Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:41 AM - Vertical roll (fougapilot)
2. 07:28 AM - Re: Vertical roll (Roger Baker)
3. 08:09 AM - Re: Vertical roll (Jan Mevis)
4. 11:59 AM - Re: Vertical roll (Brian Lloyd)
5. 12:57 PM - Re: Vertical roll (fougapilot)
6. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Roger Kemp M.D.)
7. 02:55 PM - Re: Vertical roll (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 03:14 PM - CJ-6 Night Flying (Kurt Howerton)
9. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Brian Lloyd)
11. 04:51 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Jay Land)
12. 05:01 PM - Re: Vertical roll (Brian Lloyd)
13. 05:03 PM - Re: CJ-6 Night Flying (Brian Lloyd)
14. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (David McGirt)
15. 06:20 PM - Re: Vertical roll (Herb Coussons)
16. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Roger Kemp M.D.)
17. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Roger Kemp M.D.)
18. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: Vertical roll (Scott Poehlmann)
19. 07:54 PM - Re: CJ-6 Night Flying (jon blake)
20. 08:24 PM - Re: CJ-6 Night Flying (bpx2horn@aol.com)
21. 09:52 PM - Re: CJ-6 Night Flying (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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Folks,
I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird Flyers" (the predecessor
to RedAlert) about someone doing a vertical roll with a CJ.
Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/techniques?
I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to fuel the already
heated who's better discussion, just looking for tips on how to fly MY airplane
better. [Laughing]
Thanks,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169218#169218
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Hi Dan,
I think that the CJ should do a very nice vertical roll. The
main thing you must do is to be sure the nose is straight down before
applying aileron.
Best regards,
Roger_____________________________________________
On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird
> Flyers" (the predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a
> vertical roll with a CJ.
>
> Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/
> techniques?
>
> I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to
> fuel the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for
> tips on how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169218#169218
>
>
Message 3
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Perhaps it might help to trim for 0 G
In that way,when you go vertical, it's easier to stay on the line.
Jan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Baker
> Sent: woensdag 12 maart 2008 15:34
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Vertical roll
>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> I think that the CJ should do a very nice vertical roll. The
> main thing you must do is to be sure the nose is straight down before
> applying aileron.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Roger_____________________________________________
> On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:
>
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird
> > Flyers" (the predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a
> > vertical roll with a CJ.
> >
> > Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/
> > techniques?
> >
> > I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to
> > fuel the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for
> > tips on how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169218#169218
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird Flyers" (the
> predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a vertical roll with a
> CJ.
>
> Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/
> techniques?
>
> I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to
> fuel the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for
> tips on how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]
How many degrees of roll do you want? I think you would be very hard
pressed to reach 360 degrees of roll on an up-line before running out
of airspeed. I have done partial rolls (90 degrees and occasionally
180 degrees) but one needs to maintain enough airspeed that the rudder
still works. With the CJ that is pretty tough.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also realistic
about one's airplane's limits.
I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4 turn
on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do the same
on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the process before
and could point the traps for me.
Thanks,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with any
aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at
the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the torsional
roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all! FWIW.
Viperdoc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fougapilot
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also
realistic about one's airplane's limits.
I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4
turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do
the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the
process before and could point the traps for me.
Thanks,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
Message 7
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I'm curious... And this is kind of off the subject line. I infer from what Brian
said that the rudder control on a CJ is not all that powerful. I do not know
this, I have never flown a CJ in my life, so I am not bad mouthing anything.
However, I am curious how many pilots here have worked with the elevator doing
humpty-bumps on the vertical line?
As far as vertical rolls go, the real trick of these is to... Well... To get VERTICAL
in the first place. Step two is to learn how to watch your wingtips and
learn how to use your rudder to KEEP the vertical line by comparing wingtip
placement compared to the horizon. A perfect vertical roll is something you kind
of feel in your butt when you get it really nailed. Sadly, doing rolls going
down is a totally different experience than doing them going up. A lot of
that has to do with where you end up focusing your eyes.
Brian mentions maintaining enough airspeed that the rudder still works in a CJ.
Being the nit-picker that I am, in a true hammerhead, you do not have enough
airspeed for the rudder to work at all, or the ailerons for that matter. What
gives the rudder control authority at all is the fact that the engine is creating
air flow past the rudder giving it enough control authority to commence
the hammerhead. A true hammerhead is a pivot on a point with very little forward
aircraft motion, and if done perfectly... About zero forward energy. If you
start a hammerhead too early with forward speed, you will ARC through the turn
and not pivot. Again, knowing nothing about a CJ, I differ to people who
have flown it to know what is necessary to do what. That said, in most aerobatic
aircraft that I have flown, I practice zero airspeed recoveries on the vertical
line. Anyone that decides to attempt a vertical roll is probably going
to sooner or later run out of airspeed while still in the vertical. Contrary
to some belief, airplanes don't really like to tail slide. If you get into the
vertical and realize you have run out of airspeed and ideas at about the same
time, there are many thoughts on how to recover, from letting go of everything,
to many other ways. My personal way is to try and force the hammerhead and
leave power on. However if you really are out of ideas and totally unsure of
what to do next, I would pull the power to idle and hold it there. Neutralize
everything and then just hang on for the ride. In many cases, it is just fun
to do that and see what happens anyway. It is a great confidence builder to
know that the airplane will recover itself even after you have run out of great
ideas. It is life preserving to be damn sure your aircraft is within CG limits
before doing this by the way.
On the same topic is a humpty-bump when you go up in a vertical line and use elevator
to more or less... Half loop it, right over the top, and then head straight
down again. The interesting thing here is the speed that you can do this,
which in many cases is much less than you might imagine. There is a trick.
You start this maneuver on a vertical up line, and then pull into a half loop
ending up going straight down, hold the line, then recover. On the second attempt,
hold the vertical line a little longer... Lose more airspeed, and continue
as before. Do it again, even LESS airspeed.
Sooner or later you will slow to the point that when you pull back on the stick,
you will feel it become loose in your hands... Which at this point you have
actually detached the air flow over the surface of the elevator. Quickly push
the stick forward again, and then pull it back again ... Once more you will get
some aircraft movement and then it will stop as the stick comes loose in your
hands. Do this, in what looks like a rapid push forward, a pull back, then
a rapid push forward again... In a very fast kind of pumping motion. What you
are doing is pulling back to airflow detachment, then pushing it forward to
re-attach air flow and then pulling back until it breaks flow again, and then
repeating. This can allow you to pull over the top of a vertical line and regain
a downward line at a much slower speed than you would have ever believed possible.
Sergei Boriak taught me this. It works.
I usually limit my input to electrical stuff. I am not a really great aerobatic
pilot... But I hang out with some really good ones! :-)
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 14:56
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Vertical roll
On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird Flyers" (the
> predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a vertical roll with a
> CJ.
>
> Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/
> techniques?
>
> I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to fuel
> the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for tips on
> how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]
How many degrees of roll do you want? I think you would be very hard pressed to
reach 360 degrees of roll on an up-line before running out of airspeed. I have
done partial rolls (90 degrees and occasionally 180 degrees) but one needs to
maintain enough airspeed that the rudder still works. With the CJ that is pretty
tough.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 8
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| Subject: | CJ-6 Night Flying |
Do any of you do much night flying in your CJ-6?
Mine has the stock nav/landing lights. I've read the FARs and I'm still
not clear if I'm legal in the stock configuration.
--
Kurt Howerton
N923YK
http://cj6.scitechsys.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Just for discussion sake Doc, you will never have that happen in the 50
on the up line if you just remember to pull all power to idle.. And I
mean REALLY all the way to idle and then just center everything and have
slight back pressure. Slight ... Back... Pressure. It might end up in
a spin, but never flat, and it has never gone inverted on me.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 17:46
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with
any aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy
while at the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if
the torsional roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like
that at all! FWIW.
Viperdoc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fougapilot
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is
also realistic about one's airplane's limits.
I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a
1/4 turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and
finally do the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone
through the process before and could point the traps for me.
Thanks,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
On Mar 12, 2008, at 12:54 PM, fougapilot wrote:
>
> Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one
> is also realistic about one's airplane's limits.
>
> I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding
> a 1/4 turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn
> and finally do the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had
> gone through the process before and could point the traps for me.
Spend some time doing hammerheads. (Well, you can't actually do a
hammerhead with the CJ6A but you know what I mean.) You are going to
learn where you run out of rudder. If you wait too long the airplane
will not pivot around the yaw axis. It will sort of cock off to the
side and then sit there. At that point you need to get the nose moving
toward the horizon using pitch as the elevator is still effective.
Once you are comfortable with knowing where that point is you can roll
the aircraft until you get there.
If you find yourself without airspeed and on a vertical up-line, I
find that it is easier to get the CJ to fall over on its back than to
go nose down.
I also discovered that if you wait too long you will discover how the
CJ does a tail-slide. I know I did. My recovery was to close the
throttle, neutralize the rudder, suck the stick back into my lap, and
wait for it to rotate nose-down around the pitch axis. It did a very
nice tail slide for a bit. No I don't recommend trying this at home.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
It would be almost impossible to make the CJ flat spin inverted without
serious skill- It's hard enough to make them spin at all.......
I don't think Alex has ever gotten a "full" roll on an up line- it would
certainly require exceeding redline before the pull.
You can see a 1/4 roll on the upline here- (plus 8 sided loop, roll on the
top of a loop, 1/2 cubans, hammers, etc....)
http://www.landaerosports.com/content/view/28/46/
Check out the CJ video.
Jay
> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:46:28 -0500
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
>
>
> Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with any
> aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at
> the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the torsional
> roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all! FWIW.
> Viperdoc
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fougapilot
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:54 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
>
>
> Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also
> realistic about one's airplane's limits.
>
> I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4
> turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do
> the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the
> process before and could point the traps for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
On Mar 12, 2008, at 2:52 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> I'm curious... And this is kind of off the subject line. I infer
> from what Brian said that the rudder control on a CJ is not all that
> powerful.
That is correct.
> Brian mentions maintaining enough airspeed that the rudder still
> works in a CJ. Being the nit-picker that I am, in a true
> hammerhead, you do not have enough airspeed for the rudder to work
> at all, or the ailerons for that matter.
> What gives the rudder control authority at all is the fact that the
> engine is creating air flow past the rudder giving it enough control
> authority to commence the hammerhead. A true hammerhead is a pivot
> on a point with very little forward aircraft motion, and if done
> perfectly... About zero forward energy. If you start a hammerhead
> too early with forward speed, you will ARC through the turn and not
> pivot.
Precisely. This is how a "hammerhead" must be flown in the CJ6A in
order to perform it. I start the turn at about 40 kts indicated
(actually I just feel the right point) and have to hold forward stick
and outside aileron to get the aircraft to turn around the inside
wingtip with any roll.
> Again, knowing nothing about a CJ, I differ to people who have flown
> it to know what is necessary to do what. That said, in most
> aerobatic aircraft that I have flown, I practice zero airspeed
> recoveries on the vertical line. Anyone that decides to attempt a
> vertical roll is probably going to sooner or later run out of
> airspeed while still in the vertical. Contrary to some belief,
> airplanes don't really like to tail slide.
And some, like the CJ6A, are not designed for the tail loads that can
come of it.
> If you get into the vertical and realize you have run out of
> airspeed and ideas at about the same time, there are many thoughts
> on how to recover, from letting go of everything, to many other
> ways. My personal way is to try and force the hammerhead and leave
> power on.
You can't force the hammerhead in the CJ. The only thing that is still
working is the elevator so you have to force the rotation in pitch.
Once you get the nose falling through, you can get the power off,
neutralize the controls, and recover once the nose is well below the
horizon and airspeed is starting to build again.
> However if you really are out of ideas and totally unsure of what to
> do next, I would pull the power to idle and hold it there.
That is what I recommend too.
> Neutralize everything and then just hang on for the ride.
Ah, we found a similar approach in this.
> In many cases, it is just fun to do that and see what happens anyway.
This is pretty safe with the CJ6A too. It is a very forgiving airframe.
> It is a great confidence builder to know that the airplane will
> recover itself even after you have run out of great ideas. It is
> life preserving to be damn sure your aircraft is within CG limits
> before doing this by the way.
>
> On the same topic is a humpty-bump when you go up in a vertical line
> and use elevator to more or less... Half loop it, right over the
> top, and then head straight down again. The interesting thing here
> is the speed that you can do this, which in many cases is much less
> than you might imagine. There is a trick. You start this maneuver
> on a vertical up line, and then pull into a half loop ending up
> going straight down, hold the line, then recover. On the second
> attempt, hold the vertical line a little longer... Lose more
> airspeed, and continue as before. Do it again, even LESS airspeed.
Ah, that is my last-ditch recovery from a botched hammerhead. And it
is fun to do. The CJ has elevator authority right to the very end so
you can always get it to go nose down that way. But if your line is
not perfectly vertical (alpha not zero), you will have to feel for
which way it wants to go. Sometimes it isn't obvious and you need to
reverse the pitch input.
> Sooner or later you will slow to the point that when you pull back
> on the stick, you will feel it become loose in your hands... Which
> at this point you have actually detached the air flow over the
> surface of the elevator. Quickly push the stick forward again, and
> then pull it back again ... Once more you will get some aircraft
> movement and then it will stop as the stick comes loose in your
> hands. Do this, in what looks like a rapid push forward, a pull
> back, then a rapid push forward again... In a very fast kind of
> pumping motion. What you are doing is pulling back to airflow
> detachment, then pushing it forward to re-attach air flow and then
> pulling back until it breaks flow again, and then repeating. This
> can allow you to pull over the top of a vertical line and regain a
> downward line at a much slower speed than you would have ever
> believed possible. Sergei Boriak taught me this. It works.
Ah, that is precisely what I mean when I say you have to feel for it.
> I usually limit my input to electrical stuff. I am not a really
> great aerobatic pilot... But I hang out with some really good
> ones! :-)
The reasons for doing this are twofold:
1. to learn where the limits to flight are;
2. to become unafraid of the airplane.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Night Flying |
On Mar 12, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Kurt Howerton wrote:
>
> Do any of you do much night flying in your CJ-6?
I used to.
>
>
> Mine has the stock nav/landing lights. I've read the FARs and I'm
> still
> not clear if I'm legal in the stock configuration.
The landing light is fine. You need to check the brightness of the
position lights and you need to add an anti-collision light. Strobes
are fine for this.
I spent a fair bit of time flying at night. I also spent a fair bit of
time flying instruments using the Chinese gyros.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Some more basic CJ-6 Acro...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=woyRFd0sIw4
On 3/12/08 7:49 PM, "Jay Land" <jland@popeandland.com> wrote:
>
> It would be almost impossible to make the CJ flat spin inverted without
> serious skill- It's hard enough to make them spin at all.......
>
> I don't think Alex has ever gotten a "full" roll on an up line- it would
> certainly require exceeding redline before the pull.
>
> You can see a 1/4 roll on the upline here- (plus 8 sided loop, roll on the
> top of a loop, 1/2 cubans, hammers, etc....)
>
> http://www.landaerosports.com/content/view/28/46/
>
> Check out the CJ video.
>
> Jay
>
>
>> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:46:28 -0500
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
>>
>>
>> Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with any
>> aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at
>> the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the torsional
>> roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all! FWIW.
>> Viperdoc
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fougapilot
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:54 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
>>
>>
>> Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also
>> realistic about one's airplane's limits.
>>
>> I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4
>> turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do
>> the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the
>> process before and could point the traps for me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Mark,
Excellent and exactly on !!
The key to the vertical roll is the perfect zero G line. Not positive
or negative. and wingtips even, as the plane slows more left rudder
is needed and as the plane enters the first 1/4 loop gyroscopic force
has to be countered. If the plane hits the perfect vertical line the
roll is as simple of an aileron roll as possible. Rolling to the
right is easier on the up and down line. The elevator controls load
and the rudder controls yaw. If these are on there is no adverse yaw
due to the roll.
You can cheat a little to nail the vertical line by pulling with the
right wing slightly low (right roll) now you correct on the way up
with the left rudder. At zero airspeed almost all of the left foot is
in and when you alternate and stand on the right rudder the pivot is
amazingly sharp and fast !!
The hint about the humpty below 50 knots is perfect - pumping the
elevator provides enough airflow to complete the rotation at the top
without a stall.
To stall inverted the plane must start over on its back, then push the
stick forward = inverted stall. If either foot is heavy on a rudder =
inverted spin. If the power is on and outspin aileron is entered =
inverted flat spin. So it takes some effort to put the Yak into an
inverted flat spin. And to recover, power off and neutralize the
controls - if you have enough altitude it will recover nose down.
It is my understanding that besides a CG forward of the center of
lift, minimal fuel load in the wings is critical. If either upright
or inverted spin is allowed to fully develop into autorotation and the
fuel load is such that inertia moves the mass of the plane outboard,
there may not be enough rudder to recover.
Fly Safe
Herb
On Mar 12, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> I'm curious... And this is kind of off the subject line. I infer
> from what Brian said that the rudder control on a CJ is not all that
> powerful. I do not know this, I have never flown a CJ in my life,
> so I am not bad mouthing anything. However, I am curious how many
> pilots here have worked with the elevator doing humpty-bumps on the
> vertical line?
>
> As far as vertical rolls go, the real trick of these is to...
> Well... To get VERTICAL in the first place. Step two is to learn
> how to watch your wingtips and learn how to use your rudder to KEEP
> the vertical line by comparing wingtip placement compared to the
> horizon. A perfect vertical roll is something you kind of feel in
> your butt when you get it really nailed. Sadly, doing rolls going
> down is a totally different experience than doing them going up. A
> lot of that has to do with where you end up focusing your eyes.
>
> Brian mentions maintaining enough airspeed that the rudder still
> works in a CJ. Being the nit-picker that I am, in a true
> hammerhead, you do not have enough airspeed for the rudder to work
> at all, or the ailerons for that matter. What gives the rudder
> control authority at all is the fact that the engine is creating air
> flow past the rudder giving it enough control authority to commence
> the hammerhead. A true hammerhead is a pivot on a point with very
> little forward aircraft motion, and if done perfectly... About zero
> forward energy. If you start a hammerhead too early with forward
> speed, you will ARC through the turn and not pivot. Again, knowing
> nothing about a CJ, I differ to people who have flown it to know
> what is necessary to do what. That said, in most aerobatic aircraft
> that I have flown, I practice zero airspeed recoveries on the
> vertical line. Anyone that decides to attempt a vertical roll is
> probably going to sooner or later run out of airspeed while still in
> the vertical. Contrary to some belief, airplanes don't really like
> to tail slide. If you get into the vertical and realize you have
> run out of airspeed and ideas at about the same time, there are many
> thoughts on how to recover, from letting go of everything, to many
> other ways. My personal way is to try and force the hammerhead and
> leave power on. However if you really are out of ideas and totally
> unsure of what to do next, I would pull the power to idle and hold
> it there. Neutralize everything and then just hang on for the
> ride. In many cases, it is just fun to do that and see what happens
> anyway. It is a great confidence builder to know that the airplane
> will recover itself even after you have run out of great ideas. It
> is life preserving to be damn sure your aircraft is within CG limits
> before doing this by the way.
>
> On the same topic is a humpty-bump when you go up in a vertical line
> and use elevator to more or less... Half loop it, right over the
> top, and then head straight down again. The interesting thing here
> is the speed that you can do this, which in many cases is much less
> than you might imagine. There is a trick. You start this maneuver
> on a vertical up line, and then pull into a half loop ending up
> going straight down, hold the line, then recover. On the second
> attempt, hold the vertical line a little longer... Lose more
> airspeed, and continue as before. Do it again, even LESS airspeed.
>
> Sooner or later you will slow to the point that when you pull back
> on the stick, you will feel it become loose in your hands... Which
> at this point you have actually detached the air flow over the
> surface of the elevator. Quickly push the stick forward again, and
> then pull it back again ... Once more you will get some aircraft
> movement and then it will stop as the stick comes loose in your
> hands. Do this, in what looks like a rapid push forward, a pull
> back, then a rapid push forward again... In a very fast kind of
> pumping motion. What you are doing is pulling back to airflow
> detachment, then pushing it forward to re-attach air flow and then
> pulling back until it breaks flow again, and then repeating. This
> can allow you to pull over the top of a vertical line and regain a
> downward line at a much slower speed than you would have ever
> believed possible. Sergei Boriak taught me this. It works.
>
> I usually limit my input to electrical stuff. I am not a really
> great aerobatic pilot... But I hang out with some really good
> ones! :-)
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 14:56
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Vertical roll
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:
>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird Flyers" (the
>> predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a vertical roll with a
>> CJ.
>>
>> Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/
>> techniques?
>>
>> I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to
>> fuel
>> the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for tips on
>> how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]
>
> How many degrees of roll do you want? I think you would be very hard
> pressed to reach 360 degrees of roll on an up-line before running
> out of airspeed. I have done partial rolls (90 degrees and
> occasionally 180 degrees) but one needs to maintain enough airspeed
> that the rudder still works. With the CJ that is pretty tough.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty
> things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A
> 1B6C
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Will try it.
Thanks,
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Just for discussion sake Doc, you will never have that happen in the 50
on the up line if you just remember to pull all power to idle.. And I
mean REALLY all the way to idle and then just center everything and have
slight back pressure. Slight ... Back... Pressure. It might end up in
a spin, but never flat, and it has never gone inverted on me.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 17:46
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with
any aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy
while at the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if
the torsional roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like
that at all! FWIW.
Viperdoc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fougapilot
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is
also realistic about one's airplane's limits.
I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a
1/4 turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and
finally do the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone
through the process before and could point the traps for me.
Thanks,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
Gabby is truly an amazingly talented young man.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
Some more basic CJ-6 Acro...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=woyRFd0sIw4
On 3/12/08 7:49 PM, "Jay Land" <jland@popeandland.com> wrote:
>
> It would be almost impossible to make the CJ flat spin inverted without
> serious skill- It's hard enough to make them spin at all.......
>
> I don't think Alex has ever gotten a "full" roll on an up line- it would
> certainly require exceeding redline before the pull.
>
> You can see a 1/4 roll on the upline here- (plus 8 sided loop, roll on the
> top of a loop, 1/2 cubans, hammers, etc....)
>
> http://www.landaerosports.com/content/view/28/46/
>
> Check out the CJ video.
>
> Jay
>
>
>> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:46:28 -0500
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
>>
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with
any
>> aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at
>> the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the
torsional
>> roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all!
FWIW.
>> Viperdoc
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fougapilot
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:54 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Vertical roll
>>
>>
>> Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is
also
>> realistic about one's airplane's limits.
>>
>> I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a
1/4
>> turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally
do
>> the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the
>> process before and could point the traps for me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical roll |
The only real trick to a vertical roll (up or down) is BE VERTICAL. Not
close. VERTICAL. Learn this by having someone on the ground watch you,
and believe what they tell you even if it looks wrong from the cockpit.
Oh, and don't play with the rudders--if you started vertical, rudders
will barrel the roll while most errors in plane of rotation can (and
should) be fixed with the elevator. Adding rudder to a line that isn't
vertical will only result in what is essentially a vertical slip and
rolling in that condition doesn't produce pretty rolls or long lines.
I agree that the best way to start vertical rolls is as a 1/4 roll on a
vertical downline (e.g., after a hammer). In this case you are very
likely to be vertical AND you can use a simple technique to keep the
roll from being barreled: look straight ahead at the ground. Pick a
point straight out in front of your eyes on the ground and roll around
that point. When you've got the 1/4 down, move to 1/2 and then 3/4 and
full rolls (or points for that matter). Once those are in hand, then
start with the roll on the vertical up. It sounds weird, but some people
find it easier to look straight ahead (i.e., up) and roll there too, and
judge the amount of roll by timing.
It goes without saying that all this should be done at altitude, with a
chute, ideally with an experience instructor, and ONLY after you are
fully comfortable with upright and inverted spins of the normal,
accelerated and flattened varieties. Botched vertical rolls sometimes
end up as tumbles, so be prepared for Mr. Toad's wild ride...
That's it. No magic.
Hope this helps,
Scott
Yak 55M N155YK
fougapilot wrote:
>
> Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also
realistic about one's airplane's limits.
>
> I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4 turn
on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do the same
on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the process before
and could point the traps for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | CJ-6 Night Flying |
Here I go sounding like a know-it-all. I've logged over 2500 hours
night and over 1000 of night vision goggle time (to include time in
Indiancountry) time -read bad-guys-shooting-at-you. (just name the 3rd
world shit hole country) I've flown my CJ at night, but only as
familiarization or as a night recovery necessity. Our CJ's are not
equipped for US Standard night or NVG flight. They are normally
equipped for what I will call, night recovery operations or BASIC night
flight. I don't believe our airplanes are equipped for everyday night
flying - plus, why would you want to... I know many will disagree, but
until you've flown off a barge or carrier in the Gulf at night,
multi-ship, at 30 feet (bad weather), please just accept this opinion.
If you want to fly your CJ at night on a regular basis, find someone
(not your basic CFI) who has done it and follow their program of
instruction. Night flying is different. READ period. Hate to sound
like an A$$ hole know-it-all, but your normal private ticket doesn't
qualify us for flying a foreign war bird at, at night.
In the end, ask your insurance company or AOPA if they disagree. Why
would you want to fly these beautiful airplanes at night unless you are
a member of the Aerostar demo team with a light lighting your smoke
trail...!
Respectfully,
Jon Blake
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Night Flying
On Mar 12, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Kurt Howerton wrote:
>
> Do any of you do much night flying in your CJ-6?
I used to.
>
>
> Mine has the stock nav/landing lights. I've read the FARs and I'm
> still
> not clear if I'm legal in the stock configuration.
The landing light is fine. You need to check the brightness of the
position lights and you need to add an anti-collision light. Strobes
are fine for this.
I spent a fair bit of time flying at night. I also spent a fair bit of
time flying instruments using the Chinese gyros.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Night Flying |
Thanks Jon for the plug. We will be at Sun-n Fun, Oshkosh, and 17 other show
s this year including the Dominican Republic. We also prefer not to fly at n
ight if possible x-cross country, but have done it when unforcasted winds or
other issues have forced us. We have EFIS and GPS and full legal night cert
ified AC. That being said we still prefer to=C2-do all our night single en
gine flight directly over the airport that we are performing our show=C2-a
t. Since I fly for a major over night delivery company with twin GE CF60-50c
2's I feel comfortable doing that but when behind the M14 I just prefer doin
g it then during daylight hours. This is said after just completing a 1900 n
m trip one way with our three planes to the Dom Rep and back for there 60th
anniversary Airforce celebration. About 700 nm over water during the day and
an unplanned layover in Proventiales because we didn't want to cross the Do
minican mountains at night.
Hope to se you guys on the circuit,
Paul Hornick
-----Original Message-----
From: jon blake <jblake207@COMCAST.NET>
Sent: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 9:52 pm
Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ-6 Night Flying
Here I go sounding like a know-it-all. I've logged over 2500 hours
ight and over 1000 of night vision goggle time (to include time in
ndiancountry) time -read bad-guys-shooting-at-you. (just name the 3rd
orld shit hole country) I've flown my CJ at night, but only as
amiliarization or as a night recovery necessity. Our CJ's are not
quipped for US Standard night or NVG flight. They are normally
quipped for what I will call, night recovery operations or BASIC night
light. I don't believe our airplanes are equipped for everyday night
lying - plus, why would you want to... I know many will disagree, but
ntil you've flown off a barge or carrier in the Gulf at night,
ulti-ship, at 30 feet (bad weather), please just accept this opinion.
f you want to fly your CJ at night on a regular basis, find someone
not your basic CFI) who has done it and follow their program of
nstruction. Night flying is different. READ period. Hate to sound
ike an A$$ hole know-it-all, but your normal private ticket doesn't
ualify us for flying a foreign war bird at, at night.
In the end, ask your insurance company or AOPA if they disagree. Why
ould you want to fly these beautiful airplanes at night unless you are
member of the Aerostar demo team with a light lighting your smoke
rail...!
Respectfully,
on Blake
-----Original Message-----
rom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
ent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:01 PM
o: yak-list@matronics.com
ubject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Night Flying
n Mar 12, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Kurt Howerton wrote:
Do any of you do much night flying in your CJ-6?
I used to.
>
Mine has the stock nav/landing lights. I've read the FARs and I'm
still
not clear if I'm legal in the stock configuration.
The landing light is fine. You need to check the brightness of the
osition lights and you need to add an anti-collision light. Strobes
re fine for this.
I spent a fair bit of time flying at night. I also spent a fair bit of
ime flying instruments using the Chinese gyros.
--
rian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
rian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exup=C3=A9ry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
GP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Night Flying |
On Mar 12, 2008, at 8:20 PM, bpx2horn@aol.com wrote:
> This is said after just completing a 1900 nm trip one way with our
> three planes to the Dom Rep and back for there 60th anniversary
> Airforce celebration. About 700 nm over water during the day and an
> unplanned layover in Proventiales because we didn't want to cross
> the Dominican mountains at night.
I have made that trip many times. I can understand your logic
completely. They get some great thunderbumpers over those at night.
Much easier to see-and-avoid durning the day when using the mk-I
eyeball for weather avoidance.
I did catch one of those small Caribbean CBs one night when on my way
home to St. Thomas. Not fun.
Day/night, IFR/VFR, single-/multi-engine: it is all a matter of risk
assessment. What are you comfortable with?
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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