---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/28/08: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:07 AM - More MM (Craig Payne) 2. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese) 3. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 05:29 AM - Re: Cool Nanchang & Yak low level fly by video (Roger Kemp MD) 5. 07:50 AM - Re: Air Leak (keithmckinley) 6. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel) 8. 11:01 AM - Canopy Seals (NebraskaYak) 9. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese) 10. 11:45 AM - Re: OT-Survival Gun, The Judge, WAS New to forum (Peter K. Van Staagen) 11. 12:24 PM - Re: Air Leak (Rob Rowe) 12. 12:54 PM - Re: Canopy Seals (Rob Rowe) 13. 03:51 PM - Re: Air Leak (Mozam) 14. 04:16 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 15. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Canopy Seals (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 16. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 17. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Robert Langford) 18. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 19. 07:12 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (cjpilot710@aol.com) 20. 08:20 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Andrews) 21. 08:25 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (vectorwarbirds@aol.com) 22. 09:11 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel) 23. 11:43 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation and a waste of bandwidth (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:42 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Yak-List: More MM Wow! 53messages from yesterday on the 'list Digest, you guys must be getting sick of watching TV campaign commercials or something. I have begin working with a group of Mooney and Bonanza pilots who are looking for certification and guidance on standardization. Their backgrounds are military pilots but they do lots of things with their spammers that we can't do with our experimentals, such as Care and Angel flights. They have been flying missing man and flyovers for 10 years now. There is strong demand for such activity and a dearth of warbirds to meet that demand. I'm steering these guys towards FFI. I also expect to see RV teams and the like to fill in for the lack of warbirds. Craig Payne cpayne@joimail.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:08 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Yes, the CJ does. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:34 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Point, MALS-14 64E" Rob, you lost me here. In my 50 I can turn off the air valve and work on anything in the aircraft. Check valve or not. For example, if I pull the pop off valve apart and then turn on the air valve, air WILL come out of the PRV. If I turn it off, the pressure stops. How does a check valve come into play here? There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the main and emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help! In the 50, the emergency and the main air bottles are fed from the engine compressor. Not so the 52. Does the CJ fill both air bottles from the compressor as well? Mark ________________________________ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rob Rowe Sent: Mon 10/27/2008 11:13 PM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak > ... the 52 is different than even the 50 on the air system. For example, if I close the main air valve on my 50, it shuts off ALL the air even to the pop off valve. Thus imagine my surprise when I closed the main air valve on the 52 and went to pull the cover off the pop-off valve only to have 700 PSI of air come screaming out. SURPRISE! Mark, I understand that, functionally, the -50 air charging system has the same configuration as a CJ. So regardless of whether the -50 main air valve is open or closed it's the check valve between the PRV & air filter that's protecting you when you work on upstream components. As you discovered without this check valve a -52 needs to be de-pressurised first. Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210708#210708 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:04 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak I have a question pertaining to the new piston and seals that posters are referring to. Were these pistons and seals new, still in the original brown wax paper, with original seals or are these pistons ones where the rubber seal has been replaced and the piston has been cleaned and polished? There is a significant difference between the two. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: keithmckinley To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Don't we compensate for the different spring tensions with the adjusting nut? Interestingly, I turned down my air pressure after a recent post about high air pressure in the main and emergency tanks. My pressure was set at 55 atm and I reset it to 45. I also removed and cleaned the "pop off' valve body, spring, and installed a new piston. Since then I have had a similar leak/venting at engine shutdown until about 30-35 atm when it stops and holds steady. I even tried putting the old piston back in as the rubber on the new one looked a little thin and misaligned....no change. Since my system holds air with the main air valve shut off you'd think that I might get the air bleeding down to that same 30-35 atm level when I turn the main air back on a day later but I don't. In any case, I can't imagine it's the spring but it must be, or like Mark mentioned, maybe a small bit of contamination or pit on the sealing lip hmmm... Keith 700HS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210722#210722 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:32 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp MD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Cool Nanchang & Yak low level fly by video Cool. I see one of the Chang drivers is wearing an O2 mask also. Good for him. The smoke in the pit is visible Carbon Monoxide along with a few other caustic chemicals to the pulmonary tree. Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vectorwarbirds@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Yak-List: Cool Nanchang & Yak low level fly by video Ck out this cool video of low level smoke passes with Nanchang and Yaks after the Yuma Airshow. With music! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6blBglRGs ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:23 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak From: "keithmckinley" Dennis, Mine was not in a brown wrapping and in fact didn't look shiny at all. The rubber looked like it was painted on vs the one I was going to replace which had a solid looking symmetrical rubber piece. Keith 700hs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210777#210777 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:09 AM PST US From: "Bill Geipel" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation You're a good man. _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation PAPPY, Thank You! Tom & Nora Elliott 777 Quartz Ave PMB 7004 Sandy Valley NV. 89019 702-723-1223 Tom cell 702-595-2680 Nora cell 702-808-1316 CJ-6A NX63727 _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years. The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25 covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow. When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead. I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know how. At least none of them didn't deserve it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby _____ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out! //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List cs.com matronics.com/contribution by AVG Release Date: 10/27/2008 10:44 PM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:40 AM PST US From: "Bill Geipel" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation Not even worth the argument -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation MALS-14 64E" Bill and Budd. You are both Americans. That gives both of you the right as citizens of this country to do pretty much what you please within the law of the land. The law of the land says nothing about performing a Missing Man formation flight; TFR's aside. If you can get enough people that think the same as you, not one of us that feels otherwise is going to try and stop you. And folks, let's make something perfectly clear regarding this issue. Our failure to support this agenda is not a mark of disrespect for the deceased, his widow, his family or his friends. It is NOT about honoring "one of our own", a former civilian airman or for that matter a truck driver. It IS about taking a method of tribute first shown by one military airman for another, and then later adopted by all branches of the military in almost every country on this entire planet for their own military airman and then applying it to a civilian pilot. If you would like you can also get some more folks to come to his funeral with AR-15's dressed in pseudo uniforms and fire a 21 gun salute. There is NO difference between the two issues. NONE. NOT ONE BIT. BOTH represent a sign of respect for the deceased and what he gave for his country. Performing either or both is ... at least as far as I know ... within the law. But when it is said and done, please do not try to lay any guilt trips on those that think it is an improper use of a tradition that this gentleman has not EARNED. When I use the word "earned" I do so in comparison with say those that have "earned" the Medal of Honor and those of us that have not. Those of us that have served in the military, especially in combat, have each grasped what "earning" something really means. Some of us earned only a little. Some of us earned a lot. ALL of us respect each other whether the contribution was small, or the contribution was one's life. So please excuse any of us if we feel that no matter how good your intentions are, you are doing something that is inappropriate and shows a lack of proper respect for fallen military airman and as such we simply can not be a part of it. Lastly, I refuse to have a guilt trip put at my feet over this issue even if my own contribution to this country has been small. To feel otherwise is to disrespect those that have given their ALL while serving their country, and Mr. Geipel, I would rather face the widow than dishonor the men and women that did that. It is your privilege to feel that I am wrong. Don't ever forget who's lives gave you the ability to have that opinion and I hope you honor them in your own way if not this one. Mark Bitterlich USMC Retired -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Budd Davisson Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation If I were there, Bill, I'd do it. I've done it in Pitts and Stearmans and a host of other birds. In my mind, we're paying respect to a fallen airman, one of our own, military or otherwise. No one on this group is Robin Olds or even in his, or his peer group's class and we don't have the right to say the missing-man is reserved for military only. It's the military's right to feel that way, but, in my mind, we're all aviators, that comes first, and a sign of respect is a sign of respect. On 10/27/08 6:16 PM, "Bill Geipel" wrote: > --> > > Okay then, I'll call the widow and let her know that we can't honor > her request because, ??. > > I've moved on. You guys are wrong to not honor a request like this. > But that is your right. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, > Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:15 PM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation > > --> Point, > MALS-14 64E" > > Bill, I can understand your reaction in that it seems kind of callous > to be asking the question that Tim did when a person has just passed > who's loss will be felt by so many. Having recently just lost my own > Mother, I am especially sensitive to something like that as well. > > That said, I am also a military veteran, and so is Tim Gagnon and so > is Doc. That said, whether anyone else agrees with this statement or > not, the fact is that the Missing Man Formation IS a "military thing" > as WELL as a "respect thing" and it has usually been reserved for > military PILOTS alone, although over the years it has also morphed > into being performed for military aircrew as well. > > For example, while I do have some limited official time on log in > A-6A's and EA-6A's as "aircrew", I really do not think I rate having a > missing man formation at my funeral. > > As another example, while I agree that everyone rates respect in > death, that does not mean that they can be buried at Arlington > National Cemetery just because they would like to be. They also do > not get to have a 21 gun salute, even if they would like it and > everyone agrees it would be touching and appreciated. In the same > token, a missing man formation is reserved for those that qualify it, > and it would certainly lesson it's meaning if it were performed simply > out of respect, and without the military tradition from which it originated. > > Respectfully, > > Mark Bitterlich > USMC Retired > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 12:07 PM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation > > > Who cares! It's a respect thing, not a military thing. I hope you were > just being curious as opposed to callus. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gagnon > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:35 PM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation > > > Was the guy a veteran? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210299#210299 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:52 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Canopy Seals From: "NebraskaYak" Anyone know where to get new seals for the Yak 52 canopies? Mine are all dried out and nasty looking. Thx. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210813#210813 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:07 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Where did you get it? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: keithmckinley To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Dennis, Mine was not in a brown wrapping and in fact didn't look shiny at all. The rubber looked like it was painted on vs the one I was going to replace which had a solid looking symmetrical rubber piece. Keith 700hs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210777#210777 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:23 AM PST US From: "Peter K. Van Staagen" Subject: RE: Yak-List: OT-Survival Gun, The Judge, WAS New to forum Idiocy =93 Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. __|__ __|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=---- ----=(*)=---- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: OT-Survival Gun, The Judge, WAS New to forum You guys should check out this video. Don't know its got to hurt!!!! Pappy http://www.gunslot.com/videos/iraqi-wedding In a message dated 10/27/2008 7:07:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes: > _____ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required andx1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir= http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:55 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak From: "Rob Rowe" > In my 50 I can turn off the air valve and work on anything in the aircraft. Check valve or not. For example, if I pull the pop off valve apart and then turn on the air valve, air WILL come out of the PRV. If I turn it off, the pressure stops. How does a check valve come into play here? > Curiouser & curiouser ... the more I look into this the more variation I find ... this post carries an Anorak warning! 1 - I'm 99% sure of -52 air system functionality as I'm in possession of the schematics and it ties up with collective operational experience 2 - I cannot find a set of YDB issued Yak-50 original air schematics here in the UK, does anyone have these to share? So all I can get universal agreement to is that both the main & emergency bottles are fed from the PRV. Anecdotal info then conflicts about the presence of additional check valves and whether the main air valve isolates the main air bottle (as you describe Mark) or simply separates the air sources from air consumers (as per the -52). Perhaps YDB modified the -50s over time? 3 - YAK-18T schematics have the main air valve isolating the main air cylinder, which would produce the outcome you've described Mark so maybe your -50 is configured this way? Nb - I've no operational info to verify the -18T schematic is correct ... any -18T owners out there who can confirm this? 4 - seems YDB used the same air system components but in fundamentally different configurations across YAK 18Ts, 50s & 52s - see attached PDF showing 52/18T variance. It would be useful to add -50 version(s) to this with everyones help & CJs too (again can anyone post an original Nanchang air schematic?) In the presumed absence of -50 schematics perhaps we can come up with some simple ground tests to determine air system function? Here are a couple of suggestions to start with ... T1 - with the -50 main air valve OFF can you charge the main air bottle from an external source to 50 kgf/cm2? Yes = air valve in parallel to air bottle (similar to -52) No - air valve in series with air bottle (similar to -18T) T2 - (as a confirmation) on performing T1 did the main & emergency air pressures ultimately charge to the same 50kgf/cm2 level (do this slowly to avoid overcharging the emergency bottle in case the PRV regulation assumption is incorrect) Yes = PRV regulates main & emergency air bottle pressure (similar to -18) No = PRV only regulates main air bottle pressure (similar to -52) > > There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the main and emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help! > Got that one covered Mark, it's the presence of a check valve downstream of the air filter that I was looking out for ... as per above it may not now exist! Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210828#210828 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_5218t_air_schematic_variance_591.pdf ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:37 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Canopy Seals From: "Rob Rowe" I treat my -52's leather canopy seals every few months with Neatsfoot Oil (used on saddles) and its rejuvenated them such that they actually seal reasonably well now. Worth a try but YMMV Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210832#210832 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:30 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak From: "Mozam" Guys, Here is more info and answers to several questions you asked. Initially, the system would leak down to 3.0 to 3.5 and then hold there. Gradually it began to completely leak out as time went on. IOW, it slowly got worse. I cleaned the inside of the valve to a nice shine...no corrosion or pitting. Still leaked out. Sometimes in less than a day, and other times it might hold pressure for a week or more. Very erratic. That's why I tried a new piston (from Cliff Coy), which made no difference at all. Then I tried a new piston from Doug Sapp. This piston was much shorter in height and appears to be slightly smaller in diameter (a CJ piston?). It leaks like a sieve! Surprisingly, even with these leaks, the system pumps up to 5.5 inflight, although it may be a little slow to pump up. Because the valve interior appears clean and pit free, the leak is confirmed out the valve's vent holes, and I tried other pistons, the only conclusion I can reach is a weak spring. The spring seems to hold enough pressure on the piston to allow the compressor to pump the system up (ie, a small leak the compressor overcomes), but not enough pressure when sitting to hold the piston tight in the valve. So, anybody know where I can get a new spring, 'cause I'm out of ideas? Thanks, Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210864#210864 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than say... Here. But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years. The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25 covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow. When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead. I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know how. At least none of them didn't deserve it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby ________________________________ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:20 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Canopy Seals From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" WOW! Great suggestion. I never even thought of that! Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Rowe Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 3:54 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Canopy Seals I treat my -52's leather canopy seals every few months with Neatsfoot Oil (used on saddles) and its rejuvenated them such that they actually seal reasonably well now. Worth a try but YMMV Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210832#210832 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:21 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Doug Sapp. By the way, your aircraft is NOT a YAK "W" model of any kind is it? Like a YAK-52TW, or a YAK-52W ??? They use a totally different Pop off valve that is uses a larger piston (in diameter) than the YAK-50, 52 or Suke 26/29/31. The CJ piston is different in height and spring seating depth. I believe I mentioned that it is unwise to use a YAK spring with a CJ piston, but maybe not. In any case... Yep, replace the spring. Mark P.s. Also,.... Ever consider that you might have a leak somewhere ELSE? P.p.s. What are you flying exactly? Excuse me for not remembering!!!!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mozam Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 6:51 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Guys, Here is more info and answers to several questions you asked. Initially, the system would leak down to 3.0 to 3.5 and then hold there. Gradually it began to completely leak out as time went on. IOW, it slowly got worse. I cleaned the inside of the valve to a nice shine...no corrosion or pitting. Still leaked out. Sometimes in less than a day, and other times it might hold pressure for a week or more. Very erratic. That's why I tried a new piston (from Cliff Coy), which made no difference at all. Then I tried a new piston from Doug Sapp. This piston was much shorter in height and appears to be slightly smaller in diameter (a CJ piston?). It leaks like a sieve! Surprisingly, even with these leaks, the system pumps up to 5.5 inflight, although it may be a little slow to pump up. Because the valve interior appears clean and pit free, the leak is confirmed out the valve's vent holes, and I tried other pistons, the only conclusion I can reach is a weak spring. The spring seems to hold enough pressure on the piston to allow the compressor to pump the system up (ie, a small leak the compressor overcomes), but not enough pressure when sitting to hold the piston tight in the valve. So, anybody know where I can get a new spring, 'cause I'm out of ideas? Thanks, Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210864#210864 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:52 PM PST US From: "Robert Langford" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Steve are you certain that the leak is at the relief valve? Can you actually hear air escaping? If not the leak could be at another location. The gauges are sometimes prone to leak and other locations could be the problem. Just a thought! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mozam" Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak > > Guys, > > Here is more info and answers to several questions you asked. > > Initially, the system would leak down to 3.0 to 3.5 and then hold there. > Gradually it began to completely leak out as time went on. IOW, it slowly > got worse. > > I cleaned the inside of the valve to a nice shine...no corrosion or > pitting. Still leaked out. Sometimes in less than a day, and other times > it might hold pressure for a week or more. Very erratic. > > That's why I tried a new piston (from Cliff Coy), which made no difference > at all. > > Then I tried a new piston from Doug Sapp. This piston was much shorter in > height and appears to be slightly smaller in diameter (a CJ piston?). It > leaks like a sieve! > > Surprisingly, even with these leaks, the system pumps up to 5.5 inflight, > although it may be a little slow to pump up. > > Because the valve interior appears clean and pit free, the leak is > confirmed out the valve's vent holes, and I tried other pistons, the only > conclusion I can reach is a weak spring. > > The spring seems to hold enough pressure on the piston to allow the > compressor to pump the system up (ie, a small leak the compressor > overcomes), but not enough pressure when sitting to hold the piston tight > in the valve. > > So, anybody know where I can get a new spring, 'cause I'm out of ideas? > > Thanks, > Steve > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210864#210864 > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 10:04 AM > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:57 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" >Here are a couple of suggestions to start with ... > >T1 - with the -50 main air valve OFF can you charge the main air bottle from an external source to 50 kgf/cm2? >Yes = air valve in parallel to air bottle (similar to -52) No - air valve in series with air bottle (similar to -18T) I have never tried that test EXACTLY, but I can tell you this for SURE. Air goes from the external fill valve to the PRV whether the main air valve is off or on. There is a check valve between the external air fill and the PRV because air can NEVER come out of the external fill valve except for what is in the LINE. I've tested this. LOGIC says that since air is present at the PRV when the main air valve is open, and is NOT there when the main air line is CLOSED. (FACT) And that since there is AIR at the PRV when fed from the external fill regardless of the position of the MAIN AIR VALVE, that logically the tank should not fill with the main air valve closed. In order for this to be WRONG, there would have to be an air line with a check valve in it, that came from the PRV and BY-PASSED the Main Air Valve. Possible, but not likely...but never tested. But I will check this weekend. >T2 - (as a confirmation) on performing T1 did the main & emergency air pressures ultimately charge to the same 50kgf/cm2 >level (do this slowly to avoid overcharging the emergency bottle in case the PRV regulation assumption is incorrect) Yes >= PRV regulates main & emergency air bottle pressure (similar to -18) No = PRV only regulates main air bottle pressure >(similar to -52) When I first owned the aircraft, both main and emergency bottles would pressurize either from the engine, OR from the external fill valve to exactly the same pressure. If pressure was exceeded, the PRV would open, and charging to BOTH cylinders would stop, again, either by engine compressor or by external air source. This was actually tested by hooking an external air source to the snot valve and pressurizing the aircraft. It is WELL KNOWN that the 50 charges BOTH bottles from the engine and the 52 does NOT. The 52 charges the emergency bottle ONLY from the external air source. KNOWN FACT. Over time though, ... As in 700 hours of flight time, I have run into a situation where the main bottle charges to 50 and the emergency bottle charges to 60. Not sure if it is a gage error, or something else weird. I bled down the emergency air bottle to nothing... And then went flying with the gear down. The main bottle went to 50 and the emergency bottle once again went to 60. No idea for sure why it does this. I need to put a calibrated gage on the system with both reading zero and bring it up with external air to determine which gage is reading correctly... One or both. I could do this again.. This weekend if it is important enough to warrant. Mark > > There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the main and emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help! > Got that one covered Mark, it's the presence of a check valve downstream of the air filter that I was looking out for ... as per above it may not now exist! Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210828#210828 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_5218t_air_schematic_variance_591. pdf ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:02 PM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings? I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a back ground check so be it. I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject of the heart. I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP. By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors rating. After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flyin g a DC-3 in the Bahamas. When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army. I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket) I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me a missile man. (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!) I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for PAA in Jan. 66. After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacifi c division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it. I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767, 777 , and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement. That was my career in a nut shell. My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the la st time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever changing sky. As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never done them in anything but military machines. (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there). But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-) But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN? Where were their squadrons mates? If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given? According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't so , that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate , but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were normal in that new a ge of war fair. "Imitation is the greatest compliment" You have the last word. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes: --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than say... Here. But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years. The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25 covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow. When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead. I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know how. At least none of them didn't deserve it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby ________________________________ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out! **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:12 PM PST US From: "Andrews" Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation Thank you Jim. I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation? Donald Allan Andrews RPA Member#15 ----- Original Message ----- From: cjpilot710@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings? I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a back ground check so be it. I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject of the heart. I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP. By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors rating. After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas. When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army. I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket) I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me a missile man. (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!) I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for PAA in Jan. 66. After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it. I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement. That was my career in a nut shell. My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever changing sky. As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never done them in anything but military machines. (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there). But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-) But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN? Where were their squadrons mates? If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given? According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair. "Imitation is the greatest compliment" You have the last word. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes: Point, MALS-14 64E" Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than say... Here. But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years. The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25 covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow. When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead. I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know how. At least none of them didn't deserve it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby ________________________________ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ; ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com Why don't you guys use these guys as a guide, and stop all this on the Yak List! http://www.missingman.org Bunndini -----Original Message----- From: Andrews Sent: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 8:17 pm Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation Thank you Jim. I did not know that=C2-we at RPA=C2-had to have=C2- military wings =C2-to=C2-fly=C2-a missing man formation=C2-at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E=C2- has stated. I think we need a answer from =C2-RPA=C2- admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fl y a missing man formation? =C2- Donald Allan Andrews RPA Member#15 ----- Original Message ----- From: cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings? I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a back ground check so be it. I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject of the heart. =C2- I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP. By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors rating. After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas. When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army. I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket) I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me a missile man. (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124.=C2- Great story!) I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for PAA in Jan. 66. After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it. I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.=C2- =C2- That was my career in a nut shell. My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training facility BUT they=C2-were "chick magnates" just the same.=C2 - And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the sam e ever changing sky. =C2- As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never done them in anything but military machines.=C2- (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there). But=C2-if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not chan ge that impression.=C2- (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-) =C2- But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying vets of WW2, =C2-Korea, or VN?=C2- Where were=C2-their squadrons mates? If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given? =C2- According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen =C2-in WW1 by the RAF.=C2- I have read in other places, tha t wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field.=C2- I don't kn ow the truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary.=C2- I guess such dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair. =C2- "Imitation is the greatest compliment"=C2- =C2- You have the last word. =C2- Jim "Pappy" Goolsby =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes: --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger fiasco than it already is.=C2- This whole topic should have never come up on the YAK List.=C2- The very question that was originally asked, should have never been asked, on the YAK list.=C2- We should all be asking ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with.=C2- I submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than say... Here.=C2- But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from? Mark Bitterlich =C2- -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation I've flown a lot of missing man formations.=C2- Most of them have been at airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in general.=C2- I have done it for generals,=C2- Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc.=C2- I've also done it for "civilians".=C2- One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me.=C2- It was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot.=C2- But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving enough.=C2- Her claim?=C2- She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation.=C2- They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction.=C2- After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get support for our bombers.=C2- She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions.=C2- She'd sell T-shirts, books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything to keep the bombers flying.=C2- She was the understanding greeter for the vets who showed up at the airplanes.=C2- Mother confessor, nurse and commissary gal for us.=C2- She did this for 19 years. The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25 covered with 4" of snow.=C2- We worked all morning cleaning off that snow. When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our planned takeoff.=C2- "Heck we'll do it anyway".=C2- I was chosen to lead. I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle.=C2- I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'.=C2- At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West.=C2- My co-pilot was looking down.=C2- His words were "My God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect.=C2- We were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some tears in those cockpits.=C2- This was the only way we could say good-by to Maudy.=C2- We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know how.=C2- At least none of them didn't deserve it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby ________________________________ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es y =C2- --> =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2 - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site ; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.m atronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matro nics.com/c =================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:54 PM PST US From: "Bill Geipel" Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation You are a scary man. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:16 PM Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation MALS-14 64E" Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than say... Here. But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen, WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years. The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25 covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow. When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead. I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery. I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south. We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS, just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17 pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there". Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10 seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know how. At least none of them didn't deserve it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby ________________________________ Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out! ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:35 PM PST US Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation and a waste of bandwidth From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" ________________________________ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of cjpilot710@aol.com (Pappy) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation >Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings? >From your reply, it sure seemed that way to me. That's why I asked the question. Sorry if it made you angry. >I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a back ground check so be it. I was just asking the question, but yes... since you mention it, if you are going to come across as being an expert on any military subject, it helps to have personal experience. Not required by any means, but it sure gives you more credibility. >I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject of the heart. It's always BEEN a matter of the heart, but in some cases and with some things it is also a matter of military tradition. I do not claim to be an expert on that, but I think that 38 years of personal first hand experience might make me a tad more familiar with military aviation courtesy and tradition than someone who has much less than that. Of course I could be wrong. >I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP. And my Dad took me flying while I was still in my Mothers womb. So? >By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors rating. By the time I was 21 I was a Sgt. in the Marine Corps with one tour in Vietnam under my belt. >After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas. I flew my first DC-3 out of CCK Taiwan. >When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army. And I quit high school to join the Marines and kill those Commie SOB's! >I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket) And I requested EW school so I could be an EWO in the EA-6A. >I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me a missile man. >(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!) I flunked my eye exam also, which killed my chances of becoming a pilot, but could stll be an NFO. >I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for PAA in Jan. 66. I was honorably discharged 20 years later and became a Tech Rep. Then went to war again in Desert Storm. >>After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacific division and me and 429 other >pilots went over with it. After 18 years, I am still supporting the Marines in combat in every place on the planet that Marines go, >My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training facility BUT they were "chick >magnates" just the same. And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever >changing sky. Glad to hear it. I expect I am smart enough to never question your knowledge of the world of commercial aviation. It's history, it's methods, and your contribution to it. I am a small mote of dust on the top of the shelf compared to you when it comes to that. I have no problem admitting that. However, military and commercial aviation are ANYTHING but the same Pappy. And while I have respect for your achievements in commercial aviation, that does not qualify you to say what is, or is not military customs and courtesy. Sorry. >As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never done them in anything but military >machines. I have no doubt of it. >(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there). As have I. >But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate to participate. My question was simple and straight forward. Where did you earn your military wings. Answer: You never did. What you read into that is your business. What I get from it is simple. Your opinion is always worth something, but it would have been worth a lot more had you earned your wings in the military. You can not qualify to be appropriate. You are of course qualified to fly airplanes. You are of course qualified to fly formation. Whether it is appropriate to fly a missing man formation for someone who was never a military aviator, it is clear that there is a strong difference in opinion. So... why not call up the military and ask THEM to fly a missing man formation for someone and see what they say. I'll rest my case on their answer. >And I get the impression that I could not change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-) Not without a common base of experience no. So you like Obama? >But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN? Good question, where were they? >Where were their squadrons mates? I have no idea. >If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given? I assume you asked the military to do it. What was their reply Pappy? >According to legend Actually according to historic accounts...... >the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, >that wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth. If the legend is true, than the >"honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were >normal in that new age of war fair. Whatever Pappy. >"Imitation is the greatest compliment" So insist that the poor guy get buried at Arlington. Or does the military say NO to that no matter how many people think otherwise? For that matter go out and buy a Medal of Honor at some Army NAvy store and wear that thing because all your friends and family think you did such great things in life that you deserve it. You're darn tootin there are certain lines that should never be crossed... the question is where you draw them. You and I draw them at two different places. I think I am right and so do you. It is unlikely that more can be gained by talking about it any further. >You have the last word. 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