Yak-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/12/08


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:03 AM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (A. Dennis Savarese)
     2. 08:22 AM - Re: Minneapolis MN Yak-52 open for membership (yak-52@comcast.net)
     3. 10:16 AM - Re: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
     4. 11:05 AM - Air System Helpful Tip (Mozam)
     5. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
     6. 11:17 AM - Re: FW: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
     7. 11:56 AM - Re: Air System Helpful Tip (Peter K. Van Staagen)
     8. 01:59 PM - Re: Air System Helpful Tip (Keith McKinley)
     9. 05:04 PM - Tim Stevens (ByronMFox@aol.com)
    10. 06:06 PM - Re: Air System Helpful Tip (Roger Kemp MD)
    11. 06:35 PM - Re: Tim Stevens (Rico Jaeger)
    12. 11:50 PM - Original Yak accessories (NebraskaYak)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:03:08 AM PST US
    From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ?
    Yes, that is 100% true. The key point is you must relieve the pressure on the emergency side or the gear will not operate properly. That why the original post of opening the emergency knob to reduce the pressure in the emergency tank is not, in my opinion anyway, the best way to reduce the air pressure because of exactly the reasons stated. Crack one of the B-nuts and you won't have the possibility of not being able to retract the landing gear. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "dabear" <Dabear@damned.org> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > However, you can remove the air from the emergency side by closing the > emergency valve (engine/compressor not running), and actuating the > flaps/gear/brakes. Once the air is out of the emerg side of the system > the gear can be raised again. One of the biggest issues I have seen over > the years is coming out of annual, once the emerg gear extension is done. > It causes problems with the air system because the shuttle valves have > moved for the first time in a year. Any issues/weaknesses with the > shuttle valves will be seen just after annual. > > I'm wondering if I want to test the emergency system every month or so to > limit the issues. Thoughts? > > DaBear > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:14 PM > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? > > >> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> >> >> ie: we have counter acting pressure on the shuttle valve. The emergency >> system pressure has already moved the ball in the shuttle valve. The >> main system pressure would be trying to move the ball the other way, but >> can't. >> >> Try it sometime. Put the airplane on jacks and raise the landing gear. >> Now use the procedure for extending the gear with the emergency air. >> Once the gear is down using the emergency air, try raising the gear >> normally. If the gear won't go up it's because the ball shuttle valves to >> the actuators are moved to the opposite side by the pressure from the >> emergency system. Unless you relieve that pressure, the ball will stay >> there blocking the main side from functioning properly. >> >> Walt Lannon - would you like to comment on this? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> >> To: <yak-list@matronics.com> >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:57 PM >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? >> >> >>> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> >>> >>> With pressure on the shuttle valve from the emergency side, the ball in >>> the shuttle valve moves to the other side blocking off the main side. >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com> >>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:53 PM >>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? >>> >>> >>>> <keith.mckinley@townisp.com> >>>> >>>> Respectfully, I can't really think of a way that there would be a >>>> problem unless there was a faulty shuttle valve. And you can hear in >>>> move back and forth. But in any case a good reason to make sure the >>>> gear is cycled on the emergency bottle while on jacks for the annual. >>>> >>>> K >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3869#203869 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:22:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Minneapolis MN Yak-52 open for membership
    From: "yak-52@comcast.net" <yak-52@COMCAST.NET>
    Have one new member on board, we invite all future red-star pilots to have a look at the aircraft and discuss membership. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3963#203963 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/yakcrop_139.jpg


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:16:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ?
    From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
    What do you want to know about the electrical system, exactly? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of keithmckinley Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 23:33 Subject: Yak-List: Re: Adjusting Emergency Air Pressure in a CJ? --> <keith.mckinley@townisp.com> Gents, This exchange was great! It has really helped educate me on the air system. When can we start on the electrical system! [Shocked] Keith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3921#203921


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:05:52 AM PST US
    Subject: Air System Helpful Tip
    From: "Mozam" <sdalton@hughes.net>
    All, I have learned MUCH on this list, and want to contribute something back. My air system was leaking down over several days and it appeared (sounded like) the leak was in the pressure relief valve on the firewall. I had installed a new piston in the valve just last year and assumed the rubber tip had gone bad already. Since the pressure had leaked down to just a hair over 1 on the gauge I assumed the system was fully depleted. So I carefully removed the top of the valve and lifted the spring out. I looked inside the valve and saw the piston lying at the bottom of the valve. Suddenly, there was quick hiss of air and the piston fired out of the valve, ricocheted off my head and flew out the hanger. Luckily due to such a small amount of remaining pressure and a thick skull, no harm was done. The fact that the piston had been stuck, combined with the piston and valve having a black carbon-like coating, and the rubber tip being in good shape lead me to believe the piston was sticking in the cylinder. So, armed with a Q-tip I searched for something to clear the valve and piston with. Well, guess what worked great...MARVEL MYSTERY OIL!!!!! A couple drops of MMO removed all the deposits on the piston and valve and left them nice and shiny. Now my valve works great and I have absolutely no leak at all. Cheers, Steve Dalton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3992#203992


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:16:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows
    - an
    From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
    Craig, my question was: What FAA regulations says this? I would like to read it myself. "Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an air show. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it." Fact is that the above quote is not contained in ANY Federal Aviation Regulation. However, there is an FAA "Interpretation" of the rules that allows it. In that brief, the FAA specifically says: "No rides for passengers, no conflict with the federal aviation regulations. However, there are some areas for concern. For example, receiving fuel for an appearance or demonstration flight, or cash for that matter, is fine. However, accepting an offer like: "We'll add a few hundred gallons of fuel to your allocation, if you take Bobby Joe, one of our big sponsors, for a local flight." Now you are accepting fuel for a passenger-carrying flight-receiving compensation for transporting a passenger, this is essentially back to the "selling rides" scenario." Notice carefully (Dennis, it looks like I was right) the part that says "We'll add a few hundred gallons of fuel to your allocation, if you take Bobby Joe, one of our big sponsors, for a local flight". This is a case where it is clear that additional compensation has been given for a specific type of operation that meets the definition of "Commercial Operation". In the case of Greensboro, the FAA did not have that specific. Meaning, they did not have proof that ANYTHING ADDITIONAL was added to conduct flights where giving rides was involved. Thus, as I said before, if you can prove to the FAA that any fuel you receive or other types of compensation you receive were ONLY given as gratis... And not as a prerequisite for say AIRCRAFT RIDES, you pretty much have an airtight case. The smart move would be to also carry a full copy of that FAA News Letter with you, to show the local FAA dude, and then ask him: "Are you now telling me this FAA News Letter is inaccurate? Fine, I will now need to know YOUR full name, who you work for, your superior, etc." There is no question in my mind that the Greensboro FAA Representatives were in fact abusing their authority when they made their comments to the original gentleman. However, the truth of the matter is that people in authority do that all the time, which again is why I carry a recorder with me constantly. The trick is to catch THEM speeding... As in, catch them making a mistake. That said: If you have a letter from the provider explaining the reasons why you were given free "anything" and it does not mention carrying passengers and in fact specifically mentions that it was NEVER MEANT for that purpose, and the person giving the item and the person RECEIVING the item has these letters in hand, plus a copy of that FAA News Letter, I would say that you are pretty well covered. If the FAA person threatens you and you are polite and explain it all to him.... And he gets even more nasty (they usually will) and you have it recorded... You're covered! The very same FAA Letter mentions the issue of Private versus Commercial Pilots accepting free "anything" for showing up at an air show or exhibition. Their comment was that this matter is unclear, but that as long as you had a Commercial ticket you should be OK. In this case, if you could prove that you were going to the Air show anyway, and someone just came up and "gave you something" and you did not contract for it in advance, you could probably beat the FAA at that one too. Interesting comment about the Commercial Pilot License. I looked at mine the last time I went over one year on my Medical and it did not change to Private Pilot. Either did the records at the FAA! Somehow I still retained my Commercial Ticket! Sorry, just messing with you over your wording. If you have a Commercial Ticket, you retain that License even with NO medical. EXERCISING the PRIVILEGES of that license is another matter, and is what you MEANT to say. :-) You said: "Part 91.319 prohibits carrying persons or property for compensation or hire in an aircraft with an experimental certificate." True, unless one has a a letter of deviation under 91.319 (h). This letter of deviation typically is used only for being allowed to charge a person for training in an Experimental Exhibition aircraft. All training. Any kind of training. Which brings up the question: "Does getting a FAST card require training?" Well... Yes it does. Does the RPA usually put an experienced FAST qualified pilot in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft in order to train a new applicant? Well, yes... They usually do! Does the RPA charge for this training? Umm... Well.... Not sure of that! Ok well then, does money change hands in order to have this training? Well.. Yes it does. So would it be a reach to say that the RPA is conducting training in an Experimental Exhibition aircraft and is charging to do so, and these said same aircraft do NOT have letters of deviation under 91.319 (h) ??? Ummm.... Well some might see it that way yes. I'd say the same kind of person who said getting some free fuel also meant that carrying passengers was totally illegal. Something to think about Craig..... So... Fly all the people you like, and get free fuel too.. Best to be a Commercial pilot who is current in every way and also with letters and paperwork covering your ass that specifically addresses any "free stuff" you received. Now as for the RPA charging for flight instruction given in Experimental Exhibition aircraft..... Good question. I guess the answer is: "The money is a donation to our organization", etc., etc., but it still gets tricky if someone refuses to pay you and then you refuse to train them. It also gets tricky if you insist that you put an RPA FAST member in THEIR aircraft and charge them for the training. Hmmm. Some questions are best left unasked aren't they? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann, CFI Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 22:29 Subject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an --> <capav8r@gmail.com> Mark: "Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an air show. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it." The intent of the above is correct, the semantic are not - it is the pilot receiving compensation, not the aircraft (owner). Part 61.133 allows a Commercial Pilot to receive compensation for flying "persons or property" as long as the pilot meets the other requirements of Part 61. This is where the Class 2 Medical is required. As a commercial rated pilot, if you do not renew your Second Class Medical , it becomes a Third Class Medical and you are now a Private Pilot. So, in essence, if you are a properly rated commercial pilot, you can accept fuel, oil, money and/or anything else the FAA considers compensation for flying a plane (experimental or not) to/from/in an airshow. Part 91.319 prohibits carrying persons or property for compensation or hire in an aircraft with an experimental certificate. This applies no matter what pilot rating the pilot flying the experimental aircraft holds. So, just don't do any VIP/media rides and you are OK. Or you can do them at your own expense. However, the FAA will place the burden of truth on you to prove that the fuel and oil you got for flying to/from the airshow is different from the fuel you burned, on your own dime, to fly a VIP. Cheers! Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3914#203914


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:17:09 AM PST US
    Subject: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows
    - another blow to general aviation
    From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
    Thanks for sending that Bill. It was VERY informative and I learned a lot. Some good, some not so good. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 20:21 Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation Mark, I tried to send the entire file but Matronics said it was to big. I will try again. It is a lengthy article but I'll work on it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation --> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> Not to be argumentative, but you said: "Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an air show. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it." Excuse me... You say this based on what? Personal experience? Personal opinion? Conversation with an FAA Official? Point being, I would really like to see what you commented on in writing with an FAA sig. at the bottom of it. My problem is the amount of "differences in opinion" that seem to be legally allowable between FAA FISDO's. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:20 Subject: FW: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation ________________________________ From: dgilliss@earthlink.net [mailto:dgilliss@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: RE: FW: Yak-List: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - another blow to general aviation 91.147 is a continuation of 91.146-Charitable flights, except it addresses fee-based flights, a reg aimed at flights in light aircraft.The Feds have made charitable flights (money raising by giving rides) a nightmare, essentially eliminating it as a possibility due to the onerous requirements (drug testing, advanced notice, approval, etc.) For airshows, it is generally not applicable. Giving a VIP a flight is not a charitable flight and should not be a fee-based flight. Experimental Exhibition aircraft may receive compensation or fuel or both when flying or static at an airshow. The pilot must have a commercial license and class 2 medical to receive it. What becomes a problem is VIP rides. Sponsors often expect flights in military aircraft because their company gave money to the event. If the total fuel/compensation is contracted for in advance and there are no extra-fuel-for-more-rides agreements at the show there should be no problem. It is the flights for hire/fee that cause a problem. The FSDO inspector citing 91.147 is unknowledgeable. If he knew what he was doing he would cite 91.319, which has a blanket exclusion for flights for compensation in Experimental Exhibition aircraft, except for the exclusions in section (h) of that reg. The only way to fly VIPs legally, though marginally so, is to have a fixed amount of fuel/compensation for the appearance, whether flying or static, and then elect to take a passenger on a flight the pilot flies, effectively without compensation. If there is waivered airspace during the flight, virtually all FSDOs will prohibit passengers (the only exception in their handbooks is for required crew or safety of flight--a pilot rated in the plane on a formation flight, for example). On page 9 of the March 2006 issue of the FAA Aviation News (attached) is the Flying For Dollars article that discusses these issues. FAA inspectors have generally followed it, since it appeared in their magazine. DG Douglas Gilliss 249 South Pacific Coast Highway Solana Beach, CA 92075 (619) 888-6510 FAX (619) 330-1870 dgilliss@earthlink.net


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:56:22 AM PST US
    From: "Peter K. Van Staagen" <petervs@knology.net>
    Subject: Air System Helpful Tip
    You could have poked your eye out! -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mozam Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:05 PM Subject: Yak-List: Air System Helpful Tip All, I have learned MUCH on this list, and want to contribute something back. My air system was leaking down over several days and it appeared (sounded like) the leak was in the pressure relief valve on the firewall. I had installed a new piston in the valve just last year and assumed the rubber tip had gone bad already. Since the pressure had leaked down to just a hair over 1 on the gauge I assumed the system was fully depleted. So I carefully removed the top of the valve and lifted the spring out. I looked inside the valve and saw the piston lying at the bottom of the valve. Suddenly, there was quick hiss of air and the piston fired out of the valve, ricocheted off my head and flew out the hanger. Luckily due to such a small amount of remaining pressure and a thick skull, no harm was done. The fact that the piston had been stuck, combined with the piston and valve having a black carbon-like coating, and the rubber tip being in good shape lead me to believe the piston was sticking in the cylinder. So, armed with a Q-tip I searched for something to clear the valve and piston with. Well, guess what worked great...MARVEL MYSTERY OIL!!!!! A couple drops of MMO removed all the deposits on the piston and valve and left them nice and shiny. Now my valve works great and I have absolutely no leak at all. Cheers, Steve Dalton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3992#203992


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:59:08 PM PST US
    From: Keith McKinley <keith@mckinley.us>
    Subject: Re: Air System Helpful Tip
    Steve, Your post could not have been more timely! I just cleaned the pressure relief valve and changed the piston 1.5 hours ago. After the second flight I heard air leaking and found it was from that valve. Seemed to stop after it bleed down about 10 ATM's but I'm sure it was just that I couldn't hear the leak anymore. When I get back from my trip to Madrid I'll be looking at it armed with MMO! Keith On Sep 12, 2008, at 2:05 PM, Mozam wrote: > > All, > > I have learned MUCH on this list, and want to contribute something > back. > > My air system was leaking down over several days and it appeared > (sounded like) the leak was in the pressure relief valve on the > firewall. I had installed a new piston in the valve just last year > and assumed the rubber tip had gone bad already. > > Since the pressure had leaked down to just a hair over 1 on the > gauge I assumed the system was fully depleted. So I carefully > removed the top of the valve and lifted the spring out. I looked > inside the valve and saw the piston lying at the bottom of the valve. > > Suddenly, there was quick hiss of air and the piston fired out of > the valve, ricocheted off my head and flew out the hanger. Luckily > due to such a small amount of remaining pressure and a thick skull, > no harm was done. > > The fact that the piston had been stuck, combined with the piston > and valve having a black carbon-like coating, and the rubber tip > being in good shape lead me to believe the piston was sticking in > the cylinder. So, armed with a Q-tip I searched for something to > clear the valve and piston with. > > Well, guess what worked great...MARVEL MYSTERY OIL!!!!! > > A couple drops of MMO removed all the deposits on the piston and > valve and left them nice and shiny. Now my valve works great and I > have absolutely no leak at all. > > Cheers, > Steve Dalton > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3992#203992 > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:04:22 PM PST US
    From: ByronMFox@aol.com
    Subject: Tim Stevens
    Please contact me off list. Thanks, Blitz Byron M. Fox 80 Milland Drive Mill Valley, CA 94941 415-307-2405 ************** Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:06:38 PM PST US
    From: "Roger Kemp MD" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Air System Helpful Tip
    Amazing, dinitrobenzene acting as a solvent. doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mozam Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:05 PM Subject: Yak-List: Air System Helpful Tip All, I have learned MUCH on this list, and want to contribute something back. My air system was leaking down over several days and it appeared (sounded like) the leak was in the pressure relief valve on the firewall. I had installed a new piston in the valve just last year and assumed the rubber tip had gone bad already. Since the pressure had leaked down to just a hair over 1 on the gauge I assumed the system was fully depleted. So I carefully removed the top of the valve and lifted the spring out. I looked inside the valve and saw the piston lying at the bottom of the valve. Suddenly, there was quick hiss of air and the piston fired out of the valve, ricocheted off my head and flew out the hanger. Luckily due to such a small amount of remaining pressure and a thick skull, no harm was done. The fact that the piston had been stuck, combined with the piston and valve having a black carbon-like coating, and the rubber tip being in good shape lead me to believe the piston was sticking in the cylinder. So, armed with a Q-tip I searched for something to clear the valve and piston with. Well, guess what worked great...MARVEL MYSTERY OIL!!!!! A couple drops of MMO removed all the deposits on the piston and valve and left them nice and shiny. Now my valve works great and I have absolutely no leak at all. Cheers, Steve Dalton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3992#203992


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:35:38 PM PST US
    From: "Rico Jaeger" <rijaeger@wausau.k12.wi.us>
    Subject: Re: Tim Stevens
    Are you talking to me? >>> <ByronMFox@aol.com> 09/12/08 7:03 PM >>> Please contact me off list. Thanks, Blitz Byron M. Fox 80 Milland Drive Mill Valley, CA 94941 415-307-2405 ************** Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:50:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Original Yak accessories
    From: "NebraskaYak" <andrew.malousek@COMCAST.NET>
    Greetings all. Looking for any original Yak accessories like control locks, steel chocks, tool kits, tow bar, etc. Let me know if you want to get rid of any these. Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4053#204053




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