Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:07 AM - More MM (Craig Payne)
2. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 05:29 AM - Re: Cool Nanchang & Yak low level fly by video (Roger Kemp MD)
5. 07:50 AM - Re: Air Leak (keithmckinley)
6. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel)
7. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel)
8. 11:01 AM - Canopy Seals (NebraskaYak)
9. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 11:45 AM - Re: OT-Survival Gun, The Judge, WAS New to forum (Peter K. Van Staagen)
11. 12:24 PM - Re: Air Leak (Rob Rowe)
12. 12:54 PM - Re: Canopy Seals (Rob Rowe)
13. 03:51 PM - Re: Air Leak (Mozam)
14. 04:16 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
15. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Canopy Seals (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
16. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Robert Langford)
18. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
19. 07:12 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (cjpilot710@aol.com)
20. 08:20 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Andrews)
21. 08:25 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
22. 09:11 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel)
23. 11:43 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation and a waste of bandwidth (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
Message 1
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Wow! 53messages from yesterday on the 'list Digest, you guys must be getting sick
of watching TV campaign commercials or something.
I have begin working with a group of Mooney and Bonanza pilots who are looking
for certification and guidance on standardization. Their backgrounds are military
pilots but they do lots of things with their spammers that we can't do with
our experimentals, such as Care and Angel flights.
They have been flying missing man and flyovers for 10 years now. There is strong
demand for such activity and a dearth of warbirds to meet that demand. I'm steering
these guys towards FFI. I also expect to see RV teams and the like to
fill in for the lack of warbirds.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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Yes, the CJ does.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:34 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Rob, you lost me here. In my 50 I can turn off the air valve and
work on anything in the aircraft. Check valve or not. For example, if
I pull the pop off valve apart and then turn on the air valve, air WILL
come out of the PRV. If I turn it off, the pressure stops. How does a
check valve come into play here?
There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the
compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the
main and emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help!
In the 50, the emergency and the main air bottles are fed from the
engine compressor. Not so the 52. Does the CJ fill both air bottles
from the compressor as well?
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rob Rowe
Sent: Mon 10/27/2008 11:13 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
> ... the 52 is different than even the 50 on the air system. For
example, if I close the main air valve on my 50, it shuts off ALL the
air even to the pop off valve. Thus imagine my surprise when I closed
the main air valve on the 52 and went to pull the cover off the pop-off
valve only to have 700 PSI of air come screaming out. SURPRISE!
Mark,
I understand that, functionally, the -50 air charging system has the
same configuration as a CJ. So regardless of whether the -50 main air
valve is open or closed it's the check valve between the PRV & air
filter that's protecting you when you work on upstream components. As
you discovered without this check valve a -52 needs to be de-pressurised
first.
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210708#210708
Message 3
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I have a question pertaining to the new piston and seals that posters
are referring to. Were these pistons and seals new, still in the
original brown wax paper, with original seals or are these pistons ones
where the rubber seal has been replaced and the piston has been cleaned
and polished? There is a significant difference between the two.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: keithmckinley
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:32 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
<keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
Don't we compensate for the different spring tensions with the
adjusting nut?
Interestingly, I turned down my air pressure after a recent post about
high air pressure in the main and emergency tanks. My pressure was set
at 55 atm and I reset it to 45. I also removed and cleaned the "pop off'
valve body, spring, and installed a new piston. Since then I have had a
similar leak/venting at engine shutdown until about 30-35 atm when it
stops and holds steady. I even tried putting the old piston back in as
the rubber on the new one looked a little thin and misaligned....no
change.
Since my system holds air with the main air valve shut off you'd think
that I might get the air bleeding down to that same 30-35 atm level when
I turn the main air back on a day later but I don't.
In any case, I can't imagine it's the spring but it must be, or like
Mark mentioned, maybe a small bit of contamination or pit on the sealing
lip hmmm...
Keith
700HS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210722#210722
Message 4
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| Subject: | Cool Nanchang & Yak low level fly by video |
Cool. I see one of the Chang drivers is wearing an O2 mask also. Good for
him. The smoke in the pit is visible Carbon Monoxide along with a few other
caustic chemicals to the pulmonary tree.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
vectorwarbirds@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:38 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Cool Nanchang & Yak low level fly by video
Ck out this cool video of low level smoke passes with Nanchang and Yaks
after the Yuma Airshow. With music!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6blBglRGs
Message 5
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Dennis,
Mine was not in a brown wrapping and in fact didn't look shiny at all. The rubber
looked like it was painted on vs the one I was going to replace which had a
solid looking symmetrical rubber piece.
Keith
700hs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210777#210777
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
You're a good man.
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:32 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
PAPPY, Thank You!
Tom & Nora Elliott
777 Quartz Ave
PMB 7004 Sandy Valley
NV. 89019
702-723-1223
Tom cell 702-595-2680
Nora cell 702-808-1316
CJ-6A NX63727
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in
general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets,
Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for "civilians". One of those that I
lead is the most memorable to me. It was for a lady, who was never in the
service nor a pilot. But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town
thought she was deserving enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17
pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation.
They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction.
After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to
support and get support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun,
cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts,
books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides -
anything to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for
the vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our
planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead. I used
Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the
flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in
echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle. I lucked
out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some
dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the
B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was looking down. His words were "My
God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could
not have been more perfect. We were doing it for our selves but we learned
later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our
flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words.
We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly
there were some tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say
good-by to Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each
know how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
cs.com
matronics.com/contribution
by AVG Release Date: 10/27/2008 10:44 PM
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Not even worth the argument
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Bill and Budd. You are both Americans. That gives both of you the
right as citizens of this country to do pretty much what you please
within the law of the land. The law of the land says nothing about
performing a Missing Man formation flight; TFR's aside. If you can get
enough people that think the same as you, not one of us that feels
otherwise is going to try and stop you.
And folks, let's make something perfectly clear regarding this issue.
Our failure to support this agenda is not a mark of disrespect for the
deceased, his widow, his family or his friends. It is NOT about
honoring "one of our own", a former civilian airman or for that matter a
truck driver. It IS about taking a method of tribute first shown by one
military airman for another, and then later adopted by all branches of
the military in almost every country on this entire planet for their own
military airman and then applying it to a civilian pilot.
If you would like you can also get some more folks to come to his
funeral with AR-15's dressed in pseudo uniforms and fire a 21 gun
salute. There is NO difference between the two issues. NONE. NOT ONE
BIT. BOTH represent a sign of respect for the deceased and what he
gave for his country. Performing either or both is ... at least as far
as I know ... within the law.
But when it is said and done, please do not try to lay any guilt trips
on those that think it is an improper use of a tradition that this
gentleman has not EARNED. When I use the word "earned" I do so in
comparison with say those that have "earned" the Medal of Honor and
those of us that have not. Those of us that have served in the
military, especially in combat, have each grasped what "earning"
something really means. Some of us earned only a little. Some of us
earned a lot. ALL of us respect each other whether the contribution was
small, or the contribution was one's life. So please excuse any of us
if we feel that no matter how good your intentions are, you are doing
something that is inappropriate and shows a lack of proper respect for
fallen military airman and as such we simply can not be a part of it.
Lastly, I refuse to have a guilt trip put at my feet over this issue
even if my own contribution to this country has been small. To feel
otherwise is to disrespect those that have given their ALL while serving
their country, and Mr. Geipel, I would rather face the widow than
dishonor the men and women that did that. It is your privilege to feel
that I am wrong. Don't ever forget who's lives gave you the ability to
have that opinion and I hope you honor them in your own way if not this
one.
Mark Bitterlich
USMC Retired
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Budd Davisson
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
If I were there, Bill, I'd do it. I've done it in Pitts and Stearmans
and a host of other birds. In my mind, we're paying respect to a fallen
airman, one of our own, military or otherwise. No one on this group is
Robin Olds or even in his, or his peer group's class and we don't have
the right to say the missing-man is reserved for military only. It's the
military's right to feel that way, but, in my mind, we're all aviators,
that comes first, and a sign of respect is a sign of respect.
On 10/27/08 6:16 PM, "Bill Geipel" <czech6@mesanetworks.net> wrote:
> --> <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
>
> Okay then, I'll call the widow and let her know that we can't honor
> her request because, ??.
>
> I've moved on. You guys are wrong to not honor a request like this.
> But that is your right.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:15 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Bill, I can understand your reaction in that it seems kind of callous
> to be asking the question that Tim did when a person has just passed
> who's loss will be felt by so many. Having recently just lost my own
> Mother, I am especially sensitive to something like that as well.
>
> That said, I am also a military veteran, and so is Tim Gagnon and so
> is Doc. That said, whether anyone else agrees with this statement or
> not, the fact is that the Missing Man Formation IS a "military thing"
> as WELL as a "respect thing" and it has usually been reserved for
> military PILOTS alone, although over the years it has also morphed
> into being performed for military aircrew as well.
>
> For example, while I do have some limited official time on log in
> A-6A's and EA-6A's as "aircrew", I really do not think I rate having a
> missing man formation at my funeral.
>
> As another example, while I agree that everyone rates respect in
> death, that does not mean that they can be buried at Arlington
> National Cemetery just because they would like to be. They also do
> not get to have a 21 gun salute, even if they would like it and
> everyone agrees it would be touching and appreciated. In the same
> token, a missing man formation is reserved for those that qualify it,
> and it would certainly lesson it's meaning if it were performed simply
> out of respect, and without the military tradition from which it
originated.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> USMC Retired
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 12:07 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
<czech6@mesanetworks.net>
>
> Who cares! It's a respect thing, not a military thing. I hope you were
> just being curious as opposed to callus.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon
> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:35 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Was the guy a veteran?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210299#210299
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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Message 8
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Anyone know where to get new seals for the Yak 52 canopies? Mine are all dried
out and nasty looking. Thx.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210813#210813
Message 9
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Where did you get it?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: keithmckinley
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:49 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
<keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
Dennis,
Mine was not in a brown wrapping and in fact didn't look shiny at all.
The rubber looked like it was painted on vs the one I was going to
replace which had a solid looking symmetrical rubber piece.
Keith
700hs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210777#210777
Message 10
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| Subject: | OT-Survival Gun, The Judge, WAS New to forum |
Idiocy =93 Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large
groups.
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__
----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: OT-Survival Gun, The Judge, WAS New to forum
You guys should check out this video. Don't know its got to hurt!!!!
Pappy
http://www.gunslot.com/videos/iraqi-wedding
In a message dated 10/27/2008 7:07:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required andx1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
Message 11
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> In my 50 I can turn off the air valve and work on anything in the aircraft. Check
valve or not. For example, if I pull the pop off valve apart and then turn
on the air valve, air WILL come out of the PRV. If I turn it off, the pressure
stops. How does a check valve come into play here?
>
Curiouser & curiouser ... the more I look into this the more variation I find ...
this post carries an Anorak warning!
1 - I'm 99% sure of -52 air system functionality as I'm in possession of the schematics
and it ties up with collective operational experience
2 - I cannot find a set of YDB issued Yak-50 original air schematics here in the
UK, does anyone have these to share? So all I can get universal agreement to
is that both the main & emergency bottles are fed from the PRV. Anecdotal info
then conflicts about the presence of additional check valves and whether the
main air valve isolates the main air bottle (as you describe Mark) or simply
separates the air sources from air consumers (as per the -52). Perhaps YDB modified
the -50s over time?
3 - YAK-18T schematics have the main air valve isolating the main air cylinder,
which would produce the outcome you've described Mark so maybe your -50 is configured
this way? Nb - I've no operational info to verify the -18T schematic
is correct ... any -18T owners out there who can confirm this?
4 - seems YDB used the same air system components but in fundamentally different
configurations across YAK 18Ts, 50s & 52s - see attached PDF showing 52/18T
variance. It would be useful to add -50 version(s) to this with everyones help
& CJs too (again can anyone post an original Nanchang air schematic?)
In the presumed absence of -50 schematics perhaps we can come up with some simple
ground tests to determine air system function?
Here are a couple of suggestions to start with ...
T1 - with the -50 main air valve OFF can you charge the main air bottle from an
external source to 50 kgf/cm2?
Yes = air valve in parallel to air bottle (similar to -52)
No - air valve in series with air bottle (similar to -18T)
T2 - (as a confirmation) on performing T1 did the main & emergency air pressures
ultimately charge to the same 50kgf/cm2 level (do this slowly to avoid overcharging
the emergency bottle in case the PRV regulation assumption is incorrect)
Yes = PRV regulates main & emergency air bottle pressure (similar to -18)
No = PRV only regulates main air bottle pressure (similar to -52)
>
> There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the compressor line
and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the main and emergency bottles.
I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help!
>
Got that one covered Mark, it's the presence of a check valve downstream of the
air filter that I was looking out for ... as per above it may not now exist!
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210828#210828
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_5218t_air_schematic_variance_591.pdf
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Seals |
I treat my -52's leather canopy seals every few months with Neatsfoot Oil (used
on saddles) and its rejuvenated them such that they actually seal reasonably
well now. Worth a try but YMMV
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210832#210832
Message 13
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Guys,
Here is more info and answers to several questions you asked.
Initially, the system would leak down to 3.0 to 3.5 and then hold there. Gradually
it began to completely leak out as time went on. IOW, it slowly got worse.
I cleaned the inside of the valve to a nice shine...no corrosion or pitting. Still
leaked out. Sometimes in less than a day, and other times it might hold
pressure for a week or more. Very erratic.
That's why I tried a new piston (from Cliff Coy), which made no difference at all.
Then I tried a new piston from Doug Sapp. This piston was much shorter in height
and appears to be slightly smaller in diameter (a CJ piston?). It leaks like
a sieve!
Surprisingly, even with these leaks, the system pumps up to 5.5 inflight, although
it may be a little slow to pump up.
Because the valve interior appears clean and pit free, the leak is confirmed out
the valve's vent holes, and I tried other pistons, the only conclusion I can
reach is a weak spring.
The spring seems to hold enough pressure on the piston to allow the compressor
to pump the system up (ie, a small leak the compressor overcomes), but not enough
pressure when sitting to hold the piston tight in the valve.
So, anybody know where I can get a new spring, 'cause I'm out of ideas?
Thanks,
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210864#210864
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Seals |
WOW! Great suggestion. I never even thought of that!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Rowe
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Canopy Seals
I treat my -52's leather canopy seals every few months with Neatsfoot
Oil (used on saddles) and its rejuvenated them such that they actually
seal reasonably well now. Worth a try but YMMV
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210832#210832
Message 16
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Doug Sapp.
By the way, your aircraft is NOT a YAK "W" model of any kind is it?
Like a YAK-52TW, or a YAK-52W ??? They use a totally different Pop off
valve that is uses a larger piston (in diameter) than the YAK-50, 52 or
Suke 26/29/31.
The CJ piston is different in height and spring seating depth. I believe
I mentioned that it is unwise to use a YAK spring with a CJ piston, but
maybe not. In any case... Yep, replace the spring.
Mark
P.s. Also,.... Ever consider that you might have a leak somewhere ELSE?
P.p.s. What are you flying exactly? Excuse me for not
remembering!!!!!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mozam
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 6:51 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
Guys,
Here is more info and answers to several questions you asked.
Initially, the system would leak down to 3.0 to 3.5 and then hold there.
Gradually it began to completely leak out as time went on. IOW, it
slowly got worse.
I cleaned the inside of the valve to a nice shine...no corrosion or
pitting. Still leaked out. Sometimes in less than a day, and other
times it might hold pressure for a week or more. Very erratic.
That's why I tried a new piston (from Cliff Coy), which made no
difference at all.
Then I tried a new piston from Doug Sapp. This piston was much shorter
in height and appears to be slightly smaller in diameter (a CJ piston?).
It leaks like a sieve!
Surprisingly, even with these leaks, the system pumps up to 5.5
inflight, although it may be a little slow to pump up.
Because the valve interior appears clean and pit free, the leak is
confirmed out the valve's vent holes, and I tried other pistons, the
only conclusion I can reach is a weak spring.
The spring seems to hold enough pressure on the piston to allow the
compressor to pump the system up (ie, a small leak the compressor
overcomes), but not enough pressure when sitting to hold the piston
tight in the valve.
So, anybody know where I can get a new spring, 'cause I'm out of ideas?
Thanks,
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210864#210864
Message 17
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Steve are you certain that the leak is at the relief valve? Can you actually
hear air escaping? If not the leak could be at another location. The gauges
are sometimes prone to leak and other locations could be the problem. Just a
thought!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mozam" <sdalton@hughes.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
>
> Guys,
>
> Here is more info and answers to several questions you asked.
>
> Initially, the system would leak down to 3.0 to 3.5 and then hold there.
> Gradually it began to completely leak out as time went on. IOW, it slowly
> got worse.
>
> I cleaned the inside of the valve to a nice shine...no corrosion or
> pitting. Still leaked out. Sometimes in less than a day, and other times
> it might hold pressure for a week or more. Very erratic.
>
> That's why I tried a new piston (from Cliff Coy), which made no difference
> at all.
>
> Then I tried a new piston from Doug Sapp. This piston was much shorter in
> height and appears to be slightly smaller in diameter (a CJ piston?). It
> leaks like a sieve!
>
> Surprisingly, even with these leaks, the system pumps up to 5.5 inflight,
> although it may be a little slow to pump up.
>
> Because the valve interior appears clean and pit free, the leak is
> confirmed out the valve's vent holes, and I tried other pistons, the only
> conclusion I can reach is a weak spring.
>
> The spring seems to hold enough pressure on the piston to allow the
> compressor to pump the system up (ie, a small leak the compressor
> overcomes), but not enough pressure when sitting to hold the piston tight
> in the valve.
>
> So, anybody know where I can get a new spring, 'cause I'm out of ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210864#210864
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 10:04 AM
>
>
Message 18
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>Here are a couple of suggestions to start with ...
>
>T1 - with the -50 main air valve OFF can you charge the main air bottle
from an external source to 50 kgf/cm2?
>Yes = air valve in parallel to air bottle (similar to -52) No - air
valve in series with air bottle (similar to -18T)
I have never tried that test EXACTLY, but I can tell you this for SURE.
Air goes from the external fill valve to the PRV whether the main air
valve is off or on. There is a check valve between the external air
fill and the PRV because air can NEVER come out of the external fill
valve except for what is in the LINE. I've tested this.
LOGIC says that since air is present at the PRV when the main air valve
is open, and is NOT there when the main air line is CLOSED. (FACT)
And that since there is AIR at the PRV when fed from the external fill
regardless of the position of the MAIN AIR VALVE, that logically the
tank should not fill with the main air valve closed. In order for this
to be WRONG, there would have to be an air line with a check valve in
it, that came from the PRV and BY-PASSED the Main Air Valve. Possible,
but not likely...but never tested. But I will check this weekend.
>T2 - (as a confirmation) on performing T1 did the main & emergency air
pressures ultimately charge to the same 50kgf/cm2 >level (do this slowly
to avoid overcharging the emergency bottle in case the PRV regulation
assumption is incorrect) Yes >= PRV regulates main & emergency air
bottle pressure (similar to -18) No = PRV only regulates main air bottle
pressure >(similar to -52)
When I first owned the aircraft, both main and emergency bottles would
pressurize either from the engine, OR from the external fill valve to
exactly the same pressure. If pressure was exceeded, the PRV would
open, and charging to BOTH cylinders would stop, again, either by engine
compressor or by external air source. This was actually tested by
hooking an external air source to the snot valve and pressurizing the
aircraft. It is WELL KNOWN that the 50 charges BOTH bottles from the
engine and the 52 does NOT. The 52 charges the emergency bottle ONLY
from the external air source. KNOWN FACT.
Over time though, ... As in 700 hours of flight time, I have run into a
situation where the main bottle charges to 50 and the emergency bottle
charges to 60. Not sure if it is a gage error, or something else weird.
I bled down the emergency air bottle to nothing... And then went flying
with the gear down. The main bottle went to 50 and the emergency bottle
once again went to 60. No idea for sure why it does this. I need to
put a calibrated gage on the system with both reading zero and bring it
up with external air to determine which gage is reading correctly... One
or both. I could do this again.. This weekend if it is important enough
to warrant.
Mark
>
> There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the
compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the
main and emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help!
>
Got that one covered Mark, it's the presence of a check valve downstream
of the air filter that I was looking out for ... as per above it may not
now exist!
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210828#210828
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_5218t_air_schematic_variance_591.
pdf
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by
a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
subject of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flyin
g
a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter
ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make
me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator
for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacifi
c
division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767, 777
,
and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines
training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the la
st
time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever
changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've
never done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change
that
impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the
flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't so
, that
just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth. If the
legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate
, but
for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were normal in that new a
ge
of war fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark
Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we
need a answer from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do
you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an
expert by a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
subject of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job
flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the
Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial
helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to
make me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on
727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an
airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.
And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in
the same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize
I've never done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not
change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for
the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the
truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a
departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such
dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided
that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even
bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come
up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked,
should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent
people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin
with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be
the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you
are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me
what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been
at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee
airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me.
It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But
everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF)
were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus
of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her
husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and
get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit,
bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides -
anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for
the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and
B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that
snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late
for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to
lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only
cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us
south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in
the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no
GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down
there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of
the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told
there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were
some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by
to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each
know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Why don't you guys use these guys as a guide, and stop all this on the Yak
List!
http://www.missingman.org
Bunndini
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrews <DANDMAZ@cox.net>
Sent: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that=C2-we at RPA=C2-had to
have=C2- military wings
=C2-to=C2-fly=C2-a missing man formation=C2-at fly-in
airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14
64E=C2- has stated. I think we need a answer from =C2-RPA=C2- admin on
this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fl
y a
missing man formation?
=C2-
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From:
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12
PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re:
Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert
by a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
subject of the heart.
=C2-
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job
flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the
Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter
ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to
make me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124.=C2- Great
story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767,
777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.=C2-
=C2-
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines
training facility BUT they=C2-were "chick magnates" just the same.=C2
- And
the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the sam
e
ever changing sky.
=C2-
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize
I've never done them in anything but military machines.=C2-
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But=C2-if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not chan
ge
that impression.=C2- (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
=C2-
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the
flying vets of WW2, =C2-Korea, or VN?=C2-
Where were=C2-their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
=C2-
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
Richthofen =C2-in WW1 by the RAF.=C2- I have read in other places, tha
t
wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field.=C2- I don't kn
ow
the truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a
departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary.=C2- I guess such
dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair.
=C2-
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"=C2-
=C2-
You have the last word.
=C2-
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
-->
Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally
wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made
by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to
the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already
is.=C2- This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK
List.=C2- The very question that was originally asked, should
have
never been asked, on the YAK list.=C2- We should all be
asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent
people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin
with.=C2- I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would
naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more
on-topic than
say... Here.=C2-
But since you felt compelled to
write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter,
and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would
you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received
your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
=C2-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28
AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man
formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations.=C2- Most of
them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show
dedication for our
veterans in general.=C2- I have done it for
generals,=C2- Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc
etc.=C2- I've also done it for
"civilians".=C2- One of those that I
lead is the most memorable to me.=C2- It
was for a lady, who was never
in the service nor a pilot.=C2- But everyone
of us in the planes and
her entire town thought she was deserving
enough.=C2- Her claim?=C2-
She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active
volunteers in our foundation.=C2- They were the impetus of
ideas that
started the foundation in its direction.=C2- After her husband
passed,
she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support
for our bombers.=C2- She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit,
bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions.=C2- She'd sell T-shirts,
books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides -
anything
to keep the bombers flying.=C2- She was the understanding
greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes.=C2- Mother
confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us.=C2- She did this for 19
years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24
and B-25
covered with 4" of snow.=C2- We worked all morning cleaning
off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half
hours late for
our planned takeoff.=C2- "Heck we'll do it
anyway".=C2- I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her
tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point
just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her
favorite airplane) in the
middle.=C2- I lucked out, and hit the
cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead
reckoning) at 500'.=C2- At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the
B-25, and rolled West.=C2- My co-pilot was
looking down.=C2- His
words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late
our timing could not have been more perfect.=C2- We
were doing it for
our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony
had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister
had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of
Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those
cockpits.=C2- This was the only way we could say good-by
to
Maudy.=C2- We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each
know
how.=C2- At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim
"Pappy"
Goolsby
________________________________
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
You are a scary man.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:16 PM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation and a waste of bandwidth |
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of cjpilot710@aol.com (Pappy)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
>From your reply, it sure seemed that way to me. That's why I asked the question.
Sorry if it made you angry.
>I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a
back ground check so be it.
I was just asking the question, but yes... since you mention it, if you are going
to come across as being an expert on any military subject, it helps to have
personal experience. Not required by any means, but it sure gives you more
credibility.
>I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject
of the heart.
It's always BEEN a matter of the heart, but in some cases and with some things
it is also a matter of military tradition. I do not claim to be an expert on
that, but I think that 38 years of personal first hand experience might make me
a tad more familiar with military aviation courtesy and tradition than someone
who has much less than that. Of course I could be wrong.
>I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
And my Dad took me flying while I was still in my Mothers womb. So?
>By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors
rating.
By the time I was 21 I was a Sgt. in the Marine Corps with one tour in Vietnam
under my belt.
>After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flying a
DC-3 in the Bahamas.
I flew my first DC-3 out of CCK Taiwan.
>When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.
And I quit high school to join the Marines and kill those Commie SOB's!
>I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket)
And I requested EW school so I could be an EWO in the EA-6A.
>I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me
a missile man.
>(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I flunked my eye exam also, which killed my chances of becoming a pilot, but could
stll be an NFO.
>I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for
PAA in Jan. 66.
I was honorably discharged 20 years later and became a Tech Rep. Then went to
war again in Desert Storm.
>>After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacific
division and me and 429 other >pilots went over with it.
After 18 years, I am still supporting the Marines in combat in every place on the
planet that Marines go,
>My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training
facility BUT they were "chick >magnates" just the same. And the last time
I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever >changing
sky.
Glad to hear it. I expect I am smart enough to never question your knowledge of
the world of commercial aviation. It's history, it's methods, and your contribution
to it. I am a small mote of dust on the top of the shelf compared to
you when it comes to that. I have no problem admitting that. However, military
and commercial aviation are ANYTHING but the same Pappy. And while I have
respect for your achievements in commercial aviation, that does not qualify you
to say what is, or is not military customs and courtesy. Sorry.
>As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never
done them in anything but military >machines.
I have no doubt of it.
>(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
As have I.
>But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate
to participate.
My question was simple and straight forward. Where did you earn your military
wings. Answer: You never did.
What you read into that is your business. What I get from it is simple. Your
opinion is always worth something, but it would have been worth a lot more had
you earned your wings in the military. You can not qualify to be appropriate.
You are of course qualified to fly airplanes. You are of course qualified
to fly formation. Whether it is appropriate to fly a missing man formation for
someone who was never a military aviator, it is clear that there is a strong
difference in opinion.
So... why not call up the military and ask THEM to fly a missing man formation
for someone and see what they say. I'll rest my case on their answer.
>And I get the impression that I could not change that impression. (sort of like
talking to a democrat) :-)
Not without a common base of experience no. So you like Obama?
>But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying
vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Good question, where were they?
>Where were their squadrons mates?
I have no idea.
>If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
I assume you asked the military to do it. What was their reply Pappy?
>According to legend
Actually according to historic accounts......
>the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF.
I have read in other places, >that wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped
over his field. I don't know the truth. If the legend is true, than the >"honor"
was not flown for a departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary.
I guess such dichotomies were >normal in that new age of war fair.
Whatever Pappy.
>"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
So insist that the poor guy get buried at Arlington. Or does the military say
NO to that no matter how many people think otherwise? For that matter go out
and buy a Medal of Honor at some Army NAvy store and wear that thing because
all your friends and family think you did such great things in life that you deserve
it. You're darn tootin there are certain lines that should never be crossed...
the question is where you draw them. You and I draw them at two different
places. I think I am right and so do you. It is unlikely that more can
be gained by talking about it any further.
>You have the last word.
Last word.
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