---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/05/08: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:22 AM - List Fund Raiser (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:05 AM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (Nigel Willson) 2. 03:37 AM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (A. Dennis Savarese) 3. 03:38 AM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 04:29 AM - Re: Dennis Saverese issue on Yak 18T delivery (bad list reply) (Aleksej) 5. 04:41 AM - 52 (Richard Goode) 6. 04:55 AM - Re: 52 (A. Dennis Savarese) 7. 05:17 AM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (Jan Mevis) 8. 05:23 AM - CJ-6 PRV (Jim Shanks) 9. 05:46 AM - Re: CJ-6 PRV (doug sapp) 10. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Yak Fuel Gauge (netmaster15@juno.com) 11. 05:48 AM - Re: CJ-6 PRV (A. Dennis Savarese) 12. 06:31 AM - Re: 52 (bill wade) 13. 06:37 AM - Re: Yak Fuel Gauge (Craig Winkelmann) 14. 07:32 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (Etienne Verhellen) 15. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (Herb Coussons) 16. 11:59 AM - Re: Dennis Saverese issue on Yak 18T delivery (bad list reply) (Aleksej) 17. 12:11 PM - Re: CJ-6 PRV (keithmckinley) 18. 12:25 PM - Re: CJ-6 PRV (keithmckinley) 19. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (A. Dennis Savarese) 20. 01:34 PM - Calling Brian Lloyd ... (scott.huff@aivia.aero) 21. 01:36 PM - Re: CJ-6 PRV (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 22. 04:27 PM - Re: Cockpit bulbs (N642K) 23. 04:39 PM - Re: Landing Gear Indicator LED's (N642K) 24. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 (Jan Mevis) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:03 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Yak-List: List Fund Raiser A couple of years ago I implemented an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages. Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, he or she will instantly cease to receive these Fund Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple. Don't you wish PBS worked that way! :-) I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware and software that are required to run a List Site like this. It also goes to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the huge electric bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered on. I run all of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercials that are so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have it on my Email List sites. If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [Note that there are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages, when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum. The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.] ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:12 AM PST US From: "Nigel Willson" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I SERIOUSLY think you're under-estimating the killing capabilities to the unwary of a Yak52 here.. Nigel Willson Uk aerobatic display pilot From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SD737@aol.com Sent: 05 November 2008 00:09 Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics. You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone. Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics. Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft. CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing. _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav0 0000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:29 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 For those that wish to see the entire article including the figures and tables referred to, see attached. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Jan Mevis To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:00 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 This is very interesting. Is it possible to get the full text somehow, somewhere ? Willing to pay for it! And if I read it well, there=92s a strong argument against closing the aileron gaps in order to improve the roll rate ? Jan From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 4:26 To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 Here's an article that some may not have read concerning spins in the Yak 52. The last two sentences of the Introduction are of the utmost importance. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Davisson To: Yak List Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I have probably as much inside/outside flat spin experience as most and the first time in the 52 52 surprised me with the higher than amount of force it took to get the stick out of the corner. Nothing dangerous, once you know it's there, but certainly "different." I was told it's centrifugal force working on the counterweights. Is there any truth to that? bd On 11/4/08 7:17 PM, "barryhancock" wrote: > > > I don't know how this ended up in this thread, but I have to respond. > > The Yak-52 IS a straightforward aircraft, but it does have some unusual > characteristics. Upright flat the stick is "pinned" in the corner and takes > considerable force to get it out. A couple of very high time pilots have > been killed in the -52 because they didn't understand the spin characteristics > and/or recovery techniques. > > I'm not trying to scare people, quite the contrary. It is a great aircraft > for it's purpose and is very predictable once you are familiar with it's > characteristics. BUT to say you go out and fly a -52 within your limits as > the end of the discussion neglects getting into situations your unaccustomed > to at an inopportune moment. At those times it's training, type specific > training, that could save your life. > > Go out and get full spin training in the aircraft. It will make you a more > confident and capable pilot, and it's fun! > > Barry (I sell CJ's, but have many hours in Yaks and think they're great too) > Hancock > > -------- > Barry Hancock > Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. > www.worldwidewarbirds.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212360#212360 > > > > > > > > > > nbsp; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics ========================< ; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _============= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:35 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 Unwary and untrained. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Willson To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:02 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I SERIOUSLY think you=92re under-estimating the killing capabilities to the unwary of a Yak52 here=85. Nigel Willson Uk aerobatic display pilot From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SD737@aol.com Sent: 05 November 2008 00:09 To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics. You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone. Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics. Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft. CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcnt ustrav00000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Y ak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:15 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Dennis Saverese issue on Yak 18T delivery (bad list reply) From: "Aleksej" frenchsukhoi wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I am Rmi DUBOIS director of Frenchsukhoi company. I'm dealing with eastern country and I have also problems with Liutauras. I know the position of Dennis because I'm in the same...between my customers and Liutauras. > Just to make it simple: I started 5 court case against Liutauras this month. > We invested over 100 000 in Anabaras company for deposits and we didn't see nothing. Dennis, if you see my post, you can contact me on my email: remi(at)frenchsukhoi.fr > Rmi. I hope when you return your money from Liutauras you will be able to return your dept 1130 euro to Konstantin Shluinskij for Yak-50 to you. (Contract, 2004. 10. 30 signiture of Nicolas DUMON) Aleksej Dzygalo Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212467#212467 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:54 AM PST US From: "Richard Goode" Subject: Yak-List: 52 Dennis-like you I sell 52s.But it really is misleading to say that a 52 is simple and forgiving,since in some spins it certainly is not! A 52 WILL allways recover from a spin,BUT it really does need good instruction for a pilot to be sure of recovery from a developed flat spin,and it is not that unusual for this to occur from a mis-handled stall-turn. The 52 is a great plane and an excellent aerobatic one at that.But it is only safe in aerobatics IF the pilot has had correct instruction from someone who really knows the type. I have seen the consequences when this training has not been done. Richard Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:00 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: 52 Richard, I don't believe at anytime I said that it was simple and forgiving because I too do NOT believe it is "simple and forgiving" in certain spin situations. We are clearly on the same page and I echo your insight. Once again, proper training is paramount. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Goode To: YAK USA LIST Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Yak-List: 52 Dennis-like you I sell 52s.But it really is misleading to say that a 52 is simple and forgiving,since in some spins it certainly is not! A 52 WILL allways recover from a spin,BUT it really does need good instruction for a pilot to be sure of recovery from a developed flat spin,and it is not that unusual for this to occur from a mis-handled stall-turn. The 52 is a great plane and an excellent aerobatic one at that.But it is only safe in aerobatics IF the pilot has had correct instruction from someone who really knows the type. I have seen the consequences when this training has not been done. Richard Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:32 AM PST US From: "Jan Mevis" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 Great! Thanks, Dennis ! Jan From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 12:36 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 For those that wish to see the entire article including the figures and tables referred to, see attached. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Jan Mevis Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:00 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 This is very interesting. Is it possible to get the full text somehow, somewhere ? Willing to pay for it! And if I read it well, there's a strong argument against closing the aileron gaps in order to improve the roll rate ? Jan From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 4:26 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 Here's an article that some may not have read concerning spins in the Yak 52. The last two sentences of the Introduction are of the utmost importance. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Davisson Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I have probably as much inside/outside flat spin experience as most and the first time in the 52 52 surprised me with the higher than amount of force it took to get the stick out of the corner. Nothing dangerous, once you know it's there, but certainly "different." I was told it's centrifugal force working on the counterweights. Is there any truth to that? bd On 11/4/08 7:17 PM, "barryhancock" wrote: > > > I don't know how this ended up in this thread, but I have to respond. > > The Yak-52 IS a straightforward aircraft, but it does have some unusual > characteristics. Upright flat the stick is "pinned" in the corner and takes > considerable force to get it out. A couple of very high time pilots have > been killed in the -52 because they didn't understand the spin characteristics > and/or recovery techniques. > > I'm not trying to scare people, quite the contrary. It is a great aircraft > for it's purpose and is very predictable once you are familiar with it's > characteristics. BUT to say you go out and fly a -52 within your limits as > the end of the discussion neglects getting into situations your unaccustomed > to at an inopportune moment. At those times it's training, type specific > training, that could save your life. > > Go out and get full spin training in the aircraft. It will make you a more > confident and capable pilot, and it's fun! > > Barry (I sell CJ's, but have many hours in Yaks and think they're great too) > Hancock > > -------- > Barry Hancock > Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. > www.worldwidewarbirds.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212360#212360 > > > > > > > > > > nbsp; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics==== ===================<; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _============= href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:47 AM PST US From: "Jim Shanks" Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV The Press Regulating Valve on my CJ is only "hissing" when pressure gets to 45 ATM and doesn't "pop" smartly. it allows overpressure on a long flight or when serviced with a Scuba bottle. I've had the spring/piston combo removed and cleaned, reinstalled and then adjusted the PRV with the same results. Sound like it needs a new spring/piston? Next question: Are the Yak and CJ PRV innards identical? Last time I checked Doug did not have the parts but Jill does.....neither is sure they are interchangeable. Also, can just the rubber tip on the piston be replaced without having to get the whole brass/rubber combo? Thanks. Jim Shanks shankeroid@verizon.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:02 AM PST US From: "doug sapp" Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV Jim, I have been told that they should be changed in pairs if you are goinf from a 52 into a CJ or visa versa. In my stock I do have the brass valve but no springs at this time, I also have the complete pop off valve factory new for $85.00. Doug On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 5:23 AM, Jim Shanks wrote: > The Press Regulating Valve on my CJ is only "hissing" when pressure > gets to 45 ATM and doesn't "pop" smartly. it allows overpressure on a long > flight or when serviced with a Scuba bottle. I've had the spring/piston > combo removed and cleaned, reinstalled and then adjusted the PRV with the > same results. Sound like it needs a new spring/piston? > Next question: Are the Yak and CJ PRV innards identical? Last time I > checked Doug did not have the parts but Jill does.....neither is sure they > are interchangeable. > Also, can just the rubber tip on the piston be replaced without having > to get the whole brass/rubber combo? > > Thanks. > > Jim Shanks > shankeroid@verizon.net > > > * > > -- Always Yakin, Doug Sapp Phone 509-826-4610 Fax 509-826-3644 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:32 AM PST US From: "netmaster15@juno.com" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak Fuel Gauge Chris, If you find a second unit, please let me know as I have the s ame problem. Thanks Cliff netmaster15@juno.com wrote : Thanks for the responses. It looks like I've located one that one of ou r members has. If not I'll try WLAC. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212363#212363 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:44 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV The reason it is "hissing" is because the break over pressure has been reached. It's not really necessary for it to pop. As long as it regulates the pressure properly by opening at the preset pressure, it should be just fine. The real issue is at what point does it stop "hissing" or at what pressure does it stop once the PRV opens? You can adjust the pressure relief point by turning the "top hat" in or out and then locking it back down with the jam nut. If I am not mistaken someone on the list said the pistons were not interchangeable. However, Jill does have replacement piston seals. They will not last as long as an original piston seal will. It's the durometer of the rubber in the new piston seal. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Shanks To: Yak List Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV The Press Regulating Valve on my CJ is only "hissing" when pressure gets to 45 ATM and doesn't "pop" smartly. it allows overpressure on a long flight or when serviced with a Scuba bottle. I've had the spring/piston combo removed and cleaned, reinstalled and then adjusted the PRV with the same results. Sound like it needs a new spring/piston? Next question: Are the Yak and CJ PRV innards identical? Last time I checked Doug did not have the parts but Jill does.....neither is sure they are interchangeable. Also, can just the rubber tip on the piston be replaced without having to get the whole brass/rubber combo? Thanks. Jim Shanks shankeroid@verizon.net ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:46 AM PST US From: bill wade Subject: Re: Yak-List: 52 Guys I earlier wrote that the flat spin is the one maneuver that will ruin your whole day without proper instruction and altitude and that still stand s! In all fairness to the guys selling these aircraft-what I should have added is that I've been flying the Yak 52 for 10 years now.-My prior flyi ng experience was 1,300hrs flying straight and level in a 172. After a year of getting familiar with the Yak I started flying-acro and of all the ma neuvers I've screwed up (and I screw up a lot) especially the hammer head -NEVER has the airplane shown any bad flight characteristics or gone more than 1/4 turn before normal recovery. Possibly what I should have said is that until you have proper training in flat spin recovery in the 52 you hav e no idea how little to no control you have over the aircraft and as the in structor is doing all the right things to save the bacon your saying to you rself would I have done that for soooo long? =0A=0AThis has been my experie nce =0ABill Wade =0AN4450Y=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0AFrom: A. Dennis Savarese =0ATo: yak-list@ma tronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 7:54:37 AM=0ASubject: Re: Y ak-List: 52=0A=0A=0ARichard,=0AI don't believe at anytime I said-that it was simple and forgiving because I too do-NOT-believe it is "simple and forgiving" in certain spin situations.-- We are clearly on the same pa ge and I echo your insight.- Once again, proper training is paramount.- =0A-=0ADennis=0A-=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Richard Good e =0ATo: YAK USA LIST =0ASent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:41 AM=0ASubje ct: Yak-List: 52=0A=0ADennis-like you I sell 52s.But it really is misleadin g to say that a 52 is simple and forgiving,since in some spins it certainly is not!=0AA 52 WILL allways recover from a spin,BUT it really does need go od instruction for a pilot to be sure of recovery from a developed flat spi n,and it is not that unusual for this to occur from a mis-handled stall-tur n.=0AThe 52 is a great plane and an excellent aerobatic one at that.But it is only safe in aerobatics IF the pilot has had correct instruction from so meone who really knows the type.=0AI have seen the consequences when this t raining has not been done.=0ARichard=0A=0ARichard Goode Aerobatics=0ARhodds Farm=0ALyonshall=0AHereford=0AHR5 3LW=0AUnited Kingdom=0A=0ATel:-- +44 (0) 1544 340120=0AFax:- +44 (0) 1544 340129=0Awww.russianaeros.com=0A=0A href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com /chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums == =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:12 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak Fuel Gauge From: "Craig Winkelmann" If the Yak 52 has resistive sending units, why not just replace the Russian version with an EI gauge? EI makes some nice stuff. There is also one made by CruzPro that is interesting. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/cruzDigitalFuel.php Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212492#212492 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:45 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 From: "Etienne Verhellen" Spinning in the Yak 52 ... A few observations ... (but please do get proper type specific training in YOUR Yak 52) : 1. It doesn't hurt to use 2 hands on the stick to recover from a "good" flat spin. The Russians do it. (And indeed centrifugal force on the counterweight is probably part of the force required ... IMHO). 2. A great way to enter a good flat spin is a modified stall turn (hammerhead). I mean, this is the easiest way to consistently enter into an intentional flat spin during training. So I guess if you are going to fly stall turns it is probably a good idea to ask an instructor to show you what a flat spin entry looks like ... even if you do not intend to fly them in the future. 3. Nobody mentioned "unloading" the stick : once the spin has been flattened it can be further (!!) accelerated by unloading the elevator a small amount. Are we having FUN yet ? 4. Recovery from this intentional flat spin would work something like that : opposite rudder, stick back (if you have unloaded), stick to the other side and then forward. Recovery will be more consistent than going straight to the "final" position. 5. Recovery will be faster (and easier) WITH power ON ... if you know what you are doing. To recover from intentional (flat) spinning the correct control will always work. In the Yak-52, they will work better with power on. The wrong inputs will not recover from a spin. The wrong inputs with power on will make the lack of recovery even more certain. 6. As for the Inverted accelerated and Inverted flat spins, I find them quite hard to maintain because of the centrifugal force under negative g's. And remember out-spin aileron in an inverted spin means moving the aileron control to the same side to that which the rudder is applied. 7 . What about the cross-over spin : entering an inverted spin from a stall in level upright flight ? Competition spins ? One turn, 1 and 1/4, 1 and 1/2 ... (Exits must be vertical). Or going straight from a one turn and a half upright spin into an inverted spin, a potentially disconcerting and dangerous situation ... This "change-over" spin is maybe the cause of a few fatal accident in the Pitts Special. Etc ... etc ... So to state the obvious one last time : Emergency and planned spin recovery techniques must be taught in a TYPE specific manner with an Instructor experienced on TYPE. Now, I must get my parachute checked ... Cheers, Etienne. -------- http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/photos/profile.php?uid=84 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212499#212499 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:03 AM PST US From: Herb Coussons Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I agree with the 152 assessment - it is designed to be stable and will almost always recover if the pilot lets go and quits the control input for stall/spin. The 52 will not recover like this in developed spins. The 52 is aerodynamically more unstable than the 152. It has to be flown out of the spin. And, once the spin develops in certain situations the mass of the fuel and the centrifugal force will not be overcome by the control inputs. This is worse in the 52W and 52TW which carry more fuel. This is why the 55 and the 52 have acro fuel limitations. This is also part of the reason why the Sukhoi has the fuel mass centrally located in the fuselage - to avoid the inertial problems inherent to the 52. I have not had a chance to read Dennis's article but will tonight - I look forward to learning more about our planes. The key as others have mentioned is to learn the characteristics that lead to problems, get training and practice stalls / spins, upright, inverted, flat, normal, accelerated and crossover. Then as pilot, the developed spin problems will be recognized and avoided. The kind of spins a few very good pilots have ridden to the ground. Herb On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:09 PM, SD737@aol.com wrote: > The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall > characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the > capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics. > > You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! > Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong > inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out > of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone. > > Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/ > forgiving flight characteristics. > > Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic > trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine > aircraft. > > CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if > you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and > give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing. > > > Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001 > ">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:21 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Dennis Saverese issue on Yak 18T delivery (bad list reply) From: "Aleksej" It is email to me from blackmailer: "Hello Aleksej, If you keep this word on matronics I will post this for you: -I will put a claim on the criminal court against you and constantin for maintenance sabotage on this yak50. We found, on the yak 50 you sold, a cigar in the fuel system that could occur a engine stop in flight. Of course we have the report from an official lawyer with pictures. So, think about it Aleksej and remove your post from matronics." Who is bigger swindler? [Wink] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212539#212539 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:18 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: CJ-6 PRV From: "keithmckinley" Jim, Suggest you check the previous/recent posts on this very subject. It was covered in detail and should answer your questions Keith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212544#212544 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:20 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: CJ-6 PRV From: "keithmckinley" Jim, The link below is a thread on this list that was on this very subject. It may help you out. Keith 700HS http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=49923 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212546#212546 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:11 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 The article "Spins Unspun" that I posted was not mine, but belonged to the Yak Pilots Association and was published in the Warbird Flyer, 3rd Quarter of 2002. The original Warbird Flyer the article appeared in is attached for anyone who wishes to read it. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Herb Coussons To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I agree with the 152 assessment - it is designed to be stable and will almost always recover if the pilot lets go and quits the control input for stall/spin. The 52 will not recover like this in developed spins. The 52 is aerodynamically more unstable than the 152. It has to be flown out of the spin. And, once the spin develops in certain situations the mass of the fuel and the centrifugal force will not be overcome by the control inputs. This is worse in the 52W and 52TW which carry more fuel. This is why the 55 and the 52 have acro fuel limitations. This is also part of the reason why the Sukhoi has the fuel mass centrally located in the fuselage - to avoid the inertial problems inherent to the 52. I have not had a chance to read Dennis's article but will tonight - I look forward to learning more about our planes. The key as others have mentioned is to learn the characteristics that lead to problems, get training and practice stalls / spins, upright, inverted, flat, normal, accelerated and crossover. Then as pilot, the developed spin problems will be recognized and avoided. The kind of spins a few very good pilots have ridden to the ground. Herb On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:09 PM, SD737@aol.com wrote: The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics. You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone. Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics. Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft. CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcnt ustrav00000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:55 PM PST US From: scott.huff@aivia.aero Subject: Yak-List: Calling Brian Lloyd ... Did you recently list a '65 Aztec (N15KY) for sale on TAP? If this is the same Brian Lloyd and N15KY is still for sale, can you please contact me off list? I'd like to know more about your airplane, if it hasn't sold already. Thanks! Thanks, Scott Huff scott.huff@aivia.aero 540-809-9334 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Ok, I explained this poorly last time... Let me try again please. My bad. The piston diameter and length is identical between CJ and YAK, with the exception of the YAK-52TW and MAYBE the 52W. Not sure about the 52W. This means that the piston, the piece with the rubber on top.... Is completely interchangable between CJ's and YAKS. The spring used with the CJ has less turns with a larger diameter coil wire. The YAK uses more turns with a slightly smaller diameter coil wire in the spring itself. The overall LENGTHS of the two springs are different and that is important. It is possible to interchange springs and pistons, but I had some unusual results when I did that and was unable to adjust the air properly. I then discovered that the CAP... The part that you turn in to adjust the pressure, (Top Hat, CAP, whatever it is called) is different between the CJ and the YAK. That is why the springs are different between the two as well. I really did not explain this properly in my last posting and I appologize for being too vague. Fact is, it took me going back to look at the whole mess again to remember exactly what was going on. So here we go... Hope this not too confusing. 1. The pistons are identical in both models. 2. The springs are not, as described above. 3. The part that screws down and adjusts the pressure is different between the CJ and the YAK ... HOWEVER, the CJ part will screw right on the YAK valve body AND vice versa. The top hat, or screw on part...the part that adjusts the pressure has a different overall LENGTH between the CJ and the YAK. If I remember correctly the CJ Top Hat is SHORTER. Thus the SPRING is shorter too. So, you can put in a new piston from either CJ or YAK and interchange freely as long as you use the original spring. If the original spring is worn out, or you suspect that, and you use the new CJ spring , then you need to use a new CJ top hat and vice versa. Springs rarely go bad. Yes, you can replace just the rubber tip, but I have NEVER had it work as well when I have tried that. Mark Bitterlich P.s. My valve only "hisses" as well. When it was brand spanking new it would "pop", now it hisses. Still works though, but is very very sensitive to adjustment. P.p.s. Sorry for screwing this explanation up last time. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV The reason it is "hissing" is because the break over pressure has been reached. It's not really necessary for it to pop. As long as it regulates the pressure properly by opening at the preset pressure, it should be just fine. The real issue is at what point does it stop "hissing" or at what pressure does it stop once the PRV opens? You can adjust the pressure relief point by turning the "top hat" in or out and then locking it back down with the jam nut. If I am not mistaken someone on the list said the pistons were not interchangeable. However, Jill does have replacement piston seals. They will not last as long as an original piston seal will. It's the durometer of the rubber in the new piston seal. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Shanks To: Yak List Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 PRV The Press Regulating Valve on my CJ is only "hissing" when pressure gets to 45 ATM and doesn't "pop" smartly. it allows overpressure on a long flight or when serviced with a Scuba bottle. I've had the spring/piston combo removed and cleaned, reinstalled and then adjusted the PRV with the same results. Sound like it needs a new spring/piston? Next question: Are the Yak and CJ PRV innards identical? Last time I checked Doug did not have the parts but Jill does.....neither is sure they are interchangeable. Also, can just the rubber tip on the piston be replaced without having to get the whole brass/rubber combo? Thanks. Jim Shanks shankeroid@verizon.net href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:18 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Cockpit bulbs From: "N642K" Are those for a CJ or Yak? Do you sell those led's or can you pass on the part number. (I'm looking to replace the gear bulbs in a -6a. FJ30v) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212592#212592 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:00 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Landing Gear Indicator LED's From: "N642K" Did anybody do this? Most of the links are dead. I don't quite get how this conversion works. Ideas? Thanks in advance. Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212594#212594 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:26 PM PST US From: "Jan Mevis" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 Once again, thanks a lot ! Jan From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 21:30 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 The article "Spins Unspun" that I posted was not mine, but belonged to the Yak Pilots Association and was published in the Warbird Flyer, 3rd Quarter of 2002. The original Warbird Flyer the article appeared in is attached for anyone who wishes to read it. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Herb Coussons Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 I agree with the 152 assessment - it is designed to be stable and will almost always recover if the pilot lets go and quits the control input for stall/spin. The 52 will not recover like this in developed spins. The 52 is aerodynamically more unstable than the 152. It has to be flown out of the spin. And, once the spin develops in certain situations the mass of the fuel and the centrifugal force will not be overcome by the control inputs. This is worse in the 52W and 52TW which carry more fuel. This is why the 55 and the 52 have acro fuel limitations. This is also part of the reason why the Sukhoi has the fuel mass centrally located in the fuselage - to avoid the inertial problems inherent to the 52. I have not had a chance to read Dennis's article but will tonight - I look forward to learning more about our planes. The key as others have mentioned is to learn the characteristics that lead to problems, get training and practice stalls / spins, upright, inverted, flat, normal, accelerated and crossover. Then as pilot, the developed spin problems will be recognized and avoided. The kind of spins a few very good pilots have ridden to the ground. Herb On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:09 PM, SD737@aol.com wrote: The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics. You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone. Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics. Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft. CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing. _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav0 0000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref="ht tp://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.