Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:03 AM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (Robert Langford)
3. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (Roger Kemp MD)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (KingCJ6@aol.com)
5. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (Forrest Johnson)
6. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (Mark Davis)
7. 05:35 PM - Forget Obummer and Mac (doug sapp)
8. 05:48 PM - Re: Values (Herb Coussons)
9. 05:54 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 05:54 PM - Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (Craig Winkelmann)
11. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 06:09 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (DAVID STROUD)
13. 06:36 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
14. 07:02 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (jblake207@COMCAST.NET)
15. 07:02 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (jblake207@COMCAST.NET)
16. 08:02 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (Roger Kemp MD)
17. 09:22 PM - Re: Forget Obummer and Mac (Tom Elliott)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
With regards to Peter's statement "The knob feels about the same,", he
is of course 100% correct. One of the things that I did was remove the
flap handle ball and grind flats on 4 sides of the ball to give it a
somewhat different feel.
Then I created a gear/flap warning "system" using a simple piezoelectric
alarm device which operates on 28 volts and puts out a high frequency
shrill at about 90 DB
(http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62399&cp 3
2058.2032230.2032266&parentPage=family) and some 1N4001 diodes. I
interfaced the alarm circuit to the flap down microswitch and the nose
gear microswitch and of course, ground and 28 volts. If the flaps go
down before the gear is down, the alarm sounds off. And it is loud!
It's not 100% fool proof, but it's certainly better than forgetting the
gear altogether. Although I haven't added it yet, a red or yellow lamp
could easily be added to the instrument panel next to the airspeed
indicator. It would also come on with the alarm. Once the gear goes
down, the alarm turns off.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter K. Van Staagen
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<petervs@knology.net>
About gear up landings... I've almost done this twice when another
plane
entered the pattern without saying a word. Fortunately my instructor
drilled
in multiple gear checks and I caught it on final. What I had done both
times
was put the flaps down instead of the gear. The knob feels about the
same,
the plane decelerates, the air systems makes that familiar noise. Then
when
I got slowed down I put the flaps up, thinking I was putting them
down.
Again, the knob feels the same and there is that familiar sound. But
the
plane did not fly right. It was hard to slow down. I fly a close
pattern and
steep decent and so the throttle was at the idle stop and I was still
fast.
I was looking around for clues and saw the three red lights. I looked
at
them and thought ok the gear lights are red, wait... red is bad, red
is bad,
holy crap the handle is in the up position. I could not understand why
until
much later. I knew I had put it down. I got the gear down, checked the
poles
and lights and handle three more times. Then on short final realized
my
flaps were up. I landed with the flaps up I wasn't about to touch
anything
until I understood what had happened.
About warning horns. They don't always work. Ask my friend who landed
his
twin commanche gear up. He was task saturated and annoyed by the
"stall
warning" going off all the way from short final to touchdown. He never
realized the tone was not the stall warning but actually the gear
warning.
Avoiding a gear up landing is all about discipline. Here are my rules.
1) If I have a GIB I brief them that the only thing they have to do on
the
flight is to make sure I put the gear down. I tell them to make sure
the
three lights are green and the two poles are up. I tell them to tell
me that
over the intercom. No one rides without duties.
2) I make three gear checks, one before I roll off the perch, one on
base
and the other on short final.
3) I make two announcements. One on base over the radio that gear is
down
and pressure is up. One to the GIB, "Three Green, Three Poles." I
expect the
reply "Three Green, two poles." I even make the radio call at
controlled
fields after being cleared to land. I want that gear check on the
towers
tape recording, and I don=92t want to change my discipline just
because I am
landing somewhere different.
4) On short final I remember the saying "Three Green over the Green."
5) In formation flight I check everyone's gear. I make sure everyone
makes a
gear check radio call. If my wingman let's me land gear up, he is
paying for
it!
6) If anything unusual happens in the pattern, get out the check list
and
start over.
7) If you cannot remember checking the gear all three times the next
day,
you have to severely reprimand yourself.
For fun, let=92s everyone list the tools they use to for gear checks.
Squatch out.
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=----
__|__ ----=(*)=----
__|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Doc. Let me know how you make out. I agree that over a grand is a
lot of
money. Too freaking much money to be honest. You can build some
fancy
stuff for a grand. I need to rethink this. Possibly ultrasonic or
laser
might be more effective and cheaper. And here I was all gung-ho for a
little while.
Don't talk to me about the market.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 3:32 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
No, not missing anything and I see your logic as hopefully you see
mine. The
squat switch does not have to be on the sleeve of the strut but could
be on
the scissor although the best place for it is on the barrel of the
strut. At
the tech order strut operating pressure (I forget the numbers), my
struts
collapse about 1/4-1/2 in with wt. on them. That may not be enough to
be
practical for a WOW switch.
The ground proximity warning sonar is practical and $1295 is
reasonable I
guess. Just means I have to leave off another accessory planned for
the
winter if I chose to install this. For now the check list still works
and my
insurance rates remain the same. Amaratizing the $1300 over the $50 to
$100
extra I would get off my $1800 annual premiums means at best it would
be 13
years before I could re-coupe the investment in the GPWS. I could bend
the
plane doing something else over that time too.
Self insuring, investing the premiums in this Bear market, and simply
waiting out the recovery also means that I could make enough over the
next
10 years to replace a couple of aircraft too. The new housing sales
pending
starts are already up 30% in this "bad economy". Did not see that on
the big
"three" either did you.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:20 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Doc, in order to have a WOW switch work, something has to MOVE. The
distance it MOVES has to enough to make a SWITCH activate or
deactivate.
Think about the 50 .... what moves? The struts when inflated
correctly can
be so stiff as to not move at all on landing. Yes, the slide lock
can be
replaced with an electronic version (solenoid). Headset noises are no
problem either. A Rad/Alt could also be used instead of GPWS, but at
more
expense.
The simple fact though is that if you have a GPWS, you really do not
need a
weight on wheels switch. Just some control logic. When the gear is
down
and you are below min altititude, the solenoid locks the pin so the
gear can
not be raised and audio alerts are disabled. When the aircraft takes
off,
and gets above minimum alt. then the gear lock pin UNLOCKS, the gear
can
then be raised, and audio alerts are re-activated.
Am I missing something?
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:55 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Someone yesterday said a WOW switch would not work on the YAK? Why? We
are
talking about a weight on wheels switch. I disables the up circuit on
the
gear handle. Since we have a manual slide lock a simple micro circuit
could
be added to the slide lock that when there is weight on the wheels and
the
slide lock is open there is gear warning horn or beep beep in the head
set.
With enough bucks you could even have a synthetic "Bitching Betty"
saying
"check gear, check gear". (or whatever you want to say, like" take
your
&*^%$#@ hands of the gear handle!") Yes, when you slide the slide lock
open
for TO you would get that warning also. For a few folks I have seen
TO, that
may not be such a bad idea either. The radar altimeter could also be
incorporated for a ground proximity warning also on landing warning of
gear
up landing when there is no weight on the wheels.
Just a thought.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:12 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Guys,
As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been
available for years. The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled
cost
and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to
me".
TJ and I have talked about all this before. But if we are going to to
drag
this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my
opinion,
knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.
At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and
feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want
to be
proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across
the
board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums. This upcharge would
be
refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.
Reading
TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could
enjoy a
reduction of our annual premiums also. As unpopular as it may be to
suggest
yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may
be
the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the
problem of gear up landings.
Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt
with
in another manner.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@fuse.net>
wrote:
tjyak50 wrote:
> We've gone around and around on this subject for years.
> There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't
perfect.
>
> So nobody does anything.
Build it and they will come.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 2
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|
| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
I did the same with the gear handle. Sliced each side off with a disc
grinder, made it resemble a wheel somewhat. Haven't landed with the gear
up since, or before for that matter. this makes me nervous!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
With regards to Peter's statement "The knob feels about the same,", he
is of course 100% correct. One of the things that I did was remove the
flap handle ball and grind flats on 4 sides of the ball to give it a
somewhat different feel.
Then I created a gear/flap warning "system" using a simple
piezoelectric alarm device which operates on 28 volts and puts out a
high frequency shrill at about 90 DB
(http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62399&cp 3
2058.2032230.2032266&parentPage=family) and some 1N4001 diodes. I
interfaced the alarm circuit to the flap down microswitch and the nose
gear microswitch and of course, ground and 28 volts. If the flaps go
down before the gear is down, the alarm sounds off. And it is loud!
It's not 100% fool proof, but it's certainly better than forgetting the
gear altogether. Although I haven't added it yet, a red or yellow lamp
could easily be added to the instrument panel next to the airspeed
indicator. It would also come on with the alarm. Once the gear goes
down, the alarm turns off.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter K. Van Staagen
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<petervs@knology.net>
About gear up landings... I've almost done this twice when another
plane
entered the pattern without saying a word. Fortunately my instructor
drilled
in multiple gear checks and I caught it on final. What I had done
both times
was put the flaps down instead of the gear. The knob feels about the
same,
the plane decelerates, the air systems makes that familiar noise.
Then when
I got slowed down I put the flaps up, thinking I was putting them
down.
Again, the knob feels the same and there is that familiar sound. But
the
plane did not fly right. It was hard to slow down. I fly a close
pattern and
steep decent and so the throttle was at the idle stop and I was
still fast.
I was looking around for clues and saw the three red lights. I
looked at
them and thought ok the gear lights are red, wait... red is bad, red
is bad,
holy crap the handle is in the up position. I could not understand
why until
much later. I knew I had put it down. I got the gear down, checked
the poles
and lights and handle three more times. Then on short final realized
my
flaps were up. I landed with the flaps up I wasn't about to touch
anything
until I understood what had happened.
About warning horns. They don't always work. Ask my friend who
landed his
twin commanche gear up. He was task saturated and annoyed by the
"stall
warning" going off all the way from short final to touchdown. He
never
realized the tone was not the stall warning but actually the gear
warning.
Avoiding a gear up landing is all about discipline. Here are my
rules.
1) If I have a GIB I brief them that the only thing they have to do
on the
flight is to make sure I put the gear down. I tell them to make sure
the
three lights are green and the two poles are up. I tell them to tell
me that
over the intercom. No one rides without duties.
2) I make three gear checks, one before I roll off the perch, one on
base
and the other on short final.
3) I make two announcements. One on base over the radio that gear is
down
and pressure is up. One to the GIB, "Three Green, Three Poles." I
expect the
reply "Three Green, two poles." I even make the radio call at
controlled
fields after being cleared to land. I want that gear check on the
towers
tape recording, and I don=92t want to change my discipline just
because I am
landing somewhere different.
4) On short final I remember the saying "Three Green over the
Green."
5) In formation flight I check everyone's gear. I make sure everyone
makes a
gear check radio call. If my wingman let's me land gear up, he is
paying for
it!
6) If anything unusual happens in the pattern, get out the check
list and
start over.
7) If you cannot remember checking the gear all three times the next
day,
you have to severely reprimand yourself.
For fun, let=92s everyone list the tools they use to for gear
checks.
Squatch out.
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=----
__|__ ----=(*)=----
__|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Doc. Let me know how you make out. I agree that over a grand is a
lot of
money. Too freaking much money to be honest. You can build some
fancy
stuff for a grand. I need to rethink this. Possibly ultrasonic or
laser
might be more effective and cheaper. And here I was all gung-ho for
a
little while.
Don't talk to me about the market.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 3:32 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
No, not missing anything and I see your logic as hopefully you see
mine. The
squat switch does not have to be on the sleeve of the strut but
could be on
the scissor although the best place for it is on the barrel of the
strut. At
the tech order strut operating pressure (I forget the numbers), my
struts
collapse about 1/4-1/2 in with wt. on them. That may not be enough
to be
practical for a WOW switch.
The ground proximity warning sonar is practical and $1295 is
reasonable I
guess. Just means I have to leave off another accessory planned for
the
winter if I chose to install this. For now the check list still
works and my
insurance rates remain the same. Amaratizing the $1300 over the $50
to $100
extra I would get off my $1800 annual premiums means at best it
would be 13
years before I could re-coupe the investment in the GPWS. I could
bend the
plane doing something else over that time too.
Self insuring, investing the premiums in this Bear market, and
simply
waiting out the recovery also means that I could make enough over
the next
10 years to replace a couple of aircraft too. The new housing sales
pending
starts are already up 30% in this "bad economy". Did not see that on
the big
"three" either did you.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:20 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Doc, in order to have a WOW switch work, something has to MOVE.
The
distance it MOVES has to enough to make a SWITCH activate or
deactivate.
Think about the 50 .... what moves? The struts when inflated
correctly can
be so stiff as to not move at all on landing. Yes, the slide lock
can be
replaced with an electronic version (solenoid). Headset noises are
no
problem either. A Rad/Alt could also be used instead of GPWS, but
at more
expense.
The simple fact though is that if you have a GPWS, you really do not
need a
weight on wheels switch. Just some control logic. When the gear is
down
and you are below min altititude, the solenoid locks the pin so the
gear can
not be raised and audio alerts are disabled. When the aircraft
takes off,
and gets above minimum alt. then the gear lock pin UNLOCKS, the gear
can
then be raised, and audio alerts are re-activated.
Am I missing something?
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:55 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Someone yesterday said a WOW switch would not work on the YAK? Why?
We are
talking about a weight on wheels switch. I disables the up circuit
on the
gear handle. Since we have a manual slide lock a simple micro
circuit could
be added to the slide lock that when there is weight on the wheels
and the
slide lock is open there is gear warning horn or beep beep in the
head set.
With enough bucks you could even have a synthetic "Bitching Betty"
saying
"check gear, check gear". (or whatever you want to say, like" take
your
&*^%$#@ hands of the gear handle!") Yes, when you slide the slide
lock open
for TO you would get that warning also. For a few folks I have seen
TO, that
may not be such a bad idea either. The radar altimeter could also be
incorporated for a ground proximity warning also on landing warning
of gear
up landing when there is no weight on the wheels.
Just a thought.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:12 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Guys,
As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been
available for years. The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled
cost
and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen
to me".
TJ and I have talked about all this before. But if we are going to
to drag
this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my
opinion,
knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of
coffee.
At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and
feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY
want to be
proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it
across the
board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums. This upcharge would
be
refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.
Reading
TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could
enjoy a
reduction of our annual premiums also. As unpopular as it may be to
suggest
yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this
may be
the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on
the
problem of gear up landings.
Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be
delt with
in another manner.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@fuse.net>
wrote:
tjyak50 wrote:
> We've gone around and around on this subject for years.
> There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't
perfect.
>
> So nobody does anything.
Build it and they will come.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronicsnbsp; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
nbsp; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
10/9/2008 9:44 AM
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
BGTPF (It starts with my radio call on initiation of base turn) The radio
call triggers my second check. The first began on downwind after the break
turn.
B- Base radio call
G- Gear
T- Three Green (Trike) or Two Green ( Tail Dragger)
P- Pressure (works for hydraulics and air)/ Prop
F- Flaps
Gump also works
G- Gas
U- Undercarriage
M- Mixture
P- Prop
You do not need flaps to land in many aircraft. Ours included.
Now, I'm curious, in the YAK the Gear and the Flap handles are positioned
differently in different quadrants of the cockpit. Why are you starting your
landing checklist with moving your hand back from the prop rather than
moving it forward from the prop and manifold pressure. Slow the A/C to 160
clicks, set the pitch at 70% and manifold pressure at 400 mmHg and then the
left hand should move forward to the left quadrant of the instrument panel
to activate the gear. Only after the gear are down, three or two green are
seen and if equipped three barber poles checked do I move my left hand back
to the flaps at or past the initiation of the base turn. On final, I run the
gear check a last time.
PUFA works too! Just sounds a bit gay. Oh, that's PUFTA! :>)) Not to be
confused.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Willson
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:12 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Hear Hear.
Don't want any more premiums over here in the UK thank you, and why should
an aircraft design be changed that has been happily operating for several
years (with the correct pilot training - see below) just because a few
pilots are not on the ball (incorrect or lack of training?).
We all know the old adage."there are pilots who have, and pilots who will."
(make a gear up landing), but in my opinion... read on.
Whatever happened to a good checkout by a good instructor to make sure those
PUFA drills are burnt into the brain?
THAT is the only way to prevent a gear up landing AND it also prevents
landing with NO AIR PRESSURE (no brakes) (as recently done by someone in the
UK here because they didn't APPLY their UNDERSTANDING of the emergency
gear/air system).
If you forget all other checks, irrespective of whether you're taking
shortcuts by coming straight in (instead of downwind) or doing constant
aspect (curved) approaches - the rule is to do the life-saver CONFIRMATION
check at 300 feet: PUFA (Prop [Full fine], Undercarriage [ALREADY down and
locked - 3 greens AND three soldiers], Flaps [ALREADY down], AIR [sufficient
for braking].
No undercarriage at that stage = go-around. End of story. No messing about
trying to get it down. Forget it. GO AROUND and start again because if
you've forgotten that, the chances are you've missed a check and have
forgotten something else..
Nigel (Yak52 aerobatic display pilot and Class Rating Instructor)
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Forrest Johnson
Sent: 10 October 2008 01:50
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
There is no PROBLEM , it is all about pilot attitude .
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Well, there you go Mark, you'll installed an approved system and your going
to get a reduction in your premiums. That's exactly what I was talking
about. But that's only you, many others will not do anything and will
continue to have gear up accidents which will cause the premiums to remain
high. That's my point, unless it's "accross the board" you will not see and
reduction in rates. Tom, want to weigh in here?
OK Mark, we have heard your criticism of the idea, now lets hear YOUR
suggestions as to how you think it's best to solve the problem.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Sounds fair to me! :-)
Mark
p.s. I'm going to do it Tom.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of tjyak50
Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:40 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Fine.
Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance premium.
W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.
I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not really
all that good at flying..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8018#208018
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
Check out Bill Blackwell's red oversized machined aluminum gear wheel --
hard to mistake it for the flap knob and much easier to grab without lookin
g.
Dave
In a message dated 10/10/2008 5:49:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
randmyak52@bellsouth.net writes:
I did the same with the gear handle. Sliced each side off with a disc grind
er
, made it resemble a wheel somewhat. Haven't landed with the gear up since,
or before for that matter. this makes me nervous!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: _A. Dennis Savarese_ (mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net)
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
With regards to Peter's statement "The knob feels about the same,", he is o
f
course 100% correct. One of the things that I did was remove the flap
handle ball and grind flats on 4 sides of the ball to give it a somewhat di
fferent
feel.
Then I created a gear/flap warning "system" using a simple piezoelectric
alarm device which operates on 28 volts and puts out a high frequency shril
l at
about 90 DB
(_http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62399&cp 320
58.2032230.2032266&parentPage=family_
(http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62399&cp 3205
8.2032230.2032266&parentPage=family) )
and some 1N4001 diodes. I interfaced the alarm circuit to the flap down
microswitch and the nose gear microswitch and of course, ground and 28 volt
s. If
the flaps go down before the gear is down, the alarm sounds off. And it is
loud! It's not 100% fool proof, but it's certainly better than forgetting
the gear altogether. Although I haven't added it yet, a red or yellow lamp
could easily be added to the instrument panel next to the airspeed indicato
r.
It would also come on with the alarm. Once the gear goes down, the alarm
turns off.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: _Peter K. Van Staagen_ (mailto:petervs@knology.net)
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<_petervs@knology.net_ (mailto:petervs@knology.net) >
About gear up landings... I've almost done this twice when another plane
entered the pattern without saying a word. Fortunately my instructor drille
d
in multiple gear checks and I caught it on final. What I had done both time
s
was put the flaps down instead of the gear. The knob feels about the same,
the plane decelerates, the air systems makes that familiar noise. Then when
I got slowed down I put the flaps up, thinking I was putting them down.
Again, the knob feels the same and there is that familiar sound. But the
plane did not fly right. It was hard to slow down. I fly a close pattern an
d
steep decent and so the throttle was at the idle stop and I was still fast.
I was looking around for clues and saw the three red lights. I looked at
them and thought ok the gear lights are red, wait... red is bad, red is ba
d,
holy crap the handle is in the up position. I could not understand why unti
l
much later. I knew I had put it down. I got the gear down, checked the pole
s
and lights and handle three more times. Then on short final realized my
flaps were up. I landed with the flaps up I wasn't about to touch anything
until I understood what had happened.
About warning horns. They don't always work. Ask my friend who landed his
twin commanche gear up. He was task saturated and annoyed by the "stall
warning" going off all the way from short final to touchdown. He never
realized the tone was not the stall warning but actually the gear warning.
Avoiding a gear up landing is all about discipline. Here are my rules.
1) If I have a GIB I brief them that the only thing they have to do on the
flight is to make sure I put the gear down. I tell them to make sure the
three lights are green and the two poles are up. I tell them to tell me tha
t
over the intercom. No one rides without duties.
2) I make three gear checks, one before I roll off the perch, one on base
and the other on short final.
3) I make two announcements. One on base over the radio that gear is down
and pressure is up. One to the GIB, "Three Green, Three Poles." I expect th
e
reply "Three Green, two poles." I even make the radio call at controlled
fields after being cleared to land. I want that gear check on the towers
tape recording, and I don=99t want to change my discipline just becau
se I am
landing somewhere different.
4) On short final I remember the saying "Three Green over the Green."
5) In formation flight I check everyone's gear. I make sure everyone makes
a
gear check radio call. If my wingman let's me land gear up, he is paying fo
r
it!
6) If anything unusual happens in the pattern, get out the check list and
start over.
7) If you cannot remember checking the gear all three times the next day,
you have to severely reprimand yourself.
For fun, let=99s everyone list the tools they use to for gear checks.
Squatch out.
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=----
__|__ ----=(*)=----
__|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
-----Original Message-----
From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark
G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Doc. Let me know how you make out. I agree that over a grand is a lot of
money. Too freaking much money to be honest. You can build some fancy
stuff for a grand. I need to rethink this. Possibly ultrasonic or laser
might be more effective and cheaper. And here I was all gung-ho for a
little while.
Don't talk to me about the market.
Mark
________________________________
From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com) on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp MD" <_viperdoc@mindspring.com_
(mailto:viperdoc@mindspring.com) >
No, not missing anything and I see your logic as hopefully you see mine. T
he
squat switch does not have to be on the sleeve of the strut but could be on
the scissor although the best place for it is on the barrel of the strut. A
t
the tech order strut operating pressure (I forget the numbers), my struts
collapse about 1/4-1/2 in with wt. on them. That may not be enough to be
practical for a WOW switch.
The ground proximity warning sonar is practical and $1295 is reasonable I
guess. Just means I have to leave off another accessory planned for the
winter if I chose to install this. For now the check list still works and
my
insurance rates remain the same. Amaratizing the $1300 over the $50 to $100
extra I would get off my $1800 annual premiums means at best it would be 13
years before I could re-coupe the investment in the GPWS. I could bend the
plane doing something else over that time too.
Self insuring, investing the premiums in this Bear market, and simply
waiting out the recovery also means that I could make enough over the next
10 years to replace a couple of aircraft too. The new housing sales pending
starts are already up 30% in this "bad economy". Did not see that on the bi
g
"three" either did you.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark
G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Doc, in order to have a WOW switch work, something has to MOVE. The
distance it MOVES has to enough to make a SWITCH activate or deactivate.
Think about the 50 .... what moves? The struts when inflated correctly ca
n
be so stiff as to not move at all on landing. Yes, the slide lock can be
replaced with an electronic version (solenoid). Headset noises are no
problem either. A Rad/Alt could also be used instead of GPWS, but at more
expense.
The simple fact though is that if you have a GPWS, you really do not need a
weight on wheels switch. Just some control logic. When the gear is down
and you are below min altititude, the solenoid locks the pin so the gear ca
n
not be raised and audio alerts are disabled. When the aircraft takes off,
and gets above minimum alt. then the gear lock pin UNLOCKS, the gear can
then be raised, and audio alerts are re-activated.
Am I missing something?
Mark
________________________________
From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com) on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Someone yesterday said a WOW switch would not work on the YAK? Why? We are
talking about a weight on wheels switch. I disables the up circuit on the
gear handle. Since we have a manual slide lock a simple micro circuit could
be added to the slide lock that when there is weight on the wheels and the
slide lock is open there is gear warning horn or beep beep in the head set.
With enough bucks you could even have a synthetic "Bitching Betty" saying
"check gear, check gear". (or whatever you want to say, like" take your
&*^%$#@ hands of the gear handle!") Yes, when you slide the slide lock open
for TO you would get that warning also. For a few folks I have seen TO, tha
t
may not be such a bad idea either. The radar altimeter could also be
incorporated for a ground proximity warning also on landing warning of gear
up landing when there is no weight on the wheels.
Just a thought.
Doc
From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Guys,
As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been
available for years. The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled cost
and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to me".
TJ and I have talked about all this before. But if we are going to to drag
this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion,
knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.
At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and
feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want to b
e
proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across the
board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums. This upcharge would be
refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system. Reading
TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could enjoy a
reduction of our annual premiums also. As unpopular as it may be to sugges
t
yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may be
the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the
problem of gear up landings.
Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt with
in another manner.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <_NiftyYak50@fuse.net_
(mailto:NiftyYak50@fuse.net) > wrote:
(mailto:NiftyYak50@fuse.net) >
tjyak50 wrote:
> We've gone around and around on this subject for years.
> There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.
>
> So nobody does anything.
Build it and they will come.
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999)
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List_ (ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
<_http://forums.matronics.com/_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) >
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
http://www.matronicsnbsp; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
____________________________________
10/9/2008 9:44 AM
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
Auto-pilot is a greattool to releive the pilot but was never intended to be
the brains of the airplane. It needs to be monitored all the time.
Complacency and to much dependancy can lead to big problems especially
when IFR.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:47 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
So Forrest, how do you feel about auto-pilots? :-)
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Forrest Johnson
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
What happened to good logic and check list? Todays younger pilots want
something else to do their thinking for them. The more technology you put
into an airplane the more chances you have for some sort of failure. You
want an airplane with all the bells and whistles go buy a new What Ever for
a hell of a lo.t more money.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
I'd love to hear your logic on why the UPCHARGE is necessary Doug. Given
that the amount that insurance people pay OUT is directly tied to the rates
we are charged to have it in the first place, this practice is not likely in
any way to change. Insurance companies are there to make a profit. In
order to lower insurance rates because of the installation of gear warning
systems, it would have to be shown that a certain percentage of the accident
payouts were due to gear up landings or gear being raised on the deck. If
the majority of the insurance payout is due to other factors such as the
"WING OFF" light coming on, or approaching the deck at a 90 degree angle,
then no one is going to be interested in giving us a discount.
Again, the only real way insurance people will give any kind of discount is
if it is a proven fact that installing the gear warning systems will save
them MORE MONEY than not having it INCLUDING the discount.
So that said.... right now... with no gear warning system in the majority of
our aircraft, the insurance company is charging us a certain rate based on
aircraft value and accident statistics. Period. Asking us to pay MORE
right now means that they simply make MORE profit. If we cough up $1500 and
install the system, they give us back the UPCHARGE and are back to making
what they were before PLUS the benefit of less accident rates, which over
time... if successful and if people don't wreck their aircraft for a lot of
other reasons SHOULD EVENTUALLY see us getting better insurance rates.
As it appears to me, an UPCHARGE done in the method you suggest just appears
to me to be a method of using us, the customer to provide insurance to the
insurance company that their profits remain completely stable with zero risk
to them. Of COURSE the insurance company would like that idea. Who
wouldn't?
Just as an aside, I have owned my YAK-50 for just short of 10 years now. In
that period of time, I have paid out just about 50% of the original purchase
price of the aircraft in insurance. Admittedly the first two years my
insurance rates were simply off the chart because I only had 100 hours of
tail dragger time and zero time in type. That's a rate that is about 5
times higher than my home insurance. That said, I'd be interested in
hearing why an upcharge would be a good thing.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of doug sapp
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Guys,
As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been
available for years. The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled cost
and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to me".
TJ and I have talked about all this before. But if we are going to to drag
this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion,
knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.
At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and
feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want to be
proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across the
board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums. This upcharge would be
refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system. Reading
TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could enjoy a
reduction of our annual premiums also. As unpopular as it may be to suggest
yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may be
the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the
problem of gear up landings.
Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt with
in another manner.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@fuse.net> wrote:
tjyak50 wrote:
> We've gone around and around on this subject for years.
> There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.
>
> So nobody does anything.
Build it and they will come.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
I guess I'm lucky in that I've hardly ever flown anything that didn't
have the gear handle on the left side of the instrument panel and the
flap handle next to the throttle quadrant. But my GIB always hears
"three down, three soldiers, flaps down, props at 80 and pressure's up".
I always give it one last look in close for three green. I also always
tell my GIB "gears pinned, flaps are coming" before I raise the flaps.
Never the less, I still believe in the "those who have and those who
will" theory. Fortunately, our YAKs don't suffer the damage the
Nanchangs do when a boo boo occurs. Maybe the YAK designers accounted
for the latent effects of excessive enjoyment of good quality vodka!
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Kemp MD
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:59 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
BGTPF (It starts with my radio call on initiation of base turn) The
radio call triggers my second check. The first began on downwind after
the break turn.
B- Base radio call
G- Gear
T- Three Green (Trike) or Two Green ( Tail Dragger)
P- Pressure (works for hydraulics and air)/ Prop
F- Flaps
Gump also works
G- Gas
U- Undercarriage
M- Mixture
P- Prop
You do not need flaps to land in many aircraft. Ours included.
Now, I'm curious, in the YAK the Gear and the Flap handles are
positioned differently in different quadrants of the cockpit. Why are
you starting your landing checklist with moving your hand back from the
prop rather than moving it forward from the prop and manifold pressure.
Slow the A/C to 160 clicks, set the pitch at 70% and manifold pressure
at 400 mmHg and then the left hand should move forward to the left
quadrant of the instrument panel to activate the gear. Only after the
gear are down, three or two green are seen and if equipped three barber
poles checked do I move my left hand back to the flaps at or past the
initiation of the base turn. On final, I run the gear check a last time.
PUFA works too! Just sounds a bit gay. Oh, that's PUFTA! :>)) Not to
be confused.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Willson
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:12 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Hear Hear.
Don't want any more premiums over here in the UK thank you, and why
should an aircraft design be changed that has been happily operating for
several years (with the correct pilot training - see below) just because
a few pilots are not on the ball (incorrect or lack of training?).
We all know the old adage."there are pilots who have, and pilots who
will." (make a gear up landing), but in my opinion... read on.
Whatever happened to a good checkout by a good instructor to make sure
those PUFA drills are burnt into the brain?
THAT is the only way to prevent a gear up landing AND it also prevents
landing with NO AIR PRESSURE (no brakes) (as recently done by someone in
the UK here because they didn't APPLY their UNDERSTANDING of the
emergency gear/air system).
If you forget all other checks, irrespective of whether you're taking
shortcuts by coming straight in (instead of downwind) or doing constant
aspect (curved) approaches - the rule is to do the life-saver
CONFIRMATION check at 300 feet: PUFA (Prop [Full fine], Undercarriage
[ALREADY down and locked - 3 greens AND three soldiers], Flaps [ALREADY
down], AIR [sufficient for braking].
No undercarriage at that stage = go-around. End of story. No messing
about trying to get it down. Forget it. GO AROUND and start again
because if you've forgotten that, the chances are you've missed a check
and have forgotten something else..
Nigel (Yak52 aerobatic display pilot and Class Rating Instructor)
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Forrest
Johnson
Sent: 10 October 2008 01:50
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
There is no PROBLEM , it is all about pilot attitude .
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Well, there you go Mark, you'll installed an approved system and
your going to get a reduction in your premiums. That's exactly what I
was talking about. But that's only you, many others will not do
anything and will continue to have gear up accidents which will cause
the premiums to remain high. That's my point, unless it's "accross the
board" you will not see and reduction in rates. Tom, want to weigh in
here?
OK Mark, we have heard your criticism of the idea, now lets hear
YOUR suggestions as to how you think it's best to solve the problem.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Sounds fair to me! :-)
Mark
p.s. I'm going to do it Tom.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of tjyak50
Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:40 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Fine.
Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance
premium.
W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.
I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not
really all that good at flying..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8018#208018
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.m
atronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhtt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Checked by AVG.
10/9/2008 9:44 AM
Message 7
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| Subject: | Forget Obummer and Mac |
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is
your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 8
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Like owning a chevy or a Mercedes. 30% depreciation of a smaller
number (Chevy/Yak) is less loss than 30% depreciation of a large
number (Meredes/P51)
I like flying mine, so I would have to agree with my dad who is
retired and watching his nest egg shrink. "It's only a loss if you
sell"
So I won't sell the Yak - just fly it ! (While we can)
Herb
On Oct 9, 2008, at 9:03 PM, Terry Lewis wrote:
> IMHO,
> A great part of the radical decline in the stock market ,which
> affects the price of our airplanes , is due to Freddy Mac and Fanny
> May mismanagement by congress . The rest is due to the possibility
> of Obama assuming the leadership of the most powerful country in the
> world with no experience.
> As to aircraft prices you may see a significance downward
> fluctuation in price for the warbird owners who are adversely
> affected by these economic conditions . There may be some great buys
> in the larger warbirds because
> of this.
> I think the CJ and the YAKs are in the best possible position to
> weather this market and I think the prices will stabilize or move
> up after the first of the year.
> These airplanes are the best bargain in the warbird community.
> Terry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Craig Payne
> To: yak-list
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:24 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Values
>
>
> I just checked the value of my retirement portfolio; big mistake,
> and it was weighted towards the euro more than USD. So should we
> expect falling prices on Yaks, CJ's and M-14P engines? Inquiring
> minds want to know :>)
>
>
> Craig Payne
> cpayne@joimail.com
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Forget Obummer and Mac |
I'm sorry Doug. You're too young and the wrong skin color.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of doug sapp
Sent: Fri 10/10/2008 8:33 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Forget Obummer and Mac
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here
is your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your
support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
Solutions are:
1) Dennis' idea of a noisemaker and diodes. Cheap and works. (about $20)
2) Headset interconnected device from ACS. I'd wire it to the gear lights and
add a microswitch to the flap lever so that if flaps deployed while gear is up
- you'd get the warning. (about $250)
3) Ground prox device from ACS ($1250) (can you turn it off for low passes [Wink]
)
All costs are for devices only with no install costs (hey these are experimental!).
Cost of gear-up landing including the increase in premiums over the life of future
flying?? Don't know that, but could be $50K or so.
In addition to the above, checklists (both paper and memorized), good habits (3
verbalizations of gear down and locked (d-wing, base turn, final).
I guess it all depends on the budget you have!!
Cheers,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8244#208244
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review |
The nice thing about owning your own airplane is that you can do pretty
much anything you want with it, especially if it is in the Experimental
catagory.
Probably the biggest waste of time on record is for one pilot to tell
another pilot what he should or should not do to his own aircraft, or
how he should fly it.
This applies to both of us Forrest.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Forrest Johnson
Sent: Fri 10/10/2008 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<flushjohnson@charter.net>
Auto-pilot is a greattool to releive the pilot but was never intended to
be
the brains of the airplane. It needs to be monitored all the time.
Complacency and to much dependancy can lead to big problems especially
when IFR.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:47 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
So Forrest, how do you feel about auto-pilots? :-)
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Forrest Johnson
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
<flushjohnson@charter.net>
What happened to good logic and check list? Todays younger pilots want
something else to do their thinking for them. The more technology you
put
into an airplane the more chances you have for some sort of failure. You
want an airplane with all the bells and whistles go buy a new What Ever
for
a hell of a lo.t more money.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
I'd love to hear your logic on why the UPCHARGE is necessary Doug.
Given
that the amount that insurance people pay OUT is directly tied to the
rates
we are charged to have it in the first place, this practice is not
likely in
any way to change. Insurance companies are there to make a profit. In
order to lower insurance rates because of the installation of gear
warning
systems, it would have to be shown that a certain percentage of the
accident
payouts were due to gear up landings or gear being raised on the deck.
If
the majority of the insurance payout is due to other factors such as the
"WING OFF" light coming on, or approaching the deck at a 90 degree
angle,
then no one is going to be interested in giving us a discount.
Again, the only real way insurance people will give any kind of discount
is
if it is a proven fact that installing the gear warning systems will
save
them MORE MONEY than not having it INCLUDING the discount.
So that said.... right now... with no gear warning system in the
majority of
our aircraft, the insurance company is charging us a certain rate based
on
aircraft value and accident statistics. Period. Asking us to pay MORE
right now means that they simply make MORE profit. If we cough up $1500
and
install the system, they give us back the UPCHARGE and are back to
making
what they were before PLUS the benefit of less accident rates, which
over
time... if successful and if people don't wreck their aircraft for a lot
of
other reasons SHOULD EVENTUALLY see us getting better insurance rates.
As it appears to me, an UPCHARGE done in the method you suggest just
appears
to me to be a method of using us, the customer to provide insurance to
the
insurance company that their profits remain completely stable with zero
risk
to them. Of COURSE the insurance company would like that idea. Who
wouldn't?
Just as an aside, I have owned my YAK-50 for just short of 10 years now.
In
that period of time, I have paid out just about 50% of the original
purchase
price of the aircraft in insurance. Admittedly the first two years my
insurance rates were simply off the chart because I only had 100 hours
of
tail dragger time and zero time in type. That's a rate that is about 5
times higher than my home insurance. That said, I'd be interested in
hearing why an upcharge would be a good thing.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of doug sapp
Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
Guys,
As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been
available for years. The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled
cost
and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to
me".
TJ and I have talked about all this before. But if we are going to to
drag
this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion,
knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.
At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and
feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want
to be
proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across
the
board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums. This upcharge would be
refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.
Reading
TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could
enjoy a
reduction of our annual premiums also. As unpopular as it may be to
suggest
yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may
be
the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the
problem of gear up landings.
Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt
with
in another manner.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@fuse.net> wrote:
tjyak50 wrote:
> We've gone around and around on this subject for years.
> There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.
>
> So nobody does anything.
Build it and they will come.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Forget Obummer and Mac |
Keeerikees...I once said I'd like to see Ross Perot come up and "manage"
Canada for one term on
a contract basis. Is that really too far out, Doug ?
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:33 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Forget Obummer and Mac
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here
is your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your
support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
08/10/2008 7:19 PM
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Forget Obummer and Mac |
Sapp for President!!! You got my vote!!!? What position do I get in your cabinet??
'Bunndini" for King!!
-----Original Message-----
From: doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 5:33 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Forget Obummer and Mac
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys,?so if you feel like it here is your
chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only?your support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Forget Obummer and Mac |
Do you promise a chicken in every pot and a Nanchang in every hanger?
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "doug sapp" <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is your
chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
<html><body>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Do you promise a chicken in every
pot and a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
/><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Nanchang</st1:place></st1:City>
in every hanger?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "doug sapp"
<dougsappllc@gmail.com> <BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Group,</DIV>
<DIV>I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.<BR clear=all><A href="http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ" target=_blank>http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ</A> <BR>-- <BR>Always Yakin,<BR>Doug Sapp<BR>Phone 509-826-4610<BR>Fax 509-826-3644<BR></DIV></DIV><PRE><B><FONT face="courier new,courier" color=#000000 size=2>
</B></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Forget Obummer and Mac |
Do you promise a chicken in every pot and a Nanchang in every hanger?
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "doug sapp" <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is your
chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
<html><body>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Do you promise a chicken in every
pot and a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
/><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Nanchang</st1:place></st1:City>
in every hanger?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "doug sapp"
<dougsappllc@gmail.com> <BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Group,</DIV>
<DIV>I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.<BR clear=all><A href="http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ" target=_blank>http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ</A> <BR>-- <BR>Always Yakin,<BR>Doug Sapp<BR>Phone 509-826-4610<BR>Fax 509-826-3644<BR></DIV></DIV><PRE><B><FONT face="courier new,courier" color=#000000 size=2>
</B></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Forget Obummer and Mac |
Got my vote!
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:34 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Forget Obummer and Mac
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is
your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563
<http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ>
&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 17
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| Subject: | Forget Obummer and Mac |
Doug for YOU, I will vote at least three or four times!
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:34 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Forget Obummer and Mac
Group,
I have never asked for much from you guys, so if you feel like it here is
your chance to pay me back and it won't cost you a dime, only your support.
http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563
<http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=357563&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ>
&altf=EPVH&altl=TBQQ
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
4:08 PM
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