---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/24/08: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:54 AM - NOW: Dead Horse WAS: Required crewmember (Russ) 2. 07:09 AM - MSP Aquatenial Fly over (kingcj6@aol.com) 3. 01:33 PM - SBM, OSH, etc. (Jill Gernetzke) 4. 04:01 PM - Re: Required crewmember (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 5. 07:52 PM - !st Day (cjpilot710@aol.com) 6. 08:09 PM - Re: !st Day (Jim Selby) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:39 AM PST US From: "Russ" Subject: Yak-List: NOW: Dead Horse WAS: Required crewmember The smell of the caress is reaching KETB & KOSH as are some of the planes participating in our BIG SHOW! To quote a US President The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:37 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: MSP Aquatenial Fly over From: kingcj6@aol.com I'm in Minneapolis on business and was watching the downtown parade at 8:30 last night when a 4-ship of 52's passed over in a perfect diamond. Who provided the entertainment?? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:44 PM PST US From: Jill Gernetzke Subject: Yak-List: SBM, OSH, etc. Group, I wanted to wish all of you safe travels, tons of flying fun and a very memorable Oshkosh! I will be back at the shop and helping anyone in need throughout the week. (928-681-4400) Jill M-14P, Incorporated 4905 Flightline Drive Kingman, AZ 86401 -7417 (928)-681-4400 Fax(928)681-4404 www.m-14p.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:49 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" No comment. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:12 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember --> What Air Force/ Army was it that I saw in a a 2 piece flight suit lately? It was probably the Army. To nomex or not...at least on top that is! Now how do you address half a nomex suit? Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve and donna hanshew Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:08 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember awesome. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Lewis" Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember > > Hi, > Does anyone want to discuss the need for flight suits at this time :>). Or > should we save it for a less busy time ? > Terry Lewis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Cox" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:01 PM > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember > > >> >> Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the >> conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved" >> needs some enlightenment. >> >> You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want. >> However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually >> agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss. >> Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved >> waiver period is one of them. If the operating limitations of the >> aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved. GIBs are usually not >> listed in those written stipulations. >> >> There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods >> not under waiver. Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed, >> altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of >> sneaking passengers. The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires >> Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their >> Operations Inspector Manual. This is really a moot point. Ramstein AFB >> resolved this issue in the summer of 1987. >> >> Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition. >> >> John Cox >> ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with >> my signature on them) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, >> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E >> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:45 PM >> To: yak-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Required crewmember >> >> Point, MALS-14 64E" >> >> David, >> >> This quote: "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers >> (specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot >> of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to >> say: "can fly in this aircraft". So forget Airshows for a moment. >> Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"? If we do put a person in >> back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been >> quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required >> flight crew. >> >> When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for >> something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now >> NOT "a required crew member"? >> >> I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we >> manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule. However at the >> Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching. >> >> Next. >> >> Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a >> specific activity. However my request for a reference dealt with the >> issue that the FAA required FAST cards. Your quote has nothing to do >> with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context. If you >> could....... please send me the whole waiver off line. >> >> And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another >> question. Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it? If so, then >> Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard. His co-pilot would >> have to be too. See? Look how much we're learning here! Look out >> Pappy! >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt >> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:44 PM >> To: yak-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember >> >> >> " e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified >> in aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively >> participating in the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.) >> will be carried on any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by >> this waiver. " >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 >> 64E" >> wrote: >> >>> --> Point, >>> MALS-14 64E" >>> >>> >>> >>> You said: "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, >>> BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have >>> only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace" >>> >>> May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please? >>> >>> Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST >>> certified. >>> >>> Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly >>> in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft? Not just Pilot... But "FLY >>> INSIDE OF". Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section. >>> >>> Just curious. >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> cjpilot710@aol.com >>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:04 PM >>> To: yak-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Required crewmember >>> >>> The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc. >> etc. >>> etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat >>> only >>> - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace. >>> >>> This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as >>> GIB for airshow orientation. >>> >>> A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation. >>> >>> A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation >>> >>> Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as >>> formation safety pilot. >>> >>> Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared >> >>> individually by the FAA. Its done in person, and orally at the >>> briefing. >>> >>> You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or >>> passenger as a required crew member for "safety". >>> >>> After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to >> >>> fly the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened >>> to be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST >>> card. I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated), >> >>> and the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew. No VIPs, not the boss's >>> daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news >>> camera men, ETC ETC. >>> >>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse >>> Fantasy Football today >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:18 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: !st Day Seven aircraft on the ramp. EAA chapter facilities are nothing short of fantastic! Two flight checks most likely tomorrow. Both Leads. Plus one Lead refresher. 30% chance of showers tomorrow. We all had dinner at Applebee's which is right next door. Hotel is not elegant but above average. I flew up to OSH this morning for a quick look around. Our tent is in place. Table and chairs will go in on Saturday or Sunday. A supply of oil is on hand as well as some other stuff that we had shipped in. Pappy **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:52 PM PST US From: "Jim Selby" Subject: Re: Yak-List: !st Day Have a Awsome Trip Guys/Gals and be Safe... Best Regards The Selby's ----- Original Message ----- From: cjpilot710@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:47 PM Subject: Yak-List: !st Day Seven aircraft on the ramp. EAA chapter facilities are nothing short of fantastic! Two flight checks most likely tomorrow. Both Leads. Plus one Lead refresher. 30% chance of showers tomorrow. We all had dinner at Applebee's which is right next door. Hotel is not elegant but above average. I flew up to OSH this morning for a quick look around. Our tent is in place. Table and chairs will go in on Saturday or Sunday. A supply of oil is on hand as well as some other stuff that we had shipped in. Pappy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get fantasy football with free live scoring. 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