Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:11 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang (skidmk)
2. 05:34 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change (Mark Davis)
3. 06:13 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 06:58 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change (cjpilot710@aol.com)
5. 07:31 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang (tjyak50)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for NanchangGliding range specs for Nanchang (V. Walker)
7. 10:27 AM - Coins (dabear)
8. 10:34 AM - Glide speed and carrier approaches (Barry Hancock)
9. 10:53 AM - Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches (Kurt Howerton)
10. 10:58 AM - Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches (skidmk)
11. 11:24 AM - Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches (Mark Davis)
12. 11:27 AM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang (Brian Lloyd)
13. 01:22 PM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change (Peter K. Van Staagen)
14. 02:03 PM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang (dabear)
15. 02:29 PM - Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches (Budd Davisson)
16. 04:17 PM - Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches (Mark Davis)
17. 07:20 PM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change (Craig Winkelmann, CFI)
18. 07:22 PM - Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang (Craig Winkelmann, CFI)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang |
Wow,, thanks I figured it was a rock by the circuit practices I've been doing.
I've extrapolated some numbers from the chinese "pilot manual", it appears she
drops 590feet (converted from meters) for every 1.33 miles forward ,,, thats at
80kts of airspeed. of course, it doesn't say wind, weight or any of the other
variables.
your mileage may vary
:P
--------
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180215#180215
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change |
Flying in Western Kansas and Southeast Colorado, the whole world is pretty
much an emergency landing field. Lots of straight roads and level flat
fields with a handfull of power lines thrown in. Never the less, in the
pattern, I''m never more than 1/2 the distance to the wingtip from the
runway and turn roughly 5 seconds past the intended point of landing less
the wind (which is always blowing). If someone else is in the pattern on an
overly extended pattern, I just tell them I'll be inside them and well out
of their way. I've never owned an airplane that had a tendency to actually
glide when the power was pulled, like T-Craft, etc. In my Navy days, a T-28
glided about like a YAK. The rest, in the event of an engine failure(s),
were simply returned to the taxpayers with a simple pull of a handle between
your legs.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> I have no idea what the glide ratio is for the CJ or YAKS... I'd guess
> my 50 has one of about 10/1... But that is a pure guess. What I am
> curious about as well is how most YAK/CJ folk fly their aircraft in the
> pattern. Now-a-days it seems to me that I see a lot of folks in light
> civils flying what is commonly known as the "Cross Country Downwind". I
> mean when you stand there at the airport, it is hard to believe they are
> still in the Class D airspace at New Bern! Little dots on the horizon
> kind of thing.
>
> On the flip side, I was taught as a youth to always be within gliding
> range of the runway. My instructor said to me: "Boy, it would be pretty
> damn embarrassing to crash an airplane at an airport anywhere else than
> on the runway". Somehow that made sense to me in a weird kind of way.
>
> As a Commercial Pilot, my instructor made me practice power off at the
> 180 approaches. I.E., At the point just opposite to the approach end to
> the runway on the downwind, the engine was pulled to idle, and you had
> to land at a point not more than 200 feet past a set point and NEVER
> before. Slips/Flaps/Gear/Turns to final....all at your choice, but NO
> MOTOR.
>
> In the military of course, we flew a constant turn to touchdown at a
> very specific AOA, ... AKA "The Carrier Approach". I never really knew
> how or WHY this came about until I flew a YAK-50. Suddenly the reason
> for that became perfectly clear. I fly my 50 so close to the runway on
> downwind that when I go over the tower, they can't see me anymore!
> Worries the poor SOB's no end, much to my glee!
>
> So I am curious to see the consensus. How many people stick in close
> and high versus wide and at perfect pattern altitude? And what are your
> thoughts on both...... Which in a way makes sense as being related to
> glide ratios?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 22:40
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang
>
> I don't remember ever seeing tables on the CJ's gliding distance. You
> could most likely theoretically work it with known figures like gross
> weight, airfoil data, and wing area. A bit out of my league. However
> in playing with my CJ, I found that if I pick a spot on the ground 1/3
> the distance in from the wing tip - I can make that spot in a clean
> glide, with a wind-milling engine. That's for just about any altitude
> too. NOTE: I have an M-14p with a paddle prop. I suspect the Chinese
> metal prop would give you a somewhat better glide.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings
> at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change |
Extracted from the Yak 52 manual.
Lift to drag ratio of Yak-52 airplane is K=7 with retracted landing gear and
K=5.5 with extended. So the descent distance could be calculated as: L = K
H. Where H is airplane's altitude. Recommended descending speed to obtain
maximum descent distance is 160 kmph without wind, 150 kmph with 5 m/s
downwind and 170 kmph with 5 m/s headwind.
Headwind 5 m/s decreases descent distance by about 10%.
The most favourable turns are performed at 45 degree bank at 170 kmph air
speed, the altitude loss is about 110 m within 12.. 15 seconds for such 180
degree turn.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:56 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change
>
> I prefer close and high, and always "carrier approach", slipping of what
> is
> too much. Unfortunately there are quite some airfields in Europe where
> you're supposed (urged) to fly a circuit like a big Boeing or Airbus and
> preferably with a three degree approach on final. So I try to avoid the
> bigger airfields as much as possible.
>
> Jan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark
> G
> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: woensdag 30 april 2008 5:07
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change
>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> I have no idea what the glide ratio is for the CJ or YAKS... I'd guess
> my 50 has one of about 10/1... But that is a pure guess. What I am
> curious about as well is how most YAK/CJ folk fly their aircraft in the
> pattern. Now-a-days it seems to me that I see a lot of folks in light
> civils flying what is commonly known as the "Cross Country Downwind". I
> mean when you stand there at the airport, it is hard to believe they are
> still in the Class D airspace at New Bern! Little dots on the horizon
> kind of thing.
>
> On the flip side, I was taught as a youth to always be within gliding
> range of the runway. My instructor said to me: "Boy, it would be pretty
> damn embarrassing to crash an airplane at an airport anywhere else than
> on the runway". Somehow that made sense to me in a weird kind of way.
>
> As a Commercial Pilot, my instructor made me practice power off at the
> 180 approaches. I.E., At the point just opposite to the approach end to
> the runway on the downwind, the engine was pulled to idle, and you had
> to land at a point not more than 200 feet past a set point and NEVER
> before. Slips/Flaps/Gear/Turns to final....all at your choice, but NO
> MOTOR.
>
> In the military of course, we flew a constant turn to touchdown at a
> very specific AOA, ... AKA "The Carrier Approach". I never really knew
> how or WHY this came about until I flew a YAK-50. Suddenly the reason
> for that became perfectly clear. I fly my 50 so close to the runway on
> downwind that when I go over the tower, they can't see me anymore!
> Worries the poor SOB's no end, much to my glee!
>
> So I am curious to see the consensus. How many people stick in close
> and high versus wide and at perfect pattern altitude? And what are your
> thoughts on both...... Which in a way makes sense as being related to
> glide ratios?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 22:40
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang
>
> I don't remember ever seeing tables on the CJ's gliding distance. You
> could most likely theoretically work it with known figures like gross
> weight, airfoil data, and wing area. A bit out of my league. However
> in playing with my CJ, I found that if I pick a spot on the ground 1/3
> the distance in from the wing tip - I can make that spot in a clean
> glide, with a wind-milling engine. That's for just about any altitude
> too. NOTE: I have an M-14p with a paddle prop. I suspect the Chinese
> metal prop would give you a somewhat better glide.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings
> at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change |
The basic parameter I use that seem to work is at 1000 agl, I can make a 180
turn to a point that is 1/3 the distance in from the wing tip. That does
not hold true for lower than 1000 of course. The distance part is still good.
I have a rather neat situation here at Eagles Nest. After TO if I can get
to 200-300 agl a 45 deg turn to the right will get me to a pasture long enough
for a landing. 900 to 1000 and 35 degree right turn will actually put me on
another runway at another airpark. (Yeah we have private fields up the
Ying-Yang here). Now that is for a south takeoff. The area around my field to
north is woods and a rather large lake. I need 200 feet to clear the woods,
so its a water ditching after that. (The lake is totally isolated and chuck
full of bass, snakes, and gators)
The point is that you should be familiar the area around your airport and
not only plan for the engine failure in the pattern but the takeoff too.
I live under a MOA. That has a lot of advantages!
One. 3 or 4 times a month, after dark, we get the low level night training
gun ships and Blackhawks. They are always about 200'. Our airfield must be
a check point cause they'll cross dead center of the runway. (We had one
land here when his chip light came on). Also we seen every kind warbird over
our field when they use the ranges to south and north. Even B-1Bs!
Two. Humphy Dittle has their school over at DAB and they fill the skies and
surrounding fields BUT THEY DON'T EVER COME INTO THE MOA.
God I love this place.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang |
Experiment with the prop control on your next engine out landing practice.
If the engine is windmilling, you most likely have oil pressure and will be up
against the low-pitch stops (highest drag).
Pull the prop control all the way back and feel the airplane surge forward as the
blades go to the high pitch stops (towards feather). You can also push it
back to the higher drag setting if needed.
If your engine is dead stopped it has probably already sprung itself to this coarse
setting against the high pitch stops (low drag).
One client who dead sticked a Nanchang used this trick right at the end of his
glide to "jump" a little berm.
Tj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180246#180246
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for NanchangGliding range specs for |
Nanchang
Like Pappy, my Nanchang has an M-14P. As an old commercial rotorcraft
pilot (working for the L.A. police), I found myself constantly looking
for "where will I land WHEN the engine quits" spots. In the old piston
helicopters it really was a matter of when and not if. This carried
forward many years into my second career as an airline pilot. In my
short experience with the Chang, I'll just add my two cents worth about
the "1/3rd distance from the wingtip, don't crash anywhere but on the
runway, and 1/1 glide ratio. Those are the stats that work for me too.
The first time I flew the CJ6 I was "impressed" with her ability to
come down fast. The only other aircraft I can liken it to for a steep
glide ratio would be the old 727. That worked well in places like Butte
Montana. My point being, if you don't already do this, think like a
chopper pilot and always include someplace you could toss a brick to in
your subconscious scan while airborn. An old friend of mine, Barry
Schiff, wrote an excellent article for Plane&Pilot magazine years ago
about finding your perfect entry altitude for a 180 emergency turn to
landing. Basically, go to a safe altitude, throttle back to idle and
simulate a 180 degree turn to an imaginary airport at your best rate of
descent speed. The altitude difference should show you roughly what to
expect.
Val
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Pappy,
Please call me regarding the coins.
DaBear
540.349.2313
Message 8
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| Subject: | Glide speed and carrier approaches |
Gang,
I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others
like mechanics and numbers. I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be
accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a
windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various
altitudes and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots). I seem to remember Brian
Lloyd doing an extensive test on this some time back and posting it.
Should be able to do an archive search....
As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak,
L-39, Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the
end of a boring cross country flight. That being said it is much
more to manage in a shorter amount of time. We fly pretty forgiving
airplanes, but if your too tight to the runway that will require
getting closer to the stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the
constant turn to final. As mentioned, too far away has other
problems. The critical things are airspeed and bank angle. Just
remember your stall speed increases with your bank angle. If
you're new to the overhead approach, take it slow....start your
breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure end of the runway
and then progressively move them towards the approach end as you get
more comfortable and habit patterns develop.
My two cents.
Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at
ARS. ;) It will be on Friday evening. All Red Star VII is May
14-18. If you have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org
to register now.
Cheers,
Barry
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
Speaking of ARS - any news on Rental Cars and maybe a schedule of events?
--
Kurt Howerton
N923YK
http://cj6.scitechsys.com
Barry Hancock wrote:
> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
> Gang,
>
> I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others like
> mechanics and numbers. I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be
> accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a
> windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various altitudes
> and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots). I seem to remember Brian Lloyd doing
> an extensive test on this some time back and posting it. Should be able
> to do an archive search....
>
> As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak, L-39,
> Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the end of a
> boring cross country flight. That being said it is much more to manage
> in a shorter amount of time. We fly pretty forgiving airplanes, but if
> your too tight to the runway that will require getting closer to the
> stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the constant turn to final. As
> mentioned, too far away has other problems. The critical things are
> airspeed and bank angle. Just remember your stall speed increases with
> your bank angle. If you're new to the overhead approach, take it
> slow....start your breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure
> end of the runway and then progressively move them towards the approach
> end as you get more comfortable and habit patterns develop.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at ARS.
> ;) It will be on Friday evening. All Red Star VII is May 14-18. If
> you have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org to register now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
thanks for all the tips.....
and Barry how about dem rudder mods'
[Wink]
--------
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180313#180313
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
The purpose of the carrier landing pattern is to recover a group of
airplanes as quickly as possible while a carrier is turned into the wind
with a consistent minimum interval. Most airwings use a 45 second interval
during the daytime. It gives enough time to get an airplane out of the
wires and across the foul line in time for a clear deck for the following
aircraft. Night time only increases to 60 seconds. Too close of
intervals result in foul deck waveoffs. Too many foul deck waveoffs and the
Captain and Admiral get pissed. Our airwing logged the landing intervals on
every daytime recovery to identify those that couldn't stay within +/- 5
seconds of the 45 second target. All aircraft must maintain a uniform
pattern to maintain a constant interval. That's the part we need to work
on. Everyone in a formation flight needs to be flying a similar pattern to
avoid dangerously close intervals for successive landing airplanes. The
landing pattern needs to be briefed AND DEBRIEFED on every formation flight.
Tight or loose doesn't matter as much as uniformity and the wingmen should
be following the lead's distance abeam out of the break.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:26 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Glide speed and carrier approaches
> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
> Gang,
>
> I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others like
> mechanics and numbers. I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be
> accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a
> windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various altitudes
> and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots). I seem to remember Brian Lloyd doing an
> extensive test on this some time back and posting it. Should be able to
> do an archive search....
>
> As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak, L-39,
> Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the end of a
> boring cross country flight. That being said it is much more to manage
> in a shorter amount of time. We fly pretty forgiving airplanes, but if
> your too tight to the runway that will require getting closer to the
> stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the constant turn to final. As
> mentioned, too far away has other problems. The critical things are
> airspeed and bank angle. Just remember your stall speed increases with
> your bank angle. If you're new to the overhead approach, take it
> slow....start your breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure end
> of the runway and then progressively move them towards the approach end
> as you get more comfortable and habit patterns develop.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at ARS.
> ;) It will be on Friday evening. All Red Star VII is May 14-18. If you
> have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org to register now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Barry
>
>
> --
> Date: 4/30/2008 11:35 AM
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang |
It is quite interesting the lack of useful information to the
gentleman's original question. (Yes, there were a few useful answers,
Dennis' sticking in my mind but that was for the Yak-52.)
I don't know how other instructors provide transition training in the
Yak or CJ but I believe you should have covered this when you got your
transition training in the aircraft. I specifically address the issue
by having a segment of training on engine-out performance. It includes
putting the aircraft into several different configurations (all with
throttle at idle), specifically:
1. gear up, flaps up, max RPM;
2. gear up, flaps up, low RPM;
3. gear down, flaps up, max RPM;
4. gear up, flaps down, max RPM;
5. gear down, flaps down, max RPM;
6. gear down, flaps up, low RPM.
We get the aircraft into a steady-state glide and measure rate-of-
descent. This allows the student to get a feel for the drag producers
in the aircraft. After that we make power off landings from the
downwind. Later on we calculate glide ratio (when back on the ground).
Power off landings are pretty docile in the CJ with the stock engine
(they are done flaps-up BTW) but can get pretty exciting in the Yak-52
with 400hp engine and MT 3-bladed prop. Expect to fly a *very* close
in pattern with something approaching a 45 degree bank-angle in the
continuous-turn from downwind to final.
So getting back to the original question, you need to specify
airframe, engine, prop, and configuration before anyone can give you a
hard-and-fast answer to your question. My recommendation is that you
go out and practice power-off landings yourself in order to become
comfortable with the event. No amount of talk here on this list will
prepare you.
If you are on the west coast I will be happy to provide instruction
and act as safety pilot while you learn the techniques. If you are
somewhere else I strongly urge you to find someone experienced with
this flight regime to help you practice.
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 13
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| Subject: | Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change |
I like to be able to spit on the runway from downwind!
Squatch
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I have no idea what the glide ratio is for the CJ or YAKS... I'd guess
my 50 has one of about 10/1... But that is a pure guess. What I am
curious about as well is how most YAK/CJ folk fly their aircraft in the
pattern. Now-a-days it seems to me that I see a lot of folks in light
civils flying what is commonly known as the "Cross Country Downwind". I
mean when you stand there at the airport, it is hard to believe they are
still in the Class D airspace at New Bern! Little dots on the horizon
kind of thing.
On the flip side, I was taught as a youth to always be within gliding
range of the runway. My instructor said to me: "Boy, it would be pretty
damn embarrassing to crash an airplane at an airport anywhere else than
on the runway". Somehow that made sense to me in a weird kind of way.
As a Commercial Pilot, my instructor made me practice power off at the
180 approaches. I.E., At the point just opposite to the approach end to
the runway on the downwind, the engine was pulled to idle, and you had
to land at a point not more than 200 feet past a set point and NEVER
before. Slips/Flaps/Gear/Turns to final....all at your choice, but NO
MOTOR.
In the military of course, we flew a constant turn to touchdown at a
very specific AOA, ... AKA "The Carrier Approach". I never really knew
how or WHY this came about until I flew a YAK-50. Suddenly the reason
for that became perfectly clear. I fly my 50 so close to the runway on
downwind that when I go over the tower, they can't see me anymore!
Worries the poor SOB's no end, much to my glee!
So I am curious to see the consensus. How many people stick in close
and high versus wide and at perfect pattern altitude? And what are your
thoughts on both...... Which in a way makes sense as being related to
glide ratios?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 22:40
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gliding range specs for Nanchang
I don't remember ever seeing tables on the CJ's gliding distance. You
could most likely theoretically work it with known figures like gross
weight, airfoil data, and wing area. A bit out of my league. However
in playing with my CJ, I found that if I pick a spot on the ground 1/3
the distance in from the wing tip - I can make that spot in a clean
glide, with a wind-milling engine. That's for just about any altitude
too. NOTE: I have an M-14p with a paddle prop. I suspect the Chinese
metal prop would give you a somewhat better glide.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings
at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang |
[much good info deleted]
>
> Power off landings are pretty docile in the CJ with the stock engine
> (they are done flaps-up BTW) but can get pretty exciting in the Yak-52
> with 400hp engine and MT 3-bladed prop. Expect to fly a *very* close in
> pattern with something approaching a 45 degree bank-angle in the
> continuous-turn from downwind to final.
The CJ with the M14P and MT prop gets pretty exciting with power off. It
should be practiced at altitude first and particular attention should be
paid to how it flys at lower airspeed. The combination is wonderful when
there is power. Once power is off, don't get slow. The sink rate is
impressive.
Dabear
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
A note on 180 degree "carrier type" approaches in a civilian context.
Although I'm flying neither a Yak nor a CJ, I make 15-25 approaches a day
instructing landings in my Pitts,in which many folks also fly 180 degree
approaches. I did too until I watched a friend, a former Scooter jockey
flying his Pitts, roll off the perch and miss seeing a C-150 on a long, low
straight in. He managed to time it so that he never saw the 150 through the
entire approach and actually touched down about 200 feet directly behind
him. He roared right up behind it until the wings popped into view around
the nose and he careened off the runway to avoid it.
The Navy can fly those kinds of approaches because everyone in their context
is flying the same kind of pattern in the same place. Plus, they are all
professionals. On a civilian field, where at least half the people in the
pattern are severely wanting in commonsense and flying ability, you never
know where they are going to be. And, once you're committed to the turn, you
don't have another chance to check final for traffic. Plus, your nose is
following traffic. I personally know two people who have landed on other
airplanes flying that approach (no physical injuries in either) and, if I
know two, there must be dozens of others.
I now put a short base leg in the approach (I call it a "belly check") to
give me one more peak. It also eliminates the problem of an over-shooting
cross wind pushing a pilot into centerline and having to tighten up the turn
at the bottom, right when you really don't want that much bank.
No one asked, but that's my two cents and it's worth what you paid.
Budd Davisson
On 4/30/08 11:21 AM, "Mark Davis" <mark@pld.com> wrote:
>
> The purpose of the carrier landing pattern is to recover a group of
> airplanes as quickly as possible while a carrier is turned into the wind
> with a consistent minimum interval. Most airwings use a 45 second interval
> during the daytime. It gives enough time to get an airplane out of the
> wires and across the foul line in time for a clear deck for the following
> aircraft. Night time only increases to 60 seconds. Too close of
> intervals result in foul deck waveoffs. Too many foul deck waveoffs and the
> Captain and Admiral get pissed. Our airwing logged the landing intervals on
> every daytime recovery to identify those that couldn't stay within +/- 5
> seconds of the 45 second target. All aircraft must maintain a uniform
> pattern to maintain a constant interval. That's the part we need to work
> on. Everyone in a formation flight needs to be flying a similar pattern to
> avoid dangerously close intervals for successive landing airplanes. The
> landing pattern needs to be briefed AND DEBRIEFED on every formation flight.
> Tight or loose doesn't matter as much as uniformity and the wingmen should
> be following the lead's distance abeam out of the break.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Hancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:26 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Glide speed and carrier approaches
>
>
>> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>>
>> Gang,
>>
>> I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others like
>> mechanics and numbers. I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be
>> accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a
>> windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various altitudes
>> and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots). I seem to remember Brian Lloyd doing an
>> extensive test on this some time back and posting it. Should be able to
>> do an archive search....
>>
>> As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak, L-39,
>> Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the end of a
>> boring cross country flight. That being said it is much more to manage
>> in a shorter amount of time. We fly pretty forgiving airplanes, but if
>> your too tight to the runway that will require getting closer to the
>> stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the constant turn to final. As
>> mentioned, too far away has other problems. The critical things are
>> airspeed and bank angle. Just remember your stall speed increases with
>> your bank angle. If you're new to the overhead approach, take it
>> slow....start your breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure end
>> of the runway and then progressively move them towards the approach end
>> as you get more comfortable and habit patterns develop.
>>
>> My two cents.
>>
>> Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at ARS.
>> ;) It will be on Friday evening. All Red Star VII is May 14-18. If you
>> have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org to register now.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Date: 4/30/2008 11:35 AM
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
Budd,
I agree. I usually do a quick belly check at the 90 for one last
glimpse for anyone on short final. A short puff of smoke can be helpful if
there's any question of any other traffic around. But, as your point
illustrates, the long low straight-in is maybe a more dangerous approach
than a tight turning carrier type approach. Never the less, fault is
immaterial to the victim when someone is killed.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Budd Davisson" <buddairbum@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Glide speed and carrier approaches
>
> A note on 180 degree "carrier type" approaches in a civilian context.
>
> Although I'm flying neither a Yak nor a CJ, I make 15-25 approaches a day
> instructing landings in my Pitts,in which many folks also fly 180 degree
> approaches. I did too until I watched a friend, a former Scooter jockey
> flying his Pitts, roll off the perch and miss seeing a C-150 on a long,
> low
> straight in. He managed to time it so that he never saw the 150 through
> the
> entire approach and actually touched down about 200 feet directly behind
> him. He roared right up behind it until the wings popped into view around
> the nose and he careened off the runway to avoid it.
>
> The Navy can fly those kinds of approaches because everyone in their
> context
> is flying the same kind of pattern in the same place. Plus, they are all
> professionals. On a civilian field, where at least half the people in the
> pattern are severely wanting in commonsense and flying ability, you never
> know where they are going to be. And, once you're committed to the turn,
> you
> don't have another chance to check final for traffic. Plus, your nose is
> following traffic. I personally know two people who have landed on other
> airplanes flying that approach (no physical injuries in either) and, if I
> know two, there must be dozens of others.
>
> I now put a short base leg in the approach (I call it a "belly check") to
> give me one more peak. It also eliminates the problem of an over-shooting
> cross wind pushing a pilot into centerline and having to tighten up the
> turn
> at the bottom, right when you really don't want that much bank.
>
> No one asked, but that's my two cents and it's worth what you paid.
>
> Budd Davisson
>
>
> On 4/30/08 11:21 AM, "Mark Davis" <mark@pld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The purpose of the carrier landing pattern is to recover a group of
>> airplanes as quickly as possible while a carrier is turned into the wind
>> with a consistent minimum interval. Most airwings use a 45 second
>> interval
>> during the daytime. It gives enough time to get an airplane out of the
>> wires and across the foul line in time for a clear deck for the following
>> aircraft. Night time only increases to 60 seconds. Too close of
>> intervals result in foul deck waveoffs. Too many foul deck waveoffs and
>> the
>> Captain and Admiral get pissed. Our airwing logged the landing intervals
>> on
>> every daytime recovery to identify those that couldn't stay within +/- 5
>> seconds of the 45 second target. All aircraft must maintain a uniform
>> pattern to maintain a constant interval. That's the part we need to work
>> on. Everyone in a formation flight needs to be flying a similar pattern
>> to
>> avoid dangerously close intervals for successive landing airplanes. The
>> landing pattern needs to be briefed AND DEBRIEFED on every formation
>> flight.
>> Tight or loose doesn't matter as much as uniformity and the wingmen
>> should
>> be following the lead's distance abeam out of the break.
>>
>> Mark Davis
>> N44YK
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Barry Hancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:26 AM
>> Subject: Yak-List: Glide speed and carrier approaches
>>
>>
>>> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>>>
>>> Gang,
>>>
>>> I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others like
>>> mechanics and numbers. I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be
>>> accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a
>>> windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various altitudes
>>> and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots). I seem to remember Brian Lloyd doing
>>> an
>>> extensive test on this some time back and posting it. Should be able
>>> to
>>> do an archive search....
>>>
>>> As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak,
>>> L-39,
>>> Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the end of
>>> a
>>> boring cross country flight. That being said it is much more to manage
>>> in a shorter amount of time. We fly pretty forgiving airplanes, but if
>>> your too tight to the runway that will require getting closer to the
>>> stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the constant turn to final. As
>>> mentioned, too far away has other problems. The critical things are
>>> airspeed and bank angle. Just remember your stall speed increases with
>>> your bank angle. If you're new to the overhead approach, take it
>>> slow....start your breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure
>>> end
>>> of the runway and then progressively move them towards the approach end
>>> as you get more comfortable and habit patterns develop.
>>>
>>> My two cents.
>>>
>>> Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at
>>> ARS.
>>> ;) It will be on Friday evening. All Red Star VII is May 14-18. If
>>> you
>>> have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org to register now.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Date: 4/30/2008 11:35 AM
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 11:35 AM
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang; subject change |
Ah yes, the old Boeing pattern in the spam can. I instructed some at LNA in Florida
where there were many students. I've seen students bust PBI airspace about
3 miles away in the "pattern". I once saw a 152 do a 360 for "spacing" behind
a twin. Best thing an instructor can do is pull power in downwind and make
em try to get to the runway. It is a lesson they never forget. However, too
many instructors are looking for the next job and really don't care as they
are there building time not building better pilots.
I moved here (NC) and went flying with a low time CAP guy at RDU. We were give
a long straight in approach by the controller. He flew a perfect final approach
- for an airliner. Under us were woods, rock quarries, etc. I asked him
why he flew the approach like he did. His answer was he had the glide slope nailed.
Nice, but why do you need to do that in a 182? No answer. Heck, we
could have stayed at 1000 feet AGL all the way to the threshold and still landed
on the runway.
Also remember, stay close and be very aware of where the wind is coming from as
it may push you out of range (or too close) if not properly corrected for.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180414#180414
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Gliding range specs for Nanchang |
Hit "Present Position" on the Anywhere Map and that is where you will land.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180415#180415
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