Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: OSH exhaust (David McGirt)
2. 07:03 AM - A solid example of flight and crew coordination in an emergency (Drew)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: A solid example of flight and crew coordination in an emergency (Roger Kemp MD)
4. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: OSH exhaust (Robert Langford)
5. 10:06 AM - Rolling G Limits (shinden33)
6. 10:31 AM - Re: Rolling G Limits (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 11:40 AM - (Yak Driver)
8. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: OSH exhaust (Jorgen Nielsen)
9. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: OSH exhaust (Mark Schrick)
10. 02:41 PM - +7g? (Andrew Love)
11. 04:30 PM - Re: +7g? (A. Dennis Savarese)
12. 04:54 PM - Re: Rolling G Limits (Joe Enzminger)
13. 04:54 PM - Need 52 Main Air Bottle (TXYak)
14. 05:22 PM - Re: Rolling G Limits (Walter Lannon)
15. 07:38 PM - The "50" (Barry Hancock)
16. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: Rolling G Limits (Peter K. Van Staagen)
17. 07:53 PM - Re: +7g? (Peter K. Van Staagen)
Message 1
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Which Yak are you flying Dale?
Great info!
David
On 8/5/08 11:10 PM, "Dale" <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> I found a inspection cover missing above my oil cooler. I also found several
> other Yaks had the same inspection cover missing when I looked at them. I was
> getting a lot of smoke and exhaust into my cockpit causing head aches after
> flying. It took me a long time to figured it out until I put in a smoke system
> and could see it. I purchased a digital meter from Aircraft spruce after I
> discovered the indicator on the business card gizmo does not work, and it was
> new. I was getting large doses of bad stuff. After fitting a new inspection
> plate and sealing around the front and rear of the oil cooler. there is a
> large space between the scoop and the and the front of the cooler where it
> also allows the exhaust to circumvent the cooler into the wing root into the
> cockpit low pressure area. In cruise I now have a 0 reading on my meter and I
> do get some gasses when running up with the window open and steep maneuvers
> like high glide angles for landing. You will also find exhaust g!
> asses coming up through the floor around the nose gear retract cylinder if
> not properly sealed. I used two zip ties for that.
>
> I would caution everyone to get rid of the old dot on a card and try a digital
> meter. At least borrow one from someone and fly once with it.
>
> Dale
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196819#196819
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | A solid example of flight and crew coordination in an emergency |
Folks,
This vid may have already made the rounds, but I think it's a good example of
coordination among a four ship recovering an emergency in the flight, and crew
coordination in the emergency aircraft. Everything from maintaining flight
member SA, providing aircraft to aircraft support / input, when to talk from the
backseat and when to keep mum, to some idea why our manual promotes the use
of position numbers over terms like "lead", a good vid to review all around...
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SUPERGT/3384/
Drew
You can also reach me at lacloudchaser@gmail.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | A solid example of flight and crew coordination in an emergency |
Drew,
There was no backseater involved. It was an F-16 in which the compressor ate
itself and fod'd the engine. He did a perfect SFO through weather saving a
valuable AF asset. The background conversation was on Victor.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: Yak-List: A solid example of flight and crew coordination in an
emergency
Folks,
This vid may have already made the rounds, but I think it's a good example
of coordination among a four ship recovering an emergency in the flight, and
crew coordination in the emergency aircraft. Everything from maintaining
flight member SA, providing aircraft to aircraft support / input, when to
talk from the backseat and when to keep mum, to some idea why our manual
promotes the use of position numbers over terms like "lead", a good vid to
review all around...
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SUPERGT/3384/
Drew
You can also reach me at lacloudchaser@gmail.com
Message 4
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The Instr. is the only way to have an accurate reading in the cockpit, have
owned one for a few years myself. I plug it into the outlet occasionally to
check for changes, such as recently reported by Steve Dawson. With cooler
weather not so far in the future we should all go heads up as we will be
doing run-up with the canopy at least partially closed. Not a good idea in
any YAK of any model. I have never had problem while in flight. Doesn't mean
that it cannot occur!!!!!!!!
Lefty
From: "David McGirt" <david@mcgirt.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: OSH exhaust
>
> Which Yak are you flying Dale?
>
> Great info!
>
> David
>
>
> On 8/5/08 11:10 PM, "Dale" <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I found a inspection cover missing above my oil cooler. I also found
>> several
>> other Yaks had the same inspection cover missing when I looked at them. I
>> was
>> getting a lot of smoke and exhaust into my cockpit causing head aches
>> after
>> flying. It took me a long time to figured it out until I put in a smoke
>> system
>> and could see it. I purchased a digital meter from Aircraft spruce after
>> I
>> discovered the indicator on the business card gizmo does not work, and it
>> was
>> new. I was getting large doses of bad stuff. After fitting a new
>> inspection
>> plate and sealing around the front and rear of the oil cooler. there is
>> a
>> large space between the scoop and the and the front of the cooler where
>> it
>> also allows the exhaust to circumvent the cooler into the wing root into
>> the
>> cockpit low pressure area. In cruise I now have a 0 reading on my meter
>> and I
>> do get some gasses when running up with the window open and steep
>> maneuvers
>> like high glide angles for landing. You will also find exhaust g!
>> asses coming up through the floor around the nose gear retract cylinder
>> if
>> not properly sealed. I used two zip ties for that.
>>
>> I would caution everyone to get rid of the old dot on a card and try a
>> digital
>> meter. At least borrow one from someone and fly once with it.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196819#196819
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 5:30 PM
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Rolling G Limits |
All,
Has anyone heard mention of asymmetric or rolling g limits on civilian aircraft. I've seen them with military aircraft but I have never heard mention of rolling g limitations for civilian aircraft until today. What's really disturbing is that FAR 23.349 states that structural requirements for certification only require that the airplane be built for rolling loads at 2/3 of symmetric G limit. http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/E6FD59161E5CCA9685256687006D10A2?OpenDocument
>From the look of this reg, US airplanes may have implied limit? Anyone have any
experience with rolling g limits on civil aircraft? More importantly for this
crew, does anyone have any gouge on rolling g limits for Yaks and CJs?
Scott
N8252
--------
The Defiant Company
www.thedefiantcompany.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196934#196934
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rolling G Limits |
Scott,
I am not aware of any published rolling G limitations for the Yak 52. That
doesn't mean that somewhere in the archives of this airplane's engineering
documentation there isn't one. I just have never seen one.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "shinden33" <shinden33@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:05 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Rolling G Limits
>
> All,
>
> Has anyone heard mention of asymmetric or rolling g limits on civilian
> aircraft. I've seen them with military aircraft but I have never heard
> mention of rolling g limitations for civilian aircraft until today.
> What's really disturbing is that FAR 23.349 states that structural
> requirements for certification only require that the airplane be built for
> rolling loads at 2/3 of symmetric G limit.
> http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/E6FD59161E5CCA9685256687006D10A2?OpenDocument
>>From the look of this reg, US airplanes may have implied limit? Anyone
>>have any experience with rolling g limits on civil aircraft? More
>>importantly for this crew, does anyone have any gouge on rolling g limits
>>for Yaks and CJs?
>
> Scott
> N8252
>
> --------
> The Defiant Company
> www.thedefiantcompany.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196934#196934
>
>
>
Message 7
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I was one of the new guys that showed up that Pappy mentioned.- I had a h
elmet cam for the flight from ETB to OSH.- For anyone interested here's a
YouTube link for a short version of the flight:=0Ahttp://www.youtube.com/w
atch?v=D5R2CXiDs70=0A-=0AIt was an awesome experience, thanks to Dave M
cGirt, Pappy and Wild Bill (and I'm sure others that I don't know) for the
work they put in to make it possible for the rest of us to participate.=0A
-=0AMike Love=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
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Very good info, thanks for sharing it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: 06 August 2008 05:11 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: OSH exhaust
I found a inspection cover missing above my oil cooler. I also found several
other Yaks had the same inspection cover missing when I looked at them. I
was getting a lot of smoke and exhaust into my cockpit causing head aches
after flying. It took me a long time to figured it out until I put in a
smoke system and could see it. I purchased a digital meter from Aircraft
spruce after I discovered the indicator on the business card gizmo does not
work, and it was new. I was getting large doses of bad stuff. After
fitting a new inspection plate and sealing around the front and rear of the
oil cooler. there is a large space between the scoop and the and the front
of the cooler where it also allows the exhaust to circumvent the cooler into
the wing root into the cockpit low pressure area. In cruise I now have a 0
reading on my meter and I do get some gasses when running up with the window
open and steep maneuvers like high glide angles for landing. You will also
find exhaust g!
asses coming up through the floor around the nose gear retract cylinder if
not properly sealed. I used two zip ties for that.
I would caution everyone to get rid of the old dot on a card and try a
digital meter. At least borrow one from someone and fly once with it.
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196819#196819
Message 9
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Can you send pictures of what you have done? Are you talking about Yak 52 o
r Yak 50 or??????? =0AIt sounds like a great suject to learn from if we can
get more details.=0AMark Schrick=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A
From: Jorgen Nielsen <jorgen.nielsen@mweb.co.za>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.c
om=0ASent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 11:40:28 AM=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: R
n.nielsen@mweb.co.za>=0A=0AVery good info, thanks for sharing it.=0A=0A----
-Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailt
o:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale=0ASent: 06 August
2008 05:11 AM=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: OSH exh
I found a inspection cover missing above my oil cooler. I also found severa
l=0Aother Yaks had the same inspection cover missing when I looked at them.
I=0Awas getting a lot of smoke and exhaust into my cockpit causing head ac
hes=0Aafter flying. It took me a long time to figured it out until I put in
a=0Asmoke system and could see it.- I purchased a digital meter from Air
craft=0Aspruce after I discovered the indicator on the business card gizmo
does not=0Awork, and it was new.- I was getting large doses of bad stuff.
- After=0Afitting a new inspection plate and sealing around the front and
rear of the=0Aoil cooler.- there is a- large space between the scoop a
nd the and the front=0Aof the cooler where it also allows the exhaust to ci
rcumvent the cooler into=0Athe wing root into the cockpit low pressure area
. In cruise I now have a 0=0Areading on my meter and I do get some gasses w
hen running up with the window=0Aopen and steep maneuvers like high glide a
ngles for landing.- You will also=0Afind exhaust g!=0Aasses coming up thr
ough the floor around the nose gear retract cylinder if=0Anot properly seal
ed. I used two zip ties for that.=0A=0AI would caution everyone to get rid
of the old dot on a card and try a=0Adigital meter. At least borrow one fro
m someone and fly once with it.=0A=0ADale=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic onl
ine here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196819#196819
============
Message 10
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Hi all=2C
Just a query about the g limits of the '52. The book says +7g and -5g=2C is
n't that supposidly IF it has the heavy spar=2C our aeroplane I know for su
re does have the heavy spar mode.
A couple of times I have touched +5g and the g limit light has come on=2C d
oes it need to be re-calibrated or is the limit still at +5g?
Andrew Love
Contract Pilot
NZCPL (A)Queenstown
New Zealand
P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M +64 21
818 816
_________________________________________________________________
Get inspired - dream=2C research=2C plan and book your next holiday online
with MSN NZ Travel
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Message 11
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Have the G meter calibrated as this is what drives the excess G warning.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Love
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:40 PM
Subject: Yak-List: +7g?
Hi all,
Just a query about the g limits of the '52. The book says +7g and -5g,
isn't that supposidly IF it has the heavy spar, our aeroplane I know for
sure does have the heavy spar mode.
A couple of times I have touched +5g and the g limit light has come
on, does it need to be re-calibrated or is the limit still at +5g?
Andrew Love
Contract Pilot
NZCPL (A)
Queenstown
New Zealand
P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M +64
21 818 816
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
MSravel%2Emsn%2Eco%2Enz&_t=771497011&_r=MSN_NZ_travel_hmtagline&_m=
EXT' target='_new'>Get inspired - dream, research, plan and book your
next holiday online with
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rolling G Limits |
I don't think you'll find published limits in your approved flight manual, but
the fact of the matter is there is a limit. In other words, if you pull to your
limit load factor and then add full aileron, something is going to bend or
break, no doubt about it and no way to design around it.
The 2/3 limit is a good rule of thumb with a safety factor built in, but if it's
not a U.S. Certificated airplane, there's no guarantee it'll work out. I could
go into all the other issues (like decreased fatigue life, etc.) that come
into play with "Rolling G's", but the fact of the matter is it's better to "unload,
roll, load".
Incidentally, this doesn't apply to snap rolls. While I wouldn't do it (simply
because it's hard to be this precise), you can snap at the limit load factor
without concern for the effects of rolling G's. The maximum (not recommended)
snap speed is usually the speed at which the airplane will stall at the limit
load factor.
Joe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196994#196994
Message 13
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| Subject: | Need 52 Main Air Bottle |
I am in need of a Main Air Bottle for a Yak 52. Who's got em?
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196995#196995
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rolling G Limits |
Turning/rolling positive "G" limit for the CJ6 is 3.6.
This is information received by Joe Howse some years ago from Mr. Yiji Guo,
Senior Engineer, Beijing Aeronautical Technology Research Centre.
It has been published on the Yak List numerous times over the past years by
Joe and myself.
3.6 G represents 60% of the normal 6G limit for symmetrical loading and is,
as far as I know, an industry standard to avoid the possibility of exceeding
the normal limit with unequal loading..
I have no information for the Yak 52 but expect a similar standard would
exist for that.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "shinden33" <shinden33@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:05 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Rolling G Limits
>
> All,
>
> Has anyone heard mention of asymmetric or rolling g limits on civilian
> aircraft. I've seen them with military aircraft but I have never heard
> mention of rolling g limitations for civilian aircraft until today.
> What's really disturbing is that FAR 23.349 states that structural
> requirements for certification only require that the airplane be built for
> rolling loads at 2/3 of symmetric G limit.
> http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/E6FD59161E5CCA9685256687006D10A2?OpenDocument
>>From the look of this reg, US airplanes may have implied limit? Anyone
>>have any experience with rolling g limits on civil aircraft? More
>>importantly for this crew, does anyone have any gouge on rolling g limits
>>for Yaks and CJs?
>
> Scott
> N8252
>
> --------
> The Defiant Company
> www.thedefiantcompany.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196934#196934
>
>
>
Message 15
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Well, it's in the books. For better or worse we attempted what is
likely the most difficult formation ever to be flown at Airventure in
commemoration of the 50th Anniversary of the CJ. For those of you
who have seen the video or pictures, the result was less than
stellar. There is, however, a story to be told. I'm planning to
write a more detailed account for the upcoming Red Alert magazine,
but the short story is this....
3 days of practicing prior to the event allowed us to get familiar
with flying unusual sight lines, etc. We were only able to practice
the 50 partially due to lack of airplanes and an under equipped FBO
(as Pappy previously mentioned). The brief and plan drawn up by
David McGirt was as good as it could have been. Everyone knew what
would happen, how it would happen, and how we would fill holes if
aircraft dropped out. We walked it through in it's entirety the day
before and game day preparations were all in hand on the day of the
flight.
Just the starting rumble of 46 aircraft on that fateful afternoon was
something I'll never forget. To look around the grass warbird ramp
and have nothing but spinning props as far as the eye could see in
most any direction was an incredible sight. Taxi, takeoff (5 minutes
straight out for lead before starting his turn to the north to allow
most of the aircraft to get off), and join up all went as planned.
Airboss said the show was on time, and after about 20 minutes it was
time to start our run in and put the "50" together. 31 aircraft took
up position in the 5 and the 0 and we were headed for history. At 3
minutes out we were all assembled and looking good. Approaching the
north side of the field at 1500', anyone that knew where we were
coming from could see that we were inbound and together....90 seconds
out and everybody's refining their position. I'm sure I wasn't the
only one in the flight that thought "this is gonna be cool!"....and
then disaster struck. "OK guys," says Mission Commander McGirt
(flying high cover and dressing the formation as necessary...all we
heard 'til this point was "you're lookin' great, gentlemen"),
"Airboss says he needs 5 minutes, so we're gonna turn this
thing..... We're 3 miles from show center and airboss delivers the
biggest screw job I've ever seen at an air show....
We did the best we could and after seeing the video for myself all I
will say is I am DARNED PROUD of our guys for keeping it as together
as they did...we had to change airspeeds...the lead of the 5 (Pappy)
passed the lead the lead of the zero (Pumper) in the middle of our
turn to keep things together....we maneuvered a total of nearly 360
degrees with 31 airplanes in a formation that was 8 airplanes deep
and 10 airplanes wide within 5 miles of show center with a 3 mile run
in and still had a recognizable formation. Yes, it was ugly and far
worse than anyone had hoped for. We are all disappointed with the
result. But the simple fact is that we did the best we could with
what we had and factors beyond our control sealed our fate.
I am proud to have been a part of that formation and proud of the
guys in the back that did all they could with the most nasty curve
ball they'd ever seen. Overall it was a great week....and there was
far more positive than the one negative highlight. It's the best
Oshkosh I've ever been a part of....and I've been there from year one
of Red Star airplane mass formation at OSH. Pappy, David McGirt,
Craig Payne, Russ Dycus, John Cox and a cast of dozens did a great
job of making it a fantastic week. One we can all be proud of.....
Bdog
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rolling G Limits |
When I was taking aerobatics instruction in the Yak from Sergie I
asked him the best way to break a Yak. His reply was to do snap rolls
without fully stalling the wings. So I guess that means that if you
don't fully stall the wing before the snap roll you will be inducing
rolling g's.
Pete
At 06:53 PM 8/6/2008, you wrote:
>
>I don't think you'll find published limits in your approved flight
>manual, but the fact of the matter is there is a limit. In other
>words, if you pull to your limit load factor and then add full
>aileron, something is going to bend or break, no doubt about it and
>no way to design around it.
>
>The 2/3 limit is a good rule of thumb with a safety factor built in,
>but if it's not a U.S. Certificated airplane, there's no guarantee
>it'll work out. I could go into all the other issues (like
>decreased fatigue life, etc.) that come into play with "Rolling
>G's", but the fact of the matter is it's better to "unload, roll, load".
>
>Incidentally, this doesn't apply to snap rolls. While I wouldn't do
>it (simply because it's hard to be this precise), you can snap at
>the limit load factor without concern for the effects of rolling
>G's. The maximum (not recommended) snap speed is usually the speed
>at which the airplane will stall at the limit load factor.
>
>Joe
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196994#196994
>
>
Message 17
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If you have the heavy spar mod, then you have two triangular covers
on the bottom of the plane on the lower wing root fairings where the
wing spar attaches to the carry through spar. If you don't have those
triangular covers, then you have the derated+5 -3g wing.
Pete
At 04:40 PM 8/6/2008, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Just a query about the g limits of the '52. The book says +7g and
>-5g, isn't that supposidly IF it has the heavy spar, our aeroplane I
>know for sure does have the heavy spar mode.
>A couple of times I have touched +5g and the g limit light has come
>on, does it need to be re-calibrated or is the limit still at +5g?
>
>
>Andrew Love
>
>
>Contract Pilot
>
>NZCPL (A)
>Queenstown
>
>New Zealand
>
>
>P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M
>+64 21 818 816
>
>
>----------
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