Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:02 PM - Required crewmember (ronwasson)
2. 03:22 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Stephen Fox)
3. 03:44 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 04:15 PM - Re: Required crewmember (David McGirt)
5. 04:22 PM - Re: Required crewmember (bu131@swbell.net)
6. 04:27 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Forrest Johnson)
7. 04:35 PM - Re: Required crewmember (ronald wasson)
8. 04:57 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 05:06 PM - Re: Required crewmember (cjpilot710@aol.com)
10. 05:28 PM - Re: Required crewmember (cjpilot710@aol.com)
11. 05:36 PM - Re: Required crewmember (David McGirt)
12. 05:39 PM - Re: Required crewmember (David McGirt)
13. 05:43 PM - REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY (David McGirt)
14. 06:21 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
15. 06:32 PM - Keeping your Airplanes clean at OSH (David McGirt)
16. 06:38 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 06:46 PM - Re: Required crewmember (David McGirt)
18. 07:20 PM - CFI Needed (Dennis Von Ruden)
19. 07:47 PM - Re: Required crewmember (John Cox)
20. 08:18 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Jim Griffin)
21. 09:02 PM - Re: Anybody have a CJ Near Raleigh, NC (shirleytan)
22. 09:23 PM - Re: Required crewmember (mikspin)
23. 09:47 PM - Re: Required crewmember (ronald wasson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes , Insurance, fast
card are all in order. My question is if my son, who hold a private license,
can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic
for me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Pretty sure the answer is your son will not be permitted to fly in
your back seat during show formations.
On Jul 21, 2008, at 5:59 PM, ronwasson wrote:
> My question is if my son, who hold a private license, can be in
> the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic
> for me.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
I for one am VERY interested in what the reply to this question will be,
seeing that the Experimental Exhibition Category itself says that no one
is allowed to fly in such an aircraft unless they are categorized as a
"Required Crew Member".
Thus... If he can not fly in there for the formation.. The question
would be "why not"? If someone is foolish enough to say: "Because he is
not a Required Crew Member", then that opens Pandora's Box as to just
what a Required Crew Member really is, and that FOR SURE is NEVER going
to be that nice young babe you met last night that you promised to take
for a ride.... Is it?
Personally... I would answer it this way:
If the freaking Blue Angels can take any Tom/Dick or Harry up for a ride
in their two seat F-18, including their participation in formation
flight, I do believe Mr. Wasson's Private Pilot Son can sit in the
backseat of the aircraft and do anything he likes other than operate the
flight controls of the aircraft while in formation flight.
Answering it any other way than that requires an explanation... And boy
OH BOY.....I do not think ANYONE wants to go there, but hey, I've been
wrong before.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK (As in: "Back Seats? BACK SEATS? We don't NEED no stinkin BACK
SEATS!")
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Fox
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Pretty sure the answer is your son will not be permitted to fly in your
back seat during show formations.
On Jul 21, 2008, at 5:59 PM, ronwasson wrote:
My question is if my son, who hold a private license, can be in
the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for
me.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Ron,
In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show into
Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during wavered
airspace.
You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a show.. You
can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's permission on Wed
to allow additional crew for the big mass formation for 4 planes - mission
safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant these. To your point,
because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am asking for a spotter in the
backseat of the Flight Leads.
Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :) before and
after, but not during..
So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday ( we
will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course, he can
sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered airspace is
up..
David
On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes , Insurance,
> fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who hold a private
> license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to
> spot traffic for me.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Another pair of eyes is priceless
Your son is a crewmember
Andres
------Original Message------
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Jul 21, 2008 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
I for one am VERY interested in what the reply to this question will be,
seeing that the Experimental Exhibition Category itself says that no one
is allowed to fly in such an aircraft unless they are categorized as a
"Required Crew Member".
Thus... If he can not fly in there for the formation.. The question
would be "why not"? If someone is foolish enough to say: "Because he is
not a Required Crew Member", then that opens Pandora's Box as to just
what a Required Crew Member really is, and that FOR SURE is NEVER going
to be that nice young babe you met last night that you promised to take
for a ride.... Is it?
Personally... I would answer it this way:
If the freaking Blue Angels can take any Tom/Dick or Harry up for a ride
in their two seat F-18, including their participation in formation
flight, I do believe Mr. Wasson's Private Pilot Son can sit in the
backseat of the aircraft and do anything he likes other than operate the
flight controls of the aircraft while in formation flight.
Answering it any other way than that requires an explanation... And boy
OH BOY.....I do not think ANYONE wants to go there, but hey, I've been
wrong before.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK (As in: "Back Seats? BACK SEATS? We don't NEED no stinkin BACK
SEATS!")
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Fox
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Pretty sure the answer is your son will not be permitted to fly in your
back seat during show formations.
On Jul 21, 2008, at 5:59 PM, ronwasson wrote:
My question is if my son, who hold a private license, can be in
the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for
me.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
I don't think the FAA will allow in waivered airspace ( air show only) other
times will be OK
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 4:59 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
> Insurance, fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who hold
> a private license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his
> 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Ok Thanks for the info. I will watch this one from the ground for
a change. Hearing 50 Yak's in formation is much better than flying
in it and only seeing your leader. Must agree with you about the FAA
being not about safety but hard and fast rules.
On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:12 PM, David McGirt wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show into
> Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during
> wavered
> airspace.
>
> You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a
> show.. You
> can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's
> permission on Wed
> to allow additional crew for the big mass formation for 4 planes -
> mission
> safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant these. To your
> point,
> because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am asking for a
> spotter in the
> backseat of the Flight Leads.
>
> Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :)
> before and
> after, but not during..
>
> So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday
> ( we
> will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course,
> he can
> sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered
> airspace is
> up..
>
> David
>
>
> On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
>>
>> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
>> Insurance,
>> fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who hold a
>> private
>> license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10
>> eyes to
>> spot traffic for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
Ah... "The Infamous Wavered Airspace Clause"
David, it is a moot point, but Airshow Wavered Space is really not much
different than Aerobatic Practice or Aerobatic Competion Airspace. Most
of the same rules are indeed wavered.
As it turns out, I am the signatory on some Wavered Airspace myself. No
where in any of the paperwork that I am sitting here looking at right
now says anything about not allowing a person in the backseat to ride
along inside of that wavered airspace in an aerobatic aircraft. But...
This is of course not an AIRSHOW wavered airspace.
So.... It must be something special that applies to Air Shows only where
you have to ask permission to have someone else in the aircraft while
flying in wavered airspace.
Could you possibly quote that to me so as to educate my less than bright
rear end? I'd really like to read where it says that.
Mark Bitterlich
AKA: "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BACK SEAT BADGES"
p.s. What do you call the co-pilot in a B-17 that is flying in Wavered
Airspace? A required crew member?
What do you call Ron's son flying in the backseat of a YAK-52?
Something other than a required crew member?
If the latter, how can be fly in there legally EVER? In ANY kind
of airspace? If he is a required crew
member outside of wavered airspace, how all of a sudden is he NOT
a required crew member IN wavered airspace.
Does the Mission Commander of a C-130 have to ask the FAA for
permission for all his crew when flying in
wavered airspace? Ah... That would be no.
Ya gotta love these interesting questions.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Ron,
In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show into
Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during wavered
airspace.
You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a show..
You can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's
permission on Wed to allow additional crew for the big mass formation
for 4 planes - mission safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant
these. To your point, because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am
asking for a spotter in the backseat of the Flight Leads.
Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :) before
and after, but not during..
So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday ( we
will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course, he
can sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered
airspace is up..
David
On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
> Insurance, fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who
> hold a private license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and
> use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc. etc.
etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat only - FAST
rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as GIB for
airshow orientation.
A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
formation safety pilot.
Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the briefing.
You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or passenger
as a required crew member for "safety".
After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to fly
the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened to be the
only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST card. I will have
only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated), and the flight mechanic -
all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's daughter-in-law, not my kids or
grand kids, no reporters nor news camera men, ETC ETC.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
In a message dated 7/21/2008 7:38:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ronwasson@mindspring.com writes:
Ok Thanks for the info. I will watch this one from the ground for
a change. Hearing 50 Yak's in formation is much better than flying
in it and only seeing your leader. Must agree with you about the FAA
being not about safety but hard and fast rules.
Hmmmmmmmm. To bad. There is a good chance this will never to done again.
Pappy
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Hi Ron,
I hope you take the chance to fly in the shows, you will enjoy them. We
would love the help of your son on the ground as well. The formations are
made to be easy for any formation rated pilot - if you are comfortable in a
4-ship, you will enjoy the shows. Look forward to meeting you at West Bend
and/or Oshkosh
David
On 7/21/08 7:31 PM, "ronald wasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Ok Thanks for the info. I will watch this one from the ground for
> a change. Hearing 50 Yak's in formation is much better than flying
> in it and only seeing your leader. Must agree with you about the FAA
> being not about safety but hard and fast rules.
>
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:12 PM, David McGirt wrote:
>
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show into
>> Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during
>> wavered
>> airspace.
>>
>> You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a
>> show.. You
>> can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's
>> permission on Wed
>> to allow additional crew for the big mass formation for 4 planes -
>> mission
>> safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant these. To your
>> point,
>> because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am asking for a
>> spotter in the
>> backseat of the Flight Leads.
>>
>> Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :)
>> before and
>> after, but not during..
>>
>> So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday
>> ( we
>> will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course,
>> he can
>> sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered
>> airspace is
>> up..
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
>>> Insurance,
>>> fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who hold a
>>> private
>>> license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10
>>> eyes to
>>> spot traffic for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
That is a fair request, I will see if I can get a copy of the waiver for
Oshkosh.. I will tell you those are the words that come out of the mouth of
the Airboss, and the FAA guy that is in the briefing - but to your point, it
can not hurt to find the words.. I am sure as hell not going to arm wrestle
your big ol self over it..
David
On 7/21/08 7:54 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Ah... "The Infamous Wavered Airspace Clause"
>
> David, it is a moot point, but Airshow Wavered Space is really not much
> different than Aerobatic Practice or Aerobatic Competion Airspace. Most
> of the same rules are indeed wavered.
>
> As it turns out, I am the signatory on some Wavered Airspace myself. No
> where in any of the paperwork that I am sitting here looking at right
> now says anything about not allowing a person in the backseat to ride
> along inside of that wavered airspace in an aerobatic aircraft. But...
> This is of course not an AIRSHOW wavered airspace.
>
> So.... It must be something special that applies to Air Shows only where
> you have to ask permission to have someone else in the aircraft while
> flying in wavered airspace.
>
> Could you possibly quote that to me so as to educate my less than bright
> rear end? I'd really like to read where it says that.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
> AKA: "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BACK SEAT BADGES"
>
> p.s. What do you call the co-pilot in a B-17 that is flying in Wavered
> Airspace? A required crew member?
> What do you call Ron's son flying in the backseat of a YAK-52?
> Something other than a required crew member?
> If the latter, how can be fly in there legally EVER? In ANY kind
> of airspace? If he is a required crew
> member outside of wavered airspace, how all of a sudden is he NOT
> a required crew member IN wavered airspace.
>
> Does the Mission Commander of a C-130 have to ask the FAA for
> permission for all his crew when flying in
> wavered airspace? Ah... That would be no.
>
> Ya gotta love these interesting questions.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:12 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
> Ron,
>
> In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show into
> Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during wavered
> airspace.
>
> You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a show..
> You can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's
> permission on Wed to allow additional crew for the big mass formation
> for 4 planes - mission safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant
> these. To your point, because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am
> asking for a spotter in the backseat of the Flight Leads.
>
> Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :) before
> and after, but not during..
>
> So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday ( we
> will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course, he
> can sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered
> airspace is up..
>
> David
>
>
>
> On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
>> Insurance, fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who
>> hold a private license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and
>> use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY |
> REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY
The EAA and the organizers of Air venture 2008 have provided The RPA with a
unique opportunity to showcase our aircraft, our pilots and our =B3Culture of
Excellence=B2 throughout the week at Oshkosh. The centerpiece of our efforts
will be the 50 aircraft mass formation fly-over. While safety is our primar
y
mission, it is critically important for the RPA participants to exceed the
standards of performance seen in others.
This has been an collaboration which has required great effort to
complete. Each participant should become familiar with it prior to arrival
at West Bend or Oshkosh. It is a living document and some changes may be
made after arrival in order to adapt to field conditions, weather or EAA Ai
r
Boss requirements.
The Power Point presentation and the briefing video will be distributed to
the Regional Directors and posted on the website after Air Venture 2008.
This will become the standard for future events.
Link to file:
http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Briefing.pdf
Message 14
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
certified.
Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly in
an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY INSIDE
OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
Just curious.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc. etc.
etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat only
- FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as GIB
for airshow orientation.
A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
formation safety pilot.
Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
briefing.
You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened to
be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST card. I
will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated), and the
flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news camera
men, ETC ETC.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
Fantasy Football today
<http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Keeping your Airplanes clean at OSH |
All, one of the more industrious daughters of the pilots will be offering a
cleaning service at OSH:
"Get your Plane Cleaned by Sizzlin Liz
(Tim & Debbie Williams Daughter)
After you land why not a quick clean up so youll be ready for your next
flight to shine!
Products used: Clear View and Simple Green Extreme (aviation grade)
Price- $15
*Tips Accepted*
Wipe down of the leading edge, Fuselage, and tail with Simple Green.
Clean outside of canopy with Clear view.
*Come by Warbird section
Red Star Pilots Association RV and sign up on
The Sizzlin Liz sheet, or if you see me.*
Available Dates-Monday July 28 thru Saturday August 2 (anytime)
Funds to support my gas tank."
Message 16
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
AIR BOSS..... A I R B O S S !!!!!!!
AHA... Now you see, to be clear that is a totally different situation,
and it honestly is where I was heading for with all of this.
The AIR BOSS has totally free latitude to specify any darn thing he
wants. He can prohibit passengers, he can specify FAST pilots only
(like Pappy was referring to), and the list goes on and on. It is also
true that the FAA will BACK UP just about anything the AIR BOSS says.
That is because the AIR BOSS is allowed to add anything he darn well
wants to in order to INCREASE SAFETY IN WAVERED AIRSPACE, and as such
.... It could be easily argued that allowing ANY kind of passenger in a
formation flight is increasing the level of danger. The FAA will indeed
back that up. The AIR BOSS could legally prohibit Pilot passengers FAST
QUALIFIED OR NOT!
The big difference here is that the FAA did not CREATE such a rule, and
the FAA does not endorse or recognize FAST (sorry Pappy, that's the way
it is). The United States Federal Aviation Administration is very very
careful not to recognize or require certification from any other agency
other than itself. To do so opens them up for huge liability and
prejudicial concerns and they are not stupid.
I have no doubt David that those are the words that came out of the
mouth of the Air Boss and he is King. His word is indeed law and I
would not argue with the guy. Again, the FAA WILL INDEED BACK HIM UP!!!
It may be a small point to make, but it is a point that is important
when you dig into the depths of rulebooks. You see it *IS* the FAA who
writes the operating limitations, and many many YAK owners will see the
words in those limitations that say that only recognized and required
aircrew may fly in their Experimental Exhibition aircraft AT ALL. Read
those words carefully.... "AT ALL". Thus for the FAA to allow Ron's son
to ARRIVE in the aircraft, and then turn right around and say he is "Not
Required Aircrew" to fly in the wavered airspace would be contradicting
themselves. The FAA does NOT like to do that. So... In the end, Ron's
son not being allowed to fly in the wavered airspace is not due to
being, or not being.... a Required Crew Member and meeting FAA
requirements, it is a matter of meeting the AIR BOSS's rules and regs
and that is a whole different kettle of fish, and is as it should be.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
That is a fair request, I will see if I can get a copy of the waiver for
Oshkosh.. I will tell you those are the words that come out of the
mouth of the Airboss, and the FAA guy that is in the briefing - but to
your point, it can not hurt to find the words.. I am sure as hell not
going to arm wrestle your big ol self over it..
David
On 7/21/08 7:54 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Ah... "The Infamous Wavered Airspace Clause"
>
> David, it is a moot point, but Airshow Wavered Space is really not
> much different than Aerobatic Practice or Aerobatic Competion
> Airspace. Most of the same rules are indeed wavered.
>
> As it turns out, I am the signatory on some Wavered Airspace myself.
> No where in any of the paperwork that I am sitting here looking at
> right now says anything about not allowing a person in the backseat to
> ride along inside of that wavered airspace in an aerobatic aircraft.
But...
> This is of course not an AIRSHOW wavered airspace.
>
> So.... It must be something special that applies to Air Shows only
> where you have to ask permission to have someone else in the aircraft
> while flying in wavered airspace.
>
> Could you possibly quote that to me so as to educate my less than
> bright rear end? I'd really like to read where it says that.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
> AKA: "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BACK SEAT BADGES"
>
> p.s. What do you call the co-pilot in a B-17 that is flying in
> Wavered Airspace? A required crew member?
> What do you call Ron's son flying in the backseat of a YAK-52?
> Something other than a required crew member?
> If the latter, how can be fly in there legally EVER? In ANY
> kind of airspace? If he is a required crew
> member outside of wavered airspace, how all of a sudden is he
> NOT a required crew member IN wavered airspace.
>
> Does the Mission Commander of a C-130 have to ask the FAA for
> permission for all his crew when flying in
> wavered airspace? Ah... That would be no.
>
> Ya gotta love these interesting questions.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:12 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
> Ron,
>
> In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show
into
> Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during
> wavered airspace.
>
> You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a show..
> You can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's
> permission on Wed to allow additional crew for the big mass formation
> for 4 planes - mission safety being the reason, we HOPE they will
> grant these. To your point, because we will have >50 planes in the
> air, I am asking for a spotter in the backseat of the Flight Leads.
>
> Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :)
> before and after, but not during..
>
> So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday (
> we will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course,
> he can sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered
> airspace is up..
>
> David
>
>
>
> On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> --> <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
>>
>> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
>> Insurance, fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who
>> hold a private license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and
>> use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
" e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified in
aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively participating in
the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.) will be carried on
any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by this waiver. "
On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
>
> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>
> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>
> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
> certified.
>
> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly in
> an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY INSIDE
> OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>
> Just curious.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc. etc.
> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat only
> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>
> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as GIB
> for airshow orientation.
>
> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>
> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>
> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
> formation safety pilot.
>
> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
> briefing.
>
> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>
> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened to
> be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST card. I
> will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated), and the
> flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news camera
> men, ETC ETC.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
> Fantasy Football today
> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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I'm looking for a CFI that can give me 10 hours of dual in my CJ to
comply with the insurance requirement. I'm located South of Minneapolis
in Owatonna, Minnesota. Had another pilot fly off the required test
hours, but he is not a CFI. The CJ just completed a long restoration
process. Have approximately 1100 TT, with 800 in a Grumman American
AA-1B.
If interested, please contact me off list. Thanks.
Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
800.533.0524 (P)
877.344.4375 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
ALL INFORMATION IN THIS EMAIL, AND/OR ATTACHMENT(S) IS CONFIDENTIAL. If y
ou received this e mail in error, and are not the recipient(s) or responsib
le for receiving this e mail for the recipient, please inform the sender im
mediately, delete the e mail and any attachment(s) associated. This email h
as been scanned by Barracuda - Email Security System.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
During a Waivered period, no Blue Angel has ever had civvies in the
back. The only Required Crewmembers are those job descriptions listed
in the Operating Limitations and required all the time. The EAA takes a
similar view to the FAA Airshow Waivered Airspace requirements with
their warbirds.
In close formation work, if the pilot needs additional eyes, it might be
a great time to consider an eye examination prior to launch.
Lots of experience with Warbird waivered airspace leads me to say "Nice
Try". However I did see a wife who was a certified military medical
flight officer get the coveted approval not long ago. Will love to
watch this unfold.
John Cox -GIB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I for one am VERY interested in what the reply to this question will be,
seeing that the Experimental Exhibition Category itself says that no one
is allowed to fly in such an aircraft unless they are categorized as a
"Required Crew Member".
Thus... If he can not fly in there for the formation.. The question
would be "why not"? If someone is foolish enough to say: "Because he is
not a Required Crew Member", then that opens Pandora's Box as to just
what a Required Crew Member really is, and that FOR SURE is NEVER going
to be that nice young babe you met last night that you promised to take
for a ride.... Is it?
Personally... I would answer it this way:
If the freaking Blue Angels can take any Tom/Dick or Harry up for a ride
in their two seat F-18, including their participation in formation
flight, I do believe Mr. Wasson's Private Pilot Son can sit in the
backseat of the aircraft and do anything he likes other than operate the
flight controls of the aircraft while in formation flight.
Answering it any other way than that requires an explanation... And boy
OH BOY.....I do not think ANYONE wants to go there, but hey, I've been
wrong before.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK (As in: "Back Seats? BACK SEATS? We don't NEED no stinkin BACK
SEATS!")
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Fox
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Pretty sure the answer is your son will not be permitted to fly in your
back seat during show formations.
On Jul 21, 2008, at 5:59 PM, ronwasson wrote:
My question is if my son, who hold a private license, can be in
the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for
me.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
It was only recently that the regs were bent to allow us to arrive at the
airport and do the arrival airshow with our backseaters. It was a matter of
necessity to accomodate the formation groups and it saves them money for
just paying for fuel in the EAA's airspace.
You will have NO luck getting a backseater approved unless you are a first
timer at OSH. An OSH experienced pilot who is FAST Rated and competent in
the type aircraft will be approved and encouraged to accompany you.
Jim Griffin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> AIR BOSS..... A I R B O S S !!!!!!!
>
> AHA... Now you see, to be clear that is a totally different situation,
> and it honestly is where I was heading for with all of this.
>
> The AIR BOSS has totally free latitude to specify any darn thing he
> wants. He can prohibit passengers, he can specify FAST pilots only
> (like Pappy was referring to), and the list goes on and on. It is also
> true that the FAA will BACK UP just about anything the AIR BOSS says.
> That is because the AIR BOSS is allowed to add anything he darn well
> wants to in order to INCREASE SAFETY IN WAVERED AIRSPACE, and as such
> .... It could be easily argued that allowing ANY kind of passenger in a
> formation flight is increasing the level of danger. The FAA will indeed
> back that up. The AIR BOSS could legally prohibit Pilot passengers FAST
> QUALIFIED OR NOT!
>
> The big difference here is that the FAA did not CREATE such a rule, and
> the FAA does not endorse or recognize FAST (sorry Pappy, that's the way
> it is). The United States Federal Aviation Administration is very very
> careful not to recognize or require certification from any other agency
> other than itself. To do so opens them up for huge liability and
> prejudicial concerns and they are not stupid.
>
> I have no doubt David that those are the words that came out of the
> mouth of the Air Boss and he is King. His word is indeed law and I
> would not argue with the guy. Again, the FAA WILL INDEED BACK HIM UP!!!
>
>
> It may be a small point to make, but it is a point that is important
> when you dig into the depths of rulebooks. You see it *IS* the FAA who
> writes the operating limitations, and many many YAK owners will see the
> words in those limitations that say that only recognized and required
> aircrew may fly in their Experimental Exhibition aircraft AT ALL. Read
> those words carefully.... "AT ALL". Thus for the FAA to allow Ron's son
> to ARRIVE in the aircraft, and then turn right around and say he is "Not
> Required Aircrew" to fly in the wavered airspace would be contradicting
> themselves. The FAA does NOT like to do that. So... In the end, Ron's
> son not being allowed to fly in the wavered airspace is not due to
> being, or not being.... a Required Crew Member and meeting FAA
> requirements, it is a matter of meeting the AIR BOSS's rules and regs
> and that is a whole different kettle of fish, and is as it should be.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:37 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
> That is a fair request, I will see if I can get a copy of the waiver for
> Oshkosh.. I will tell you those are the words that come out of the
> mouth of the Airboss, and the FAA guy that is in the briefing - but to
> your point, it can not hurt to find the words.. I am sure as hell not
> going to arm wrestle your big ol self over it..
>
> David
>
>
> On 7/21/08 7:54 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
> 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> --> Point,
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Ah... "The Infamous Wavered Airspace Clause"
>>
>> David, it is a moot point, but Airshow Wavered Space is really not
>> much different than Aerobatic Practice or Aerobatic Competion
>> Airspace. Most of the same rules are indeed wavered.
>>
>> As it turns out, I am the signatory on some Wavered Airspace myself.
>> No where in any of the paperwork that I am sitting here looking at
>> right now says anything about not allowing a person in the backseat to
>
>> ride along inside of that wavered airspace in an aerobatic aircraft.
> But...
>> This is of course not an AIRSHOW wavered airspace.
>>
>> So.... It must be something special that applies to Air Shows only
>> where you have to ask permission to have someone else in the aircraft
>> while flying in wavered airspace.
>>
>> Could you possibly quote that to me so as to educate my less than
>> bright rear end? I'd really like to read where it says that.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>> AKA: "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BACK SEAT BADGES"
>>
>> p.s. What do you call the co-pilot in a B-17 that is flying in
>> Wavered Airspace? A required crew member?
>> What do you call Ron's son flying in the backseat of a YAK-52?
>> Something other than a required crew member?
>> If the latter, how can be fly in there legally EVER? In ANY
>> kind of airspace? If he is a required crew
>> member outside of wavered airspace, how all of a sudden is he
>> NOT a required crew member IN wavered airspace.
>>
>> Does the Mission Commander of a C-130 have to ask the FAA for
>> permission for all his crew when flying in
>> wavered airspace? Ah... That would be no.
>>
>> Ya gotta love these interesting questions.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:12 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no. During the arrival show
> into
>> Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during
>> wavered airspace.
>>
>> You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a show..
>> You can guess how that will go... We will be asking the FAA's
>> permission on Wed to allow additional crew for the big mass formation
>> for 4 planes - mission safety being the reason, we HOPE they will
>> grant these. To your point, because we will have >50 planes in the
>> air, I am asking for a spotter in the backseat of the Flight Leads.
>>
>> Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. :)
>> before and after, but not during..
>>
>> So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday (
>> we will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course,
>
>> he can sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered
>> airspace is up..
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> --> <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,
>>> Insurance, fast card are all in order. My question is if my son, who
>
>>> hold a private license, can be in the backseat to shoot photos and
>>> use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Anybody have a CJ Near Raleigh, NC |
Dear Craig,
Happily send you a email about second-hand CJ-6,and we're a professional supplier
in aircraft parts for Chinese made aircraft, also including CJ-6/PT-6,more
details pls kindly contact us at your earlier convenience,thanks!
Awaiting for your earlier reply!
Best Regards,
Shirley [/b]
Read this topic online here:
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
No offense guys, but it sounds like a few here have no idea how old this argument
is, and how many attempts have been made to expand on the definition of required
crewmember (however valid the principle might be) to suit the situation.
Mike Hastings
PS The type certificate for the B17 requires 2 pilots...
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Thanks for all the discussion on the gib topic. My son wants his fast
card but needs to get his commercial / instrument / multi / c.f.i.
done in the next 12 months first . Did not mean to piss anyone off but
would like to be with my son to explain the formation than leave him
on the ground. After 21,000 hours of military , corporate, and
airline I just don't have any urgent formation squares I need filling
personally. 12 more years of airline flying makes flying the CJ a
great relief from the corporate madness. Never been to OSH so there
is much to see with him and soak up some of his newcomer awe to
refresh mine.
ron
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