pre-flight inspection checklist! Fly safe my friends! Thanks, John P. Graham CubFlyer1940@Yahoo.com Cell phone (847) 641-1330 __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:26 PM PST US From: YakL1@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Find the Yak-50 in this picture I certainly hope this was not at an RPA sponsored event. She looks like she needs training (having a hard time finding the forward pilot compartment) and is unfortunately NOT wearing a flight suit.... I bet she didn't get sent home to change... J. Zecherle MD ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:22 PM PST US From: Yak Pilot Subject: Re: Yak-List: Avgas Prices Doc, try to post something on the yak list and see if it goes through will you please?=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Roger Kemp =0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursda y, November 8, 2007 9:03:54 AM=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: Avgas Prices=0A=0A =0AMakes flying not for the faint of wallet! Youch! We have it good in the US, but we can=92t let this get away from us! Apathy here is becoming rapan t!=0ADoc=0A =0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak- list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman=0ASent: Thursday, Nove mber 08, 2007 1:34 AM=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: Avgas Prices=0A =0AIn the Netherlands: $ 4,20 per LITER.........=0A =0AHan s=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AVan: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak -list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp=0AVerzonden: donderdag 8 nove mber 2007 6:03=0AAan: yak-list@matronics.com=0AOnderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Avg as Prices=0ADanged! Now convert the EU to US and it is a real ouch! Do the math=85that gives our prices a whole new perspective! (~$9.12 US).=0ADoc=0A =0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Pickford=0ASent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 8:41 PM=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: Avgas P rices=0A =0ANew Zealand $6.48 for Avgas - $6.96 for Auto - Ouch !!!=0A =0A -----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Basiliere=0ASent : Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:43 PM=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubjec t: RE: Yak-List: Avgas Prices=0A =0A$3.69 self -serve here @LMO in Colorado =0A =0A =0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Craig Payne =0ATo: yak-lis t=0ASent: 11/7/2007 5:50:37 PM =0ASubject: Yak-List: Avgas Prices=0A =0AJus t paid my October fuel chit from my friendly FBO. $4.50/gallon average pric e. How bad are y'all getting hosed? Trying to get back my money in FBO coff ee and donuts but it's costing me at the Gastro Dr,'s. Either way, it's mor e heartburn....=0A =0A =0ACraig Payne=0Acpayne@joimail.com=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --=0A (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)=0A November is the Annual List F und Raiser. Click on=0A the Contribution link below to find out more abo ut=0A this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!=0A List Contribution W eb Site:=0A --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A Thank you for your generous support!=0A -Matt Dralle, List A dmin.=0A =0A - The Yak-List Email Forum -=0A --> http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0A =0A - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=0A --> http://forums.matronics.com=0A =0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.mat ronics.com/contribution=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0Ahtt p://forums.matronics.com=0A =0A =0A =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/ contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0Ahref="htt p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A =0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://foru -======================== ====================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:17 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Find the Yak-50 in this picture What 50? Is this another one of those Elmo questions?! Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Yak-List: Find the Yak-50 in this picture I bet no one can find the Yak-50 in this picture. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144849#144849 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/scanned_document0112_213.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:05 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Gas and helmet choice Drew, Can you find out from Sam who makes those noise attenuating ear plugs. I suspect they are the same that you find in the hunting/ sport shooting industry. If so they are made by Game Ear. Or you can go to your Beltone dealer and pay about $1500 for a pair. But then again, what is the price of your hearing at 75 or > when you are trying to get directions or correct a fast food order placed with one of proliferate illiterate fast food workers! Again using a set of foam ear plugs with the ear muffs provide significant reduction in the 3000-6000 dB range protecting your ears from that M-14 rumble and at a huge savings, Foam Ear plugs are a cheap insurance for your hearing. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 6:40 AM Subject: Yak-List: Gas and helmet choice After checking out the HGU/68P helmet, I'm getting one and paying for it through the savings made by using autogas in the 285... Thanks Craig and Brian, PS: Sam Sax has a new device for the hearing impaired; the ear plugs have the micro-speakers factory imbedded, so its seperate from the helmet! Your helmet can be passive noise canceling, and you further have standard ear plugs. Would seem this would cut down the most noise for those already on the road to becoming deaf...it looked pretty slick, I don't know the manufacturer? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:47 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Brain buckets Herb, The Grunt kevalar helmets are not light by any means compared the HGU-55, 33, or 35. The next generation helmets being fielded for the army, AF special ops, marines, and seals (if they wear one at all) are much lighter while providing better protection from cou counter cou injuries (sorry forgot the spelling for cou). Basically for the non medical, the initial shock of impact sends the brain in its water bath crashing against the skull in the direction of the impact. It then rebounds against the opposite side of the skull where it is bruised also. The brain gets bruised on both sides or fore and aft depending on the initial direction of the impact. This is your basic concussion. It is like a bouncing ball inside your skull with the repercussions. Imagine a supersonic round hitting the unmovable object with the inside of that object being gelatinous. Even though the round does not penetrate the casing (kevelar) the energy does. The rounds fired from our handguns and rifles are all supersonic (high velocity). The .45 is not, it is subsonic. Remember the additional weight you carry on your head is additional weight transmitted to your cervical spine multiplied by the force of the G and the weight of the helmet. We try to lighten our helmets in the aviation arena to decrease that weight while providing some protection from incidental impact with the canopy under neg G, acoustic protection for our ears and nap padding to protect the neck during times of flexion/extension. The AF helmets we currently fly with are close to meeting that. Not perfect, but nothing is perfect. If you are going to spend a fair amount of your flying time at risk of being in a 9 G turning fight with all sorts of extra weight do da s hung on them (your cranium and ultimately your cervical spine) to do your mission. You want the lightest you can get with some protection from blast injury in ejection and the incidental whack on the head from the abrupt reversal in a fight or to defeat a missile in flight. The Army's helicopter helmets are much heavier than the AF's. They have kevelar in theirs where we do not. They have a lot higher risk of bad guys firing rifle rounds at their heads than the fast movers do. Just a few reasons for why the AF has the helmets it has. My old AF helmet serves me well. With the Oregon Aero modes (which incidentally AF is using on the line now), it is quit comfortable! Doc Kemp -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Coussons Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Brain buckets Dan, Excellent post. I also picked the 33 in Kevlar for the low weight and range of movement. Having known acro pilots that have hit the canopy in higher neg G maneuvers I think this helmet provides adequate protection from that likely scenario. I have only known of 3 pilots to exit the plane with a chute. They all did fine with the 55/33 helmet. I have not spoken to him personally but the photos I saw showed that Sergeis Sukhoi came to rest inverted after the wings came off. He also uses either a 33 or a 55. It would be interesting to get his perspective. (He is also 1 of the 3 I know who has bailed.) I also invested in the 7 point ratcheting Hooker - as protection from hitting the canopy. I like it much better than the standard 5 point. Very comfortable in the neg G. The lap belt holds your butt in the seat better. But I am a little concerned about getting off quickly compared to the standard 5 point in the 52. As an aside - Gentex makes the kevlar helmet for the Marines on the ground. My partner in my practice is a former Marine and has been shot twice. One time in the head with that helmet on. Obviously he survived, the shooter was killed and Mike went on to graduate tops in his class in college and medical school and is a physician now. I think the kevlar shell seems pretty reliable. I do not know the difference in the thickness of the Marine vs the flight helmets but I would think they're both designed for being lightweight. Herb On Nov 9, 2007, at 5:56 AM, fougapilot wrote: > > When I was looking to buy a new helmet last year, I did a bunch of > reading online and had made my mind n a Helicopter helmet because of > the increased protection. But, after speaking with the folks at > flightsuit, I opted for the standard HGU-55. There are many > advantage to either helmets, but I felt that the -55 would be better > for the type of flying I do. > > One has to look at helicopter flying to understand the need for > extra shell protection. When a helicopter goes down (along with the > pilots might I add) there is a significant chance that it may not > stay upright upon "landing", the extra shell protection was designed > to protect the head against the very likely side impacts one's > cranium would sustain in such an event. However, as anything comes > with a price this increased in side protection also means an > increases in weight (about 2lbs more if memory serves). I don't know > about you, but when I do acro, I much prefer having a light weight > helmet. > > Flightsuits offers both the -33 and the -55 in Kevlar. The Kevlar > helmet is a little more expensive ($100ish) but provides with an > increased protection (over the standard helmet) while retaining a > lesser weight. > > The -55 helmet was designed for fighter pilots and offers many > advantage for our type of flying. It has both the front and rear > "spaces" cut very high. This offer and improved field of vision. The > front is cut off high enough so I do not see the helmet. The rear > cut is specifically designed to offer freedom of head movement. The > helmet does not restrict my head movement!. > > My CJ has an advantage over a helicopter; it had fixed wings. The > chances of having it rolled on me during a "controlled" off site > landing are small simply because said wings should absorb any > rolling tendency. If I find myself in a position where I no longer > control the airplane (either because of a midair or structural > failure) then I would like to hope I will think of using another > safety item I carry on board with me and let the airplane do it's > own thing while I watch from the comfort of my parachute. The -55 > was designed for parachute landings. > > At the end of the day, there is no right and no wrong. In my book, > having the light weight and increased field of vision outweigh the > "limited" increase in protection from a heavier helmet. > > My 2 cents, to each his own. > > Dan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144806#144806 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:03 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Mark, Are you dies paying member? Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 11/10/2007 2:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, yakplt@yahoo.com writes: Yes Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of interest and value. Some of which your own members did not quite believe was accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone. I took your advice (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal letter to RPA as per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an acknowledgement of its receipt let alone an answer to the question/request. No big deal... Patience is a virtue. The YAK list is a valuable tool and I agree, it is sometimes human nature to enjoy debate in all of its forms. As long as it does not get too personal, I consider such debate to be in the best interests of all involved. As you know, this is the YAK LIST and discussing an organization that flies and supports Russian aircraft seems to me to be WELL within the bounds of "normalcy", especially when you include the constant remarks made on this list by RPA members discussing RPA recent events that they have attended. Remember the near mid-air discussion? Another good example. The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited to requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed into interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth of certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around aircraft. Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored, a lot have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has learned something that they did not know originally in the process. In my heart, I sincerely believe that to be a true statement. I can understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of certain RPA rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through official RPA communication channels, but to be honest while that might be in the best interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the best interests of General Aviation in total, and those that fly formation (or want to) specifically. Further, if you will look closely, my postings have all been REPLIES, not originations. Drew, you have the right to form your own opinions about any rule or policy that you want to, regardless of whether it applies to airplanes, motorcycles or lawnmowers. More power to you. Like the old saying goes: "I may not agree with that you say, but I will support to the death your right to say it". What strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be questioning my point of view, but rather whether it is "appropriate" to express my views here in the first place rather/versus more "official channels". Of course I could be wrong. Mark Bitterlich ----- Original Message ---- From: Drew Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:18:45 PM Subject: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Mark, Just to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt. Again, my advice is to communicate this issue through _admin@flyredstar.org_ (mailto:admin@flyredstar.org) , as I've seen you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express the human tendancy to enjoy conflict. I just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the pavement, and in the desert, its hot... ...And you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street. I'm sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else feels strongly about it, they should also write _admin@flyredstar.org_ (mailto:admin@flyredstar.org) Now about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide levels.... Drew (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Yes Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of interest and value. Some of which your own members did not quite believe was accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone. I took your advice (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal letter to RPA as per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an acknowledgement of its receipt let alone an answer to the question/request. No big deal... Patience is a virtue. The YAK list is a valuable tool and I agree, it is sometimes human nature to enjoy debate in all of its forms. As long as it does not get too personal, I consider such debate to be in the best interests of all involved. As you know, this is the YAK LIST and discussing an organization that flies and supports Russian aircraft seems to me to be WELL within the bounds of "normalcy", especially when you include the constant remarks made on this list by RPA members discussing RPA recent events that they have attended. Remember the near mid-air discussion? Another good example. The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited to requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed into interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth of certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around aircraft. Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored, a lot have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has learned something that they did not know originally in the process. In my heart, I sincerely believe that to be a true statement. I can understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of certain RPA rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through official RPA communication channels, but to be honest while that might be in the best interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the best interests of General Aviation in total, and those that fly formation (or want to) specifically. Further, if you will look closely, my postings have all been REPLIES, not originations. Drew, you have the right to form your own opinions about any rule or policy that you want to, regardless of whether it applies to airplanes, motorcycles or lawnmowers. More power to you. Like the old saying goes: "I may not agree with that you say, but I will support to the death your right to say it". What strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be questioning my point of view, but rather whether it is "appropriate" to express my views here in the first place rather/versus more "official channels". Of course I could be wrong. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 17:19 Subject: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Mark, Just to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt. Again, my advice is to communicate this issue through admin@flyredstar.org, as I've seen you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express the human tendancy to enjoy conflict. I just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the pavement, and in the desert, its hot... ...And you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street. I'm sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else feels strongly about it, they should also write admin@flyredstar.org Now about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide levels.... Drew ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:04 PM PST US From: Roger Baker Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Find the Yak-50 in this picture That photo has nothing to do with flight suits. It's all about another use for MMO. ________________________________________________________________________ ___________ On Nov 10, 2007, at 8:09 PM, GreasySideUp wrote: > > > So you are against flight suits then? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144914#144914 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:31 PM PST US From: "Samuel Sax" Subject: Yak-List: Communication Ear Protection - C.E.P Drew, et al The HGU-68/P is my choice of helmet also. Work great for us over 6' tall as the one-hand-operation knob is left of center and saves almost 2" of canopy clearance vs. the HGU 33. The hearing device you mentioned is the C.E.P (Communication Ear Protection). This device is common with Helicopter pilots and as far as I am concerned is superior to the ANR. The ANR "cancels" the low frequency range but all the noise still hits the ear drum. The ANR does not provide any enhance passive noise reduction over the helmet's existing insulation. The CEP is a neat and simple solution that works so well in my CJ. A simple pig tail wire is attached to one of the helmet earphone (in parallel) and than splits to a "Y" that have a transducer embedded in an ear plug that is made of the same material as standard foam earplugs that you roll between your fingers and place in the ear opening. This foam provides a very efficient Passive Noise Reduction while the audio is ported right into your ear canal (the foam earplug is hollow in the center to allow the audio to go directly to your ear drum). Works amazingly well and provides better noise protection (30db). Also, I don't need to set the radio or intercom volume to max and I do not need another power plug (as with the ANR) and you can fly in any aircraft again, without needing a power socket or drag your battery pack... You can log on to the manufacturer's web site to get the details and to order one, if you wish. Cost is around $120. www.cep-usa.com/index.htm FWIW, Sam Sax Miami, FL _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:40 AM Subject: Yak-List: Gas and helmet choice After checking out the HGU/68P helmet, I'm getting one and paying for it through the savings made by using autogas in the 285... Thanks Craig and Brian, PS: Sam Sax has a new device for the hearing impaired; the ear plugs have the micro-speakers factory imbedded, so its seperate from the helmet! Your helmet can be passive noise canceling, and you further have standard ear plugs. Would seem this would cut down the most noise for those already on the road to becoming deaf...it looked pretty slick, I don't know the manufacturer? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:42 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Corrections : Are you a dues paying member? (Didn't have my glasses on) ____________________________________ From: cjpilot710 Sent: 11/10/2007 4:02:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time Subj: Re: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Mark, Are you dies paying member? Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 11/10/2007 2:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, yakplt@yahoo.com writes: Yes Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of interest and value. Some of which your own members did not quite believe was accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone. I took your advice (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal letter to RPA as per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an acknowledgement of its receipt let alone an answer to the question/request. No big deal... Patience is a virtue. The YAK list is a valuable tool and I agree, it is sometimes human nature to enjoy debate in all of its forms. As long as it does not get too personal, I consider such debate to be in the best interests of all involved. As you know, this is the YAK LIST and discussing an organization that flies and supports Russian aircraft seems to me to be WELL within the bounds of "normalcy", especially when you include the constant remarks made on this list by RPA members discussing RPA recent events that they have attended. Remember the near mid-air discussion? Another good example. The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited to requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed into interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth of certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around aircraft. Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored, a lot have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has learned something that they did not know originally in the process. In my heart, I sincerely believe that to be a true statement. I can understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of certain RPA rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through official RPA communication channels, but to be honest while that might be in the best interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the best interests of General Aviation in total, and those that fly formation (or want to) specifically. Further, if you will look closely, my postings have all been REPLIES, not originations. Drew, you have the right to form your own opinions about any rule or policy that you want to, regardless of whether it applies to airplanes, motorcycles or lawnmowers. More power to you. Like the old saying goes: "I may not agree with that you say, but I will support to the death your right to say it". What strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be questioning my point of view, but rather whether it is "appropriate" to express my views here in the first place rather/versus more "official channels". Of course I could be wrong. Mark Bitterlich ----- Original Message ---- From: Drew Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:18:45 PM Subject: Yak-List: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution Mark, Just to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt. Again, my advice is to communicate this issue through _admin@flyredstar.org_ (mailto:admin@flyredstar.org) , as I've seen you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express the human tendancy to enjoy conflict. I just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the pavement, and in the desert, its hot... ...And you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street. I'm sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else feels strongly about it, they should also write _admin@flyredstar.org_ (mailto:admin@flyredstar.org) Now about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide levels.... Drew (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List) ____________________________________ and _Make AOL Your Homepage_ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:04 PM PST US From: "Samuel Sax" Subject: Yak-List: RE: Communication Ear Protection - C.E.P Drew, et al The HGU-68/P is my choice of helmet also. Work great for us over 6' tall as the one-hand-operation knob is left of center and saves almost 2" of canopy clearance vs. the HGU 33. The hearing device you mentioned is the C.E.P (Communication Ear Protection). This device is common with Helicopter pilots and as far as I am concerned is superior to the ANR. The ANR "cancels" the low frequency range but all the noise still hits the ear drum. The ANR does not provide any enhance passive noise reduction over the helmet's existing insulation. The CEP is a neat and simple solution that works so well in my CJ. A simple pig tail wire is attached to one of the helmet earphone (in parallel) and than splits to a "Y" that have a transducer embedded in an ear plug that is made of the same material as standard foam earplugs that you roll between your fingers and place in the ear opening. This foam provides a very efficient Passive Noise Reduction while the audio is ported right into your ear canal (the foam earplug is hollow in the center to allow the audio to go directly to your ear drum). Works amazingly well and provides better noise protection (30db). Also, I don't need to set the radio or intercom volume to max and I do not need another power plug (as with the ANR) and you can fly in any aircraft again, without needing a power socket or drag your battery pack... You can log on to the manufacturer's web site to get the details and to order one, if you wish. Cost is around $120. www.cep-usa.com/index.htm FWIW, Sam Sax Miami, FL _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:40 AM Subject: Yak-List: Gas and helmet choice After checking out the HGU/68P helmet, I'm getting one and paying for it through the savings made by using autogas in the 285... Thanks Craig and Brian, PS: Sam Sax has a new device for the hearing impaired; the ear plugs have the micro-speakers factory imbedded, so its seperate from the helmet! Your helmet can be passive noise canceling, and you further have standard ear plugs. Would seem this would cut down the most noise for those already on the road to becoming deaf...it looked pretty slick, I don't know the manufacturer? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.