Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:15 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Jan Mevis)
2. 02:17 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Jan Mevis)
3. 02:23 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Jan Mevis)
4. 06:11 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Roger Kemp)
5. 09:26 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
6. 09:31 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
7. 09:37 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
8. 10:04 AM - Alternator vs. Generator (Brian Lloyd)
9. 11:41 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Jan Mevis)
10. 11:48 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Jan Mevis)
11. 12:22 PM - Alternators etc. (Jerry Painter)
12. 12:58 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
13. 01:11 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Brian Lloyd)
14. 03:52 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Yak Pilot)
15. 03:55 PM - Fw: New CJ Canopy Glass (ByronMFox@aol.com)
16. 03:56 PM - Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System (Rob Rowe)
17. 04:19 PM - Re: Alternator vs. Generator (Yak Pilot)
18. 04:21 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Yak Pilot)
19. 04:23 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Yak Pilot)
Message 1
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You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a crowbar and an
overvoltage module plus some fuses. The overvoltage module is a thyristor
that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where you need a 2
amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C website.
I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar, the OVM-28
thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp
alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means that I
never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't need it, and
the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).
By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE BATTERY, it
needs a voltage at its output to regulate !!!
So I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original
Russian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the
Russian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for more than a
year now, without any problems.
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
Sent: maandag 24 december 2007 21:20
Subject: RE: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
Herb (the other Doc),
Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the output to the
system?
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Coussons
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
I also have a B&C - i just had a small problem with the wiring and
contacted the company as the unit came on the plane and I had no
paperwork/diagrams/manuals. They just sent out a nice packet of info
- the unit seems to work great. if anyone wants the diagrams or
photos - email mail me.
Herb
On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:18 AM, DaBear wrote:
>
> I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P). It is excellent but expensive. But
> it mates to the engine just fine.
>
> DaBear
>
> Tom Johnson wrote:
>> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco
>> alternator in a Yak.
>> Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it
>> all direct?
>
>
Message 2
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I forgot to mention: I have a permanent magnet alternator, so that's why I
have to use the PMR1 voltage regulator of B&C.
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: maandag 24 december 2007 22:31
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Herb (the other Doc),
> Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the
> output to the
> system?
If you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It
is the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.
http://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 3
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You=92re absolutely correct, Mark. I have the small permanent magnet
alternator and the corresponding circuitry, and it works fine because I
know
that I must not use any heavy power consumers. I left in all the
original
Russian equipment, so that one day, when I want to, I can go back to the
Russian system very quickly.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: maandag 24 december 2007 23:50
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
There is more than one B&C Alternator. The one that comes with the
westernized YAKS's is a true alternator with an excitation field
winding.
It comes with an external regulator that includes over-voltage
protection.
It is a terrific unit but has a rather high price tag at around $700 or
so.
Then there is the very small PMG device that B&C sells that outputs
about 10
amps at 28 volts DC maximum. This unit has no field winding, but
instead is
a perm. magnet generator. This unit has an external voltage regulator.
It
also has an OPTIONAL over-voltage crowbar circuit that I would highly
suggest using as well. The latter unit is very light weight which is
why
you find it on most aerobatic platforms using the M-14.
The stock Russian electrical system is better than a lot of people
thing.
It just is a real SOB to learn and understand. You can buy a new
Russian
generator for about $100 brand new if you know where to look. The only
parts that are hard to find are the relays, especially the "Combined
Device"
master control relay. However, this unit can be repaired, or even made
a-new if you have a little talent and some time. You smpke a Russian
part
and it is a few hundred maximum. You smoke a B&C Alternator and it's a
quick $700 ..... pay me now, see you later.
There are simply pro and con's no matter which way you go. I've worked
on
both systems... and have kept the Russian one by choice.
Mark Bitterlich
----- Original Message ----
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:30:33 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Herb (the other Doc),
> Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the
> output to the
> system?
If you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It
is the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.
http://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6Econtribution"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target=_blank>http:==================
=====
Message 4
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Hey Brian,
Even I can understand this! This truly falls in the KISS principle realm!
Thanks, Merry Christmas!
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Herb (the other Doc),
> Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the
> output to the
> system?
If you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It
is the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.
http://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 25, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
>
> You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a
> crowbar and an
> overvoltage module plus some fuses.
Sounds like you are using their smaller dynamo instead of their
alternator. The LR3C-28 has the OV crowbar built-in and doesn't need
the capacitor.
> The overvoltage module is a thyristor
> that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where you
> need a 2
> amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C website.
Right. You short the field power to ground right now (to ensure that
the alternator is well and truly off-line) and pop the breaker to
provide a clear indication to the pilot. The indication of an
overvoltage event is a low-voltage light and a popped field breaker.
BTW, did anyone ever install the overvoltage protection circuit I got
Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric Connection to design for the Yak and CJ?
> I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar,
> the OVM-28
> thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp
> alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means
> that I
> never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't
> need it, and
> the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).
>
> By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE
> BATTERY, it
> needs a voltage at its output to regulate !!!
That is fairly normal for any sort of alternator system.
> So I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original
> Russian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the
> Russian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for
> more than a
> year now, without any problems.
You are using the much smaller and simpler dynamo system. B&C has a
full alternator system available and it does not have any such
limitations.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 25, 2007, at 6:09 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Hey Brian,
> Even I can understand this! This truly falls in the KISS principle
> realm!
> Thanks, Merry Christmas!
Yes. An alternator is very KISS compared to a generator system. Other
than the armature of the alternator itself, there are no moving parts.
I like generators the same way I like steam engines and clockwork
toys. They are very cool in the way they have all that complexity to
do what we do very simply today using a lot fewer parts.
But if you plan to depend on it, get something simpler.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
I was rereading the B&C website and realized I provided the link to
the wrong alternator. For a 28V system using a B&C alternator you
need the LS1A regulator, not the LR3A-28. The wiring diagram is
virtually identical but I did want to point people to the right item.
Here is the wiring diagram for the LS1A:
http://www.bandc.biz/Ls1A_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 8
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| Subject: | Alternator vs. Generator |
Mark and I usually end up on the same side of an argument. I was a
bit surprised at his comment but I think that we are probably still
pretty much on the same side of this discussion too.
First, let me say that there is nothing wrong with a generator. They
have real advantages in some situations. Turbine engines often use a
generator because you can also use it as a starter to spin up the gas-
generator section.
A generator can be made much more reliable by replacing the
electromechanical (carbon pile or vibrator plus several relays)
regulator with a solid-state regulator. Zefftronics used to make them
for aircraft (PMA'd for spam cans) but I am having trouble finding
them now. Jimco makes them for older automobiles and tractors. See:
http://www.jimcotest.com/ji-gvr01.htm. These would be satisfactory in
an experimental aircraft.
But generators are more complex than alternators and require an
additional circuitry to prevent them from becoming electrical motors
and to prevent them from burning themselves up under heavy load.
Since the generator uses a rotating mechanical switch (the
commutator) to convert the AC into DC, you have additional
maintenance on brushes. The arcing at the commutator emits radio
frequency (RF) noise thus requiring some sort of filter on the output
of the generator to allow the radios to work properly. Also, the
field of a generator must be "flashed" (a high-current passed through
it) to ensure it has some residual magnetism to "kick-start" the
generator when the engine begins to turn. This is not an issue with
an alternator. The control circuitry for an alternator is just much
simpler. (Note: the wiring for a generator and an alternator is
pretty much the same.)
So an alternator is just flat-out a simpler device. Simple means
fewer things to go wrong and therefore better reliability.
Now to the $64 questions: should you replace your generator with an
alternator? Well, if the generator is working properly I would say
no. But when the generator fails I would seriously consider replacing
it with an alternator and pulling about 30 lbs out of the airplane in
the form of generator, filter, regulator, and associated wiring.
Your milage (and opinion) may vary. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 9
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It's a small alternator (producing AC current).
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: dinsdag 25 december 2007 18:24
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 25, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
>
> You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a
> crowbar and an
> overvoltage module plus some fuses.
Sounds like you are using their smaller dynamo instead of their
alternator. The LR3C-28 has the OV crowbar built-in and doesn't need
the capacitor.
> The overvoltage module is a thyristor
> that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where you
> need a 2
> amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C website.
Right. You short the field power to ground right now (to ensure that
the alternator is well and truly off-line) and pop the breaker to
provide a clear indication to the pilot. The indication of an
overvoltage event is a low-voltage light and a popped field breaker.
BTW, did anyone ever install the overvoltage protection circuit I got
Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric Connection to design for the Yak and CJ?
> I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar,
> the OVM-28
> thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp
> alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means
> that I
> never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't
> need it, and
> the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).
>
> By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE
> BATTERY, it
> needs a voltage at its output to regulate !!!
That is fairly normal for any sort of alternator system.
> So I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original
> Russian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the
> Russian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for
> more than a
> year now, without any problems.
You are using the much smaller and simpler dynamo system. B&C has a
full alternator system available and it does not have any such
limitations.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 10
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Brian, we might have a different definition for the word dynamo here in
Europe. When referring to the dynamo we think of a device like the one
developed by the Belgian engineer Zenobe Gramme, producing DC current. I've
found the word "generator" - used by the Russians - always very confusing,
since apparently it is used as well for alternate as for direct current
devices.
But the small 10 amp device I have, produces alternate current.
All the best,
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: dinsdag 25 december 2007 18:24
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
On Dec 25, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
>
> You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a
> crowbar and an
> overvoltage module plus some fuses.
Sounds like you are using their smaller dynamo instead of their
alternator. The LR3C-28 has the OV crowbar built-in and doesn't need
the capacitor.
> The overvoltage module is a thyristor
> that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where you
> need a 2
> amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C website.
Right. You short the field power to ground right now (to ensure that
the alternator is well and truly off-line) and pop the breaker to
provide a clear indication to the pilot. The indication of an
overvoltage event is a low-voltage light and a popped field breaker.
BTW, did anyone ever install the overvoltage protection circuit I got
Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric Connection to design for the Yak and CJ?
> I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar,
> the OVM-28
> thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp
> alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means
> that I
> never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't
> need it, and
> the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).
>
> By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE
> BATTERY, it
> needs a voltage at its output to regulate !!!
That is fairly normal for any sort of alternator system.
> So I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original
> Russian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the
> Russian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for
> more than a
> year now, without any problems.
You are using the much smaller and simpler dynamo system. B&C has a
full alternator system available and it does not have any such
limitations.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 11
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| Subject: | Alternators etc. |
-52TW's (some anyway) used a Skytronics unit. No idea what they cost.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
Arlington Municipal Airport (KAWO)
Hangar A-6
19203 59th Dr. NE
Arlington, WA 98223
425-876-0865
JP@FlyWBA.com
http://www.FlyWBA.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 25, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
>
> It's a small alternator (producing AC current).
Yes, that is true. Technically it is a dynamo because it uses a
permanent magnet and there is no way to control its output voltage
other than through an outboard shunt or switching regulator.
I tend to reserve the use of the word "alternator" for the device
that has an electromagnet (field) on the armature. The output is
controlled by varying the field current. This is what the regulator
does.
But, yes, a dynamo is a type of alternator.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
On Dec 25, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
>
> Brian, we might have a different definition for the word dynamo
> here in
> Europe. When referring to the dynamo we think of a device like the one
> developed by the Belgian engineer Zenobe Gramme, producing DC current.
Ah. I have seen the permanent magnet AC generator called both dynamo
and magneto. I try not to use the latter around aviation as it gets
confused with the magneto used for ignition.
> I've
> found the word "generator" - used by the Russians - always very
> confusing,
> since apparently it is used as well for alternate as for direct
> current
> devices.
I suppose that any device to produces electrical power from
mechanical motion could legitimately be called a generator. We call
multi-kilowatt devices powered by a diesel engine that produce mains
power a "generator set" here in the US.
Checking my dictionary:
dynamo: a machine for converting mechanical energy into electrical
energy; a generator.
magneto: a small electric generator containing a permanent magnet and
used to provide high-voltage pulses, esp. (formerly) in the ignition
systems of internal combustion engines.
alternator: a generator that produces an alternating current.
generator: a dynamo or similar machine for converting mechanical
energy into electricity.
So, now we have many words that seem to mean the same thing and are
suitable for confusing everyone.
And if you think about it, the 'alternator' we use produces DC output
by virtue of its diode array.
Isn't English wonderful! I know of no language that encourages such
ambiguity and outright confusion!
>
> But the small 10 amp device I have, produces alternate current.
>
> All the best,
Thank you and Merry Christmas.
Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Jan, make sure..... HOLY COW DARN SURE that you also use their recommended
crowbar over-voltage protection with that particular device. The way the v
oltage regulator is designed, if the regulating pass transistor shorts (and
it can... and does... and has) then unregulated voltage is fed right to th
e mains. The battery will try to keep it from going over the top, but even
tually you will boil the batteries too. Eventually the voltage will be hig
h enough to start doing damage to your avionics. Seen this happen three ti
mes with those devices so far. Their kit offers a tiny little crowbar circ
uit that pops a breaker and then opens a relay to disconnect the pmg from t
he aircraft mains. Crude but effective. The only part you really need fro
m them is their crow bar circuit for $25. The rest is available from any a
utomotive hardware store and in fact that is the type of relay they provid
e in their kit. =0A=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message
----=0AFrom: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.c
om=0ASent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 5:17:24 AM=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: B
nformavia.be>=0A=0AI forgot to mention: I have a permanent magnet alternato
r, so that's why I=0Ahave to use the PMR1 voltage regulator of B&C. =0A=0AJ
an=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.
com=0A[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
=0ASent: maandag 24 december 2007 22:31=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubj
n Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0A=0A=0AOn Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger
erdoc@mindspring.com>=0A>=0A> Herb (the other Doc),=0A> Yes, please email t
hem to me. What did you do to regulate the =0A> output to the=0A> system?
=0A=0AIf you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It
=0Ais the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.=0A=0Ahttp:/
/www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf=0A=0A=0A--=0ABrian Lloyd
3191 Western Drive=0Abrian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, C
A 95682=0A+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)=0A=0AI f
ly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .=0A=97
Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry=0A=0APGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C=0APG
P key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C=0A=0A
==================
Message 15
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| Subject: | Fwd: New CJ Canopy Glass |
-----------------------------1198486368--
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System |
Hi TJ,
I'm away for the holidays so no schematics to hand ... however if memory serves
me right the TKE52PODR has three sets of contacts, only one of which turns the
generator warning light on/off.
Of the other two;
- one isolates the battery from the voltage (series) side of the differential relay
- and the other replaces that feed with the output of the DC generator
So if this relay is faulty in effect the "voltage" side of the differential relay
is now being referenced to the battery rather than the generator output and
also serves as an alternate current path for the load, either (or both) of which
might well be a factor in the low drop out level (20% rpm) etc.
So it may be worth a punt to pull that relay & see if it can be salvaged as it's
a relatively quick check that might just resolve your problem ... and I guess
if you're not able to get the bits for the alternator option until after the
holidays then you may as well give this a try in the meantime.
Hope this helps.
Rob Rowe
>
> Rob:
> My "Gen Out" light has been notoriously unreliable for the last year.
> It does not come on at any time, except maybe once in a while.
> I discovered if I "TAP" on relay TKE52PODR which is connected to terminal "C"
of the combined device the light comes on, but then won't work correctly for
long. Funky relay I think.
>
> That replacement "200" would never kick the gen offline and flat short the battery,
but I switched off the GEN switch instantly and nothing else popped. That
"200" is out of the airplane.
>
> My gen comes on normally at 36%, but does not turn off below 34%. It is more
like 20%. The GEN OUT light may or may not come on.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154249#154249
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator vs. Generator |
Everything Brian says is absolutely correct in my experience as well. As I
said, we concur on most everything.... which means either we came from the
same backgrounds with the same experiences, or... we might actually know w
hat we're talking about ..... for me, that is true every once in awhile. W
ith Brian, ... let's just say I would be very wary to engage in any argumen
t with him over technical matters! =0A =0AThe reason my comments surprised
him was simply because I was not clear and to the point. An alternator sy
stem is clearly the way to go. Otherwise you'd still be seeing generators
on modern automobiles. Alternators are more simple and have much higher re
liability. Period. They are lighter and easier to troubleshoot. If your
generator goes bad in your YAK it makes perfect sense to replace it with an
alternator system. =0A =0AThere is just one very minor point. Right now
... with very few exceptions,..... parts abound for the Yak generator syste
ms. The carbon pile regulators fail once every blue moon. I have 4 spares
. The generator quits every once in awhile too. I have two spares. The o
ver-voltage unit has never failed to my knowledge. I have two spares. The
Combined Device Relay is indeed a problem. It uses one device (the revers
e current relay) that is rather unique. The rest of the relays inside of i
t are replaceable with American made parts. I have one spare. I've spent
about $250 for all the above spares. With those parts I believe I can keep
my 50 going for quite a long time with the original system. A B&C 45 amp
Alternator with regulator goes for about a grand. If you ever make a mista
ke and manage to fry the alternator, it sells for a cool $750 or so all by
itself. =0A =0AThe alternator is better in every way except for one thing.
Price. In this one instance anyway. Could you gen up (pun intended) yo
ur own system for a much cheaper price? If you are very good... yes indeed
y. On the other hand, I went with what I consided the easy way. I bought
a bunch of spare parts. Right now, so can most anybody, and that alone was
my intended point on keeping the original system intact. =0A=0ABy tfhe wa
y, I called Tom and talked to him about his 50. From what he described, my
GUESS (and that is all that it is right now) is that his whole system is a
ctually intact and he may just have a bad battery. Or.... a resistive conn
ection somewhere. Further tests will tell. The reason he was having such
a hard time finding what was wrong with his generator system is likely bec
ause there was nothing wrong with his generator system. =0A=0AMark Bitterl
ich=0A=0A =0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=0A =0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom
: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: T
uesday, December 25, 2007 1:03:11 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Alternator vs. Ge
com>=0A=0AMark and I usually end up on the same side of an argument. I was
a =0Abit surprised at his comment but I think that we are probably still
=0Apretty much on the same side of this discussion too.=0A=0AFirst, let me
say that there is nothing wrong with a generator. They =0Ahave real advant
ages in some situations. Turbine engines often use a =0Agenerator because
you can also use it as a starter to spin up the gas- =0Agenerator section.
=0A=0AA generator can be made much more reliable by replacing the =0Aelect
romechanical (carbon pile or vibrator plus several relays) =0Aregulator w
ith a solid-state regulator. Zefftronics used to make them =0Afor aircraft
(PMA'd for spam cans) but I am having trouble finding =0Athem now. Jimco
makes them for older automobiles and tractors. See: =0Ahttp://www.jimcotes
t.com/ji-gvr01.htm. These would be satisfactory in =0Aan experimental airc
raft.=0A=0ABut generators are more complex than alternators and require an
=0Aadditional circuitry to prevent them from becoming electrical motors
=0Aand to prevent them from burning themselves up under heavy load. =0ASin
ce the generator uses a rotating mechanical switch (the =0Acommutator) to
convert the AC into DC, you have additional =0Amaintenance on brushes. The
arcing at the commutator emits radio =0Afrequency (RF) noise thus requiri
ng some sort of filter on the output =0Aof the generator to allow the radi
os to work properly. Also, the =0Afield of a generator must be "flashed" (
a high-current passed through =0Ait) to ensure it has some residual magnet
ism to "kick-start" the =0Agenerator when the engine begins to turn. This
is not an issue with =0Aan alternator. The control circuitry for an altern
ator is just much =0Asimpler. (Note: the wiring for a generator and an alt
ernator is =0Apretty much the same.)=0A=0ASo an alternator is just flat-ou
t a simpler device. Simple means =0Afewer things to go wrong and therefore
better reliability.=0A=0ANow to the $64 questions: should you replace your
generator with an =0Aalternator? Well, if the generator is working proper
ly I would say =0Ano. But when the generator fails I would seriously consi
der replacing =0Ait with an alternator and pulling about 30 lbs out of the
airplane in =0Athe form of generator, filter, regulator, and associated w
iring.=0A=0AYour milage (and opinion) may vary. ;-)=0A=0A--=0ABrian Lloyd
3191 Western Drive=0Abrian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT c
om Cameron Park, CA 95682=0A+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.91
2.0788 (fax)=0A=0AI fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of pet
ty things . . .=0A=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry=0A=0APGP key ID:
12095C52A32A1B6C=0APGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209
==================
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
It does not have a field winding. Instead it uses permanent magnets. Bria
n is correct.... such a device is usually called a dynamo. =0A=0AMark=0A
=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavi
a.be>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 2:40:
50 PM=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: B&C Alternator=0A=0A--> Yak-List message pos
ted by: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>=0A=0AIt's a small alternator
(producing AC current).=0A=0AJan=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFr
om: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd=0ASent: dinsdag 25 december 2007 18:24
=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator=0A=0A
Dec 25, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:=0A=0A> --> Yak-List message post
ed by: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>=0A>=0A> You'd need a voltage r
egulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a =0A> crowbar and an=0A> overvoltag
e module plus some fuses.=0A=0ASounds like you are using their smaller dyna
mo instead of their =0Aalternator. The LR3C-28 has the OV crowbar built-in
and doesn't need =0Athe capacitor.=0A=0A> The overvoltage module is a thy
ristor=0A> that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where yo
u =0A> need a 2=0A> amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C
website.=0A=0ARight. You short the field power to ground right now (to ensu
re that =0Athe alternator is well and truly off-line) and pop the breaker
to =0Aprovide a clear indication to the pilot. The indication of an =0Aov
ervoltage event is a low-voltage light and a popped field breaker.=0A=0ABT
W, did anyone ever install the overvoltage protection circuit I got =0ABob
Nuckolls of AeroElectric Connection to design for the Yak and CJ?=0A=0A> I
've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar, =0A> the O
VM-28=0A> thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10
amp=0A> alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means
=0A> that I=0A> never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I
don't =0A> need it, and=0A> the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, bu
t I left them in).=0A>=0A> By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK
WITHOUT THE =0A> BATTERY, it=0A> needs a voltage at its output to regulate
!!!=0A=0AThat is fairly normal for any sort of alternator system.=0A=0A> S
o I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original=0A> Ru
ssian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the=0A> Rus
sian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for =0A> more tha
n a=0A> year now, without any problems.=0A=0AYou are using the much smaller
and simpler dynamo system. B&C has a =0Afull alternator system available
and it does not have any such =0Alimitations.=0A=0A--=0ABrian Lloyd
3191 Western Drive=0Abrian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com
Cameron Park, CA 95682=0A+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.078
8 (fax)=0A=0AI fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty th
ings . . .=0A=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry=0A=0APGP key ID: 12095
C52A32A1B6C=0APGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52
========================
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
It's a language issue Jan... at least I think so?=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A----
- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>=0ATo: y
ak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 2:48:16 PM=0ASubje
Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>=0A=0ABrian, we might have a different defi
nition for the word dynamo here in=0AEurope. When referring to the dynamo w
e think of a device like the one=0Adeveloped by the Belgian engineer Zenobe
Gramme, producing DC current. I've=0Afound the word "generator" - used by
the Russians - always very confusing,=0Asince apparently it is used as wel
l for alternate as for direct current=0Adevices. =0A=0ABut the small 10 amp
device I have, produces alternate current. =0A=0AAll the best,=0A=0AJan=0A
=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
=0A[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd=0A
Sent: dinsdag 25 december 2007 18:24=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject
loyd <brian-1927@lloyd.com>=0A=0AOn Dec 25, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Jan Mevis wro
a.be>=0A>=0A> You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a
=0A> crowbar and an=0A> overvoltage module plus some fuses.=0A=0ASounds l
ike you are using their smaller dynamo instead of their =0Aalternator. The
LR3C-28 has the OV crowbar built-in and doesn't need =0Athe capacitor.=0A
=0A> The overvoltage module is a thyristor=0A> that makes a shortcut in cas
e of an overvoltage. That's where you =0A> need a 2=0A> amp circuit breake
r. You can find this all on the B&C website.=0A=0ARight. You short the fiel
d power to ground right now (to ensure that =0Athe alternator is well and
truly off-line) and pop the breaker to =0Aprovide a clear indication to th
e pilot. The indication of an =0Aovervoltage event is a low-voltage light
and a popped field breaker.=0A=0ABTW, did anyone ever install the overvolt
age protection circuit I got =0ABob Nuckolls of AeroElectric Connection to
design for the Yak and CJ?=0A=0A> I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO
05-2 (28 volts) crowbar, =0A> the OVM-28=0A> thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. I
n my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp=0A> alternator (I don't know if it
's still available). That also means =0A> that I=0A> never switch on the h
eavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't =0A> need it, and=0A> the Russi
an gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).=0A>=0A> By the way,
the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE =0A> BATTERY, it=0A> needs
a voltage at its output to regulate !!!=0A=0AThat is fairly normal for any
sort of alternator system.=0A=0A> So I do not state that the electronic sy
stem outperforms the original=0A> Russian system. At the contrary. But it i
s much less complex than the=0A> Russian system and as such much easier to
repair. I have it for =0A> more than a=0A> year now, without any problems.
=0A=0AYou are using the much smaller and simpler dynamo system. B&C has a
=0Afull alternator system available and it does not have any such =0Alimit
ations.=0A=0A--=0ABrian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive=0Ab
rian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682=0A+1.916.367.21
31 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)=0A=0AI fly because it releases
my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .=0A=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup
=E9ry=0A=0APGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C=0APGP key fingerprint: 3B1
D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
===========
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