Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:30 AM - Re: N Registered Yak aircraft (Hans Oortman)
2. 01:49 AM - Liutauras Dzuizas (Allan V)
3. 04:04 AM - Re: N Registered Yak aircraft (Jan Mevis)
4. 04:45 AM - Re: N Registered Yak aircraft (Hans Oortman)
5. 05:26 AM - Re: N Registered Yak aircraft (Roger Kemp MD)
6. 08:46 AM - Certification (Richard Goode)
7. 10:17 AM - Thanks from the newbies (doug sapp)
8. 12:18 PM - Re: Certification (Hans Oortman 1)
9. 07:05 PM - Re: Engine For Sale 285hp ()
10. 09:12 PM - Paintball tank? (N642K)
Message 1
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| Subject: | N Registered Yak aircraft |
Doc,
Yes, we do have an experimental category in Holland as well as in Belgium
and the rest of Europe for that matter..but.there is always a big "but"
here:
It is a pure administrative thing, i.e. the definition of what falls or
should fall into this category. I personally have had discussion with our
"FAA" about the issue/possibility to register ex military aircraft into this
category, it would make life a bit easier than the Russian registration.
This was 5 years ago and those civil guys (mainly lawyers) still haven't
figured it out.and it is so simple...a matter of wording.but those civil
dudes have still not found the right words and why should they.the longer
they wait, the longer they have a job...
Hans
_____
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp MD
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type
certificates and do not have the blessed "experimental" category that we are
so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental
show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You
have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be
pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jan.mevis@informavia.be writes:
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the
Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and
Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case,
but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
Subject: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of
registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting
to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position
is:
* Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category
Certificates of Airworthiness.
* A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any
ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be
controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle,
an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in
another country relatively easy.
* The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a
practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I
suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
* Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries
handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility
to do what it thinks is best.
* So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the
paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
* A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a
Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the
country of issue.
* They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a
"Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country
over which the flying is occurring.
* Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For
example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian
Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will
only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
* So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are
therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is
not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
* For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch
Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
* An important point is that there is virtually no legislation
PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem
is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of
Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle
and refuse!
Ownership
* A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most
countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country
can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own
any aircraft registered in any other European country.
* In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that
trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
* Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up
companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company
then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Yak-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
<http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047> here.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Liutauras Dzuizas |
Hi
Further to my last post I contacted Barnstormers informing of two
adverts appearing by Liutauras of ANABARAS Lithuania in Barnstormers
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_264608_French+Warbird.html
and that six individuals people to my knowledge have been defrauded in
advance deposit scam.
Unfortunately they wont remove the adverts.
The only problem in my view is that between a scam and eventual
conviction hes able to freely operate ripping off others.
I did make the point that I wondered how people who might have been
warned but were ripped off by these adverts will feel. Anyhow thats
their policy buyer beware.
.........................................................................
..............................................
Mr. Vestgard:
I am responding to the note we received from you today.
Certainly we appreciate the frustration of your belief that this
individual has committed fraud, but the Authorities are your proper
recourse for the accusation you make against Mr. Dziuzas.
Be assured that were Barnstormers Inc. to be notified of an individuals
having been found guilty of criminal activity involving the use of our
website, we would ban them from the site.
David XXXX (Ive removed the gentlemans name for privacy reasons)
Barnstormers Inc.
.........................................................................
.................................
Cest la vie
Cheers
AllanVestergard___(viewpoints expressed are my own not anyone elses)
Message 3
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| Subject: | N Registered Yak aircraft |
That's correct. Every Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang pilot in Europe would be
thrilled having this freedom.
With the Russian register, we do have some possibilities in some countries
because the Russian inspectors are serious, decent guys who are also very
practical and don't make fuzz about silly details. But I 'm quite afraid
that it won't last for a long time anymore. Europe is becoming a hughe
bureaucratic burden. One day they 'll even make rules about the colour of
toilet paper.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
Subject: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type
certificates and do not have the blessed "experimental" category that we are
so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental
show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You
have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be
pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jan.mevis@informavia.be writes:
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the
Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and
Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case,
but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
Subject: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of
registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting
to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position
is:
* Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category
Certificates of Airworthiness.
* A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any
ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be
controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle,
an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in
another country relatively easy.
* The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a
practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I
suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
* Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries
handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility
to do what it thinks is best.
* So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the
paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
* A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a
Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the
country of issue.
* They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a
"Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country
over which the flying is occurring.
* Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For
example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian
Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will
only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
* So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are
therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is
not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
* For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch
Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
* An important point is that there is virtually no legislation
PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem
is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of
Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle
and refuse!
Ownership
* A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most
countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country
can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own
any aircraft registered in any other European country.
* In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that
trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
* Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up
companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company
then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Yak-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
<http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047> here.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | N Registered Yak aircraft |
Jan,
They already did that for the shape of bananas so why not for toilet paper??
Hans
_____
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 8:52
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
That's correct. Every Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang pilot in Europe would be
thrilled having this freedom.
With the Russian register, we do have some possibilities in some countries
because the Russian inspectors are serious, decent guys who are also very
practical and don't make fuzz about silly details. But I 'm quite afraid
that it won't last for a long time anymore. Europe is becoming a hughe
bureaucratic burden. One day they 'll even make rules about the colour of
toilet paper.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
Subject: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type
certificates and do not have the blessed "experimental" category that we are
so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental
show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You
have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be
pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jan.mevis@informavia.be writes:
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the
Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and
Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case,
but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
Subject: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of
registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting
to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position
is:
* Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category
Certificates of Airworthiness.
* A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any
ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be
controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle,
an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in
another country relatively easy.
* The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a
practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I
suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
* Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries
handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility
to do what it thinks is best.
* So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the
paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
* A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a
Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the
country of issue.
* They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a
"Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country
over which the flying is occurring.
* Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For
example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian
Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will
only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
* So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are
therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is
not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
* For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch
Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
* An important point is that there is virtually no legislation
PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem
is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of
Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle
and refuse!
Ownership
* A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most
countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country
can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own
any aircraft registered in any other European country.
* In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that
trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
* Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up
companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company
then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Yak-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
<http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047> here.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | N Registered Yak aircraft |
And we thought we had it bad in the US! We just have tree huggers and Al
Gore!
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:43 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
Jan,
They already did that for the shape of bananas so why not for toilet paper??
Hans
_____
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 8:52
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
That's correct. Every Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang pilot in Europe would be
thrilled having this freedom.
With the Russian register, we do have some possibilities in some countries
because the Russian inspectors are serious, decent guys who are also very
practical and don't make fuzz about silly details. But I 'm quite afraid
that it won't last for a long time anymore. Europe is becoming a hughe
bureaucratic burden. One day they 'll even make rules about the colour of
toilet paper.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
Subject: RE: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type
certificates and do not have the blessed "experimental" category that we are
so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental
show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You
have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be
pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jan.mevis@informavia.be writes:
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the
Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and
Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case,
but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
Subject: Yak-List: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of
registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting
to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position
is:
* Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category
Certificates of Airworthiness.
* A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any
ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be
controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle,
an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in
another country relatively easy.
* The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a
practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I
suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
* Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries
handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility
to do what it thinks is best.
* So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the
paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
* A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a
Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the
country of issue.
* They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a
"Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country
over which the flying is occurring.
* Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For
example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian
Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will
only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
* So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are
therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is
not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
* For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch
Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
* An important point is that there is virtually no legislation
PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem
is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of
Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle
and refuse!
Ownership
* A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most
countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country
can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own
any aircraft registered in any other European country.
* In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that
trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
* Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up
companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company
then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Yak-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
<http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047> here.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 6
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Certification
This is not a simple issue, and to respond to recent postings:
Type Certificates are not something that can be "provided". You need to
start with an aeroplane that has been designed according to a design
code to obtain Type Certification, and, effectively, it is impossible to
do this retrospectively.
In terms of the popular Russian light aircraft, the 50/52/55 were
designed to a very high standard, but a military design code.
The 18T was designed to a Russian civil design code - but with which
there are no comparable codes in the West.
The US has FAR 23, and Europe has had JAR 23, which are almost
identical. Following these, some ten years ago, Russia established AR
23, which is paragraph for paragraph the same, although in some areas,
the Russian standard in more demanding.
HOWEVER, given the lack of bilateral agreements between Russia and the
West, the Russian Type Certification is not automatically accepted in
the West.
Also, the cost within Russia of obtaining Type Certification is so big
that it effectively deters anyone from undertaking it.
However the Su-29 and 31; Yak-54 have obtained AR 23 Full Certification.
In Western countries, Lithuania has gone through a process of Type
Certification for Yak-54, and Hungary has Type Certificated the Sukhois
and the Yak-18T. The view of EASA has been that Hungarian
certifications were not sufficiently thorough for EASA to automatically
accept them, but EASA felt that the Sukhois / Yak-54 / 18T were all
aeroplanes that should be Type Certificated, and therefore proposed a
"short cut" certification process to go from the historical Russian code
(for 18T) and AR 23, (for Sukhois and Yak-54). EASA emphasised that
this would be a genuine short cut; would be genuinely cheap; most of the
work would be done by themselves. However none of the Russians would
agree to cooperate and provide the data/flight test reports etc that
would be needed.
Very fortunately EASA took a very sensible view and did not, as they
could have, relegate all these aeroplanes into "Annexe 2" (see below),
and on an initial basis have given them EASA "Permits to Fly".
The practicality is that these planes can fly without effective
restrictions throughout Europe; be maintained anywhere within Europe
etc.
It is now the intension of EASA to change from Permits to Fly (which had
always been intended as a temporary category) into long term Restricted
Certificates of Airworthiness. Hopefully this process will begin in the
next few months.
Hans Oortman is wrong to say that Yak-52 and 50 are "on the EASA list".
Sure they are on an EASA list - which is their Annexe 2. Annexe 2 is
for aircraft that are NOT in the jurisdiction of EASA, and this includes
a huge spectrum of aircraft such as Home-built; Warbirds; aircraft
produced before Type Certified standards AND Yak-50 and 52.
The whole point of Annexe 2 is that these aeroplanes are not the
responsibility of EASA, but are handled by the local National Aviation
Authority in each country. Fortunately as we know only to well, there
is no uniformity amongst European countries as to how this should be
handled.
So, if it is a type that currently gets an EASA "Permit to Fly" like a
Sukhoi/18T etc, no problem to bring one into Europe.
If not, today you have the possibility of Russian registration, or you
have a Restricted Certificate from another country, coupled with a
"Over-Fly" Permission from your own, or you try to get it accepted by
your own NAA!
Hope that this helps.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Thanks from the newbies |
All,
Finally back home and caught up with shipping, parts orders, and aircraft
shipments from China.
This was our first trip to OSH, and as such many thanks go to all that
helped make it a fun and unforgettable experience for both Kathleen and I.
First of all many thanks go to Val Walker for the Friends and Family pass
that allowed us to commercial in without a hitch, thanks to her generosity
and help we had a great trip. OSH it's self was made unforgettable by Hal
Morley, Randy De Vere, and John Cox , big thanks are due for taking Kathleen
and I under their collective wings and showing us the right way to do OSH.
Because of them we had a great time, slept in air conditioned comfort and
had the benefit of "John I never am lost Cox" as the designated driver.
Special thanks and the "above and beyond" award goes to Dan Fortine for
delivering (in style) on his promise to buy me a cold beer at OSH. Dan
could not be there personally so he had a case of his best flown in, what a
guy!! Thanks Dan we passed it around and it was enjoyed by all.
It was great to finally put faces to the many names and voices who have done
business and supported our business over the past nearly 20 years. I look
forward to doing OSH again next year and hope to finally make the journey in
my own aircraft rather via Delta. I had a lot of fun and several memorable
moments, one of which was when looking up at the 5-0 which despite of
everyone's valiant efforts was having it's problems, the fellow standing
beside me was heard to say "maybe it's 50 in Chinese".
Again, thanks to all, best from Omak.
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 8
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It is the Annexe 2 list which I meant.
I have been told by our CAA that eventually, what ever that means, we will
have a category ( the legal term I believe is because of grandfathers
rights.) in Holland where those aircraft will fit..the problem is.nobody
told us when..
Hans
_____
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Richard Goode
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 17:19
Aan: YAK USA LIST
Onderwerp: Yak-List: Certification
Certification
This is not a simple issue, and to respond to recent postings:
Type Certificates are not something that can be "provided". You need to
start with an aeroplane that has been designed according to a design code to
obtain Type Certification, and, effectively, it is impossible to do this
retrospectively.
In terms of the popular Russian light aircraft, the 50/52/55 were designed
to a very high standard, but a military design code.
The 18T was designed to a Russian civil design code - but with which there
are no comparable codes in the West.
The US has FAR 23, and Europe has had JAR 23, which are almost identical.
Following these, some ten years ago, Russia established AR 23, which is
paragraph for paragraph the same, although in some areas, the Russian
standard in more demanding.
HOWEVER, given the lack of bilateral agreements between Russia and the West,
the Russian Type Certification is not automatically accepted in the West.
Also, the cost within Russia of obtaining Type Certification is so big that
it effectively deters anyone from undertaking it.
However the Su-29 and 31; Yak-54 have obtained AR 23 Full Certification.
In Western countries, Lithuania has gone through a process of Type
Certification for Yak-54, and Hungary has Type Certificated the Sukhois and
the Yak-18T. The view of EASA has been that Hungarian certifications were
not sufficiently thorough for EASA to automatically accept them, but EASA
felt that the Sukhois / Yak-54 / 18T were all aeroplanes that should be Type
Certificated, and therefore proposed a "short cut" certification process to
go from the historical Russian code (for 18T) and AR 23, (for Sukhois and
Yak-54). EASA emphasised that this would be a genuine short cut; would be
genuinely cheap; most of the work would be done by themselves. However
none of the Russians would agree to cooperate and provide the data/flight
test reports etc that would be needed.
Very fortunately EASA took a very sensible view and did not, as they could
have, relegate all these aeroplanes into "Annexe 2" (see below), and on an
initial basis have given them EASA "Permits to Fly".
The practicality is that these planes can fly without effective restrictions
throughout Europe; be maintained anywhere within Europe etc.
It is now the intension of EASA to change from Permits to Fly (which had
always been intended as a temporary category) into long term Restricted
Certificates of Airworthiness. Hopefully this process will begin in the
next few months.
Hans Oortman is wrong to say that Yak-52 and 50 are "on the EASA list".
Sure they are on an EASA list - which is their Annexe 2. Annexe 2 is for
aircraft that are NOT in the jurisdiction of EASA, and this includes a huge
spectrum of aircraft such as Home-built; Warbirds; aircraft produced before
Type Certified standards AND Yak-50 and 52.
The whole point of Annexe 2 is that these aeroplanes are not the
responsibility of EASA, but are handled by the local National Aviation
Authority in each country. Fortunately as we know only to well, there is
no uniformity amongst European countries as to how this should be handled.
So, if it is a type that currently gets an EASA "Permit to Fly" like a
Sukhoi/18T etc, no problem to bring one into Europe.
If not, today you have the possibility of Russian registration, or you have
a Restricted Certificate from another country, coupled with a "Over-Fly"
Permission from your own, or you try to get it accepted by your own NAA!
Hope that this helps.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine For Sale 285hp |
Hello Scott,
I have just sold my CJ to a guy who is packing it up this week.
I mentioned your engine, and he was intersted. Can you tell me if you
still have it, and what is the Total Time, as well as time since
overhaul.
Regards
Franc
From: ONTHEGOSA@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Engine For Sale 285hp
I have a good 285 for sale, 500 SMOH, intake drains, Auto Ignition,
spare
exhaust plumbed for smoke system, been on oil filter since in States,
Oil
analysis done every 50 hrs shows a good engine, runs strong! The only
reason
for
putting the engine up for sale is that I swapped over to a M14P "Rat"
engine
from Bill
Blackwell. The 285 has been maintained by Blackwell since in the States
as
well.
$6,500 plus shipping.
Scott Andrews
602-705-4413
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Message 10
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Started researching my spare air travel tank. The paintball folks have some amazing
4800psi tanks available. Has anybody tried this route?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199588#199588
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