Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:56 AM - Re: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (Roger Kemp MD)
2. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (Yak Pilot)
3. 04:07 PM - Re: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (Yak Pilot)
4. 04:53 PM - Re: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (cjpilot710@aol.com)
5. 07:55 PM - Re: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows - an (Roger Kemp MD)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows |
- an
Hmm...all the more reason to simply avoid the Air Show circus and fly with
friends. Then I can fly who I want when I want on my dime and have to prove
crap to the FAA. Sure there are plenty of scenarios in which the sky Gestapo
can question in the non waivered airspace scenario.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann,
CFI
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at
airshows - an
Mark:
As this is not an RPA forum, I'll not get into any RPA stuff.
As for Experimental Aircraft, there are many deviations authorized by "The
Administrator" that allow for training and charging for flights - that was
not the intent of this thread.
As for the FAA, they will look at anything as compensation - free water,
food, oil, gas, smoke oil, tie-down spots, prostitutes, what have you. If
you are issued a violation for flying a person in an aircraft for
compensation, it had better not be a Experimental Aircraft, and you had
better be a Commercial Pilot (with a Second Class medical so you can
exercise the privileges of said license :D ) You will be guilty until you
can prove that the fuel in your tank that you used to fly the VIP is
different than the fuel you got for being in or at the airshow. All the
letter you reference will be is an exhibit that your lawyer can use to try
and defend your case.
If the FAA can use the logic for CAP that I posted in another thread, where
the simple matter of logging flight time was compensation, they can use
anything.
Oh, and for the Commercial ticket, there are scenarios the examiner I took
my checkride with that would seem to be valid operations with a Commercial
License but were not as they moved you into a Part 135 operation (eg.
providing the pilot services AND the airplane for a flight for which you
were compensated).
And for another thing, it would be best if you were an AOPA member and took
advantage of their legal protection program or you may have a large legal
bill to prove your point with the FAA.
Regards,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4142#204142
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows |
- an
Craig, you said: =0A=0A"As this is not an RPA forum, I'll not get into any
RPA stuff." =0A=0ADoes this mean just for this topic, or for every RPA topi
c... because this is a first.- Fact is, there are all kinds of training g
iven in YAK-52's.... so whether people can charge for doing it legally rema
ins a topic which you might not want to discuss, but it clearly is-releva
nt.- =0A=0AAs to the FAA, even though they are a bunch of jerks from time
to time, the overall legal system remains the same and the burden of proof
is upon them.- It is not up to you to prove your innocence, even though
it is a nice thing to have in hand should the time come!- What would be n
ice to know is just how many cases of cases such as the one under discussio
n have actually been carried out?- In this particular story, the FAA made
noise, but did nothing.- =0A=0AAs to what you better have, should have,
will have, "or else"... I generally do not think that way.- Power begets
power, and individual FISDO's crossing the line into areas where they shoul
d not go is pretty much legend.- As far as the letter goes, of course it
is for your lawyer or yourself to defend your case.- So is a voice record
er, which goes a LONG LONG way.- Maybe you think that if you do all the t
hings that you are suggesting, the FAA will just leave you alone.- Wrong
answer.- When these guys get on a roll, they roll OVER everything in thei
r path.- If the FAA accuses you of taking free fuel and then "paying it b
ack" by flying around passengers, then forewarned is forearmed.- There ar
e TONS of things you can do in this regard, some of which I have mentioned,
some of which I have not.- For example, who says the person giving you t
he fuel has to record what N number aircraft it went into?- Yes, I know..
. they are pretty much required to
but....-... mistakes can happen as well.- Just rolling over and giving
up is against my nature... but to each his own.- Since I now know more a
bout this subject than I ever did before, I will use every trick in the boo
k to keep the FAA from being able to use it against me.- =0A=0AAs to your
CAP example, I did not see it, but can imagine.- You're absolutely right
, the FAA can take any darn thing in the world to make it look like you are
a criminal.- But they can go too far and we all know that too.- In the
cases we have talked about, they are simply "making shit up".- When that
happens it is time to work together to come up with a good plan and not to
run away our tail stuck between our legs.- Again, just my point of view.
- =0A=0AI already have the AOPA legal plan, but thanks for the suggestion
.- I have already talked to them- and others... many times.- =0A=0AMa
rk Bitterlich=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Craig W
inkelmann, CFI" <capav8r@gmail.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sa
turday, September 13, 2008 3:57:13 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger ca
rrying flights for compensation at airshows - an=0A=0A--> Yak-List message
posted by: "Craig Winkelmann, CFI" <capav8r@gmail.com>=0A=0AMark:=0A=0AAs t
his is not an RPA forum, I'll not get into any RPA stuff.=0A=0AAs for Exper
imental Aircraft, there are many deviations authorized by "The Administrato
r" that allow for training and charging for flights - that was not the inte
nt of this thread.=0A=0AAs for the FAA, they will look at anything as compe
nsation - free water, food, oil, gas, smoke oil, tie-down spots, prostitute
s, what have you.- If you are issued a violation for flying a person in a
n aircraft for compensation, it had better not be a Experimental Aircraft,
and you had better be a Commercial Pilot (with a Second Class medical so yo
u can exercise the privileges of said license- :D )- You will be guilty
until you can prove that the fuel in your tank that you used to fly the VI
P is different than the fuel you got for being in or at the airshow.- All
the letter you reference will be is an exhibit that your lawyer can use to
try and defend your case.=0A=0AIf the FAA can use the logic for CAP that I
posted in another thread, where the simple matter of logging flight time w
as compensation, they can use anything.=0A=0AOh, and for the Commercial tic
ket, there are scenarios the examiner I took my checkride with that would s
eem to be valid operations with a Commercial License but were not as they m
oved you into a Part 135 operation (eg. providing the pilot services AND th
e airplane for a flight for which you were compensated).=0A=0AAnd for anoth
er thing, it would be best if you were an AOPA member and took advantage of
their legal protection program or you may have a large legal bill to prove
your point with the FAA.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0ACraig=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this
topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 414
===========
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows |
- an
Doc, is that your tongue in your cheek I hear rattling around there?- =0A
-=0AThe thing I find so interesting is that the WHOLE CONCEPT of "Experim
ental Exhibition" is to EXHIBIT YOUR AIRCRAFT AT EVENTS!- That is what th
e FAA designated your aircraft to do for heavens sake!- So you take some
free fuel to bring it there, which in no way represents even a LARGE percen
tage of the overall cost to maintain the aircraft, keep current in it, and
then take it to some show... and they say that since you took fuel, you can
not give rides.- If you take no "anything"... including air for your tir
es I suppose, or even instructions to where the bathroom is,- well then..
. possibly maybe you could be safe giving rides.... but the experts think t
hat it is just best to fore go the rides.-- Really.- =0A-=0AThis so
unds to me very much like people who think the only reason to bring aircraf
t to such an event anyway is to fly mass formation flights and nothing else
.- Possibly add some acro to the list and maybe a few photo sessions.-
Then hey... as long as you have that commercial ticket you can-fill up th
e tanks, grab as much oil as you can, and haul ass with a smile on your fac
e.-- "We now be "airshow performers" .... well fine, if that is what ma
kes you happy.- =0A-=0ANo Craig, I am not talking about you.- I have
a lot of respect for you as a person and a pilot.- However, I do NOT agre
e with your point of view.- So.. what else is new?--:-)---Sorry
!=0A-=0A--- Aviation in this country EVOLVED from people taking oth
ers up for rides.- The Young Eagles program is STILL all about that.- T
here is no question that the FAA does not really like the idea of Jo Pilot
giving rides, and if they can come up with some reason to disallow it, they
will.- In fact they have.- =0A-=0ASo PERSONALLY..... I would rather
show up as a regular old pilot... take NOTHING for free and give as many ri
des as I possibly can, because that is what aviation is all about.- Again
, that is in MY opinion.- =0A-=0AWhat we all SHOULD do is to write lett
ers to the FAA about this, and see what they say.- Following that are let
ters to the people we have ELECTED, which is a category the FAA does NOT fi
t into.- Something they and others usually forget.- =0A-=0AYour own m
ileage may vary.- =0A-=0AMark Bitterlich=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A-
---- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Roger Kemp MD <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:55:15 AM
=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation a
doc@mindspring.com>=0A=0AHmm...all the more reason to simply avoid the Air
Show circus and fly with=0Afriends. Then I can fly who I want when I want o
n my dime and have to prove=0Acrap to the FAA. Sure there are plenty of sce
narios in which the sky Gestapo=0Acan question in the non waivered airspace
scenario.=0ADoc=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-yak-list-ser
ver@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Craig Winkelmann,=0ACFI=0ASent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:57 PM=0AT
o: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying fligh
"Craig Winkelmann, CFI" <capav8r@gmail.com>=0A=0AMark:=0A=0AAs this is not
an RPA forum, I'll not get into any RPA stuff.=0A=0AAs for Experimental Ai
rcraft, there are many deviations authorized by "The=0AAdministrator" that
allow for training and charging for flights - that was=0Anot the intent of
this thread.=0A=0AAs for the FAA, they will look at anything as compensatio
n - free water,=0Afood, oil, gas, smoke oil, tie-down spots, prostitutes, w
hat have you.- If=0Ayou are issued a violation for flying a person in an
aircraft for=0Acompensation, it had better not be a Experimental Aircraft,
and you had=0Abetter be a Commercial Pilot (with a Second Class medical so
you can=0Aexercise the privileges of said license- :D )- You will be gu
ilty until you=0Acan prove that the fuel in your tank that you used to fly
the VIP is=0Adifferent than the fuel you got for being in or at the airshow
.- All the=0Aletter you reference will be is an exhibit that your lawyer
can use to try=0Aand defend your case.=0A=0AIf the FAA can use the logic fo
r CAP that I posted in another thread, where=0Athe simple matter of logging
flight time was compensation, they can use=0Aanything.=0A=0AOh, and for th
e Commercial ticket, there are scenarios the examiner I took=0Amy checkride
with that would seem to be valid operations with a Commercial=0ALicense bu
t were not as they moved you into a Part 135 operation (eg.=0Aproviding the
pilot services AND the airplane for a flight for which you=0Awere compensa
ted).=0A=0AAnd for another thing, it would be best if you were an AOPA memb
er and took=0Aadvantage of their legal protection program or you may have a
large legal=0Abill to prove your point with the FAA.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0ACr
aig=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics
.com/viewtopic.php?p 4142#204142=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
-========================
========================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows |
- an
Than in a sence they (feds) have beat you.? Of course not all feds are this way.?
I am not being Pollyanna but its not all?that bad at there.? There some FSDOs
who have jerks in them or jerks who run them.? With the bombers, we seem to
always have someone in SC who keeps trying to make some kind of point, to which
we simply point them to the FSDO who "controls" us.? That FSDO backs us 100%
The most "refreshing" fed I ever met at a airshow, at the briefing simply got up
and asked 'Is everyone here?that is?getting fuel, have a commercial ticket and
a current 2nd class medical?? - - - - OK, I assume you do.? I don't need to
see your stuff.? BUT, if something happens, I'll hang your asses so far up on
the pole - - - - -".? That was good enough for me because it showed a level of
trust on their part.
The airshow flying is fun to me.? I love it.? I keep meeting new people all the
time.? I love the adoration of the women and kids.? I am a ham pure and simple.?
At my age what's left!? Even the best laid plans thought during the briefings
sometimes don't work, BUT you adjust.? You get to know the different airbosses,
how they run things and what they will & will not do.? You build a trust
amongst them.? They get to know you by name and what they can trust your group
with.? You all end up making a show.? That show is 99.999% of the time a positive
thing for aviation.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Kemp MD <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 8:55 am
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows
- an
Hmm...all the more reason to simply avoid the Air Show circus and fly with
friends. Then I can fly who I want when I want on my dime and have to prove
crap to the FAA. Sure there are plenty of scenarios in which the sky Gestapo
can question in the non waivered airspace scenario.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann,
CFI
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at
airshows - an
Mark:
As this is not an RPA forum, I'll not get into any RPA stuff.
As for Experimental Aircraft, there are many deviations authorized by "The
Administrator" that allow for training and charging for flights - that was
not the intent of this thread.
As for the FAA, they will look at anything as compensation - free water,
food, oil, gas, smoke oil, tie-down spots, prostitutes, what have you. If
you are issued a violation for flying a person in an aircraft for
compensation, it had better not be a Experimental Aircraft, and you had
better be a Commercial Pilot (with a Second Class medical so you can
exercise the privileges of said license :D ) You will be guilty until you
can prove that the fuel in your tank that you used to fly the VIP is
different than the fuel you got for being in or at the airshow. All the
letter you reference will be is an exhibit that your lawyer can use to try
and defend your case.
If the FAA can use the logic for CAP that I posted in another thread, where
the simple matter of logging flight time was compensation, they can use
anything.
Oh, and for the Commercial ticket, there are scenarios the examiner I took
my checkride with that would seem to be valid operations with a Commercial
License but were not as they moved you into a Part 135 operation (eg.
prov
iding the pilot services AND the airplane for a flight for which you
were compensated).
And for another thing, it would be best if you were an AOPA member and took
advantage of their legal protection program or you may have a large legal
bill to prove your point with the FAA.
Regards,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4142#204142
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at airshows |
- an
Pappy,
In a sense they have. That and encountering clueless pilots trying to land
at the air show. Pad locked on entering downwind hearing or ignoring
position calls from myself already in the pattern. And yes, you are a ham.
:>))
But saying my comment about avoiding air shows was tongue in cheek. It was
also made based a personal experience and on the experience a friend had
after having a 3 year old break away from his bozo dad and run straight for
his prop. I decided I did not need that kind of liability at some of these
local air shows. He killed his engine before the kid got to his plane but
what if he had not seen that child running across the static ramp? I have
had spectators walk near the nose of my Aircraft with a marshaler standing
out in front as I was taxing to leave the show after sitting static. Who is
going to be responsible for that law suit if one of those spectators got
hurt by my aircraft? Part of that was my fault for having a career that
required me to be back in the office on Monday morning.
The times I have done static in the guard or on active duty for that matter,
we did not depart until the morning after the show. The ramp was empty
except for our support folks. So never had that experience with the squadron
jets. Only when I took my personal bird did it happen.
My friend, I do this for fun. I've had plenty of adoration from the crowds
in my life to fill that square and pay for a number of T shirts. I'm just
happy boring holes in the sky entertaining myself filling my weekly" air
under my ass" square.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at
airshows - an
Than in a sence they (feds) have beat you. Of course not all feds are this
way. I am not being Pollyanna but its not all that bad at there. There
some FSDOs who have jerks in them or jerks who run them. With the bombers,
we seem to always have someone in SC who keeps trying to make some kind of
point, to which we simply point them to the FSDO who "controls" us. That
FSDO backs us 100%
The most "refreshing" fed I ever met at a airshow, at the briefing simply
got up and asked 'Is everyone here that is getting fuel, have a commercial
ticket and a current 2nd class medical? - - - - OK, I assume you do. I
don't need to see your stuff. BUT, if something happens, I'll hang your
asses so far up on the pole - - - - -". That was good enough for me because
it showed a level of trust on their part.
The airshow flying is fun to me. I love it. I keep meeting new people all
the time. I love the adoration of the women and kids. I am a ham pure and
simple. At my age what's left! Even the best laid plans thought during the
briefings sometimes don't work, BUT you adjust. You get to know the
different airbosses, how they run things and what they will & will not do.
You build a trust amongst them. They get to know you by name and what they
can trust your group with. You all end up making a show. That show is
99.999% of the time a positive thing for aviation.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Kemp MD <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 8:55 am
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at
airshows - an
Hmm...all the more reason to simply avoid the Air Show circus and fly with
friends. Then I can fly who I want when I want on my dime and have to prove
crap to the FAA. Sure there are plenty of scenarios in which the sky Gestapo
can question in the non waivered airspace scenario.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann,
CFI
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Passenger carrying flights for compensation at
airshows - an
Mark:
As this is not an RPA forum, I'll not get into any RPA stuff.
As for Experimental Aircraft, there are many deviations authorized by "The
Administrator" that allow for training and charging for flights - that was
not the intent of this thread.
As for the FAA, they will look at anything as compensation - free water,
food, oil, gas, smoke oil, tie-down spots, prostitutes, what have you. If
you are issued a violation for flying a person in an aircraft for
compensation, it had better not be a Experimental Aircraft, and you had
better be a Commercial Pilot (with a Second Class medical so you can
exercise the privileges of said license :D ) You will be guilty until you
can prove that the fuel in your tank that you used to fly the VIP is
different than the fuel you got for being in or at the airshow. All the
letter you reference will be is an exhibit that your lawyer can use to try
and defend your case.
If the FAA can use the logic for CAP that I posted in another thread, where
the simple matter of logging flight time was compensation, they can use
anything.
Oh, and for the Commercial ticket, there are scenarios the examiner I took
my checkride with that would seem to be valid operations with a Commercial
License but were not as they moved you into a Part 135 operation (eg.
providing the pilot services AND the airplane for a flight for which you
were compensated).
And for another thing, it would be best if you were an AOPA member and took
advantage of their legal protection program or you may have a large legal
bill to prove your point with the FAA.
Regards,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4142#204142
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