Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:38 AM - Re: 8130.2F Operating Limitations (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 10:05 AM - Re: 8130.2F Operating Limitations (Jon Boede)
3. 03:04 PM - Re: Typhoon & 130 (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 8130.2F Operating Limitations |
Jon,
You make some good points. However, I would like to point out, with
regards to 91.319(b) and the 8130.2F section 161 (b)(2), the aircraft's
OL's begin first with Section 158, Groups of Aircraft and then 161(b)(2)
and tell the reader that they can not operate the aircraft unless it is
to meet the requirements 91.319(b). Therefore 91.319(b) governs the
flight rules of the airplane. So lets look at the governing rule
91.319(b):
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
shown that-
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
design features
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
operating limitations
The operative word in 91.319(b) is "until". Once the aircraft has met
the requirements of 91.319(b), THEN it can be flown IAW the rest of the
aircraft's Operating Limitations.
Proficiency flights and Proficiency Area are stated in Section 158
(c)(3) and are incorporated into Experimental, Exhibition aircraft OL's.
Section 158 does refer to Section 161. But OL's must start with
Section 158.
158. GROUPS OF AIRCRAFT. Aircraft eligible for experimental
airworthiness certification for
exhibition or air racing range from unpowered gliders to
high-performance jet aircraft. In order to
properly certificate this wide range of aircraft, and in response to the
many public comments received,
the FAA has divided these aircraft into four groups. This was done in
order to establish standardized
operating limitations, proficiency areas, and inspection requirements
appropriate to each aircraft.
Minimum operating limitations for each group are provided in paragraph
161 of this order. The FAA
will make a determination of which group the aircraft will operate in
based on the following:
c. Group III, Piston-Powered: Warbirds, Vintage, Replica, and Unique
Aircraft.
(3) Proficiency Area. All proficiency flights for an aircraft under 800
horsepower will be
conducted in airspace within an operational radius of 300 nautical miles
from its designated home base
airport. Aircraft 800 horsepower and above will be limited to an
operational radius of 600 nautical miles
from their designated home base airport.
By the insertion of the above paragraph in the aircraft's OL's,
proficiency flights are authorized.
A somewhat related definition of proficiency considering the absence of
the word practice is:
Proficiency - skillfulness in the command of fundamentals deriving from
practice and familiarity; "practice greatly improves proficiency"
One of the things I was educated about from a person at FAA headquarters
in DC was; "If the FAA wants to restrict you, the regulation will
clearly spell out the restriction. A person should not interpret a
restriction into a regulation." This occurs way too often, particularly
with FSDO personnel. An example of interpreting a restriction was an
inspector believed because the FAA Order 8130.2F did not specifically
say the aircraft could take off and land at any airport (except Class B
airports) within the prescribed 300 NM proficiency area, the airplane
was restricted to taking off and landing at the aircraft's home base
airport OR to events listed on the annual program letter or amendments
thereto. PERIOD!! After "discussing" this with the inspector and doing
my homework and calling EAA headquarters and AIR200 in DC, which is
where the previous quote came from, the inspector was gracious enough to
accept that he was wrong.
With the elimination of the 300/600 mile proficiency area restriction
from OL's, this problem should not occur again.
Merry Christmas,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Boede
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:31 AM
Subject: Yak-List: 8130.2F Operating Limitations
Does it bother anybody else that 8130.2F (even Change 3) says under
161(b)2 that:
(2) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of
meeting the requirements
of =A7 91.319(b), as stated in the program letter (required by =A7
21.193) for this aircraft. This aircraft must
be operated in accordance with applicable air traffic and general
operating rules of part 91, as well as all
additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of =A7
91.319(e). These operating limitations
are a part of the special airworthiness certificate, and are to be
carried in the aircraft at all times
and made available to the pilot in command of the aircraft.
(Applicability: All)
And if you read 91.319(b) it basically says that you can only fly the
aircraft to demonstrate that it's safe.
(2) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of
meeting the requirements of =A7 91.319(b)...
Which is to say that after you've demonstrated that the aircraft is
safe, you can't fly it again.
What #2 SHOULD say is that "During the flight test phase..." which is
a perfectly reasonable statement.
And then you have 161(b)30 which says:
(30) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose(s)
of [identify purpose(s)],
to exhibit the aircraft, or participate in events outlined in
[identify applicant]'s program letter (or any
amendments) describing compliance with =A7 21.193(d). In addition,
this aircraft must be operated in
accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of
part 91, and all additional
limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of =A7 91.319(e).
These operating limitations are a part
of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and
be available to the pilot in command
of the aircraft.
(Applicability: All)
Which puts it in conflict with 161(b)2 because neither is qualified
with before/after flight test phase has been completed.
Moreover, unless "proficiency/practice" is listed in #30, you can't
fly your aircraft for proficiency/practice even if #2 is cleaned up.
Where else does it SAY that you can fly for proficiency? It's implied,
but not stated.
And what's the difference between "proficiency flight" and "practice
flight"? Because #10 says you can carry passengers during proficiency
flights but it doesn't mention practice flights.
I know that these are nits, but they're nits in the RULES and that's a
big old mess.
Jon
Message 2
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| Subject: | 8130.2F Operating Limitations |
Well, that's kind-of the funny thing... 158 says more, but it doesn't get w
ritten into your limitations. It just gives guidance for writing the limit
ations, but is not the limitations themselves. When you get your actual A/
W certificate, it doesn't have the guidance from 158 in it, just the limita
tions from 161. And as has been said here plenty of times before, your li
mitations are YOUR limitations -- you have to go see what was written for y
our airplane because nebulous documents in other places don't apply, all th
at applies is what is written for your plane. Which is why poorly written
and conflicting limitations is such a problem.
91.319(b) is just fine... it makes perfect sense.
What DOESN'T make sense is a limitation (161(b)2) that says that the ONLY r
eason you can fly your aircraft it to show compliance with 91.319(b). It d
oesn't say that you can go to airshows with it, it doesn't say that you can
fly for proficiency, it doesn't say that something somewhere else says you
can do more, it doesn't say that you can do ANYTHING other than "show comp
liance" with 91.319(b).
I agree with the general "if it doesn't say you can't, you can" approach...
but the language of "ONLY" in #2 and "NO ... OTHER THAN" in #30 says: You
can't.
I know what they meant, it's what they said that I have a problem with. :-
)
On the other hand, if all the experimental exhibition aircraft have basical
ly been flying in violation of their restrictions for the last ten years, t
his may have voided them... kind-of like trying to get a judge to enforce d
eed restrictions that all the neighbors have been ignoring for years.
Jon
From: dsavarese@elmore.rr.comTo: yak-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Yak-Lis
t: 8130.2F Operating LimitationsDate: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:37:28 -0600
Jon,
You make some good points. However, I would like to point out, with regard
s to 91.319(b) and the 8130.2F section 161 (b)(2), the aircraft's OL's begi
n first with Section 158, Groups of Aircraft and then 161(b)(2) and tell th
e reader that they can not operate the aircraft unless it is to meet the re
quirements 91.319(b). Therefore 91.319(b) governs the flight rules of the
airplane. So lets look at the governing rule 91.319(b):
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate
outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that=97
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds
and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design f
eatures
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating l
imitations
The operative word in 91.319(b) is "until". Once the aircraft has met the
requirements of 91.319(b), THEN it can be flown IAW the rest of the aircraf
t's Operating Limitations.
Proficiency flights and Proficiency Area are stated in Section 158 (c)(3) a
nd are incorporated into Experimental, Exhibition aircraft OL's. Section 1
58 does refer to Section 161. But OL's must start with Section 158.
158. GROUPS OF AIRCRAFT. Aircraft eligible for experimental airworthiness c
ertification for
exhibition or air racing range from unpowered gliders to high-performance j
et aircraft. In order to
properly certificate this wide range of aircraft, and in response to the ma
ny public comments received,
the FAA has divided these aircraft into four groups. This was done in order
to establish standardized
operating limitations, proficiency areas, and inspection requirements appro
priate to each aircraft.
Minimum operating limitations for each group are provided in paragraph 161
of this order. The FAA
will make a determination of which group the aircraft will operate in based
on the following:
c. Group III, Piston-Powered: Warbirds, Vintage, Replica, and Unique Aircra
ft.
(3) Proficiency Area. All proficiency flights for an aircraft under 800 hor
sepower will be
conducted in airspace within an operational radius of 300 nautical miles fr
om its designated home base
airport. Aircraft 800 horsepower and above will be limited to an operationa
l radius of 600 nautical miles
from their designated home base airport.
By the insertion of the above paragraph in the aircraft's OL's, proficiency
flights are authorized.
A somewhat related definition of proficiency considering the absence of the
word practice is:
Proficiency - skillfulness in the command of fundamentals deriving from pra
ctice and familiarity; "practice greatly improves proficiency"
One of the things I was educated about from a person at FAA headquarters in
DC was; "If the FAA wants to restrict you, the regulation will clearly spe
ll out the restriction. A person should not interpret a restriction into a
regulation." This occurs way too often, particularly with FSDO personnel.
An example of interpreting a restriction was an inspector believed becaus
e the FAA Order 8130.2F did not specifically say the aircraft could take of
f and land at any airport (except Class B airports) within the prescribed 3
00 NM proficiency area, the airplane was restricted to taking off and landi
ng at the aircraft's home base airport OR to events listed on the annual pr
ogram letter or amendments thereto. PERIOD!! After "discussing" this with
the inspector and doing my homework and calling EAA headquarters and AIR20
0 in DC, which is where the previous quote came from, the inspector was gra
cious enough to accept that he was wrong.
With the elimination of the 300/600 mile proficiency area restriction from
OL's, this problem should not occur again.
Merry Christmas,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Boede
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:31 AM
Subject: Yak-List: 8130.2F Operating Limitations
Does it bother anybody else that 8130.2F (even Change 3) says under 161(b)2
that: (2) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose o
f meeting the requirements
of =A7 91.319(b), as stated in the program letter (required by =A7 21.193)
for this aircraft. This aircraft must
be operated in accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating
rules of part 91, as well as all
additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of =A7 91.319
(e). These operating limitations
are a part of the special airworthiness certificate, and are to be carried
in the aircraft at all times
and made available to the pilot in command of the aircraft.(Applicability:
All) And if you read 91.319(b) it basically says that you can only fly the
aircraft to demonstrate that it's safe. (2) No person may operate this airc
raft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of =A7 91.319(b
)... Which is to say that after you've demonstrated that the aircraft is sa
fe, you can't fly it again. What #2 SHOULD say is that "During the flight t
est phase..." which is a perfectly reasonable statement. And then you have
161(b)30 which says:
(30) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose(s) of [
identify purpose(s)],
to exhibit the aircraft, or participate in events outlined in [identify app
licant]=92s program letter (or any
amendments) describing compliance with =A7 21.193(d). In addition, this air
craft must be operated in
accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of part
91, and all additional
limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of =A7 91.319(e). These
operating limitations are a part
of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be a
vailable to the pilot in command
of the aircraft.(Applicability: All) Which puts it in conflict with 161(b)2
because neither is qualified with before/after flight test phase has been
completed. Moreover, unless "proficiency/practice" is listed in #30, you ca
n't fly your aircraft for proficiency/practice even if #2 is cleaned up. W
here else does it SAY that you can fly for proficiency? It's implied, but
not stated. And what's the difference between "proficiency flight" and "pra
ctice flight"? Because #10 says you can carry passengers during proficiency
flights but it doesn't mention practice flights. I know that these are nit
s, but they're nits in the RULES and that's a big old mess. Jon
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Typhoon & 130 |
Here's a question for ya;? Whats the airflow got to be like going into the Typhoon's
engine air intakes?? Seems to me that would be the biggest problem.? Would
it not be sucking air from inside the 130?
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