Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Re: Required crewmember (steve and donna hanshew)
2. 09:03 AM - Re: Required crewmember (Kurt Howerton)
3. 09:35 AM - Re: Required crewmember (david@mcgirt.net)
4. 09:52 AM - Re: Required crewmember (Herb Coussons)
5. 09:53 AM - Re: Required crewmember (Herb Coussons)
6. 10:07 AM - SBM (Barry Hancock)
7. 10:58 AM - Re: SBM (Robert Langford)
8. 04:04 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 04:05 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 04:26 PM - Re: Required crewmember (David McGirt)
11. 04:29 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 05:27 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 06:28 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Robert Langford)
14. 07:15 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Roger Kemp MD)
15. 08:15 PM - Re: Required crewmember (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
awesome.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Lewis" <talew@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> Hi,
> Does anyone want to discuss the need for flight suits at this time :>). Or
> should we save it for a less busy time ?
> Terry Lewis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
>>
>> Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the
>> conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"
>> needs some enlightenment.
>>
>> You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.
>> However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually
>> agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.
>> Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved
>> waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations of the
>> aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are usually not
>> listed in those written stipulations.
>>
>> There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods
>> not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed,
>> altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of
>> sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires
>> Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their
>> Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point. Ramstein AFB
>> resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.
>>
>> Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.
>>
>> John Cox
>> ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with
>> my signature on them)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
>> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> David,
>>
>> This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
>> (specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot
>> of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to
>> say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
>> Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
>> back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been
>> quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required
>> flight crew.
>>
>> When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for
>> something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now
>> NOT "a required crew member"?
>>
>> I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
>> manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
>> Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
>>
>> Next.
>>
>> Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
>> specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
>> issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
>> with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
>> could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
>>
>> And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
>> question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
>> Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
>> have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
>> Pappy!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>>
>> " e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified
>> in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively
>> participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.)
>> will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by
>> this waiver. "
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
>> 64E"
>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>
>>> --> Point,
>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
>>> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
>>> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>>>
>>> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>>>
>>> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
>>> certified.
>>>
>>> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
>>> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
>>> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>>>
>>> Just curious.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>> cjpilot710@aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>>
>>> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
>> etc.
>>> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
>>> only
>>> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>>>
>>> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
>>> GIB for airshow orientation.
>>>
>>> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>>>
>>> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>>>
>>> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
>>> formation safety pilot.
>>>
>>> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
>>
>>> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
>>> briefing.
>>>
>>> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
>>> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>>>
>>> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
>>
>>> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
>>> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
>>> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated),
>>
>>> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
>>> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
>>> camera men, ETC ETC.
>>>
>>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
>>> Fantasy Football today
>>> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Anybody know if this will take place during the show:
Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...
http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html
If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.
--
Kurt Howerton
N923YK
http://cj6.scitechsys.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Happens at 8am in the morning.. Show starts at 1pm..
------Original Message------
From: Kurt Howerton
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Jul 23, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Anybody know if this will take place during the show:
Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...
http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html
If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.
--
Kurt Howerton
N923YK
http://cj6.scitechsys.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
Win a ride in the practice session - not the air show.
Herb
On Jul 23, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Kurt Howerton wrote:
>
> Anybody know if this will take place during the show:
>
> Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...
>
> http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html
>
> If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.
> --
> Kurt Howerton
> N923YK
> http://cj6.scitechsys.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
No different than the winner of the DC 3 ride last year which was not
part of the airshow.
Herb
On Jul 23, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Kurt Howerton wrote:
>
> Anybody know if this will take place during the show:
>
> Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...
>
> http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html
>
> If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.
> --
> Kurt Howerton
> N923YK
> http://cj6.scitechsys.com
>
>
Message 6
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On Jul 22, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28
> brethern who were
> "vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably
> chastised already
> for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go ahead and plan
> a courtesy
> call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any wingmen for this hop?
>
> Craig Payne
If they are going to play that game I suggest a few large formation
passes to say hello.
Barry
Message 7
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I suggest we leave well enough alone! What goes around, comes around.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:04 PM
Subject: Yak-List: SBM
On Jul 22, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
I must report that we were specifically dis-invited by our T-28
brethern who were
"vehemently opposed" to our presence. Having been suitably chastised
already
for suggesting use of the field, I might as well go ahead and plan a
courtesy
call to Burrows over the weekend. Can I get any wingmen for this
hop?
Craig Payne
If they are going to play that game I suggest a few large formation
passes to say hello.
Barry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
7/23/2008 6:55 AM
Message 8
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
John, when an expert speaks. I listen. I am not an expert on wavers by
any means. In fact, I have seen the FAA be very prejudicial when
issuing them, so it is clear that just about anything goes when it comes
to the FAA.
A few people have sent replies to what I was trying to say that had
nothing to do with what I was TRYING TO SAY! Thus I found myself on the
defensive with things that I was not trying to say to begin with!
Never the less, I accept your corrections and your expertise for what
they are, and thanks for posting them!
Now let me try.... one last time ..... to explain what my question
were.
I have actually tried to make only two points. Here they are:
One was that I do not believe that there is an official FAA document
anywhere that uses the term "FAST" in it, and that includes Waivers.
Many disagreed. I asked for a copy. I got a copy, but not about
anything to do with FAST. I could be wrong. If I am, I'd like to see
it in writing.
The other dealt with terminology, but the darn thing has gotten so far
out into left field that it is getting harder and harder to get back to
my original question! For example... I never once, not ever, wanted,
desired, suggested or was asking to sneak ANYONE into the back seat of
an airplane for an airshow. That all came from OTHER people talking,
not me.
Let me repeat. I have no desire or inclination to figure out a way to
get someone that should not be there into the back seat of an airplane
participating in an airshow.
Now, that said......
What I was trying to talk about, and it seems just about everybody
misunderstood, was that some Experimental Exhibition Aircraft have
written operating limitations that say that the only people that can fly
IN them, are "Required Crew Members". Now just forget all about
airshows for a minute. I have seen that exact operating limitation
written for a YAK-52 with my very eyes. That same YAK-52 carries people
flying in it all the time.
So here is where Airshows came into the question.
If YAK-52 owners fly people in the backseat of their aircraft with this
very same operating condition (limitation) written into their specific
aircraft FAA operating limitations. Then they must somehow have figured
out a way to call that guy in back, "a Required Crew Member".
Now the same airplane goes to an airshow and the people say: You can
not have anyone else in the aircraft unless they are a Required Crew
Member.
Joe Schmuckatelli flew into the field in the backseat of the YAK-52 and
no one said a WORD about it. So does this mean he was a "Required Crew
Member when he arrived, but come the time of the airshow, he no longer
was a Required Crew Member? I personally do not know, but it seems to
make no sense to me.
As you can see, I am not trying to put someone in the back seat for an
Airshow. I am trying to understand how when you flew everywhere else
BUT an airshow, ANYONE in the backseat can be referred to as a required
crew member. But arrive in Wavered Airspace, and now what determines
what a Required Crew Member changes? Is that how it works?
That's the question. That is what I am trying to get an answer to.
That and the FAA ever saying that anyone had to have a FAST card to do
something. FAA mind you.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the
conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"
needs some enlightenment.
You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.
However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually
agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.
Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved
waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations of the
aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are usually not
listed in those written stipulations.
There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods
not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed,
altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of
sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires
Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their
Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point. Ramstein AFB
resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.
Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.
John Cox
ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with
my signature on them)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
David,
This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
(specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot
of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to
say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been
quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required
flight crew.
When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for
something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now
NOT "a required crew member"?
I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
Next.
Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
Pappy!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
" e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified
in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively
participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.)
will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by
this waiver. "
On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
>
> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>
> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>
> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
> certified.
>
> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>
> Just curious.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
etc.
> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
> only
> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>
> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
> GIB for airshow orientation.
>
> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>
> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>
> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
> formation safety pilot.
>
> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
> briefing.
>
> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>
> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated),
> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
> camera men, ETC ETC.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
> Fantasy Football today
> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
Don't get parachutes for formation flight.
Good one Terry.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
Hi,
Does anyone want to discuss the need for flight suits at this time :>).
Or should we save it for a less busy time ?
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the
> conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"
> needs some enlightenment.
>
> You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.
> However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually
> agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.
> Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an
> approved waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations
> of the aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are
> usually not listed in those written stipulations.
>
> There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during
> periods not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for
> airspeed, altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any
> reasoning of sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook".
> ICAS requires Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines
> under their Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point.
> Ramstein AFB resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.
>
> Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.
>
> John Cox
> ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers
> with my signature on them)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> David,
>
> This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
> (specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a
> lot of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes
> on to
> say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
> Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
> back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just
> been quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed
> required flight crew.
>
> When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver
> for something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB
> is now NOT "a required crew member"?
>
> I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
> manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
> Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
>
> Next.
>
> Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
> specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
> issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
> with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
> could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
>
> And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have
> another question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so,
> then Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot
> would have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look
> out Pappy!
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
> " e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
> (specified in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons
> actively participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt
> persons, etc.) will be carried on any aircraft engaged in
> demonstrations authorized by this waiver. "
>
>
> On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
> 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> --> Point,
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>
>>
>> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
>> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
>> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>>
>> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>>
>> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
>> certified.
>>
>> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
>> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
>> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>>
>> Just curious.
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> cjpilot710@aol.com
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
> etc.
>> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
>> only
>> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>>
>> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
>> GIB for airshow orientation.
>>
>> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>>
>> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>>
>> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
>> formation safety pilot.
>>
>> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is
>> cleared
>
>> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
>> briefing.
>>
>> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
>> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>>
>> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan
>> to
>
>> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
>> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
>> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST
>> rated),
>
>> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
>> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
>> camera men, ETC ETC.
>>
>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
>> Fantasy Football today
>> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
To your one point Mark -
WAIVERS/AUTHORIZATIONS - FAA Form 7711-1
"7. Pilots who wish to conduct non-aerobatic formation flight in waivered
airspace must possess a valid industry formation training and evaluation
credential acceptable to the FAA."
> One was that I do not believe that there is an official FAA document
> anywhere that uses the term "FAST" in it, and that includes Waivers.
> Many disagreed. I asked for a copy. I got a copy, but not about
> anything to do with FAST. I could be wrong. If I am, I'd like to see
> it in writing.
Your other questions on Require crew - too much effort for my pee brain.. :)
Interesting exercise though
David
Message 11
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
Actually Pappy, you are quoting FAA Regs. Type Ratings, Medical
Catagories, Part 121, everything you refer to is an FAA regulation in
one way or the other. It seems that you believe FAA Regs and FAST
cards both operate under the same canopy of common sense. I.E., They
both have the same "mother" per se. Factually, that simply is not the
case. You can not take a requirement for a FAST card and then assume it
carries with it the same logic that the FAA applies to all of its rules
and regulations. I actually do not think you are correct about
everything you referenced regarding FAA regs by the way, but that is
BESIDE THE POINT.
The FAST card is not issued by the FAA. The FAA has nothing to do with
FAST cards. Period. That said, the FAA does not convey special
priviledges to any pilot on this planet unless they agree to do so in
writing in the form of a rule, regulation, or notice. None of which has
been forthcoming in this discussion.
The Statement made to ME was this: "ANY PILOT FLYING IN ANY AIRCRAFT IN
WAVERED AIRSPACE HAS TO HAVE A FAST CARD."
This statement was made in reference to whether a person in the back
could be in the aircraft at an airshow. Thus, what I was TOLD was...you
could have two pilots in a YAK-52, and it would be legit only if BOTH of
them had FAST CARDS, and then only under certain conditions. When I
asked why this was, the answer I got back was that ANY PILOT FLYING IN
ANY AIRCRAFT HAD TO HAVE A FAST CARD. Hey, I did not make these words
up, that was what was passed to me right here in River City.
Thus, if you have two pilots in a B-24 and both of them are "Required
Crew", and both have access to flight controls, it stands to reason that
the same rule would apply to BOTH of them... Regardless of FAA logic on
their rules and regs.
I repeat BOTH of them would SEEM to be required to have a FAST card.
And it makes sense too when you come to think about it. If you have any
aircraft in formation, and that aircraft has two pilots in it, both with
access to the flight controls, then both of them should be FAST rated in
case the other for some reason can no longer fly the aircraft. For
safety purposes it makes perfect sense.
But, now you're telling me something different. You are saying that
only the Pilot in Command is required to have a FAST card while flying
in Wavered Airspace.
Hey, I am not making this up. Either what you say is right, or what the
other expert says is right. Which is it?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have
another
question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so,
then
Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His
co-pilot would
have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look
out
Pappy!
Mark
Geee. Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type rating?
No, just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice with all
airlines and Part 121) Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP?
No just the PIC (Part 121 & exception if over 8 hours) Do both pilots of
that same 747 require a 1 class flight physical? No, just the PIC(Part
121) That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a
very long time.
Now you can have a type rating without a ATP? Yes. AAMOF I know of
several private pilots with B-25 type ratings.
Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private,
commercial, or ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.
And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE: not
"Flight Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace only the PIC
is required to have a FAST card which is the only place a FAST card is
any good, no matter what airplane he is flying.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
Fantasy Football today
<http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
Ok Folks, here we go!
Look David, when I am wrong, I like to think I have enough character to
admit it. BUT WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE YET!
Nice try with the quote you sent... But.....
Please note: Taken from: FAA 8700.1 CHG 22 Chapter 48. Form 7711-1:
When a person applies for a waver, he does so using a 7711-2 as
explained below:
"Completion of the task results in the approval or disapproval of the
applicant's FAA Form 7711-2. If approval is granted, FAA Form 7711-1
with attached special provisions is issued to the applicant."
By the way, and of specific note, there is NO REFERENCE TO FORMATION
FLIGHT AT ALL IN A FORM 7710-2 !!! There also is no specific rule that
has to be wavered in order to allow formation flight. Any pilot in this
country can fly formation, in any airspace he wants to. Keep that
tidbit in mind please. Can you refer to any FAA rule or regulation that
says otherwise? I sure can not, but if you can find one, please let me
know.
This means that the words you just quoted below came from a specific
WAVER that was issued following the submission of a Form 7711-2.
Quoting from a specific Waver issued by the FAA does not make it an FAA
rule or policy. It is however an official FAA document. What it means is
that the FAA is WAVERING it's rules based on a certain APPLICATION.
WHAT FAA RULE GOT WAVERED THAT SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT FORMATION FLIGHT?
Umm... There is none. Again, a WAVER is an EXCEPTION TO THE RULES!
So to really put your quote in context, we need a copy of the
application (Form 7711-2) that goes along with that specific 7711-1 form
you quoted as well. Which, so far, is missing.
Here is a good example to what I am talking about. Does every aircraft
that flies in wavered airspace require an operating transponder with
mode C installed and working? Especially in formation? Well, no.. You
would not want that would you?
On the other hand, if you operate your aircraft in our WAVERED AIRSPACE
it sure as heck better be on and operating! That is because when the
original application (Form 7711-2) was sent in, the FAA was ASKED TO
MAKE IT A REQUIREMENT to operate in that WAVERED AIRSPACE (located at
New Bern NC)! The FAA took that right off the 7711-2, and put it right
on their 7711-1. Does this then mean that this specific 7711-1
REPRESENTS FAA RULES AND POLICY FOR ALL WAVERED AIRSPACE? No, it does
not. Just the one at EWN.
Now you refer to this quote: "7. Pilots who wish to conduct
non-aerobatic formation flight in wavered airspace must possess a valid
industry formation training and evaluation credential acceptable to the
FAA."
I'LL BET YOU APPLES TO ORANGES THAT WORDS TO THAT EFFECT WERE IN THE
ORIGINAL 7711-2 APPLICATION. I.E., THE FAA WAS ASKED TO PUT THAT
REQUIREMENT IN THERE AS A WAVER TO THEIR NORMAL RULES AND REGS. AS IN:
"SUCH A REQUIREMENT FOR FORMATION FLIGHT IS NOT NORMALLY REQUIRED, BUT
IT WILL BE IF YOU ASK FOR IT!".
So you come to me and show me an example of where the FAA gave you
exactly what you asked for in Form 7711-1 and then say: SEE HERE, FAA
POLICY.
Sorry no.
First, why did not someone just say: Ya gotta have a FAST card. Answer:
Because the FAA would not have approved that even if you put it in your
7711-2. In fact, the 7711-2 might have even said: "MUST HAVE FAST
CARD", but since the FAA refuses to recognize non governmental
credentials or qualifications that covers territory in their domain,
they allow you to say something like this INSTEAD: "must possess a
valid industry formation training and evaluation credential acceptable
to the FAA." NOW JUST HOW VAGUE IS THAT? That might be a FAST card,
and it also might be a military pilot designation. Whatcha think?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
To your one point Mark -
WAIVERS/AUTHORIZATIONS - FAA Form 7711-1
"7. Pilots who wish to conduct non-aerobatic formation flight in
waivered airspace must possess a valid industry formation training and
evaluation credential acceptable to the FAA."
> One was that I do not believe that there is an official FAA document
> anywhere that uses the term "FAST" in it, and that includes Waivers.
> Many disagreed. I asked for a copy. I got a copy, but not about
> anything to do with FAST. I could be wrong. If I am, I'd like to see
> it in writing.
Your other questions on Require crew - too much effort for my pee
brain.. :) Interesting exercise though
David
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
That has always been my understanding, Just happens that FAA deems a fast
card to meet that requirement.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McGirt" <david@mcgirt.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> To your one point Mark -
>
> WAIVERS/AUTHORIZATIONS - FAA Form 7711-1
>
> "7. Pilots who wish to conduct non-aerobatic formation flight in waivered
> airspace must possess a valid industry formation training and evaluation
> credential acceptable to the FAA."
>
>> One was that I do not believe that there is an official FAA document
>> anywhere that uses the term "FAST" in it, and that includes Waivers.
>> Many disagreed. I asked for a copy. I got a copy, but not about
>> anything to do with FAST. I could be wrong. If I am, I'd like to see
>> it in writing.
>
>
> Your other questions on Require crew - too much effort for my pee brain..
> :)
> Interesting exercise though
>
>
> David
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 6:55 AM
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Required crewmember |
What Air Force/ Army was it that I saw in a a 2 piece flight suit lately? It
was probably the Army. To nomex or not...at least on top that is!
Now how do you address half a nomex suit?
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve and donna
hanshew
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
<dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
awesome.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Lewis" <talew@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
> Hi,
> Does anyone want to discuss the need for flight suits at this time :>). Or
> should we save it for a less busy time ?
> Terry Lewis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>
>
>>
>> Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the
>> conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"
>> needs some enlightenment.
>>
>> You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.
>> However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually
>> agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.
>> Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved
>> waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations of the
>> aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are usually not
>> listed in those written stipulations.
>>
>> There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods
>> not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed,
>> altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of
>> sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires
>> Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their
>> Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point. Ramstein AFB
>> resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.
>>
>> Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.
>>
>> John Cox
>> ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with
>> my signature on them)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
>> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> David,
>>
>> This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers
>> (specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot
>> of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to
>> say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment.
>> Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in
>> back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been
>> quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required
>> flight crew.
>>
>> When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for
>> something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now
>> NOT "a required crew member"?
>>
>> I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we
>> manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the
>> Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.
>>
>> Next.
>>
>> Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a
>> specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the
>> issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do
>> with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you
>> could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.
>>
>> And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another
>> question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then
>> Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would
>> have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out
>> Pappy!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>
>>
>> " e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified
>> in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively
>> participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.)
>> will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by
>> this waiver. "
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
>> 64E"
>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>
>>> --> Point,
>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,
>>> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have
>>> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"
>>>
>>> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?
>>>
>>> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST
>>> certified.
>>>
>>> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly
>>> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY
>>> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.
>>>
>>> Just curious.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>> cjpilot710@aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember
>>>
>>> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc.
>> etc.
>>> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat
>>> only
>>> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.
>>>
>>> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as
>>> GIB for airshow orientation.
>>>
>>> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.
>>>
>>> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation
>>>
>>> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as
>>> formation safety pilot.
>>>
>>> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared
>>
>>> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the
>>> briefing.
>>>
>>> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or
>>> passenger as a required crew member for "safety".
>>>
>>> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to
>>
>>> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened
>>> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST
>>> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated),
>>
>>> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's
>>> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news
>>> camera men, ETC ETC.
>>>
>>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
>>> Fantasy Football today
>>> <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Required crewmember |
This is not done during the show or in wavered airspace.
In a message dated 7/23/2008 12:04:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
kurt@scitechsys.com writes:
Yak-List message posted by: Kurt Howerton <kurt@scitechsys.com>
Anybody know if this will take place during the show:
Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...
http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html
If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.
--
Kurt Howerton
N923YK
http://cj6.scitechsys.com
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
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