Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:19 AM - Re: New CJ Canopy Glass (Ira Saligman)
2. 04:31 AM - Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Rob Rowe)
3. 06:02 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Roger Kemp)
4. 06:05 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (david stroud)
5. 06:19 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (DaBear)
6. 06:36 AM - Merry Christmas! (Jill Gernetzke)
7. 06:52 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Herb Coussons)
8. 07:52 AM - Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (tjyak50)
9. 08:03 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (tjyak50)
10. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Jan Mevis)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: B&C Alternator (Cliff Coy)
12. 10:23 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
13. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
14. 12:22 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Roger Kemp)
15. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Roger Kemp)
16. 12:34 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Roger Kemp)
17. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Brian Lloyd)
18. 01:31 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
19. 01:32 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
20. 02:23 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Don Milbourn)
21. 02:35 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Don Milbourn)
22. 02:50 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Yak Pilot)
23. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: B&C Alternator (Yak Pilot)
24. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Yak Pilot)
25. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Yak Pilot)
26. 05:18 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Roger Kemp)
27. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Roger Kemp)
28. 06:23 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (tjyak50)
29. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Yak Pilot)
30. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: New CJ Canopy Glass |
If they are a good vendor, maybe we can negotiate a quantity discount
for CJ
and Yaks by securing a certain size order. The big up front cost in
this is
making the mold.
The guys in Arizona have some pretty good bubble canopies.
Ira Saligman
o 610 940 0420
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
<mailto:isaligman@Saligman.com> isaligman@Saligman.com
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
Hi TJ,
Remote diagnostics are notoriously difficult ... but I'm wondering if something
other than your DMR-200D is in play here, as the replacement made no difference
(or made matters seemingly worse).
When you said "the battery would dead short at shut down" I presume this took the
50 Amp fuse out in short order ... if so I'll speculate that it may have been
the generator turning into a 3KW motor (c.100A) that could cause this action
(the onset of this is what normally trips the differential relay off).
Can you recall if the red "generator offline" warning light;
- was operating normally i.e turned off & stayed off above c.36%?
- illuminated again when you reduced the throttle below c.34%, or did it just stay
off?
Did you happen to try turning the generator switch "off" on the front panel to
try and force it offline?
If so what, if anything, happened?
Cheers, Rob Rowe
G-YAKX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153971#153971
Message 3
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Got any 5x8 glossies of that spline coupling? Where did you get the spline
coupling from? Take it off the generator? Where did you get the base plate
to mount the alternator to? And the last question, you got any wiring
diagrams for the system after you have hooked up the existing (+), (-), and
exciter wire from the old generator to what was the carbon pile regulator
and power panel now to the new solid state regulator?
Granted I am not a avionics or electricity genius. Imbecile is more like it.
But, my last encounter with the YAK electrical system did not leave me with
the "it's simple" feeling 3 weeks later.
Please enlighten me on the process of this conversion. I'm all for saving a
few bucks with the cost of fuel going up along with taxes for everything
including the air we breath!
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 23, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:
> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
> alternator in a Yak.
B&C works extremely well and is very expensive. Most of the other
conversion I have seen are GM truck alternators. They work really
well and are dirt cheap once you weld the spline coupling onto the
alternator shaft.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
I looked high and low for an auto alt that would easily be set
up to mount on the Huosai engine's alt pad but never found
one and finally muckled onto a nice Jasco unit on ebay. Brian...
which GM truck alt has a cooperative mounting method? Thanks.
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
C-FDWS Christavia
Fairchild 51 under construction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>
> > Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
> > alternator in a Yak.
>
> B&C works extremely well and is very expensive. Most of the other
> conversion I have seen are GM truck alternators. They work really
> well and are dirt cheap once you weld the spline coupling onto the
> alternator shaft.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P). It is excellent but expensive. But it
mates to the engine just fine.
DaBear
Tom Johnson wrote:
> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
> alternator in a Yak.
>
> Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it all
> direct?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Merry Christmas! |
Group,
We would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Wishing you all many trouble free, fun hours in your birds in 2008!
M-14P, Incorporated
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417
(928)-681-4400
Fax(928)681-4404
www.m-14p.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
I also have a B&C - i just had a small problem with the wiring and
contacted the company as the unit came on the plane and I had no
paperwork/diagrams/manuals. They just sent out a nice packet of info
- the unit seems to work great. if anyone wants the diagrams or
photos - email mail me.
Herb
On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:18 AM, DaBear wrote:
>
> I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P). It is excellent but expensive. But
> it mates to the engine just fine.
>
> DaBear
>
> Tom Johnson wrote:
>> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
>> alternator in a Yak.
>> Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it
>> all direct?
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
Brian:
I am going to order an Alternator (about $1000 bucks), but I fly my airplane 5
times a week and can't get the parts here until after the holiday.
Rob:
My "Gen Out" light has been notoriously unreliable for the last year.
It does not come on at any time, except maybe once in a while.
I discovered if I "TAP" on relay TKE52PODR which is connected to terminal "C" of
the combined device the light comes on, but then won't work correctly for long.
Funky relay I think.
That replacement "200" would never kick the gen offline and flat short the battery,
but I switched off the GEN switch instantly and nothing else popped. That
"200" is out of the airplane.
My gen comes on normally at 36%, but does not turn off below 34%. It is more like
20%. The GEN OUT light may or may not come on.
Tj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154006#154006
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
I have met the owner of B&C a few times and he is a good guy. Clearly a "Sparky"
if there ever was one.
I considered going with an auto or marine alternator but I also like the fact that
B&C is supporting our aircraft with a specific solution.
The weather is perfect for flying for us now and I don't want to be down for long
with my head stuck up in the hell hole of a Yak.
Who sells the JASCO system for the Yak, is it just the Coy's?
Tj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154011#154011
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
I also installed the B&C alternator and voltage regulation circuitry in my
Yak 50, because I had problems with the voltage regulator. Unless you're
very good at this kind of old-type electronics (e.g. Mark Bitterlich, the
editor of the White Paper), you're better served with a modern device. An
added advantage is the gain in weight.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Tom,
We have the adapter in stock and can have an alternator drop shipped to you.
Cheers,
Cliff
tjyak50 wrote:
>
> I have met the owner of B&C a few times and he is a good guy. Clearly a "Sparky"
if there ever was one.
>
> I considered going with an auto or marine alternator but I also like the fact
that B&C is supporting our aircraft with a specific solution.
>
> The weather is perfect for flying for us now and I don't want to be down for
long with my head stuck up in the hell hole of a Yak.
>
> Who sells the JASCO system for the Yak, is it just the Coy's?
>
> Tj
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154011#154011
>
>
>
--
Clifford Coy
Director of Maintenance
Border Air Ltd
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: callto:Cliff.Coy <callto:cliff.coy>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 24, 2007, at 6:00 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Got any 5x8 glossies of that spline coupling? Where did you get the
> spline
> coupling from? Take it off the generator? Where did you get the
> base plate
> to mount the alternator to?
I have seen several alternators mounted to both the M14 and the
Huosai engines. While I did not do the work myself all seemed
straight forward mechanical jobs. The big difference is that one
needs to fabricate a base plate with the seal for the Huosai engine.
I believe that the spline was removed from the generator and welded
to the alternator input shaft. Most base plates seems to be
relatively simple machined aluminum blocks. No two have been alike to
my eyes (B&C excepted, of course) but they didn't seem to be either
complex or need a CNC mill to make.
> And the last question, you got any wiring
> diagrams for the system after you have hooked up the existing (+),
> (-), and
> exciter wire from the old generator to what was the carbon pile
> regulator
> and power panel now to the new solid state regulator?
That part is easy. The 'B' lead from the alternator goes to the main
bus tie with an appropriate current limiting device; i.e. breaker,
fuse, or fusible link; as near as possible to the bus tie. You get
rid of all that stuff associated with the generator as it is not
needed. You dispose of the filter and the regulator along with the
generators. That gets you almost another 3-4 Kg of mass out of your
airplane (in addition to the generator itself).
Some (most) alternators are internally regulated. They do not need an
external regulator and so need only two wires: the 'B' lead which
carries the power from the alternator to the bus and an excitation
lead that provides a small amount of battery power to "turn on" the
alternator initially. Some alternators use this second wire to allow
you to turn the alternator on or off. (This latter feature is
desirable as it allows you to force the alternator off should the
regulator fail and the alternator "run away".)
If you use an externally-regulated alternator you will need a new
alternator-controller/regulator you can use a standard aircraft or
automotive device. B&C makes one for their alternator. It is very
nice but also very pricey.
> Granted I am not a avionics or electricity genius. Imbecile is more
> like it.
> But, my last encounter with the YAK electrical system did not leave
> me with
> the "it's simple" feeling 3 weeks later.
There is nothing simple about the generator system in the aircraft
(Yak or CJ) and to my way of thinking it is one of the first things I
would replace. It adds a lot of weight an complexity. It also uses
lots of electromechanical switches (relays) which are much more prone
to misadjustment and failure. So keep the generator until it fails
and then put in an alternator so you don't have to mess with it again.
> Please enlighten me on the process of this conversion. I'm all for
> saving a
> few bucks with the cost of fuel going up along with taxes for
> everything
> including the air we breath!
Well, the B&C is NOT the way to save a few bux. OTOH, once you spend
the money you can be satisfied that it will work trouble-free longer
than anything else in the airplane will. It will also get rid of
something like 13Kg of mass. The GM truck alternator is dirt cheap
but you have to fabricate the mounting plate and weld on the spline
coupling. Not hard to do but not an instant bolt-on replacement either.
So, how much is your time worth to you? Would you rather be trouble
shooting the generator or flying? Are you paying someone to fix it
for you? If so, the B&C may be cheap. Are you doing it yourself and
you really like working on your airplane? Fix the generator then. I
like playing with steam engines for fun and doing celestial
navigation. The arcanity appeals to me. I think generators are cool
the way they work. But I wouldn't want one in my airplane.
Hmm, are you telling me that you want a cheap alternator conversion
kit for M14 and Huosai? What price do you think would be reasonable?
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 24, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Cliff Coy wrote:
>
> Tom,
> We have the adapter in stock and can have an alternator drop
> shipped to you.
This strikes me as the most cost-effective way to go.
My only comment is that you need some way to force the alternator off-
line should its regulator fail and the alternator "run away". In that
case the bus voltage will go way too high and the battery will fail,
sometimes in a very spectacular but frightening fashion. Immediately
thereafter all your avionics will go with it.
Some internally regulated alternators have a diode trio that makes
them "self-exciting". That means that once they come on, you can't
turn them off until the alternator stops turning. Not good if the
internal regulator goes TU and turns the field on all the way. Now
you have a runaway alternator you can't turn off. Better to remove
the diode trio and provide the excitation for the alternator's
internal regulator and field through an external wire and switch. You
can turn that switch off and turn off the alternator even if the
regulator fails. This mod is pretty simple.
OTOH, Cliff may be providing an alternator already configured for
external control which makes the point moot.
BTW, many alternators have a lead that supposedly turns the
alternator on or off. This is actually just a control signal to the
regulator. The regulator is still powered by the diode trio inside
the alternator. In this type of alternator/regulator if the internal
regulator fails with the field turned on, the on/off lead no longer
works and you can't turn off your alternator. You need to make sure
that the field current and regulator excitation is suppled through a
separate, external circuit that is under the pilot's control.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 14
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Herb (the other Doc),
Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the output to the
system?
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Coussons
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
I also have a B&C - i just had a small problem with the wiring and
contacted the company as the unit came on the plane and I had no
paperwork/diagrams/manuals. They just sent out a nice packet of info
- the unit seems to work great. if anyone wants the diagrams or
photos - email mail me.
Herb
On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:18 AM, DaBear wrote:
>
> I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P). It is excellent but expensive. But
> it mates to the engine just fine.
>
> DaBear
>
> Tom Johnson wrote:
>> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
>> alternator in a Yak.
>> Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it
>> all direct?
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
Ok, I'm definitely an imbecile on this and definitely not a sparky...are
talking a direct hookup via the solid state regulator?
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System
I also installed the B&C alternator and voltage regulation circuitry in my
Yak 50, because I had problems with the voltage regulator. Unless you're
very good at this kind of old-type electronics (e.g. Mark Bitterlich, the
editor of the White Paper), you're better served with a modern device. An
added advantage is the gain in weight.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
Message 16
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Hey Brian,
Thanks. Seems $500 to 800 would be fair if we are talking about a GM
conversion.
Doc
By the way see your Christmas and call your Happy New Year!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year on this fine Xmas eve to all on the list!
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 24, 2007, at 6:00 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Got any 5x8 glossies of that spline coupling? Where did you get the
> spline
> coupling from? Take it off the generator? Where did you get the
> base plate
> to mount the alternator to?
I have seen several alternators mounted to both the M14 and the
Huosai engines. While I did not do the work myself all seemed
straight forward mechanical jobs. The big difference is that one
needs to fabricate a base plate with the seal for the Huosai engine.
I believe that the spline was removed from the generator and welded
to the alternator input shaft. Most base plates seems to be
relatively simple machined aluminum blocks. No two have been alike to
my eyes (B&C excepted, of course) but they didn't seem to be either
complex or need a CNC mill to make.
> And the last question, you got any wiring
> diagrams for the system after you have hooked up the existing (+),
> (-), and
> exciter wire from the old generator to what was the carbon pile
> regulator
> and power panel now to the new solid state regulator?
That part is easy. The 'B' lead from the alternator goes to the main
bus tie with an appropriate current limiting device; i.e. breaker,
fuse, or fusible link; as near as possible to the bus tie. You get
rid of all that stuff associated with the generator as it is not
needed. You dispose of the filter and the regulator along with the
generators. That gets you almost another 3-4 Kg of mass out of your
airplane (in addition to the generator itself).
Some (most) alternators are internally regulated. They do not need an
external regulator and so need only two wires: the 'B' lead which
carries the power from the alternator to the bus and an excitation
lead that provides a small amount of battery power to "turn on" the
alternator initially. Some alternators use this second wire to allow
you to turn the alternator on or off. (This latter feature is
desirable as it allows you to force the alternator off should the
regulator fail and the alternator "run away".)
If you use an externally-regulated alternator you will need a new
alternator-controller/regulator you can use a standard aircraft or
automotive device. B&C makes one for their alternator. It is very
nice but also very pricey.
> Granted I am not a avionics or electricity genius. Imbecile is more
> like it.
> But, my last encounter with the YAK electrical system did not leave
> me with
> the "it's simple" feeling 3 weeks later.
There is nothing simple about the generator system in the aircraft
(Yak or CJ) and to my way of thinking it is one of the first things I
would replace. It adds a lot of weight an complexity. It also uses
lots of electromechanical switches (relays) which are much more prone
to misadjustment and failure. So keep the generator until it fails
and then put in an alternator so you don't have to mess with it again.
> Please enlighten me on the process of this conversion. I'm all for
> saving a
> few bucks with the cost of fuel going up along with taxes for
> everything
> including the air we breath!
Well, the B&C is NOT the way to save a few bux. OTOH, once you spend
the money you can be satisfied that it will work trouble-free longer
than anything else in the airplane will. It will also get rid of
something like 13Kg of mass. The GM truck alternator is dirt cheap
but you have to fabricate the mounting plate and weld on the spline
coupling. Not hard to do but not an instant bolt-on replacement either.
So, how much is your time worth to you? Would you rather be trouble
shooting the generator or flying? Are you paying someone to fix it
for you? If so, the B&C may be cheap. Are you doing it yourself and
you really like working on your airplane? Fix the generator then. I
like playing with steam engines for fun and doing celestial
navigation. The arcanity appeals to me. I think generators are cool
the way they work. But I wouldn't want one in my airplane.
Hmm, are you telling me that you want a cheap alternator conversion
kit for M14 and Huosai? What price do you think would be reasonable?
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Ok, I'm definitely an imbecile on this and definitely not a
> sparky...are
> talking a direct hookup via the solid state regulator?
With the B&C you end up with the following connections:
1. Alternator 'B' lead (the fat wire) goes back to your main power
distribution bus;
2. three leads from your bus to the regulator, one switched
(alternator field power), one to sense the voltage, and one for the
low-voltage light;
3. a lead from the regulator to the alternator (field current);
4. ground.
If you have an internally regulated alternator it can be as simple as
just a B-lead connection. OTOH, that gets a little dangerous if the
alternator runs away as it will fry everything in the electrical
system unless you can disconnect the alternator somehow.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:33 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Hey Brian,
> Thanks. Seems $500 to 800 would be fair if we are talking about a GM
> conversion.
Thanks for the info. Let me think about it.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Herb (the other Doc),
> Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the
> output to the
> system?
If you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It
is the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.
http://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org>
was easer to install than try to find out which part was bad and take a
guess and pay 400.00 just for one part that might be the problem ,or pay 8
or 9 hundred and have a great system.A no brainer
Thanks Don.
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
> I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P). It is excellent but expensive. But it
> mates to the engine just fine.
>
> DaBear
>
> Tom Johnson wrote:
>> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
>> alternator in a Yak.
>> Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it all
>> direct?
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
I have the Jasco in my Yak 52 it works great It was easer to install
than try to find out witch part was bad and take a guess and pay 400.00
just for one part that might be the problem or pay 8 or 9 hundred and
have a great system. a no brainier.
Thanks Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Johnson
To: Yak-List@Matronics. Com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:38 PM
Subject: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
alternator in a Yak.
Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it all
direct?
Tj
---------------------------
Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701 or Toll Free: 866-475-9199
E: tomjohnson@cox.net or Fax: 623-321-5843
Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
* Privacy Information
** NO insurance can be started or changed by email until confirmed in
writing.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
There is more than one B&C Alternator. The one that comes with the western
ized YAKS's is a true alternator with an excitation field winding. It come
s with an external regulator that includes over-voltage protection. It is
a terrific unit but has a rather high price tag at around $700 or so. Then
there is the very small PMG device that B&C sells that outputs about 10 am
ps at 28 volts DC maximum. This unit has no field winding, but instead is
a perm. magnet generator. This unit has an external voltage regulator. It
also has an OPTIONAL over-voltage crowbar circuit that I would highly sugg
est using as well. The latter unit is very light weight which is why you f
ind it on most aerobatic platforms using the M-14. =0A =0AThe stock Russia
n electrical system is better than a lot of people thing. It just is a rea
l SOB to learn and understand. You can buy a new Russian generator for abo
ut $100 brand new if you know where to look. The only parts that are hard
to find are the relays, especially the "Combined Device" master control rel
ay. However, this unit can be repaired, or even made a-new if you have a l
ittle talent and some time. You smpke a Russian part and it is a few hundr
ed maximum. You smoke a B&C Alternator and it's a quick $700 ..... pay me
now, see you later. =0A =0AThere are simply pro and con's no matter which
way you go. I've worked on both systems... and have kept the Russian one b
y choice. =0A =0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=0A =0A----- Original Message ----=0A
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASen
t: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:30:33 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Altern
>=0A=0A=0AOn Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:=0A=0A> --> Yak-Li
st message posted by: "Roger Kemp" =0A> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>=0A>=0A>
Herb (the other Doc),=0A> Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to
regulate the =0A> output to the=0A> system?=0A=0AIf you are interested in
the B&C alternator system, see this page. It =0Ais the wiring diagram for
the B&C alternator. Very simple.=0A=0Ahttp://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf=0A
=0A=0A--=0ABrian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive=0Abrian HY
PHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682=0A+1.916.367.2131 (voi
ce) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)=0A=0AI fly because it releases my mind
from the tyranny of petty things . . .=0A=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry=0A
=0APGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C=0APGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4
=
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
The larger style B&C with outboard regulator includes built in over-voltage
protection. The wiring in the aircraft now can be also used to provide th
e on-off capability needed. Switching to a B&C is easy. Finding exactly t
he right wires to hook everything in to may not be. Depends on your talent
level. =0A=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom
: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: M
onday, December 24, 2007 1:32:38 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: B&C Altern
>=0A=0A=0AOn Dec 24, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Cliff Coy wrote:=0A=0A> --> Yak-List
message posted by: Cliff Coy <cliff@gesoco.com>=0A>=0A> Tom,=0A> We have t
he adapter in stock and can have an alternator drop =0A> shipped to you.
=0A=0AThis strikes me as the most cost-effective way to go.=0A=0AMy only co
mment is that you need some way to force the alternator off- =0Aline should
its regulator fail and the alternator "run away". In that =0Acase the bus
voltage will go way too high and the battery will fail, =0Asometimes in a
very spectacular but frightening fashion. Immediately =0Athereafter all y
our avionics will go with it.=0A=0ASome internally regulated alternators ha
ve a diode trio that makes =0Athem "self-exciting". That means that once t
hey come on, you can't =0Aturn them off until the alternator stops turning
. Not good if the =0Ainternal regulator goes TU and turns the field on all
the way. Now =0Ayou have a runaway alternator you can't turn off. Better
to remove =0Athe diode trio and provide the excitation for the alternator'
s =0Ainternal regulator and field through an external wire and switch. You
=0Acan turn that switch off and turn off the alternator even if the =0Ar
egulator fails. This mod is pretty simple.=0A=0AOTOH, Cliff may be providin
g an alternator already configured for =0Aexternal control which makes the
point moot.=0A=0ABTW, many alternators have a lead that supposedly turns t
he =0Aalternator on or off. This is actually just a control signal to the
=0Aregulator. The regulator is still powered by the diode trio inside =0A
the alternator. In this type of alternator/regulator if the internal =0Are
gulator fails with the field turned on, the on/off lead no longer =0Aworks
and you can't turn off your alternator. You need to make sure =0Athat the
field current and regulator excitation is suppled through a =0Aseparate,
external circuit that is under the pilot's control.=0A=0A--=0ABrian Lloyd
3191 Western Drive=0Abrian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT c
om Cameron Park, CA 95682=0A+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.91
2.0788 (fax)=0A=0AI fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of pet
ty things . . .=0A=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry=0A=0APGP key ID:
12095C52A32A1B6C=0APGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209
==================
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
I (respectfully) disagree with Brian on this one. Maybe there are quick an
d dirty replacements available, but none of them that I have looked at are
what I would call "cheap". In truth, the cheapest system to maintain is th
e Russian one. All the people that have switched to B&C and so forth means
there is usually a plethora of spare parts available. Want a brand new ne
ver used Russian Generator? I can get you one right now for $100. Try rep
lacing ANY alternator today for that price. So what if it quits after 600
hours?=0A =0AThe rub is the complexity..... which is not all that bad once
you figure it out. =0A =0AFor example, had Tom asked me, or had I read his
message sooner, I could have and would have told him that the carbon pile
regulator has nothing to do with this. If you are still around Tom, failur
e of the generator to cut out at low RPM should be noticed by a very large
increase in reverse battery current on the meter in your 50. If it is doin
g what you THINK it is doing, look at the ammeter in the cockpit and slowl
y bring the engine to idle. The normal ammeter reading should be a few amp
s. As you bring it to idle the ammeter should go past zero in the OPPOSITE
direction as you get near idle... and then the generator light should come
on. DO NOT CONFUSE THE GENERATOR LIGHT NOT COMING ON WITH THE GENERATOR N
OT DISCONNECTING!!!! If the generator does not actually disconnect, which
I sincerely doubt is happening to you because otherwise there would have be
en lots of smoke by now..... then as idle is reached the ammeter will be pe
gged negative! Is
this happening? If not, then it is a LIGHT problem not a GENERATOR DISCON
NECT problem. Apples and Oranges. =0A =0AProof can also be had by turning
on your master with the engine NOT RUNNING. Turn on your generator switch
on very quickly while watching the ammeter. If it pegs negative than you
have a generator disconnect problem. If it (the ammeter) does not move, th
en you have a LIGHT problem, and not a DISCONNECT problem. =0A =0ADisconn
ect problems are caused purely by the combined device. This relay can actu
ally be ADJUSTED to control drop out. But... my guess is that you simply h
ave a bad GENERATOR LIGHT RELAY. Simple problem. Cheap to fix. =0A =0ATo
everyone else, let me say this... I agree with Brian Lloyd 99.99999999999
9999999999% of the time with anything and everything he says and respect hi
s viewpoints without question. This is that one tiny percent of the time w
hen I completely disagree. I believe that ripping the whole electrical sys
tem apart to replace it with "An American Version" is without merit unless
you are trying to address the weight. To do it just because you don't want
to learn how the Russian system works is a choice of course, but my questi
on to that is: "didn't we all guess that something like this might eventual
ly happen when we PURCHASED a foreign made aircraft, or were we all just na
ive?=0A =0AI Do agree with Brian that the reason most people do not switch
is because there IS NO "easy bolt on solution". But I can maintain 90% of
the Russian system much cheaper than anything you can put on that works nea
rly as well. Yes it takes time to learn, but if my White Paper sucks so ba
dly that most can not understand it, I'll re-write it. In the meant time,
if you have a question... ask me. I know that system pretty darn well by n
ow. =0A =0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=0A =0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom:
Brian Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon
day, December 24, 2007 12:53:27 AM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: White Paper
yd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0A=0A=0AOn Dec 23, 2007, at 6:16 PM, tjyak50 wrot
>=0A> This topic is officially back alive...=0A>=0A> My generator has not b
een tripping off correctly at low RPM =0A> (Reverse Current). I installed
a new Carbon Pile Regulator with no =0A> change.=0A=0AWhy keep messing wi
th the generator? It is heavy and prone to =0Afailure. Why not just switch
to an alternator and be done with the =0Aproblems? The switch is easier o
n the M14 as there is already a seal =0Afor the generator shaft coupling.
Is it because there is not a dirt- =0Acheap, bolt-on solution?=0A=0A=0A--
=0ABrian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive=0Abrian HYPHEN 192
7 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682=0A+1.916.367.2131 (voice)
+1.270.912.0788 (fax)=0A=0AI fly because it releases my mind from th
e tyranny of petty things . . .=0A=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry=0A=0APGP k
ey ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C=0APGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254
========================
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
For what it is worth:
Mark.Bitterlich@navy.mil work... but it is CHRISTMAS and I am taking some time
off thank you Jesus.
yakplt@yahoo.com Everywhere else.
markbitterlich@embarqmail.com personal.
252-671-7005 cell if you are in a REALLY bad way.
Merry Christmas,
Mark
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:49:17 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System
Tj,
Contact mark.bitterlich@navy.mil. He has worked this problem before.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System
This topic is officially back alive...
My generator has not been tripping off correctly at low RPM (Reverse
Current). I installed a new Carbon Pile Regulator with no change.
Installed a spare DMR-200D (S/n: 1361243) "Combined Device" and the problem
actually got worse, where the battery would dead short at shut down.
(Thanks a lot Bill!)
I opened my original Combined Device (S/n: 1861584) and cleaned the points
which looked grody. Also started messing with the adjustments.
See the Reverse Polarization relay here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nou8dcJAA7s
There are 2 adjustments on the "Teter-Toter". One to adjust the relative
position of the contacts, the other I have no idea but it would be
convenient if it adjusted the thing that doesn't work.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153927#153927
Message 26
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Thanks Doc Herb.
Doc Kemp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Herb (the other Doc),
> Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the
> output to the
> system?
If you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It
is the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.
http://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
Mark,
Old warriors don't take time off. They still take leave or .the just fade
away :>)).
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System
For what it is worth:
Mark.Bitterlich@navy.mil work... but it is CHRISTMAS and I am taking some
time off thank you Jesus.
yakplt@yahoo.com Everywhere else.
markbitterlich@embarqmail.com personal.
252-671-7005 cell if you are in a REALLY bad way.
Merry Christmas,
Mark
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:49:17 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System
Tj,
Contact mark.bitterlich@navy.mil. He has worked this problem before.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System
This topic is officially back alive...
My generator has not been tripping off correctly at low RPM (Reverse
Current). I installed a new Carbon Pile Regulator with no change.
Installed a spare DMR-200D (S/n: 1361243) "Combined Device" and the problem
actually got worse, where the battery would dead short at shut down.
(Thanks a lot Bill!)
I opened my original Combined Device (S/n: 1861584) and cleaned the
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Stealing partially from Brian Lloyd and Mark Bitterlich... with respect to hooking
a B&C model LR3C-28 Voltage Regulator to a Yak.
1) The "B" fat wire from the alternator connects to the bus bar in the DC power
box. It connects in the same place where you remove the connection from the
bus to the terminal marked "CETb" on the Combined Relay (Aka: 200-Gizmo).
2) Terminal "F" on the alternator is wired to terminal #4 on the new Voltage Regulator.
3) Generator On / Off switch now becomes the Alternator On / Off switch and acts
as the Alternator Field. The wire that was connected to terminal marked "B"
on the Combined relay can serve this fucntion? and would be connected to terminal
#6 on the new regulator.
4) A wire to the Bus from the new Voltage Regulator terminal #3 acts as the Bus
Voltage Sense.
5) A beefy ground wire from the New Voltage regulator pin #7
And now a question...
6) The "Low Voltage" pin from the new Voltage Regulator is pin #5.
Appears this lamp is triggered by pin #5 going to GROUND as it shows the lamp connected
to the bus with a fuse. This is how the system works in my Yak, so this
wire could go directly to the existing lamp (barrel) to accomplish this function
and still keep the existing "Test" function intact? In my airplane the
GEN OUT light center pin is always hot with the battery on and the barrel gets
ground from the TEST relay or the GEN OUT relay.
Some of this assumes any switches or wires you re-use are known good, so lets at
least pretend that for now.
Comments please - NO FLAMES... I am just a rookie.
If these connections sound reasonable I will try it and take pictures to document
forever.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154119#154119
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
I am no longer a "warrior"... just a "used to be" old fart at this point.
Freaking Marines don't even want to let me carry a weapon anymore in IRAQ~!
=0A=0A(screw that~!)=0A=0AMerry Christmas, =0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Or
iginal Message ----=0AFrom: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>=0ATo: yak-
list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:25:12 PM=0ASubject:
RE: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System=0A=0A=0AMark,=0AO
ld warriors don=92t take time off. They still take leave or =85the just fad
e away :>)).=0AMerry Christmas and Happy New Year,=0ADoc=0A =0AFrom: owner-
yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Yak Pilot=0ASent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:24 PM=0ATo: yak-
list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Gene
rator System=0A =0AFor what it is worth:=0A =0AMark.Bitterlich@navy.mil w
ork... but it is CHRISTMAS and I am taking some time off thank you Jesus.
=0A =0Ayakplt@yahoo.com Everywhere else. =0A =0Amarkbitterlich@embarqmai
l.com personal. =0A =0A252-671-7005 cell if you are in a REALLY bad way.
=0A =0AMerry Christmas, =0A =0AMark=0A=0A=0A =0A----- Original Message --
--=0AFrom: Roger Kemp <viperdoc@mindspring.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.co
m=0ASent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:49:17 PM=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: Re
: White Paper on Russian Generator System=0A=0A--> Yak-List message posted
by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>=0A=0ATj,=0AContact mark.bitterl
ich@navy.mil. He has worked this problem before.=0ADoc=0A=0A-----Original M
essage-----=0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-yak
-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50=0ASent: Sunday, December 2
3, 2007 8:17 PM=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: White
yak50" <tomjohnson@cox.net>=0A=0AThis topic is officially back alive...=0A
=0AMy generator has not been tripping off correctly at low RPM (Reverse=0AC
urrent). I installed a new Carbon Pile Regulator with no change. =0A=0AIn
stalled a spare DMR-200D (S/n: 1361243) "Combined Device" and the problem
=0Aactually got worse, where the battery would dead short at shut down.=0A(
Thanks a lot Bill!)=0A=0AI opened my original Combined Device (S/n: 1861584
) and cleaned the =0A =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronic
s.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navig
-========================
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 24, 2007, at 6:23 PM, tjyak50 wrote:
>
> Stealing partially from Brian Lloyd and Mark Bitterlich... with
> respect to hooking a B&C model LR3C-28 Voltage Regulator to a Yak.
>
> 1) The "B" fat wire from the alternator connects to the bus bar in
> the DC power box. It connects in the same place where you remove
> the connection from the bus to the terminal marked "CETb" on the
> Combined Relay (Aka: 200-Gizmo).
>
> 2) Terminal "F" on the alternator is wired to terminal #4 on the
> new Voltage Regulator.
>
> 3) Generator On / Off switch now becomes the Alternator On / Off
> switch and acts as the Alternator Field. The wire that was
> connected to terminal marked "B" on the Combined relay can serve
> this fucntion? and would be connected to terminal #6 on the new
> regulator.
>
> 4) A wire to the Bus from the new Voltage Regulator terminal #3
> acts as the Bus Voltage Sense.
>
> 5) A beefy ground wire from the New Voltage regulator pin #7
Sounds right so far.
>
> And now a question...
> 6) The "Low Voltage" pin from the new Voltage Regulator is pin #5.
> Appears this lamp is triggered by pin #5 going to GROUND as it
> shows the lamp connected to the bus with a fuse.
That is correct.
> This is how the system works in my Yak, so this wire could go
> directly to the existing lamp (barrel) to accomplish this function
> and still keep the existing "Test" function intact?
> In my airplane the GEN OUT light center pin is always hot with the
> battery on and the barrel gets ground from the TEST relay or the
> GEN OUT relay.
I don't have the schematic for the Yak-50 or Yak-52 but the generator
off-line (low voltage) light in CJ6A is always connected to ground
and power applied to the bulb by a relay so you could not do that in
a CJ6A. Another thing to consider is to make sure that the two
existing low-voltage lamps (they are in parallel) doesn't draw too
much current for the low voltage switch in the regulator to sink. If
the bulbs draw too much current you could burn out the low-voltage
indicator circuit in the regulator.
> Some of this assumes any switches or wires you re-use are known
> good, so lets at least pretend that for now.
>
> Comments please - NO FLAMES... I am just a rookie.
> If these connections sound reasonable I will try it and take
> pictures to document forever.
This all seems reasonable to me.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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