Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:56 AM - Prop's (CJcanuck)
2. 08:35 AM - Re: Prop's (Terry Lewis)
3. 09:13 AM - Re: Prop's (Cpayne)
4. 09:31 AM - Re: Prop's (Walter Lannon)
5. 10:00 AM - L/D (Barry Hancock)
6. 10:18 AM - L/D redux (Jerry Painter)
7. 10:26 AM - Fw: L/D (Jerry Painter)
8. 10:34 AM - Fw: L/D redux (Jerry Painter)
9. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches ()
10. 11:36 AM - Re: Prop's (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
11. 11:53 AM - Re: Prop's (Bill Tally)
12. 12:48 PM - Re: Fw: L/D redux (Jerry Painter)
13. 03:37 PM - Re: Fw: L/D (Budd Davisson)
14. 04:14 PM - Re: L/D (Brian Lloyd)
15. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches (Brian Lloyd)
16. 07:21 PM - Re: Prop's (Walter Lannon)
17. 07:55 PM - Lone Star Red Star (Jon Boede)
Message 1
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Hey All!
I've just reinstalled my prop after having it overhauled and repainted. After
shutting down from the first run we had a small amount of grease running down
each prop blade from the hub The flow is symmetrical as far as I can tell. Having
brand new seals and all I'm wondering if this is 'normal' or if there are
other issues at work here.
On a related issue, I'm keen to contact the company in Australia that is selling
the prop spinners and some of the speed mods. Anyone have contact info?
Thanks!
Mike Kirk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180682#180682
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A couple of questions?
1)What kind of prop?
2) Is the grease on the blade really grease or is it engine oil?
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message -----
From: "CJcanuck" <m_kirk69@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 10:51 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Prop's
>
> Hey All!
>
> I've just reinstalled my prop after having it overhauled and repainted.
> After shutting down from the first run we had a small amount of grease
> running down each prop blade from the hub The flow is symmetrical as far
> as I can tell. Having brand new seals and all I'm wondering if this is
> 'normal' or if there are other issues at work here.
>
> On a related issue, I'm keen to contact the company in Australia that is
> selling the prop spinners and some of the speed mods. Anyone have contact
> info?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike Kirk
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180682#180682
>
>
>
Message 3
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Assuming you have the paddle blage prop, sounds like a normal situation following
re-greasing. A certain amount of grease, smeared inside, is going to be thrown
out for the first few hours. Be concerned that a blade seal is not seated
if it lasts longer than that.
Crai Payne
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That could be a normal condition after overhaul if excess grease was left
outside of the blade seal area. Clean it and recheck. Is it both blades?
If it continues you need to know whether it is grease or oil. Oil can only
come from the pitch change unit or transfer tube and will initially show up
leaking from the front of the hub at the "spinner" cap.
Eventually it will fill the hub, dilute the grease and leak past the grease
seals. The usual source is the two pitch change seals which would be
replaced at overhaul.
Who did your overhaul?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "CJcanuck" <m_kirk69@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Prop's
>
> Hey All!
>
> I've just reinstalled my prop after having it overhauled and repainted.
> After shutting down from the first run we had a small amount of grease
> running down each prop blade from the hub The flow is symmetrical as far
> as I can tell. Having brand new seals and all I'm wondering if this is
> 'normal' or if there are other issues at work here.
>
> On a related issue, I'm keen to contact the company in Australia that is
> selling the prop spinners and some of the speed mods. Anyone have contact
> info?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike Kirk
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180682#180682
>
>
>
Message 5
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On May 1, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> 1) In a prior post, it was stated "stall speed increases with angle
> of bank."
> Well, not really. We should all become students of the V-G
> diagram. Stall speed
> increases with increased load factor. It happens that load factor
> increases
> with angle of bank.
Right....and it was my post you're referring to. Just to be clear,
from a practical standpoint if you are in the pattern (low airspeed
already) with a high bank angle (created by being too close on
downwind as was the scenario I presented) and you need to react to
something out of the ordinary or just plain overshoot centerline and
decide to pull on the stick (increased load) to "correct" the
situation, you've just entered the aviation version of "dead man's
curve"...
Of course this is all basic airmanship and L/D is what we're
specifically talking about, but unless you have an AOA in your
airplane I don't think most people are going to be calculating
reserve lift on short final. Like I said, some people are mechanical
fliers, some people are feel fliers (referring to VFR, of course).
Hopefully, however, we can all feel the Yak/CJ approaching departed
flight without ever looking at an instrument...
> However, in some banked flight regimes, such as banked
> descending flight, the load factor may not increase.
Or 110 degrees of bank in a wing over... ;)
Cheers,
Barry
Message 6
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Message 7
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I posted this yesterday, but for some reason it didn't show up on list, only
the header, so here it is again.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Jerry Painter
Subject: L/D
This is an interesting discussion. Let's see if I can make some waves, just
for fun.
You can follow the same flight path power on/off flaps up/down etc. by
simply varying speed and drag. Power, speed, drag and flight path are all
interdependent variables--the Fab Four in the L/D equation. T-Crafts,
Cherokees, CJ's, -52's, 747's et al. I have to say I've never quite
understood what makes folks think that when you enter the pattern the
airplane suddenly becomes more likely to have an engine failure than while
en route, ergo power-off approaches, but that's another discussion. I fly
over mountains/water all the time. Yes, I understand that first power
reduction is the mostly likely time for engine failure, so take your time
about that, but we're talking approaches. I dare say "nobody," wannabees or
otherwise, "normally" makes power-off approaches in typical military or
civilian trainer, fighter or transport aircraft, feet wet or dry, recip or
turbine, though I'm sure there are exceptions (emergency/practice), but, hey
I'm just a civilian. The X-15 had a near 1:1 l/d, I expect the Shuttle isn
t much better, most of the approach is less than that. In any case, there's
no point in slowing to best L/D or pulling the power off until you've got
the runway made, X-15 or otherwise--we're not talking timed approaches are
we? The only time speed really matters is on touchdown. Budd is absolutely
right about the need to fit into the flow, like it or not--cutting others
off isn't just bad manners, its dangerous. At the home drome, KAWO, on those
occasional sunny and even usual rainy days we have to mix it up with various
civilian single/multi/turbines, helicopters (what makes them want to
land/autorotate on the runways and taxiways inquiring minds want to know,
SSH is--for the better--gone, but, apparently, not forgotten), gliders,
ultralights, RV 360 gaggles, overlapping patterns left, right, parallel and
diagonal plus the odd P-47, Me-109 (thank you, Paul Allen), Apha Jet/L-39
and usual bizjets, practice ILS against the flow with missed right through
the downwind (tho not in the procedure). And once in a while the Navy drops
by in a P-3 for good measure, tho no B-1's or -2's, yet.
Constant speed power-off 60mph approaches in your J-3 or power-off manhole
cover in your Pitts ainna gonna cut it for spacing, 360 or otherwise, no
hurry for combat turnaround. Plus, as Barry says, if you're making a 60
degree bank be sure you keep the speed up because the stall just went to 1
4Vso. The only good thing about a 45 degree bank in the pattern is max rate
of turn for altitude lost, so its good for that (absolutely necessary?) 180
back to the patch, but the stall goes up to 1.2Vso, so keep the speed up
then, too. And mid-airs ain't no fun, neither.
The ILS is 3 degrees (20:1) for good reason, but not many of us can do it
power-off. Emergencies ain't standard procedure.
Jerry Painter
CFI, A&P, Chief pilot, airport bum, permanent latrine orderly & c.
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
wild.blue@verizon.net
www.FlyWBA.com
Message 8
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Re-formatted just in case. Take two.
-------Original Message-------
From: Jerry Painter
Subject: L/D redux
Another factor that can play a big role is that many M-14 powered aircraft
have MT, Whirlwind and other 3-blade props that become very effective
airbrakes when pushed to high rpm at low power. I was reminded of this
yesterday flying with Jim Bourke, owner of RC Groups.com, in his Yak-54
(formerly owned by Eric Beard and known on the airshow circuit as Russian
Thunder). It has an MT. Jim likes to fly a "high-speed" (200-225 kph or so,
all the way to flare), close-in pattern, giving him better visibility, then
as he begins to flare he simply pushes the prop up to high rpm, followed by
reduced throttle. It's like flying into a big bowl of mush. The airplane
screeches to a halt, squats and lands. I've occasionally used this technique
myself, traffic permitting. The huge drag of the prop gives huge control of
speed at a moment's notice. If nothing else its a fun technique and keeping
the speed up on final can only be a good thing safety-wise. Not exactly your
typical (though it could be, in fact not a bad idea) practice "emergency"
landing technique, high, fast and steep. Not sure about MT's, but Whirlwinds
go high pitch with lost oil pressure.
There aren't many geared flat (or round) engines around any more and I've
read about alleged problems pilots of geared T-Bones and Commanders had with
reverse-loading of their engines, though I'm not sure "reverse-loading" is
actually happening, and its very short term during flare in any case. Anyone
have anything to offer on the subject re M-14's? Facts, not conjecture and
old-wives tales, please. Some of you old bomber pilots must have some info
on Pratts and Wrights, no?
On another subject, the -54 has very pronounced roll-coupling with rudder,
even though the rudder tapers significantly, with most of the area down low.
Not having much experience with big-rudder-optimized-for-gyros aerobatic
airplanes (like "none"), I'm wondering whether this is common and if it may
have contributed to some of the -54 "odd quirks" and "killer" stories, in
that that one was apparently spun in in Alaska (I understand it was the only
other -54 in the US). I didn't get much chance to explore it and its (way)
beyond my skill set anyway, but its a bit surprising to have the airplane
roll opposite rudder input, I.e., skid right and the left wing drops a bunch
A big help for some tumbling maneuvers no doubt, but may make some typical
maneuvers (like say, slips) and, especially, recovery techniques a bit odd
if not plain inappropriate.
BTW, Eric and Bud Granley are the only people I've seen hover an airplane
(Bud in his -55, preferably while inverted, flying formation with a
helicopter at very, very low altitude), though it may be common now. Didn't
get a chance to try it myself, but would love to one fine day.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
wild.blue@verizon.net
www.FlyWBA.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
I recently had some friends going for their PPL and we had a similar
discussion regarding traffic patterns. When I was learning my instructor
bordered on being physically abusive if I was not within gliding distance of
the runway anytime after being established on downwind. Several of my
friends who are currently working on or have recently received their PPL
looked at me with a blank stare when I asked about this technique.
Awareness of engine out gliding distance in the pattern wasn't even taught.
They did of course practice engine outs but that was merely practice for off
field situation. They said their instruction was focused on quality of
their pattern and setting up their approach. It was taught very much from
the airline pilot perspective. It was kind of disturbing if you ask me, but
then again it's not how I was raised.
S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann,
CFI
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches
OK, ponder these items:
1) In a prior post, it was stated "stall speed increases with angle of
bank." Well, not really. We should all become students of the V-G diagram.
Stall speed increases with increased load factor. It happens that load
factor increases with angle of bank. However, in some banked flight
regimes, such as banked descending flight, the load factor may not increase.
2) At a controlled field, controllers will typically put an overhead break
approach 500 feet above the normal pattern altitude for single engine piston
aircraft. This is in the operations manual for air traffic control.
3) The AIM provides info on the traffic pattern. The "recommended" pattern
is rectangular with left turns. This pattern is mostly a safety of flight
pattern. It allows a pilot to get wings level before reconfiguring the
aircraft (flaps, gear, change power, etc). It also allows for a visual
check of where the runway is (high wing planes) and allows a look at the
final approach corridor (remember, if there is an instrument approach for
the runway you are landing on, there may be instrument traffic flying an
approach and not talking on your frequency yet). Also, you will note the
names of the legs are designed for position reporting. The only items in
"key traffic pattern operations" is to fly downwind at pattern altitude
(unless otherwise instructed by a controller) and to complete the turn to
final at least 1/4 mile before the runway. Given this, the continuous turn
to final does not conflict with the AIM.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180616#180616
Message 10
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Not sure whether the CJ is identical to the M-14 in this regard, but on
the latter, there is a third source for the problem that you detail (oil
getting into the hub and diluting the grease to the point where it makes
it out past the prop shaft seals) and that is the transfer tube seal
itself. This is a crush washer type deal that is installed "underneath"
the threaded portion of the transfer tube that screws into the motor and
then sticks out and provides the oil path to get into the hub itself. A
lot of people like to try and use these seals over again after pulling
them out for inspection. That doesn't work real well.
Good luck,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 12:29
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop's
That could be a normal condition after overhaul if excess grease was
left outside of the blade seal area. Clean it and recheck. Is it both
blades?
If it continues you need to know whether it is grease or oil. Oil can
only come from the pitch change unit or transfer tube and will initially
show up leaking from the front of the hub at the "spinner" cap.
Eventually it will fill the hub, dilute the grease and leak past the
grease seals. The usual source is the two pitch change seals which would
be replaced at overhaul.
Who did your overhaul?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "CJcanuck" <m_kirk69@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Prop's
>
> Hey All!
>
> I've just reinstalled my prop after having it overhauled and
repainted.
> After shutting down from the first run we had a small amount of grease
> running down each prop blade from the hub The flow is symmetrical as
far
> as I can tell. Having brand new seals and all I'm wondering if this is
> 'normal' or if there are other issues at work here.
>
> On a related issue, I'm keen to contact the company in Australia that
is
> selling the prop spinners and some of the speed mods. Anyone have
contact
> info?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike Kirk
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180682#180682
>
>
>
Message 11
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George Coy wrote an excellent article on prop maintenance that appears in Vol.
5, No. 2, page 3 of the old "Yak Driver" publication (from 1997). Referring to
the assembly procedure, George says "You will see also that there is a blade
"v" type seal that is supposed to retain the grease. I have found that these
are not very effective, and that for the first 5 to 10 hours after lubricating
the prop, grease will run out of these shank seals and leave streaks on the
prop. That is just the way it is."
I have found George's observations to be right on point.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180763#180763
Message 12
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Message 13
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My attitude is that every airplane that can be landed power off from
downwind SHOULD be landed power off as often as practical so the pilot
develops an intuitive set of references. That way, when the engine finally
does decide to pack up, you know exactly how the airplane is going to react
in that situation.
In high performance airplanes like Yaks, Pitts, etc, the L/D difference
between power-off and just enough power to tell that you have it on, is
huge. Partially because of the prop angle changing and partially because of
matching the prop rpm to the forward speed, which reduces braking effect and
greatly flattens the glide angle. If most approaches are flown with just a
hair of power to make it easier to judge the approach, then, when the engine
quits, the pilot is in unknown territory and on a test flight.
I'm not saying every single approach should be flown power off (although
mine always are, when possible), but enough should be to develop the
references so you know where you'll be at the bottom of the dead engine
glide from any altitude.
I flew for 38 years without a single serious engine problem, then had two,
in two different aircraft (a Pitts and a C-150) within 24 hours. I've had
three since then, all three in one year, all three in Pitts (hard to
diagnose fuel pump problems). Plus a fire and a complete loss of oil
pressure.
Knowing where it's going to go when the propeller stops propelling is a good
thing.
bd
On 5/2/08 10:24 AM, "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I posted this yesterday, but for some reason it didn't show up on list, only
> the header, so here it is again.
> JP
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jerry Painter
> Date: 5/1/2008 7:44:25 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: L/D
>
> This is an interesting discussion. Let's see if I can make some waves, just
> for fun.
>
> You can follow the same flight path power on/off flaps up/down etc. by
> simply varying speed and drag. Power, speed, drag and flight path are all
> interdependent variables--the Fab Four in the L/D equation. T-Crafts,
> Cherokees, CJ's, -52's, 747's et al. I have to say I've never quite
> understood what makes folks think that when you enter the pattern the
> airplane suddenly becomes more likely to have an engine failure than while
> en route, ergo power-off approaches, but that's another discussion. I fly
> over mountains/water all the time. Yes, I understand that first power
> reduction is the mostly likely time for engine failure, so take your time
> about that, but we're talking approaches. I dare say "nobody," wannabees or
> otherwise, "normally" makes power-off approaches in typical military or
> civilian trainer, fighter or transport aircraft, feet wet or dry, recip or
> turbine, though I'm sure there are exceptions (emergency/practice), but, hey
> I'm just a civilian. The X-15 had a near 1:1 l/d, I expect the Shuttle isn
> t much better, most of the approach is less than that. In any case, there's
> no point in slowing to best L/D or pulling the power off until you've got
> the runway made, X-15 or otherwise--we're not talking timed approaches are
> we? The only time speed really matters is on touchdown. Budd is absolutely
> right about the need to fit into the flow, like it or not--cutting others
> off isn't just bad manners, its dangerous. At the home drome, KAWO, on those
> occasional sunny and even usual rainy days we have to mix it up with various
> civilian single/multi/turbines, helicopters (what makes them want to
> land/autorotate on the runways and taxiways inquiring minds want to know,
> SSH is--for the better--gone, but, apparently, not forgotten), gliders,
> ultralights, RV 360 gaggles, overlapping patterns left, right, parallel and
> diagonal plus the odd P-47, Me-109 (thank you, Paul Allen), Apha Jet/L-39
> and usual bizjets, practice ILS against the flow with missed right through
> the downwind (tho not in the procedure). And once in a while the Navy drops
> by in a P-3 for good measure, tho no B-1's or -2's, yet.
>
> Constant speed power-off 60mph approaches in your J-3 or power-off manhole
> cover in your Pitts ainna gonna cut it for spacing, 360 or otherwise, no
> hurry for combat turnaround. Plus, as Barry says, if you're making a 60
> degree bank be sure you keep the speed up because the stall just went to 1
> 4Vso. The only good thing about a 45 degree bank in the pattern is max rate
> of turn for altitude lost, so its good for that (absolutely necessary?) 180
> back to the patch, but the stall goes up to 1.2Vso, so keep the speed up
> then, too. And mid-airs ain't no fun, neither.
>
> The ILS is 3 degrees (20:1) for good reason, but not many of us can do it
> power-off. Emergencies ain't standard procedure.
>
> Jerry Painter
> CFI, A&P, Chief pilot, airport bum, permanent latrine orderly & c.
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> wild.blue@verizon.net
> www.FlyWBA.com
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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>> However, in some banked flight regimes, such as banked
>> descending flight, the load factor may not increase.
>
> Or 110 degrees of bank in a wing over... ;)
Ah, you remember.
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches |
On May 2, 2008, at 11:23 AM, <scott.glaser@thedefiantcompany.com> wrote:
>
> I recently had some friends going for their PPL and we had a similar
> discussion regarding traffic patterns. When I was learning my
> instructor
> bordered on being physically abusive if I was not within gliding
> distance of
> the runway anytime after being established on downwind. Several of my
> friends who are currently working on or have recently received their
> PPL
> looked at me with a blank stare when I asked about this technique.
> Awareness of engine out gliding distance in the pattern wasn't even
> taught.
That is *REALLY* odd because a power-off spot landing from downwind is
a REQUIRED maneuver for PPL. (+200'/-0' from designated touch-down
point.)
> They did of course practice engine outs but that was merely practice
> for off
> field situation. They said their instruction was focused on quality
> of
> their pattern and setting up their approach. It was taught very
> much from
> the airline pilot perspective. It was kind of disturbing if you ask
> me, but
> then again it's not how I was raised.
That was true for a long time but the FAA has brought this home with
the required demonstration of the power-off spot landing. I let my CFI
lapse two years ago and had to take a check-ride again. The DE was a
stickler on this as it had just recently been added to the list of
required maneuvers. As a CFI one must demonstrate this to CL
proficiency, i.e. +100'/-0' from the designated touchdown point.
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
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Message 16
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Mark;
The J9 G1 and the V530 are absolutely identical in this respect. If you
would re-read my post you will find that I did refer to the transfer as a
third potential leak source.
Cheers;
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Prop's
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Not sure whether the CJ is identical to the M-14 in this regard, but on
> the latter, there is a third source for the problem that you detail (oil
> getting into the hub and diluting the grease to the point where it makes
> it out past the prop shaft seals) and that is the transfer tube seal
> itself. This is a crush washer type deal that is installed "underneath"
> the threaded portion of the transfer tube that screws into the motor and
> then sticks out and provides the oil path to get into the hub itself. A
> lot of people like to try and use these seals over again after pulling
> them out for inspection. That doesn't work real well.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 12:29
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Prop's
>
>
> That could be a normal condition after overhaul if excess grease was
> left outside of the blade seal area. Clean it and recheck. Is it both
> blades?
> If it continues you need to know whether it is grease or oil. Oil can
> only come from the pitch change unit or transfer tube and will initially
> show up leaking from the front of the hub at the "spinner" cap.
> Eventually it will fill the hub, dilute the grease and leak past the
> grease seals. The usual source is the two pitch change seals which would
> be replaced at overhaul.
> Who did your overhaul?
>
> Walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "CJcanuck" <m_kirk69@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:51 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Prop's
>
>
>>
>> Hey All!
>>
>> I've just reinstalled my prop after having it overhauled and
> repainted.
>> After shutting down from the first run we had a small amount of grease
>
>> running down each prop blade from the hub The flow is symmetrical as
> far
>> as I can tell. Having brand new seals and all I'm wondering if this is
>
>> 'normal' or if there are other issues at work here.
>>
>> On a related issue, I'm keen to contact the company in Australia that
> is
>> selling the prop spinners and some of the speed mods. Anyone have
> contact
>> info?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Mike Kirk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180682#180682
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Lone Star Red Star |
Just wanted to remind you guys about the fly-in and formation clinic at Lan
caster, Texas... near Dallas.
June 5th (Thursday) through 8th (Sunday).
Formation clinic, social Friday night, hangar BBQ Saturday night with speak
er.
This year's speaker will be Gail Peck, who ran the Constant Peg squadron fl
ying "borrowed" MiGs out at Nellis.
Full information at http://www.cwam.org/LSRS
Jon
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