---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/11/08: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:19 AM - FW: FW: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation (Bill Geipel) 2. 06:57 AM - FAA and Compensation (Craig Winkelmann, CFI) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: FW: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 08:48 AM - Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (N642K) 5. 09:13 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (keithmckinley) 6. 09:15 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (N642K) 7. 09:33 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (doug sapp) 8. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (cjpilot710@aol.com) 9. 09:45 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (Walter Lannon) 10. 09:56 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (doug sapp) 11. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (Walter Lannon) 12. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (Keith McKinley) 13. 10:25 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (keithmckinley) 14. 10:38 AM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (N642K) 15. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (A. Dennis Savarese) 16. 12:54 PM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (keithmckinley) 17. 02:34 PM - Re: FW: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 18. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (A. Dennis Savarese) 19. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (A. Dennis Savarese) 20. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (dabear) 21. 05:03 PM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (Robert Langford) 22. 05:19 PM - Re: FW: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation (Bill Geipel) 23. 07:29 PM - Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (Craig Winkelmann, CFI) 24. 07:41 PM - Re: Lamar Clinic (Craig Winkelmann, CFI) 25. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (Walter Lannon) 26. 08:33 PM - Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (keithmckinley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Geipel" Subject: FW: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation _____ From: dgilliss@earthlink.net [mailto:dgilliss@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation 91.147 is a continuation of 91.146-Charitable flights, except it addresses fee-based flights, a reg aimed at flights in light aircraft.The Feds have made charitable flights (money raising by giving rides) a nightmare, essentially eliminating it as a possibility due to the onerous requirements (drug testing, advanced notice, approval, etc.) For airshows, it is generally not applicable. Giving a VIP a flight is not a charitable flight and should not be a fee-based flight. Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an airshow. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it. What becomes a problem is VIP rides. Sponsors often expect flights in military aircraft because their company gave money to the event. If the total fuel/compensation is contracted for in advance and there are no extra-fuel-for-more-rides agreements at the show there should be no problem. It is the flights for hire/fee that cause a problem. The FSDO inspector citing 91.147 is unknowledgeable. If he knew what he was doing he would cite 91.319, which has a blanket exclusion for flights for compensation in Experimental Exhibition aircraft, except for the exclusions in section (h) of that reg. The only way to fly VIPs legally, though marginally so, is to have a fixed amount of fuel/compensation for the appearance, whether flying or static, and then elect to take a passenger on a flight the pilot flies, effectively without compensation. If there is waivered airspace during the flight, virtually all FSDOs will prohibit passengers (the only exception in their handbooks is for required crew or safety of flight--a pilot rated in the plane on a formation flight, for example). On page 9 of the March 2006 issue of the FAA Aviation News (attached) is the Flying For Dollars article that discusses these issues. FAA inspectors have generally followed it, since it appeared in their magazine. DG Douglas Gilliss 249 South Pacific Coast Highway Solana Beach, CA 92075 (619) 888-6510 FAX (619) 330-1870 dgilliss@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:34 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: FAA and Compensation From: "Craig Winkelmann, CFI" Folks: I am not a bit surprised by what is reported at WS Airshow. Civil Air Patrol provides cadet orientation flights for cadet members of the program. A year or two ago, the FAA determined that if the pilots who were flying the cadets logged the flight time they were being compensated for flying. The extrapolation was that pilots were not paying for the fuel on those flights so they were logging free time that many pilots use toward experience requirements for higher ratings. They also dictated that pilots must be commercial rated. The FAA and CAP finally resolved the issue after much legal wrangling. So, now you see how the FAA can extrapolate anything they want. As always, they put the burden on CAP and CAP pilots to resolve the matter. Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3799#203799 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:42 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviationThe article link: http://www.faa.gov/news/aviation_news/2006/media/marapr2006.pdf Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Geipel To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:20 AM Subject: FW: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: dgilliss@earthlink.net [mailto:dgilliss@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:36 PM To: Bill Geipel Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation 91.147 is a continuation of 91.146-Charitable flights, except it addresses fee-based flights, a reg aimed at flights in light aircraft.The Feds have made charitable flights (money raising by giving rides) a nightmare, essentially eliminating it as a possibility due to the onerous requirements (drug testing, advanced notice, approval, etc.) For airshows, it is generally not applicable. Giving a VIP a flight is not a charitable flight and should not be a fee-based flight. Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an airshow. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it. What becomes a problem is VIP rides. Sponsors often expect flights in military aircraft because their company gave money to the event. If the total fuel/compensation is contracted for in advance and there are no extra-fuel-for-more-rides agreements at the show there should be no problem. It is the flights for hire/fee that cause a problem. The FSDO inspector citing 91.147 is unknowledgeable. If he knew what he was doing he would cite 91.319, which has a blanket exclusion for flights for compensation in Experimental Exhibition aircraft, except for the exclusions in section (h) of that reg. The only way to fly VIPs legally, though marginally so, is to have a fixed amount of fuel/compensation for the appearance, whether flying or static, and then elect to take a passenger on a flight the pilot flies, effectively without compensation. If there is waivered airspace during the flight, virtually all FSDOs will prohibit passengers (the only exception in their handbooks is for required crew or safety of flight--a pilot rated in the plane on a formation flight, for example). On page 9 of the March 2006 issue of the FAA Aviation News (attached) is the Flying For Dollars article that discusses these issues. FAA inspectors have generally followed it, since it appeared in their magazine. DG Douglas Gilliss 249 South Pacific Coast Highway Solana Beach, CA 92075 (619) 888-6510 FAX (619) 330-1870 dgilliss@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:50 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "N642K" Ok, I have a new water separator and the correct main air dialed in (it had been way too high). The emerg pressure has remained exactly where it was. Is there another adjustment? Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3817#203817 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:40 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "keithmckinley" I just did the exact same thing and adjusted my air to 43 ATM. Before I did that, however, I bleed down the emergency bottle. It's running a tad higher than the main pressure but I believe that is fairly normal. I don't believe, as a previous post suggests, that it is due to the bottle sizes. If the emergency bottle was bleed to zero it makes sense that it should never go higher than the pop off valve setting. Of course there is the issue of gauge accuracy as well. Keith N700hs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3820#203820 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:51 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "N642K" Thanks Keith, but how do you bleed it down? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3823#203823 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:02 AM PST US From: "doug sapp" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? On a CJ6 the only pressure adjustment is the H2-5502-00 "pop of valve". Both the main and emergency air tanks fill at the same time and BOTH are limited as to their pressure by the setting of this valve. So if your system is plumbed "normally" (no aftermarket changes in the system) all the gauges (all are P/N BYQ80-1A) should read the same 45 to 50 ATMS. *The key here is to first make sure your main air gauge is correct and reads 45 to 50 ATMS when your pop off valve starts relieving the pressure.* Then and only then can be secure in the knowledge that if your emergency gauges read higher, the problem is simply a bad gauge and not a potentially dangerous situation. Hope this helps. Always Yakin, Doug On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:47 AM, N642K wrote: > > Ok, I have a new water separator and the correct main air dialed in (it had > been way too high). The emerg pressure has remained exactly where it was. > Is there another adjustment? > > Thanks. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3817#203817 > > -- Always Yakin, Doug Sapp Phone 509-826-4610 Fax 509-826-3644 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:09 AM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? In a message dated 9/11/2008 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdecanio@mac.com writes: Simply by loosening the "B" nut on the down stream of the check valve which is on the firewall. You'll hear the air escaping. After the pressure goes to zero, simply re tighten the "B" nut - safety wire it - and you're good to go. Pappy --> Yak-List message posted by: "N642K" Thanks Keith, but how do you bleed it down? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3823#203823 **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:38 AM PST US From: Walter Lannon Subject: Re: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? The charging air into the emergency tank goes through a non-return check valve on the RH side of the CJ firewall. If it has previously been charged to a higher value than the current relief valve setting there can be no change to the emerg. pressure since the check valve will not open. If that is the case you must bleed some pressure from the emerg. tank by loosening a fitting at the check valve, the tank or at either valve. If at the valve find the pipeline going to the tank. Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "N642K" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > Ok, I have a new water separator and the correct main air dialed in (it > had been way too high). The emerg pressure has remained exactly where it > was. Is there another adjustment? > > Thanks. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3817#203817 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:39 AM PST US From: "doug sapp" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? Sorry guys, I should have specified that you need to start with empty tanks to do the process correctly. Thanks Walt! Doug On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Walter Lannon wrote: > > The charging air into the emergency tank goes through a non-return check > valve on the RH side of the CJ firewall. If it has previously been charged > to a higher value than the current relief valve setting there can be no > change to the emerg. pressure since the check valve will not open. > > If that is the case you must bleed some pressure from the emerg. tank by > loosening a fitting at the check valve, the tank or at either valve. If at > the valve find the pipeline going to the tank. > > Walt > ----- Original Message ----- From: "N642K" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:47 AM > Subject: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > >> >> Ok, I have a new water separator and the correct main air dialed in (it >> had been way too high). The emerg pressure has remained exactly where it >> was. Is there another adjustment? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3817#203817 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Always Yakin, Doug Sapp Phone 509-826-4610 Fax 509-826-3644 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:43 AM PST US From: Walter Lannon Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? Typically I find that the emerg. air pressure will gradually creep up to about 5 ATM more than the main air. As mentioned in a previous post I suggested this was due to difference in the size of the two systems (not the tanks.). The main system includes landing gear, flaps, brakes and air start with all the various pipelines, fittings, actuators, shuttle valves, check-valves, flare joints, etc, etc. By comparison, with the ermerg. valves closed, the emerg. "system" consists of one tank, two pipelines and one check valve. Is it any wonder the Emergency side is far less susceptible to leakage than the Main? Not really necessary to reduce the emerg. pressure to zero. Anything lower than the relief valve setting will do. Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "keithmckinley" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:13 AM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > > I just did the exact same thing and adjusted my air to 43 ATM. Before I > did that, however, I bleed down the emergency bottle. It's running a tad > higher than the main pressure but I believe that is fairly normal. I don't > believe, as a previous post suggests, that it is due to the bottle sizes. > If the emergency bottle was bleed to zero it makes sense that it should > never go higher than the pop off valve setting. > > Of course there is the issue of gauge accuracy as well. > > Keith > N700hs > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3820#203820 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:26 AM PST US From: Keith McKinley Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? bleed the main air bottle and close the valve then open the emergency valve and cycle the flaps. It takes a bit to do it but it only needs to be less than the pressure you intend to set on the pop off valve. Keith On Sep 11, 2008, at 12:15 PM, N642K wrote: > > Thanks Keith, but how do you bleed it down? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3823#203823 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:16 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "keithmckinley" All the posts regarding loosening fittings to relieve pressure are fine but I guess I just hate to loosen and re-tighten if it isn't leaking and I can do it by other means. That's just me Keith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3842#203842 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:14 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "N642K" Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3845#203845 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:07 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? Don't forget, the shuttle valves for the landing gear actuators will move to the opposite side if you open the emergency valve. To insure the landing gear will operate properly after you close the emergency air valve, you must bleed off the pressure on the emergency side of the shuttle valves. If you don't do this, there is a very good chance the landing gear will not function properly. Walt's suggestion for bleeding the emergency system down is the way you should do it. That way you won't have to deal with the shuttle valves. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "N642K" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3845#203845 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:12 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "keithmckinley" Respectfully, I can't really think of a way that there would be a problem unless there was a faulty shuttle valve. And you can hear in move back and forth. But in any case a good reason to make sure the gear is cycled on the emergency bottle while on jacks for the annual. K Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3869#203869 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:04 PM PST US Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Not to be argumentative, but you said: "Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an air show. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it." Excuse me... You say this based on what? Personal experience? Personal opinion? Conversation with an FAA Official? Point being, I would really like to see what you commented on in writing with an FAA sig. at the bottom of it. My problem is the amount of "differences in opinion" that seem to be legally allowable between FAA FISDO's. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:20 Subject: FW: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation ________________________________ From: dgilliss@earthlink.net [mailto:dgilliss@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation 91.147 is a continuation of 91.146-Charitable flights, except it addresses fee-based flights, a reg aimed at flights in light aircraft.The Feds have made charitable flights (money raising by giving rides) a nightmare, essentially eliminating it as a possibility due to the onerous requirements (drug testing, advanced notice, approval, etc.) For airshows, it is generally not applicable. Giving a VIP a flight is not a charitable flight and should not be a fee-based flight. Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an airshow. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it. What becomes a problem is VIP rides. Sponsors often expect flights in military aircraft because their company gave money to the event. If the total fuel/compensation is contracted for in advance and there are no extra-fuel-for-more-rides agreements at the show there should be no problem. It is the flights for hire/fee that cause a problem. The FSDO inspector citing 91.147 is unknowledgeable. If he knew what he was doing he would cite 91.319, which has a blanket exclusion for flights for compensation in Experimental Exhibition aircraft, except for the exclusions in section (h) of that reg. The only way to fly VIPs legally, though marginally so, is to have a fixed amount of fuel/compensation for the appearance, whether flying or static, and then elect to take a passenger on a flight the pilot flies, effectively without compensation. If there is waivered airspace during the flight, virtually all FSDOs will prohibit passengers (the only exception in their handbooks is for required crew or safety of flight--a pilot rated in the plane on a formation flight, for example). On page 9 of the March 2006 issue of the FAA Aviation News (attached) is the Flying For Dollars article that discusses these issues. FAA inspectors have generally followed it, since it appeared in their magazine. DG Douglas Gilliss 249 South Pacific Coast Highway Solana Beach, CA 92075 (619) 888-6510 FAX (619) 330-1870 dgilliss@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:39 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? With pressure on the shuttle valve from the emergency side, the ball in the shuttle valve moves to the other side blocking off the main side. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "keithmckinley" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > > Respectfully, I can't really think of a way that there would be a problem > unless there was a faulty shuttle valve. And you can hear in move back and > forth. But in any case a good reason to make sure the gear is cycled on > the emergency bottle while on jacks for the annual. > > K > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3869#203869 > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:39 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? ie: we have counter acting pressure on the shuttle valve. The emergency system pressure has already moved the ball in the shuttle valve. The main system pressure would be trying to move the ball the other way, but can't. Try it sometime. Put the airplane on jacks and raise the landing gear. Now use the procedure for extending the gear with the emergency air. Once the gear is down using the emergency air, try raising the gear normally. If the gear won't go up it's because the ball shuttle valves to the actuators are moved to the opposite side by the pressure from the emergency system. Unless you relieve that pressure, the ball will stay there blocking the main side from functioning properly. Walt Lannon - would you like to comment on this? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > > With pressure on the shuttle valve from the emergency side, the ball in > the shuttle valve moves to the other side blocking off the main side. > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "keithmckinley" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:53 PM > Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > >> >> >> Respectfully, I can't really think of a way that there would be a problem >> unless there was a faulty shuttle valve. And you can hear in move back >> and forth. But in any case a good reason to make sure the gear is cycled >> on the emergency bottle while on jacks for the annual. >> >> K >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3869#203869 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:17 PM PST US From: "dabear" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? However, you can remove the air from the emergency side by closing the emergency valve (engine/compressor not running), and actuating the flaps/gear/brakes. Once the air is out of the emerg side of the system the gear can be raised again. One of the biggest issues I have seen over the years is coming out of annual, once the emerg gear extension is done. It causes problems with the air system because the shuttle valves have moved for the first time in a year. Any issues/weaknesses with the shuttle valves will be seen just after annual. I'm wondering if I want to test the emergency system every month or so to limit the issues. Thoughts? DaBear ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > > ie: we have counter acting pressure on the shuttle valve. The emergency > system pressure has already moved the ball in the shuttle valve. The main > system pressure would be trying to move the ball the other way, but can't. > > Try it sometime. Put the airplane on jacks and raise the landing gear. > Now use the procedure for extending the gear with the emergency air. Once > the gear is down using the emergency air, try raising the gear normally. > If the gear won't go up it's because the ball shuttle valves to the > actuators are moved to the opposite side by the pressure from the > emergency system. Unless you relieve that pressure, the ball will stay > there blocking the main side from functioning properly. > > Walt Lannon - would you like to comment on this? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. Dennis Savarese" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > >> >> >> With pressure on the shuttle valve from the emergency side, the ball in >> the shuttle valve moves to the other side blocking off the main side. >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "keithmckinley" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:53 PM >> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? >> >> >>> >>> >>> Respectfully, I can't really think of a way that there would be a >>> problem unless there was a faulty shuttle valve. And you can hear in >>> move back and forth. But in any case a good reason to make sure the gear >>> is cycled on the emergency bottle while on jacks for the annual. >>> >>> K >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3869#203869 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:22 PM PST US From: "Robert Langford" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? No! ----- Original Message ----- From: "N642K" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:47 AM Subject: Yak-List: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > Ok, I have a new water separator and the correct main air dialed in (it > had been way too high). The emerg pressure has remained exactly where it > was. Is there another adjustment? > > Thanks. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3817#203817 > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 7:03 AM > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:30 PM PST US From: "Bill Geipel" Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation Mark, I tried to send the entire file but Matronics said it was to big. I will try again. It is a lengthy article but I'll work on it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation MALS-14 64E" Not to be argumentative, but you said: "Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an air show. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it." Excuse me... You say this based on what? Personal experience? Personal opinion? Conversation with an FAA Official? Point being, I would really like to see what you commented on in writing with an FAA sig. at the bottom of it. My problem is the amount of "differences in opinion" that seem to be legally allowable between FAA FISDO's. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:20 Subject: FW: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation ________________________________ From: dgilliss@earthlink.net [mailto:dgilliss@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation 91.147 is a continuation of 91.146-Charitable flights, except it addresses fee-based flights, a reg aimed at flights in light aircraft.The Feds have made charitable flights (money raising by giving rides) a nightmare, essentially eliminating it as a possibility due to the onerous requirements (drug testing, advanced notice, approval, etc.) For airshows, it is generally not applicable. Giving a VIP a flight is not a charitable flight and should not be a fee-based flight. Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an airshow. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it. What becomes a problem is VIP rides. Sponsors often expect flights in military aircraft because their company gave money to the event. If the total fuel/compensation is contracted for in advance and there are no extra-fuel-for-more-rides agreements at the show there should be no problem. It is the flights for hire/fee that cause a problem. The FSDO inspector citing 91.147 is unknowledgeable. If he knew what he was doing he would cite 91.319, which has a blanket exclusion for flights for compensation in Experimental Exhibition aircraft, except for the exclusions in section (h) of that reg. The only way to fly VIPs legally, though marginally so, is to have a fixed amount of fuel/compensation for the appearance, whether flying or static, and then elect to take a passenger on a flight the pilot flies, effectively without compensation. If there is waivered airspace during the flight, virtually all FSDOs will prohibit passengers (the only exception in their handbooks is for required crew or safety of flight--a pilot rated in the plane on a formation flight, for example). On page 9 of the March 2006 issue of the FAA Aviation News (attached) is the Flying For Dollars article that discusses these issues. FAA inspectors have generally followed it, since it appeared in their magazine. DG Douglas Gilliss 249 South Pacific Coast Highway Solana Beach, CA 92075 (619) 888-6510 FAX (619) 330-1870 dgilliss@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:40 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an From: "Craig Winkelmann, CFI" Mark: "Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an air show. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it." The intent of the above is correct, the semantic are not - it is the pilot receiving compensation, not the aircraft (owner). Part 61.133 allows a Commercial Pilot to receive compensation for flying "persons or property" as long as the pilot meets the other requirements of Part 61. This is where the Class 2 Medical is required. As a commercial rated pilot, if you do not renew your Second Class Medical , it becomes a Third Class Medical and you are now a Private Pilot. So, in essence, if you are a properly rated commercial pilot, you can accept fuel, oil, money and/or anything else the FAA considers compensation for flying a plane (experimental or not) to/from/in an airshow. Part 91.319 prohibits carrying persons or property for compensation or hire in an aircraft with an experimental certificate. This applies no matter what pilot rating the pilot flying the experimental aircraft holds. So, just don't do any VIP/media rides and you are OK. Or you can do them at your own expense. However, the FAA will place the burden of truth on you to prove that the fuel and oil you got for flying to/from the airshow is different from the fuel you burned, on your own dime, to fly a VIP. Cheers! Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3914#203914 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:10 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Lamar Clinic From: "Craig Winkelmann, CFI" At the present time, there are four (two sets of two) Strong Squadron Seat parachutes for use in a CJ or YAK available for sale on Barnstormers. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3916#203916 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:18 PM PST US From: Walter Lannon Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? Hi Dennis; Sorry, just got home. In my opinion you are correct. At every annual after the emergency gear down test I bleed the air from each actuator to ensure the next gear retraction will be normal. It takes about 5 minutes. It can be done by operating the brakes and flaps but may take up to 30 minutes to ensure the emergency down pressure system is reduced to zero. Even then you would be wise to do a normal gear cycle while still on the jacks. Cheers; Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:14 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > > ie: we have counter acting pressure on the shuttle valve. The emergency > system pressure has already moved the ball in the shuttle valve. The main > system pressure would be trying to move the ball the other way, but can't. > > Try it sometime. Put the airplane on jacks and raise the landing gear. > Now use the procedure for extending the gear with the emergency air. Once > the gear is down using the emergency air, try raising the gear normally. > If the gear won't go up it's because the ball shuttle valves to the > actuators are moved to the opposite side by the pressure from the > emergency system. Unless you relieve that pressure, the ball will stay > there blocking the main side from functioning properly. > > Walt Lannon - would you like to comment on this? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. Dennis Savarese" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > >> >> >> With pressure on the shuttle valve from the emergency side, the ball in >> the shuttle valve moves to the other side blocking off the main side. >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "keithmckinley" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:53 PM >> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? >> >> >>> >>> >>> Respectfully, I can't really think of a way that there would be a >>> problem unless there was a faulty shuttle valve. And you can hear in >>> move back and forth. But in any case a good reason to make sure the gear >>> is cycled on the emergency bottle while on jacks for the annual. >>> >>> K >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3869#203869 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:18 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? From: "keithmckinley" Gents, This exchange was great! It has really helped educate me on the air system. When can we start on the electrical system! [Shocked] Keith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3921#203921 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.