Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:48 AM - Re: REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY (Tom Elliott)
2. 10:21 AM - Re: REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY (David McGirt)
3. 01:39 PM - West Bend Fuel (Cpayne)
4. 01:47 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 01:55 PM - Re: West Bend Fuel (bu131@swbell.net)
6. 03:33 PM - (Robert Schwartz)
7. 03:57 PM - Re: (Robert Langford)
8. 04:36 PM - Re: West Bend Fuel (Forrest Johnson)
9. 05:05 PM - Re: Required crewmember (John Cox)
10. 05:24 PM - Re: West Bend Fuel (Dave \)
11. 06:49 PM - Re: West Bend Fuel (Jim Griffin)
12. 06:56 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Terry Lewis)
13. 07:26 PM - CJ6 aircraft parts PROMOTION (shirleytan)
14. 08:19 PM - second-hand cj6 to sell (shirleytan)
15. 08:19 PM - second-hand cj6 to sell (shirleytan)
16. 08:20 PM - second-hand cj6 to sell (shirleytan)
17. 08:35 PM - Re: Required crewmember (cjpilot710@aol.com)
18. 10:16 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Roger Baker)
19. 10:45 PM - Re: Required crewmember (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY |
Note the link did not come through completely if you click on it you then
need to add "ing.pdf"
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:40 PM
Subject: Yak-List: REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY
REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY
The EAA and the organizers of Air venture 2008 have provided The RPA with a
unique opportunity to showcase our aircraft, our pilots and our "Culture of
Excellence" throughout the week at Oshkosh. The centerpiece of our efforts
will be the 50 aircraft mass formation fly-over. While safety is our primary
mission, it is critically important for the RPA participants to exceed the
standards of performance seen in others.
This has been an collaboration which has required great effort to
complete. Each participant should become familiar with it prior to arrival
at West Bend or Oshkosh. It is a living document and some changes may be
made after arrival in order to adapt to field conditions, weather or EAA Air
Boss requirements.
The Power Point presentation and the briefing video will be distributed to
the Regional Directors and posted on the website after Air Venture 2008.
This will become the standard for future events.
Link to file:
http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Briefing.pdf
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
6:08 PM
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY |
Thanks Tom,
Here it is again =AD see if this is better:
http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Briefing.pdf
On 7/22/08 12:42 PM, "Tom Elliott" <N13472@aol.com> wrote:
> Note the link did not come through completely if you click on it you then
need
> to add "ing.pdf"
>
> Tom Elliott
> CJ-6A NX63727
> 702-595-2680
>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:40 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY
>>
>>
>>
>>> REDSTAR PILOTS ASSOCIATION CJ-6 50TH ANNIVERSARY
>>
>> The EAA and the organizers of Air venture 2008 have provided The RPA wi
th a
>> unique opportunity to showcase our aircraft, our pilots and our =B3Cultur
e of
>> Excellence=B2 throughout the week at Oshkosh. The centerpiece of our effo
rts
>> will be the 50 aircraft mass formation fly-over. While safety is our pr
imary
>> mission, it is critically important for the RPA participants to exceed
the
>> standards of performance seen in others.
>>
>> This has been an collaboration which has required great effort to
>> complete. Each participant should become familiar with it prior to arri
val
>> at West Bend or Oshkosh. It is a living document and some changes may b
e
>> made after arrival in order to adapt to field conditions, weather or EA
A Air
>> Boss requirements.
>>
>> The Power Point presentation and the briefing video will be distributed
to
>> the Regional Directors and posted on the website after Air Venture 2008
.
>> This will become the standard for future events.
>>
>> Link to file:
>>
>> http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Briefing.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> <http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Brief>
>> cs.com <http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Brief>
> matronics.com/contribution <http://www.mcgirt.net/OSH08/OSH08_Flight_Brie
f>
>
> Checked 1559 - Release Date: 7/17/2008 6:08 PM
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Well, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retail price with NO discount.
Reason given was that we will be using more staff for frequent refueling
vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this also means more transactions,
etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we come in is enough. Something about
the 2% credit card transaction fee, etc. Besides, we will have the use of
their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner on Thursday and Friday as long as an incoming
jet does not need it. the FBO owner also has an operation at Fon du lac where
there certainly will be a large captive audience.
OTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invited us over for free lunch
on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM will be the T-28's at the
other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are the reason why we are not staging
there. I understood their concerns about crowded airspace from time to time
but not their claim that we would overwhelm the field's facilities. Burrows
aviation and the Resturant staff dispute this contention.
I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28 brethern who were
"vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably chastised already
for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go ahead and plan a courtesy
call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any wingmen for this hop?
Craig Payne
Message 4
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
David,
This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
(specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot
of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to
say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been
quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required
flight crew.
When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for
something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now
NOT "a required crew member"?
I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
Next.
Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
Pappy!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
" e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified
in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively
participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.)
will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by
this waiver. "
On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
>
> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>
> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>
> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
> certified.
>
> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>
> Just curious.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
etc.
> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
> only
> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>
> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
> GIB for airshow orientation.
>
> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>
> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>
> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
> formation safety pilot.
>
> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
> briefing.
>
> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>
> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated),
> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
> camera men, ETC ETC.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
> Fantasy Football today
> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: West Bend Fuel |
------Original Message------
From: Cpayne
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Jul 22, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel
Well, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retail price with NO discount.
Reason given was that we will be using more staff for frequent refueling
vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this also means more transactions,
etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we come in is enough. Something about
the 2% credit card transaction fee, etc. Besides, we will have the use of
their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner on Thursday and Friday as long as an incoming
jet does not need it. the FBO owner also has an operation at Fon du lac where
there certainly will be a large captive audience.
OTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invited us over for free lunch
on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM will be the T-28's at the
other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are the reason why we are not staging
there. I understood their concerns about crowded airspace from time to time
but not their claim that we would overwhelm the field's facilities. Burrows
aviation and the Resturant staff dispute this contention.
I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28 brethern who were
"vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably chastised already
for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go ahead and plan a courtesy
call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any wingmen for this hop?
Craig Payne
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 6
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|
Hey Guys !=0AIm planning to fly my Yak 52 to OSH for the first time this-
year. I understand that there is some special-festivities this year and
-show center parking for the CJ and YAK community. Is-that correct? Im
a RED STAR member and would hope-to be able to have static dispaly parkin
g with the rest at the rock star location instead of the-mud pasture that
is the usual YAK locaiton.-Do I need a window sign to park show center w
ith the others? =0AThis is a sensitive issue to me, as I have-battled thi
s parkign issue for my L-29 Delfin Jet every year.-- I pay 2,500 to $3,
000 in fuel to come and I am offered virtually every year parking that is o
utside the the area that the vistors are allowed to go and thus nobody is a
ble to look at my aircraft. That a lot of money to spend to-find yourself
totally removed from the activites.---I guess that the T-6 and T-28
community just need more and more parking. =0A-=0AEmail: L29delfin@yahoo.
com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "bu131@swbell.net" <b
u131@swbell.net>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, July 22, 200
8 3:52:32 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel=0A=0A--> Yak-List mess
age posted by: bu131@swbell.net=0A=0A=0A------Original Message------=0AFrom
: Cpayne=0ASender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com=0ATo: yak-list=0ARep
lyTo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Jul 22, 2008 3:36 PM=0ASubject: Yak-Li
ail.com>=0A=0AWell, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retai
l price with NO discount. Reason given was that we will be using more staff
for frequent refueling vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this al
so means more transactions, etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we com
e in is enough. Something about the 2% credit card transaction fee, etc. Be
sides, we will have the use of their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner on Thursday
and Friday as long as an incoming jet does not need it. the FBO owner also
has an operation at Fon du lac where there certainly will be a large capti
ve audience.=0A=0AOTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invit
ed us over for free lunch on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM
will be the T-28's at the other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are t
he reason why we are not staging there. I understood their concerns about c
rowded airspace from time to time but not their claim that we would overwhe
lm the field's facilities. Burrows aviation and the Resturant staff dispute
this contention.=0A=0AI must report that we were specifically dis-invited
by our T-28 brethern who were "vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having
been suitably chastised already for suggesting use of the field, I might as
well go ahead and plan a courtesy call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I
get any wingmen for this hop?=0A=0ACraig Payne=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ASe
=============0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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Don't know what events you have attended, However the YAK and CJs for
the most part are given great parking, the exception was Sun N Fun this
year due the rain everyone suffered. On arrival display a sigh Approx. 8
1/2 x 11 to the ground handler the sign should indicate in bold letters,
WB /S. this will indicate that you are a Warbird & that you will be on
static display. You will then be directed to the proper location.
Looking forward to seeing you there.
Robert Langford
2008 Redstar, Ground Ops. Cord.
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 5:27 PM
Hey Guys !
Im planning to fly my Yak 52 to OSH for the first time this year. I
understand that there is some special festivities this year and show
center parking for the CJ and YAK community. Is that correct? Im a RED
STAR member and would hope to be able to have static dispaly parking
with the rest at the rock star location instead of the mud pasture that
is the usual YAK locaiton. Do I need a window sign to park show center
with the others?
This is a sensitive issue to me, as I have battled this parkign issue
for my L-29 Delfin Jet every year. I pay 2,500 to $3,000 in fuel to
come and I am offered virtually every year parking that is outside the
the area that the vistors are allowed to go and thus nobody is able to
look at my aircraft. That a lot of money to spend to find yourself
totally removed from the activites. I guess that the T-6 and T-28
community just need more and more parking.
Email: L29delfin@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: "bu131@swbell.net" <bu131@swbell.net>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:52:32 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel
------Original Message------
From: Cpayne
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
To: yak-list
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Jul 22, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel
Well, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retail price
with NO discount. Reason given was that we will be using more staff for
frequent refueling vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this also
means more transactions, etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we
come in is enough. Something about the 2% credit card transaction fee,
etc. Besides, we will have the use of their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner
on Thursday and Friday as long as an incoming jet does not need it. the
FBO owner also has an operation at Fon du lac where there certainly will
be a large captive audience.
OTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invited us over
for free lunch on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM will be
the T-28's at the other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are the
reason why we are not staging there. I understood their concerns about
crowded
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
7/22/2008 4:05 PM
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: West Bend Fuel |
I,m in. I think we need to show up in full force. How about a flour (
flower) drop. Flowers more fit what they are.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cpayne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel
>
> Well, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retail price with
> NO discount. Reason given was that we will be using more staff for
> frequent refueling vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this also
> means more transactions, etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we come
> in is enough. Something about the 2% credit card transaction fee, etc.
> Besides, we will have the use of their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner on
> Thursday and Friday as long as an incoming jet does not need it. the FBO
> owner also has an operation at Fon du lac where there certainly will be a
> large captive audience.
>
> OTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invited us over for
> free lunch on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM will be the
> T-28's at the other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are the reason
> why we are not staging there. I understood their concerns about crowded
> airspace from time to time but not their claim that we would overwhelm the
> field's facilities. Burrows aviation and the Resturant staff dispute this
> contention.
>
> I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28 brethern
> who were "vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably
> chastised already for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go
> ahead and plan a courtesy call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any
> wingmen for this hop?
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the
conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"
needs some enlightenment.
You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.
However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually
agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.
Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved
waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations of the
aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are usually not
listed in those written stipulations.
There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods
not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed,
altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of
sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires
Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their
Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point. Ramstein AFB
resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.
Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.
John Cox
ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with
my signature on them)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
David,
This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
(specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot
of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to
say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been
quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required
flight crew.
When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for
something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now
NOT "a required crew member"?
I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
Next.
Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
Pappy!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
" e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified
in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively
participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.)
will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by
this waiver. "
On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
>
> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>
> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>
> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
> certified.
>
> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>
> Just curious.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
etc.
> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
> only
> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>
> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
> GIB for airshow orientation.
>
> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>
> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>
> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
> formation safety pilot.
>
> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
> briefing.
>
> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>
> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated),
> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
> camera men, ETC ETC.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
> Fantasy Football today
> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: West Bend Fuel |
I feel like the redheaded step child. That is twice in 30 days that members
of the NATA group have declined to allow me to participate in a gathering
with NAA aircraft. Before I purchased my TD, I looked hard at a T-6, but
the operating costs just didn't make sense. I take comfort in the fact that
one of my T-6 buddies called me a profit for choosing a Yak over a Texan.
Especially when I flew a hop with him recently and he put 42 gallons of gas
in his crate, compared to my 17 following an hour of flight. By the way, I
am in on the trip to Burrows. They can return the favor, at 50 gallons an
hour, by flying over to West Bend and visiting us. I say we invite them
down. Spirit of dtente and the like.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cpayne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel
>
> Well, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retail price with
> NO discount. Reason given was that we will be using more staff for
> frequent refueling vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this also
> means more transactions, etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we come
> in is enough. Something about the 2% credit card transaction fee, etc.
> Besides, we will have the use of their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner on
> Thursday and Friday as long as an incoming jet does not need it. the FBO
> owner also has an operation at Fon du lac where there certainly will be a
> large captive audience.
>
> OTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invited us over for
> free lunch on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM will be the
> T-28's at the other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are the reason
> why we are not staging there. I understood their concerns about crowded
> airspace from time to time but not their claim that we would overwhelm the
> field's facilities. Burrows aviation and the Resturant staff dispute this
> contention.
>
> I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28 brethern
> who were "vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably
> chastised already for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go
> ahead and plan a courtesy call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any
> wingmen for this hop?
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: West Bend Fuel |
Don't feel picked on , Craig. If they wanted company, they would stay in
Dubuque with the rest of the official NATA members in their T-6s. The
different air speeds can make some problems they don't want to deal with.
If the Yakksters showed up there, they would have given up all the
advantages of being at the official NATA fly in for nothing.
Jim Griffin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cpayne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Yak-List: West Bend Fuel
>
> Well, I finally have a quote from the FBO at ETB, $5.69 retail price with
> NO discount. Reason given was that we will be using more staff for
> frequent refueling vs transit traffic that takes larger loads, this also
> means more transactions, etc. even though 1 scan of the card when we come
> in is enough. Something about the 2% credit card transaction fee, etc.
> Besides, we will have the use of their 4-passenger Sunfire loaner on
> Thursday and Friday as long as an incoming jet does not need it. the FBO
> owner also has an operation at Fon du lac where there certainly will be a
> large captive audience.
>
> OTOH,the Burrows aviation FBO at Sheboygan(SBM) has invited us over for
> free lunch on the weekend and $5.20 fuel. Also visiting SBM will be the
> T-28's at the other FBO. They were there first at SBM and are the reason
> why we are not staging there. I understood their concerns about crowded
> airspace from time to time but not their claim that we would overwhelm the
> field's facilities. Burrows aviation and the Resturant staff dispute this
> contention.
>
> I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28 brethern
> who were "vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably
> chastised already for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go
> ahead and plan a courtesy call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any
> wingmen for this hop?
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Hi,
Does anyone want to discuss the need for flight suits at this time :>). Or
should we save it for a less busy time ?
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the
> conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"
> needs some enlightenment.
>
> You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.
> However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually
> agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.
> Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved
> waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations of the
> aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are usually not
> listed in those written stipulations.
>
> There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods
> not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed,
> altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of
> sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires
> Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their
> Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point. Ramstein AFB
> resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.
>
> Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.
>
> John Cox
> ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with
> my signature on them)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> David,
>
> This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
> (specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot
> of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to
> say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
> Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
> back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been
> quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required
> flight crew.
>
> When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for
> something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now
> NOT "a required crew member"?
>
> I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
> manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
> Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
>
> Next.
>
> Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
> specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
> issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
> with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
> could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
>
> And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
> question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
> Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
> have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
> Pappy!
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
> " e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified
> in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively
> participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.)
> will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by
> this waiver. "
>
>
> On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
> 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> --> Point,
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>
>>
>> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
>> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
>> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>>
>> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>>
>> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
>> certified.
>>
>> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
>> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
>> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>>
>> Just curious.
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> cjpilot710@aol.com
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
> etc.
>> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
>> only
>> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>>
>> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
>> GIB for airshow orientation.
>>
>> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>>
>> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>>
>> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
>> formation safety pilot.
>>
>> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
>
>> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
>> briefing.
>>
>> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
>> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>>
>> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
>
>> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
>> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
>> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated),
>
>> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
>> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
>> camera men, ETC ETC.
>>
>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
>> Fantasy Football today
>> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | CJ6 aircraft parts PROMOTION |
below is our hot offer for CJ-6 parts, all is new, and we also have second-hand
cj6 to sell, pls contact us for more information:
tanyanfang(a)fy-ic.com
skype:shirleytan1020
Part Number
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H2-0310-19/1 bolt
QSF-6A
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LC-2
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ZZ35
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500X150
400x150
GR8 (thermocouple)
[/b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194474#194474
Message 14
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| Subject: | second-hand cj6 to sell |
we have some second-hand CJ6/PT6 to sell, which all with good condition, pls contact
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skype: shirleytan1020
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194484#194484
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2476_211.jpg
Message 15
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| Subject: | second-hand cj6 to sell |
we have some second-hand CJ6/PT6 to sell, which all with good condition, pls contact
us for more information once you need.
And we also provide aircraft parts for Chinese made aircraft:CJ-6/PT-6, Y-5/AN-2,
Y-7/An-24, Y-8/An-12, Y-10, Y-12, Z-9, K-8MA60
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skype: shirleytan1020
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194485#194485
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2476_111.jpg
Message 16
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| Subject: | second-hand cj6 to sell |
we have some second-hand CJ6/PT6 to sell, which all with good condition, pls contact
us for more information once you need.
And we also provide aircraft parts for Chinese made aircraft:CJ-6/PT-6, Y-5/AN-2,
Y-7/An-24, Y-8/An-12, Y-10, Y-12, Z-9, K-8MA60
tanyanfang(a)fy-ic.com
skype: shirleytan1020
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194486#194486
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2476_123.jpg
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
Pappy!
Mark
Geee. Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type rating? No,
just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice with all airlines and
Part 121)
Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP? No just the PIC (Part 121 &
exception if over 8 hours)
Do both pilots of that same 747 require a 1 class flight physical? No, just
the PIC(Part 121)
That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a very long
time.
Now you can have a type rating without a ATP? Yes. AAMOF I know of several
private pilots with B-25 type ratings.
Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private, commercial, or
ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.
And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE: not "Flight
Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace only the PIC is required
to have a FAST card which is the only place a FAST card is any good, no
matter what airplane he is flying.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Jim....just to keep the record straight. Both pilots on a 747-400
(required crew) DO have to have a type rating. When I first started
flying the 47-400 in the early 1990's, new F/O's were required to get
a type rating in the left seat. By the time I retired off the
airplane in 2003, as a sop to the airlines to save money, the FAA had
bought into a thing called an SIC Type Rating.....which is sort of a
type rating but limited to second in command.
This SIC 'thing' is still 'grandfathered' in international
operations.....but, the real rule for ICAO and EASA airspace is that,
for an airplane requiring two pilots and a type rating, BOTH pilots
shall have an unrestricted type rating.
FYI
Roger Baker__________________________________________
On Jul 22, 2008, at 8:32 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
> And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have
> another
> question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
> Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot
> would
> have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
> Pappy!
>
> Mark
> Geee. Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type
> rating? No, just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice
> with all airlines and Part 121)
> Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP? No just the PIC
> (Part 121 & exception if over 8 hours)
> Do both pilots of that same 747 require a 1 class flight physical?
> No, just the PIC(Part 121)
> That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a
> very long time.
> Now you can have a type rating without a ATP? Yes. AAMOF I know
> of several private pilots with B-25 type ratings.
> Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private,
> commercial, or ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.
>
> And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE: not
> "Flight Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace only
> the PIC is required to have a FAST card which is the only place a
> FAST card is any good, no matter what airplane he is flying.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
> Fantasy Football today.
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
In a message dated 7/23/2008 1:18:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
f4ffm2@adelphia.net writes:
You may be correct about that, since I don't read those regs anymore. I was
always under the impression the only reason F/O got typed was because of the
requirement that a rated pilot be at the controls at all times, and with
flights over 8 hrs, needing a relief pilot, that's why it was done at all.
Which airline did you fly for?
Jim
Jim....just to keep the record straight. Both pilots on a 747-400 (required
crew) DO have to have a type rating. When I first started flying the 47-400
in the early 1990's, new F/O's were required to get a type rating in the
left seat. By the time I retired off the airplane in 2003, as a sop to the
airlines to save money, the FAA had bought into a thing called an SIC Type
Rating.....which is sort of a type rating but limited to second in command.
This SIC 'thing' is still 'grandfathered' in international
operations.....but, the real rule for ICAO and EASA airspace is that, for an airplane
requiring two pilots and a type rating, BOTH pilots shall have an unrestricted
type
rating.
FYI
Roger Baker__________________________________________
On Jul 22, 2008, at 8:32 PM, _cjpilot710@aol.com_ (mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com)
wrote:
In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_mark.bitterlich@navy.mil_ (mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil) writes:
And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
Pappy!
Mark
Geee. Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type rating? No,
just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice with all airlines and
Part 121)
Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP? No just the PIC (Part 121 &
exception if over 8 hours)
Do both pilots of that same 747 require a 1 class flight physical? No, just
the PIC(Part 121)
That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a very long
time.
Now you can have a type rating without a ATP? Yes. AAMOF I know of several
private pilots with B-25 type ratings.
Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private, commercial, or
ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.
And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE: not "Flight
Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace only the PIC is required
to have a FAST card which is the only place a FAST card is any good, no
matter what airplane he is flying.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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