Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
2. 12:10 AM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 12:34 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Jan Mevis)
4. 07:19 AM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Roger Kemp MD)
5. 08:01 AM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel)
6. 08:01 AM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel)
7. 08:49 AM - 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? (Dale)
8. 09:20 AM - Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? (Bill Geipel)
9. 12:18 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (steve and donna hanshew)
10. 01:10 PM - Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? (Dale)
11. 01:16 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bill Geipel)
12. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 02:02 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
14. 02:44 PM - Re: Air Leak (Mozam)
15. 02:45 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
16. 03:05 PM - Marvel Mystery Oil (Don Milbourn)
17. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
18. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak (A. Dennis Savarese)
19. 03:48 PM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil (Robert Langford)
20. 04:20 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation (Mark Davis)
21. 04:50 PM - Lose a wing lately? (cjpilot710@aol.com)
22. 04:52 PM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil (A. Dennis Savarese)
23. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? (Bill Geipel)
24. 05:44 PM - Re: Lose a wing lately? (Mozam)
25. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: Lose a wing lately? (cjpilot710@aol.com)
26. 06:19 PM - Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? (Herb Coussons)
27. 08:25 PM - Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? (Dale)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just can't
read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the military
than the military does about itself.
GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly like an
airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal. But you see, I
draw another line when people start accusing me of saying things that I never
said. I actually do take that personally. I'm working on being able to ignore
such nonsense... but I am weak.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a missing man
formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY
POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer from RPA admin on
this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fly
a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a
back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject
of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors
rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flying a
DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me
a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for
PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacific division
and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767, 777, and
747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training
facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the last time
I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never
done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate
to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change that impression.
(sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying
vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen
in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't so, that just
a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth. If the legend is
true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate, but for a
deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were normal in that new age of war
fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
writes:
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ;
________________________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
This subject should NEVER have come up, been discussed, or even been ASKED for,
on this list.
You are 100% right.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of vectorwarbirds@aol.com
Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Why don't you guys use these guys as a guide, and stop all this on the Yak List!
http://www.missingman.org
Bunndini
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrews <DANDMAZ@cox.net>
Sent: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a missing man
formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY
POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer from RPA admin on
this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fly
a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by a
back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a subject
of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and instructors
rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job flying a
DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make me
a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator for
PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the Pacific division
and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767, 777, and
747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines training
facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the last time
I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've never
done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as appropriate
to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change that impression.
(sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the flying
vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von Richthofen
in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't so, that just
a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth. If the legend is
true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed squadron mate, but for a
deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were normal in that new age of war
fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
writes:
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001 <http://www.games.com/?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001> "> check it es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ;
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> "http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/c
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In my Yak50, the emergency bottle is also always charged to a higher level
than the main bottle. I never understood why. The main circuit depletes to
some 40 kg/cm when standing still. The emergency pressure always stays
high. I have a new engine, with a new compressor, and all the lines have
been thoroughly checked.
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: woensdag 29 oktober 2008 0:47
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>Here are a couple of suggestions to start with ...
>
>T1 - with the -50 main air valve OFF can you charge the main air bottle
from an external source to 50 kgf/cm2?
>Yes = air valve in parallel to air bottle (similar to -52) No - air
valve in series with air bottle (similar to -18T)
I have never tried that test EXACTLY, but I can tell you this for SURE.
Air goes from the external fill valve to the PRV whether the main air
valve is off or on. There is a check valve between the external air
fill and the PRV because air can NEVER come out of the external fill
valve except for what is in the LINE. I've tested this.
LOGIC says that since air is present at the PRV when the main air valve
is open, and is NOT there when the main air line is CLOSED. (FACT)
And that since there is AIR at the PRV when fed from the external fill
regardless of the position of the MAIN AIR VALVE, that logically the
tank should not fill with the main air valve closed. In order for this
to be WRONG, there would have to be an air line with a check valve in
it, that came from the PRV and BY-PASSED the Main Air Valve. Possible,
but not likely...but never tested. But I will check this weekend.
>T2 - (as a confirmation) on performing T1 did the main & emergency air
pressures ultimately charge to the same 50kgf/cm2 >level (do this slowly
to avoid overcharging the emergency bottle in case the PRV regulation
assumption is incorrect) Yes >= PRV regulates main & emergency air
bottle pressure (similar to -18) No = PRV only regulates main air bottle
pressure >(similar to -52)
When I first owned the aircraft, both main and emergency bottles would
pressurize either from the engine, OR from the external fill valve to
exactly the same pressure. If pressure was exceeded, the PRV would
open, and charging to BOTH cylinders would stop, again, either by engine
compressor or by external air source. This was actually tested by
hooking an external air source to the snot valve and pressurizing the
aircraft. It is WELL KNOWN that the 50 charges BOTH bottles from the
engine and the 52 does NOT. The 52 charges the emergency bottle ONLY
from the external air source. KNOWN FACT.
Over time though, ... As in 700 hours of flight time, I have run into a
situation where the main bottle charges to 50 and the emergency bottle
charges to 60. Not sure if it is a gage error, or something else weird.
I bled down the emergency air bottle to nothing... And then went flying
with the gear down. The main bottle went to 50 and the emergency bottle
once again went to 60. No idea for sure why it does this. I need to
put a calibrated gage on the system with both reading zero and bring it
up with external air to determine which gage is reading correctly... One
or both. I could do this again.. This weekend if it is important enough
to warrant.
Mark
>
> There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the
compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the
main and emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help!
>
Got that one covered Mark, it's the presence of a check valve downstream
of the air filter that I was looking out for ... as per above it may not
now exist!
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210828#210828
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_5218t_air_schematic_variance_591.
pdf
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Geez, this horse is dead and pounded into dust. Opinions are like a_ _ _
_ __s, everybody has one. Even the Missing Man Foundation that covers
the west coast states they fly to honor departed veterans that served
this Nation (USA-not slighting the other countries patriots). As for
having military wings and flying formation tactical or ACM, they help.
It is a skill set/ muscle memory that is developed and reinforced early
in life not at age 50 or greater. But as we all know around the RPA
that is not necessary so why is it an issue. Just having the money to
buy and operate a military warbird along with showing up and flying
with =9CIPs=9D at a few formation clinics along with passing
the =9CCheck Ride=9D with a PPA/ current Class III medical
in your wallet is enough to qualify to fly formation. To reduce it down
to its=99 most basic term.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark
Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we
need a answer from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do
you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert
by a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
subject of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job
flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the
Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial
helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to
make me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767,
777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an
airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.
And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in
the same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize
I've never done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not
change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for
the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the
truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a
departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such
dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es y -->
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution
Web Site ;
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
You need to get a life. Mark, asking is no sin. We all get it now, you made
it perfectly clear that once a marine, always a marine. We now know not to
ask you. This is not brain surgery, this is not like rushing into a burning
building to save a child. It is simply flying an airplane, or driving a
truck or your lawn mower. The guy needed a favor and asked.
Before we let him unsubscribe, what say we drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:03 AM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
military than the military does about itself.
GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly like
an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal. But you
see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying things that
I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm working on being
able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a missing
man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET
CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer from RPA
admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military
wings to fly a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an
expert by a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really
a subject of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a
job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the
Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial
helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided
to make me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on
727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an
airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.
And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the
same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I
realize I've never done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change
that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies
for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for
von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth.
If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed
squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were
normal in that new age of war fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments
and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I
decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an
even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have
never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally
asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be
asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can
prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to
begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would
naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more
on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and
since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so
many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please
telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings
from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them
have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for
our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals,
Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it
for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable
to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot.
But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was
deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the
8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the
impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After
her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to
support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun,
cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts,
books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides
- anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding
greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor,
nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17,
B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off
that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours
late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was
chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only
cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn
us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite
airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the
nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call
the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My
co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people
down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more
perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that
because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen
not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We
were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly
there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say
good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we
each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es
y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List
Contribution Web Site ;
________________________________
Message 6
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|
| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
You need to get a life. Mark, asking is no sin. We all get it now, you made
it perfectly clear that once a marine, always a marine. We now know not to
ask you. This is not brain surgery, this is not like rushing into a burning
building to save a child. It is simply flying an airplane, or driving a
truck or your lawn mower. The guy needed a favor and asked.
Before we let him unsubscribe, what say we drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:03 AM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
military than the military does about itself.
GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly like
an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal. But you
see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying things that
I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm working on being
able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a missing
man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET
CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer from RPA
admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military
wings to fly a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an
expert by a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really
a subject of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a
job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the
Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial
helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided
to make me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on
727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an
airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.
And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the
same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I
realize I've never done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change
that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies
for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for
von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the truth.
If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed
squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies were
normal in that new age of war fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments
and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I
decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an
even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have
never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally
asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be
asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can
prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support to
begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would
naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more
on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and
since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so
many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please
telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings
from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them
have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for
our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals,
Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it
for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable
to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot.
But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was
deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the
8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the
impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After
her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to
support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun,
cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts,
books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides
- anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding
greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor,
nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17,
B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off
that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours
late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was
chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only
cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn
us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite
airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the
nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call
the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My
co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people
down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more
perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that
because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen
not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We
were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly
there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say
good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we
each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites, no
registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es
y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List
Contribution Web Site ;
________________________________
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? |
Does anyone know who to contact or have information on the in wing oil cooler relocation
kit or modification?
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210974#210974
Message 8
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| Subject: | 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? |
Floyd,
Have you flown it yet?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:49 AM
Subject: Yak-List: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation?
Does anyone know who to contact or have information on the in wing oil
cooler relocation kit or modification?
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210974#210974
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Take it for what it's worth, (because it makes me no nevermind) but that's
why I gave up on this outfit after the Yak Pilots Club went teats up. Used
to be a fun crowd. By the way, Hey Pappy. Glad to see you still hangin' in
there. Keep em' flying.
Wild Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:02 AM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
>
> Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
> can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
>
> By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
> military than the military does about itself.
>
> GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly
> like an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal. But
> you see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying
> things that I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm
> working on being able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
> Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Thank you Jim.
> I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
> missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich
> G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer
> from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to
> have military wings to fly a missing man formation?
>
> Donald Allan Andrews
> RPA Member#15
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
> I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert
> by a back ground check so be it.
> I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
> subject of the heart.
>
> I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
> By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
> instructors rating.
> After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job
> flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
> When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.
> I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter
> ticket)
> I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to
> make me a missile man.
> (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
> I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator
> for PAA in Jan. 66.
> After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
> Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
> I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767,
> 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
>
> That was my career in a nut shell.
> My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines
> training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the
> last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same
> ever changing sky.
>
> As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've
> never done them in anything but military machines.
> (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
> But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
> appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not
> change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
>
> But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the
> flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
> Where were their squadrons mates?
> If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
>
> According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
> Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
> so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the
> truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a
> departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such
> dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair.
>
> "Imitation is the greatest compliment"
>
> You have the last word.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
> addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
> was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
> fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
> on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
> have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
> ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
> in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
> submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
> place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
> say... Here.
>
> But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
> clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
> missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
> branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
> I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
> airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
> veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
> WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
> "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
> was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
> of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
> enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
> the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
> ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
> passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
> support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
> racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
> chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
> to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
> vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
> commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
>
> The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
> covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
> When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
> our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
> I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
> I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
> We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
> middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
> just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
> pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
> looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
> Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
> were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
> weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
> seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
> wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
> tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
> Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
> how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
> registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web
> Site ;
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? |
No, I'm waiting for the paperwork to catch up so I can go to the FSDO. I am also
taking the time to do some modifications ,upgrades and general maintenance
. Currently I am looking for a armament package so next year at Lamar I will
have a chance against a L-29 or at least a 50. I know, I know . I will still have
the same chance as this year, none.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211024#211024
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Amen!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve and donna
hanshew
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
<dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
Take it for what it's worth, (because it makes me no nevermind) but that's
why I gave up on this outfit after the Yak Pilots Club went teats up. Used
to be a fun crowd. By the way, Hey Pappy. Glad to see you still hangin' in
there. Keep em' flying.
Wild Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:02 AM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
>
> Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
> can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
>
> By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
> military than the military does about itself.
>
> GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly
> like an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal. But
> you see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying
> things that I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm
> working on being able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
> Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Thank you Jim.
> I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
> missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich
> G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer
> from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to
> have military wings to fly a missing man formation?
>
> Donald Allan Andrews
> RPA Member#15
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
> I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert
> by a back ground check so be it.
> I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
> subject of the heart.
>
> I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
> By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
> instructors rating.
> After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job
> flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
> When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.
> I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter
> ticket)
> I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to
> make me a missile man.
> (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)
> I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator
> for PAA in Jan. 66.
> After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
> Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
> I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767,
> 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
>
> That was my career in a nut shell.
> My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines
> training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the
> last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same
> ever changing sky.
>
> As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've
> never done them in anything but military machines.
> (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
> But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
> appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not
> change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
>
> But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the
> flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
> Where were their squadrons mates?
> If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
>
> According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
> Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
> so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the
> truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a
> departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such
> dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair.
>
> "Imitation is the greatest compliment"
>
> You have the last word.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and
> addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I
> was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger
> fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up
> on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should
> have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking
> ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people
> in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I
> submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the
> place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than
> say... Here.
>
> But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are
> clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many
> missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what
> branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
> I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at
> airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our
> veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,
> WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for
> "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It
> was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone
> of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving
> enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were
> the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of
> ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband
> passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get
> support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb
> racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key
> chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything
> to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the
> vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and
> commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
>
> The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25
> covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.
> When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for
> our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.
> I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.
> I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.
> We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the
> middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,
> just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17
> pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was
> looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".
> Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We
> were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the
> weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10
> seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there
> wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some
> tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to
> Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know
> how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
> registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web
> Site ;
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
Message 12
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Jan, mine didn't use to do that. Both gages matched perfectly. Then one day that
changed, and now the emergency bottle always goes higher than the main. Honestly,
I suspected the gage calibrations to be suspect. I own a bottle with
gage that can check to see exactly how much I am putting in there and if the
gages match or not when fed from the external port, but .... Not sure what that
is going to tell me either.
My memory dimly recalls one gent mentioning that a check valve can cause this.
No idea which one!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:34 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
In my Yak50, the emergency bottle is also always charged to a higher level than
the main bottle. I never understood why. The main circuit depletes to some 40
kg/cm when standing still. The emergency pressure always stays high. I have
a new engine, with a new compressor, and all the lines have been thoroughly checked.
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: woensdag 29 oktober 2008 0:47
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>Here are a couple of suggestions to start with ...
>
>T1 - with the -50 main air valve OFF can you charge the main air bottle
from an external source to 50 kgf/cm2?
>Yes = air valve in parallel to air bottle (similar to -52) No - air
valve in series with air bottle (similar to -18T)
I have never tried that test EXACTLY, but I can tell you this for SURE.
Air goes from the external fill valve to the PRV whether the main air valve is
off or on. There is a check valve between the external air fill and the PRV because
air can NEVER come out of the external fill valve except for what is in
the LINE. I've tested this.
LOGIC says that since air is present at the PRV when the main air valve is open,
and is NOT there when the main air line is CLOSED. (FACT) And that since there
is AIR at the PRV when fed from the external fill regardless of the position
of the MAIN AIR VALVE, that logically the tank should not fill with the main
air valve closed. In order for this to be WRONG, there would have to be an
air line with a check valve in it, that came from the PRV and BY-PASSED the Main
Air Valve. Possible, but not likely...but never tested. But I will check
this weekend.
>T2 - (as a confirmation) on performing T1 did the main & emergency air
pressures ultimately charge to the same 50kgf/cm2 >level (do this slowly to avoid
overcharging the emergency bottle in case the PRV regulation assumption is
incorrect) Yes >= PRV regulates main & emergency air bottle pressure (similar
to -18) No = PRV only regulates main air bottle pressure >(similar to -52)
When I first owned the aircraft, both main and emergency bottles would pressurize
either from the engine, OR from the external fill valve to exactly the same
pressure. If pressure was exceeded, the PRV would open, and charging to BOTH
cylinders would stop, again, either by engine compressor or by external air source.
This was actually tested by hooking an external air source to the snot
valve and pressurizing the aircraft. It is WELL KNOWN that the 50 charges BOTH
bottles from the engine and the 52 does NOT. The 52 charges the emergency
bottle ONLY from the external air source. KNOWN FACT.
Over time though, ... As in 700 hours of flight time, I have run into a situation
where the main bottle charges to 50 and the emergency bottle charges to 60.
Not sure if it is a gage error, or something else weird.
I bled down the emergency air bottle to nothing... And then went flying with the
gear down. The main bottle went to 50 and the emergency bottle once again went
to 60. No idea for sure why it does this. I need to put a calibrated gage
on the system with both reading zero and bring it up with external air to determine
which gage is reading correctly... One or both. I could do this again..
This weekend if it is important enough to warrant.
Mark
>
> There is a check valve to keep air from back-flowing into the
compressor line and more past the PRV to prevent cross flow between the main and
emergency bottles. I am unsure of the one you refer to. Help!
>
Got that one covered Mark, it's the presence of a check valve downstream of the
air filter that I was looking out for ... as per above it may not now exist!
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210828#210828
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_5218t_air_schematic_variance_591.
pdf
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Wild Bill,
Here Here!? I quit as well.? Tried of the BS and the clique, too many egos running
around unchecked!
See you in the sky!!
'Bunndini'
-----Original Message-----
From: steve and donna hanshew <dhanshew@cinci.rr.com>
Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
?
Take it for what it's worth, (because it makes me no nevermind) but that's
why I gave up on this outfit after the Yak Pilots Club went teats up. Used
to be a fun crowd. By the way, Hey Pappy. Glad to see you still hangin' in
there. Keep em' flying.?
?
Wild Bill?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>?
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:02 AM?
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation?
?
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>?
>?
> Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!?
>?
> Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
> can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung??
>?
> By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
> military than the military does about itself.?
>?
> GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly
> like an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal. But
> you see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying
> things that I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm
> working on being able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.?
>?
> Mark Bitterlich?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> ________________________________?
>?
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews?
> Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM?
> To: yak-list@matronics.com?
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation?
>?
>?
> Thank you Jim.?
> I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
> missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich
> G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we need a answer
> from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to
> have military wings to fly a missing man formation??
>?
> Donald Allan Andrews?
> RPA Member#15?
>?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com?
> To: yak-list@matronics.com?
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM?
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation?
>?
>?
> Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings??
> I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert
> by a back ground check so be it.?
> I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a
> subject of the heart.?
>?
> I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.?
> By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and
> instructors rating.?
> After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job
> flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.?
> When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the Army.?
> I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter
> ticket)?
> I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to
> make me a missile man.?
> (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great story!)?
> I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator
> for PAA in Jan. 66.?
> After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the
> Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.?
> I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767,
> 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.?
>?
> That was my career in a nut shell.?
> My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines
> training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same. And the
> last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same
> ever changing sky.?
>?
> As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've
> never done them in anything but military machines.?
> (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).?
> But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as
> appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not
> change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)?
>?
> But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the
> flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN??
> Where were their squadrons mates??
> If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given??
>?
> According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von
> Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places, that wasn't
> so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't know the
> truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a
> departed squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such
> dichotomies were normal in that new age of war fair.?
>?
> "Imitation is the greatest compliment"?
>?
> You have the last word.?
>?
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:?
>?
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>?
>?
> Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and?
> addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I?
> was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger?
> fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have never come up?
> on the YAK List. The very question that was originally asked, should?
> have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all be asking?
> ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people?
> in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with. I?
> submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the?
> place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than?
> say... Here.?
>?
> But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are?
> clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many?
> missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what?
> branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from??
>?
> Mark Bitterlich?
>?
>?
> -----Original Message-----?
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com?
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of?
> cjpilot710@aol.com?
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM?
> To: yak-list@matronics.com?
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation?
>?
> I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of them have been at?
> airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication for our?
> veterans in general. I have done it for generals, Tuskeegee airmen,?
> WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done it for?
> "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most memorable to me. It?
> was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a pilot. But everyone?
> of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was deserving?
> enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in the 8th AF) were?
> the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were the impetus of?
> ideas that started the foundation in its direction. After her husband?
> passed, she continued doing everything in her power to support and get?
> support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun, cockpit, bomb?
> racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell T-shirts, books, key?
> chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and rides - anything?
> to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding greeter for the?
> vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor, nurse and?
> commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.?
>?
> The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17, B-24 and B-25?
> covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning off that snow.?
> When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half hours late for?
> our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was chosen to lead.?
> I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's only cemetery.?
> I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and turn us south.?
> We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite airplane) in the?
> middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the nose (no GPS,?
> just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my call the B-17?
> pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My co-pilot was?
> looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the people down there".?
> Though we were late our timing could not have been more perfect. We?
> were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that because of the?
> weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover happen not 10?
> seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We were told there?
> wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly there were some?
> tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could say good-by to?
> Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best way we each know?
> how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.?
>?
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> ________________________________?
>?
> Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no?
> registration required and great gra2x1200689022/aol?redir=?
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it es
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web
> Site ;?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> ________________________________?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> ?
?
?
Message 14
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote:
> Doug Sapp.
>
> By the way, your aircraft is NOT a YAK "W" model of any kind is it?
> Like a YAK-52TW, or a YAK-52W ??? They use a totally different Pop off
> valve that is uses a larger piston (in diameter) than the YAK-50, 52 or
> Suke 26/29/31.
>
> The CJ piston is different in height and spring seating depth. I believe
> I mentioned that it is unwise to use a YAK spring with a CJ piston, but
> maybe not. In any case... Yep, replace the spring.
>
> Mark
>
> P.s. Also,.... Ever consider that you might have a leak somewhere ELSE?
>
>
> P.p.s. What are you flying exactly? Excuse me for not
> remembering!!!!!!!!!
> --
Mark,
Yes, it's -52TW. Explains why it has the bigger piston (which was news to me...thanks)
Doug Sapp told me he has no springs.
The leak is obvious (you can hear it, and see the bubbles with soapy water use).
I checked and found no other leaks.
Cheers,
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211039#211039
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Well actually, my typical presence on this list server is normally
reserved in trying to help people like yourself when they have problems
with their aircraft. I've written a number of articles on the
electrical power system, troubleshooting and repair of the landing gear
system on YAK-50's, modifying the tail wheel lock on YAK-50's, how to
repair DNP-200 relays, etc. So for the most part that has been "my
life" on this list server.
Every once in awhile I rise to the surface and get involved with
discussions on why you do or do not need to wear flights suits in order
to fly formation, or parachutes for that matter. Another great event in
history was the discussion on Marvel Mystery Oil. That one still makes
me chuckle. My favorite expression is: "Don't Pee down my neck and tell
me it's raining." Meaning, I don't hold very well with lies and
mistruths.
But sadly, I do remember coming back from Vietnam and getting spit on
and called a baby killer at the Philadelphia airport. Thus I have a
special place in my heart for people who's freedom is taken so much for
granted that they would actually argue against two active duty Aircrew
service members (and one retired one) concerning what is and what is not
a military tradition and should be reserved as such.
So...."I need to get a life"? That's another term I heard from people
who hated the military so much that they would do anything to dishonor
them in any way that they could. I don't know who the "we" is that you
refer to when you write, because Bill you really only have the right to
speak for yourself. Regardless, you are perfectly correct in saying:
"Once a Marine, Always a Marine". Add the words Semper Fidelis if you
would like as well. All perfectly correct. Something that unless you
are one, or are a former one ... is doubtful that you will every truly
grasp or understand. It is about honor, loyalty and Esprit de Corps.
I'm proud of my past and present association with the Marines Bill, and
no one on this planet could make me feel otherwise and with no
disrespect intended, that means least of all yourself.
Yes Bill... We in the military "get it" as well. There are some people
that no matter how much you try to explain to them, no matter how hard
you try to make them realize how you feel and why something is important
to you, just do not GET IT. This IS about people running into burning
buildings. This IS about saving a child. This is about the folks that
flew military aircraft that gave their lives for their country.
Yourself and other folks just "don't get it" and deny that it ever was
that, is not now treated like that, nor should be. Instead it is no
different than driving a truck or a lawnmower and is simply just doing a
favor for a friend.
I am more than willing to drop it. As soon as you and others stop
taking pot shots at myself and others who feel the way they do for a
darn good reason. You see, I am all done being spit on and walking away
with my head down ashamed. Now I rise to every occasion of this nature
and stand right in your face and tell you what I think.
Check 6 Bill. Something every military pilot does religiously.
Mark Bitterlich
You're DAMN right "Once a Marine".
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
You need to get a life. Mark, asking is no sin. We all get it now, you
made it perfectly clear that once a marine, always a marine. We now know
not to ask you. This is not brain surgery, this is not like rushing into
a burning building to save a child. It is simply flying an airplane, or
driving a truck or your lawn mower. The guy needed a favor and asked.
Before we let him unsubscribe, what say we drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:03 AM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
military than the military does about itself.
GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly
like an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal.
But you see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying
things that I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm
working on being able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Thank you Jim.
I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark
Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we
need a answer from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do
you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation?
Donald Allan Andrews
RPA Member#15
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as
an expert by a back ground check so be it.
I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is
really a subject of the heart.
I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial
and instructors rating.
After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got
a job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in
the Army.
I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial
helicopter ticket)
I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army
decided to make me a missile man.
(As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great
story!)
I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought
the Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on
727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
That was my career in a nut shell.
My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an
airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.
And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in
the same ever changing sky.
As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I
realize I've never done them in anything but military machines.
(I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify
me as appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could
not change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
But where was the military on the days I flew over the
ceremonies for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
Where were their squadrons mates?
If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
According to legend the first missing man formation was flown
for von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places,
that wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't
know the truth.
If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed
squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies
were normal in that new age of war fair.
"Imitation is the greatest compliment"
You have the last word.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight
Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your
comments and
addressed some replies made by others as well. But then
I decided that I
was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into
an even bigger
fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have
never come up
on the YAK List. The very question that was originally
asked, should
have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all
be asking
ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can
prevent people
in the future from coming here asking for such support
to begin with. I
submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would
naturally be the
place to go, and such discussion as this might be more
on-topic than
say... Here.
But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and
since you are
clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have
flown so many
missing man formations yourself, would you mind please
telling me what
branch of military aviation you received your pilots
wings from?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of
them have been at
airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication
for our
veterans in general. I have done it for generals,
Tuskeegee airmen,
WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done
it for
"civilians". One of those that I lead is the most
memorable to me. It
was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a
pilot.
But everyone
of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was
deserving
enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in
the 8th AF) were
the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were
the impetus of
ideas that started the foundation in its direction.
After her husband
passed, she continued doing everything in her power to
support and get
support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun,
cockpit, bomb
racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell
T-shirts, books, key
chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and
rides
- anything
to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding
greeter for the
vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor,
nurse and
commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17,
B-24 and B-25
covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning
off that snow.
When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half
hours late for
our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was
chosen to lead.
I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's
only cemetery.
I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and
turn us south.
We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite
airplane) in the
middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the
nose (no GPS,
just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my
call the B-17
pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My
co-pilot was
looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the
people down there".
Though we were late our timing could not have been more
perfect. We
were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that
because of the
weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover
happen not 10
seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We
were told there
wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly
there were some
tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could
say good-by to
Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best
way we each know
how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites, no
registration required and great
gra2x1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check
it es
y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List
Contribution Web Site ;
________________________________
Message 16
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| Subject: | Marvel Mystery Oil |
How does this work for smoke oil?
Message 17
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For lack of a better term: "Oh shit".
Steve, a few years ago a fellow came by New Bern with a YAK-52TW that
needed a new cylinder on the engine. While he was here, I spent a
number of hours going over the airplane and looking at the differences
between it, and a standard 52. One way or another we got around to
adjusting his pop-off valve to set the air pressure correctly. I told
him I had a spare piston and spring if he needed it.
Well.. Not so fast. When I went to look at the Pop Off Valve, or
Pressure Regulating Valve, (whatever the proper term is), I IMMEDIATELY
noticed this his valve was NOT the same as the ones I had worked on and
had spare parts for. The YAK-52, 55, 50, CJ, Sukhoi 26, 29 and 31 all
have pretty much the same piston and spring, as long as you change them
as a pair. The 52TW is DIFFERENT! I have not a clue in the world as to
why this is, but my GUESS is that since the 52TW was actually (re)made
in a different country, they used a pop-off valve that they had on hand.
Heck, it could even be a BETTER one for all I know.
The difference is in the diameter of the piston for SURE. If you use a
piston from Doug or someone else, it is just going to go in there and
rattle around and it will NOT seal correctly. This is why you are
having your problem.
I see two answers... Aerostar in Romania for a new one, or... Find your
original and try to put a new "top" on it per se.
And lastly, there is another alternative. I can't remember if it was
Hubie Tolson's Suke 31 or Sergei Boriaks old 31, but one of them had an
AMERICAN MADE pressure relief valve. This puppy was made from stainless
steel and had an adjustable pressure assy, with a pull ring relief
fixture. I did some research on it, and found that a new one cost $800.
I quickly gave up on it after that, but .... It sure worked and it NEVER
goes bad (in comparison to what we have now anyway) You might want to
go that route if all else fails.
Bottom line though, that is why you are leaking, without a shadow of a
doubt.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mozam
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:43 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote:
> Doug Sapp.
>
> By the way, your aircraft is NOT a YAK "W" model of any kind is it?
> Like a YAK-52TW, or a YAK-52W ??? They use a totally different Pop
> off valve that is uses a larger piston (in diameter) than the YAK-50,
> 52 or Suke 26/29/31.
>
> The CJ piston is different in height and spring seating depth. I
> believe I mentioned that it is unwise to use a YAK spring with a CJ
> piston, but maybe not. In any case... Yep, replace the spring.
>
> Mark
>
> P.s. Also,.... Ever consider that you might have a leak somewhere
ELSE?
>
>
> P.p.s. What are you flying exactly? Excuse me for not
> remembering!!!!!!!!!
> --
Mark,
Yes, it's -52TW. Explains why it has the bigger piston (which was news
to me...thanks)
Doug Sapp told me he has no springs.
The leak is obvious (you can hear it, and see the bubbles with soapy
water use). I checked and found no other leaks.
Cheers,
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211039#211039
Message 18
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|
"....my GUESS is that since the 52TW was actually (re)made in a
different country." One small correction Mark. The 52TW was also made
in Romania at the same Aerostar factory as the standard 52's.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
For lack of a better term: "Oh shit".
Steve, a few years ago a fellow came by New Bern with a YAK-52TW that
needed a new cylinder on the engine. While he was here, I spent a
number of hours going over the airplane and looking at the differences
between it, and a standard 52. One way or another we got around to
adjusting his pop-off valve to set the air pressure correctly. I told
him I had a spare piston and spring if he needed it.
Well.. Not so fast. When I went to look at the Pop Off Valve, or
Pressure Regulating Valve, (whatever the proper term is), I
IMMEDIATELY
noticed this his valve was NOT the same as the ones I had worked on
and
had spare parts for. The YAK-52, 55, 50, CJ, Sukhoi 26, 29 and 31 all
have pretty much the same piston and spring, as long as you change
them
as a pair. The 52TW is DIFFERENT! I have not a clue in the world as
to
why this is, but my GUESS is that since the 52TW was actually (re)made
in a different country, they used a pop-off valve that they had on
hand.
Heck, it could even be a BETTER one for all I know.
The difference is in the diameter of the piston for SURE. If you use
a
piston from Doug or someone else, it is just going to go in there and
rattle around and it will NOT seal correctly. This is why you are
having your problem.
I see two answers... Aerostar in Romania for a new one, or... Find
your
original and try to put a new "top" on it per se.
And lastly, there is another alternative. I can't remember if it was
Hubie Tolson's Suke 31 or Sergei Boriaks old 31, but one of them had
an
AMERICAN MADE pressure relief valve. This puppy was made from
stainless
steel and had an adjustable pressure assy, with a pull ring relief
fixture. I did some research on it, and found that a new one cost
$800.
I quickly gave up on it after that, but .... It sure worked and it
NEVER
goes bad (in comparison to what we have now anyway) You might want to
go that route if all else fails.
Bottom line though, that is why you are leaking, without a shadow of a
doubt.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mozam
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:43 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote:
> Doug Sapp.
>
> By the way, your aircraft is NOT a YAK "W" model of any kind is it?
> Like a YAK-52TW, or a YAK-52W ??? They use a totally different Pop
> off valve that is uses a larger piston (in diameter) than the
YAK-50,
> 52 or Suke 26/29/31.
>
> The CJ piston is different in height and spring seating depth. I
> believe I mentioned that it is unwise to use a YAK spring with a CJ
> piston, but maybe not. In any case... Yep, replace the spring.
>
> Mark
>
> P.s. Also,.... Ever consider that you might have a leak somewhere
ELSE?
>
>
> P.p.s. What are you flying exactly? Excuse me for not
> remembering!!!!!!!!!
> --
Mark,
Yes, it's -52TW. Explains why it has the bigger piston (which was
news
to me...thanks)
Doug Sapp told me he has no springs.
The leak is obvious (you can hear it, and see the bubbles with soapy
water use). I checked and found no other leaks.
Cheers,
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211039#211039
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil |
Fine if you can stand about $40.00 per gallon!
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Milbourn
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil
How does this work for smoke oil?
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Checked by AVG.
10/29/2008 7:45 AM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Missing man formation |
Another tradition which traces its roots to military aviators is the use of
the phrase "KNOCK IT OFF" when a situation is getting out of hand. It's
probably applicable to all contributors on this (off)topic.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Well actually, my typical presence on this list server is normally
> reserved in trying to help people like yourself when they have problems
> with their aircraft. I've written a number of articles on the
> electrical power system, troubleshooting and repair of the landing gear
> system on YAK-50's, modifying the tail wheel lock on YAK-50's, how to
> repair DNP-200 relays, etc. So for the most part that has been "my
> life" on this list server.
>
> Every once in awhile I rise to the surface and get involved with
> discussions on why you do or do not need to wear flights suits in order
> to fly formation, or parachutes for that matter. Another great event in
> history was the discussion on Marvel Mystery Oil. That one still makes
> me chuckle. My favorite expression is: "Don't Pee down my neck and tell
> me it's raining." Meaning, I don't hold very well with lies and
> mistruths.
>
> But sadly, I do remember coming back from Vietnam and getting spit on
> and called a baby killer at the Philadelphia airport. Thus I have a
> special place in my heart for people who's freedom is taken so much for
> granted that they would actually argue against two active duty Aircrew
> service members (and one retired one) concerning what is and what is not
> a military tradition and should be reserved as such.
>
> So...."I need to get a life"? That's another term I heard from people
> who hated the military so much that they would do anything to dishonor
> them in any way that they could. I don't know who the "we" is that you
> refer to when you write, because Bill you really only have the right to
> speak for yourself. Regardless, you are perfectly correct in saying:
> "Once a Marine, Always a Marine". Add the words Semper Fidelis if you
> would like as well. All perfectly correct. Something that unless you
> are one, or are a former one ... is doubtful that you will every truly
> grasp or understand. It is about honor, loyalty and Esprit de Corps.
> I'm proud of my past and present association with the Marines Bill, and
> no one on this planet could make me feel otherwise and with no
> disrespect intended, that means least of all yourself.
>
> Yes Bill... We in the military "get it" as well. There are some people
> that no matter how much you try to explain to them, no matter how hard
> you try to make them realize how you feel and why something is important
> to you, just do not GET IT. This IS about people running into burning
> buildings. This IS about saving a child. This is about the folks that
> flew military aircraft that gave their lives for their country.
> Yourself and other folks just "don't get it" and deny that it ever was
> that, is not now treated like that, nor should be. Instead it is no
> different than driving a truck or a lawnmower and is simply just doing a
> favor for a friend.
>
> I am more than willing to drop it. As soon as you and others stop
> taking pot shots at myself and others who feel the way they do for a
> darn good reason. You see, I am all done being spit on and walking away
> with my head down ashamed. Now I rise to every occasion of this nature
> and stand right in your face and tell you what I think.
>
> Check 6 Bill. Something every military pilot does religiously.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> You're DAMN right "Once a Marine".
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:00 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> You need to get a life. Mark, asking is no sin. We all get it now, you
> made it perfectly clear that once a marine, always a marine. We now know
> not to ask you. This is not brain surgery, this is not like rushing into
> a burning building to save a child. It is simply flying an airplane, or
> driving a truck or your lawn mower. The guy needed a favor and asked.
> Before we let him unsubscribe, what say we drop it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:03 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!
>
> Could it be that you just made that up? Or could be it be that you just
> can't read? Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?
>
> By all means, go ask the RPA. After all, the RPA knows more about the
> military than the military does about itself.
>
> GREAT IDEA Donald. Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly
> like an airplane engine sounds like. Seems this is getting personal.
> But you see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying
> things that I never said. I actually do take that personally. I'm
> working on being able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Andrews
> Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Thank you Jim.
> I did not know that we at RPA had to have military wings to fly a
> missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark
> Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E has stated. I think we
> need a answer from RPA admin on this missing man formation subject, do
> you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation?
>
> Donald Allan Andrews
> RPA Member#15
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
>
> Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?
> I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as
> an expert by a back ground check so be it.
> I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is
> really a subject of the heart.
>
> I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.
> By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial
> and instructors rating.
> After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got
> a job flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.
> When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in
> the Army.
> I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial
> helicopter ticket)
> I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army
> decided to make me a missile man.
> (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124. Great
> story!)
> I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a
> navigator for PAA in Jan. 66.
> After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought
> the Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.
> I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on
> 727,757/767, 777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement.
>
> That was my career in a nut shell.
> My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an
> airlines training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.
> And the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in
> the same ever changing sky.
>
> As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I
> realize I've never done them in anything but military machines.
> (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).
> But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify
> me as appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could
> not change that impression. (sort of like talking to a democrat) :-)
>
> But where was the military on the days I flew over the
> ceremonies for the flying vets of WW2, Korea, or VN?
> Where were their squadrons mates?
> If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?
>
> According to legend the first missing man formation was flown
> for von Richthofen in WW1 by the RAF. I have read in other places,
> that wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field. I don't
> know the truth.
> If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed
> squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary. I guess such dichotomies
> were normal in that new age of war fair.
>
> "Imitation is the greatest compliment"
>
> You have the last word.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight
> Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
> Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your
> comments and
> addressed some replies made by others as well. But then
> I decided that I
> was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into
> an even bigger
> fiasco than it already is. This whole topic should have
> never come up
> on the YAK List. The very question that was originally
> asked, should
> have never been asked, on the YAK list. We should all
> be asking
> ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can
> prevent people
> in the future from coming here asking for such support
> to begin with. I
> submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would
> naturally be the
> place to go, and such discussion as this might be more
> on-topic than
> say... Here.
>
> But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and
> since you are
> clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have
> flown so many
> missing man formations yourself, would you mind please
> telling me what
> branch of military aviation you received your pilots
> wings from?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of
> cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:28 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Missing man formation
>
> I've flown a lot of missing man formations. Most of
> them have been at
> airshows where it is done as part of the show dedication
> for our
> veterans in general. I have done it for generals,
> Tuskeegee airmen,
> WW2 vets, VN vets, Army, Navy etc etc. I've also done
> it for
> "civilians". One of those that I lead is the most
> memorable to me. It
> was for a lady, who was never in the service nor a
> pilot.
> But everyone
> of us in the planes and her entire town thought she was
> deserving
> enough. Her claim? She and her husband (B-17 pilot in
> the 8th AF) were
> the most active volunteers in our foundation. They were
> the impetus of
> ideas that started the foundation in its direction.
> After her husband
> passed, she continued doing everything in her power to
> support and get
> support for our bombers. She'd sewed up canvas for gun,
> cockpit, bomb
> racks, bulkheads and seat cushions. She'd sell
> T-shirts, books, key
> chains, patches, dud 50cal shells, flight jackets and
> rides
> - anything
> to keep the bombers flying. She was the understanding
> greeter for the
> vets who showed up at the airplanes. Mother confessor,
> nurse and
> commissary gal for us. She did this for 19 years.
>
> The day of the fly over this last March, found our B-17,
> B-24 and B-25
> covered with 4" of snow. We worked all morning cleaning
> off that snow.
> When done we were wet and cold and about an 1 and half
> hours late for
> our planned takeoff. "Heck we'll do it anyway". I was
> chosen to lead.
> I used Google Earth, to find the her tiny town and it's
> only cemetery.
> I lead the flight some 40 nm to a point just north and
> turn us south.
> We were in echelon right with the B-17 (her favorite
> airplane) in the
> middle. I lucked out, and hit the cemetery right on the
> nose (no GPS,
> just piloting and some dead reckoning) at 500'. At my
> call the B-17
> pulled up hard, cleared the B-25, and rolled West. My
> co-pilot was
> looking down. His words were "My God! Look at the
> people down there".
> Though we were late our timing could not have been more
> perfect. We
> were doing it for our selves but we learned later, that
> because of the
> weather the ceremony had started late and our flyover
> happen not 10
> seconds after the minister had said the finals words. We
> were told there
> wasn't a dry eye in all of Idable, OK. and quite frankly
> there were some
> tears in those cockpits. This was the only way we could
> say good-by to
> Maudy. We say our good-bys to loved ones in the best
> way we each know
> how. At least none of them didn't deserve it.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> ________________________________
>
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>
> ________________________________
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 7:45 AM
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Lose a wing lately? |
Guys you've got to see this!
I really don't know if this faked someway.
Pappy
_http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html_
(http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Marvel Mystery Oil |
MMO/gallon - I struck up a deal with my local O'Reilly's auto parts
store and buy MMO by the quart in cases (6 quarts/case) for $13.00 per
gallon plus tax.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Langford
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil
Fine if you can stand about $40.00 per gallon!
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Milbourn
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Marvel Mystery Oil
How does this work for smoke oil?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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10/29/2008 7:45 AM
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? |
Its all a good time.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:10 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation?
No, I'm waiting for the paperwork to catch up so I can go to the FSDO. I am
also taking the time to do some modifications ,upgrades and general
maintenance . Currently I am looking for a armament package so next year at
Lamar I will have a chance against a L-29 or at least a 50. I know, I know .
I will still have the same chance as this year, none.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211024#211024
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Lose a wing lately? |
Yeah Pappy, it's fake. Looked cool though.
BTW, as an old fighter pilot, if I get run over tomorrow by the lav truck at work,
I'd be proud to have you lead the missing man formation at my funeral. :D
Cheers,
Steve Dalton
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211095#211095
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Lose a wing lately? |
WILCO but you be careful out!
In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:44:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
sdalton@hughes.net writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mozam" <sdalton@hughes.net>
Yeah Pappy, it's fake. Looked cool though.
BTW, as an old fighter pilot, if I get run over tomorrow by the lav truck at
work, I'd be proud to have you lead the missing man formation at my funeral.
:D
Cheers,
Steve Dalton
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211095#211095
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? |
My plane was the test plane for it. It works great and looks good too.
The kits and labor are provided by Roger Shadick at his place - Nobel
Aviation in Eagle River, Wisconsin. KEGV
His phone number is 715-477-0719
Or cell phone 715-617-2346
Herb
On Oct 29, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Dale wrote:
>
> Does anyone know who to contact or have information on the in wing
> oil cooler relocation kit or modification?
> Dale
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210974#210974
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: 52TW Oil Cooler Relocation? |
Thanks Herb! :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211119#211119
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