Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:18 AM - Away Message (Tyson V. Rininger)
2. 06:49 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Roger Kemp MD)
3. 08:35 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Dick Watson)
4. 08:42 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 11/16/08 (SD737@aol.com)
5. 08:49 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Barry Hancock)
6. 12:18 PM - Missing Man Formation (byronmfox)
7. 02:25 PM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Dale)
8. 03:22 PM - IFR in our aircraft (Craig Payne)
9. 05:23 PM - Re: Missing Man Formation (KingCJ6@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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Thanks for the note!
I'll be out of the country, returning on the 22nd. Email access will most likely
be sporadic, however I will do my best to get back to you as soon as possible.
Many thanks,
Tyson
Message 2
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| Subject: | Missing Man Formation |
3 pulls up and climbs "until out of sight." Then 3 turns in whatever
direction is needed to solve the angles for a rejoin past the view of the
bereaved on the ground. With a YAK or CJ that may be hard to do. Me
personally, I try to climb at least 1000-1500 ft on a line with the flight
but at 50-60 degrees of pitch (ie climb straight ahead) until adequate
altitude separation is obtained. Since the flight is flying level and you
are climbing at an acute angle, you have easy nose tail separation with the
flight.
With adequate smash from the flight prior to the pull of 3, I can see
2000-2500 feet altitude change before starting the turn to set up a rejoin.
That is with the YAK 50 now. You are not going to see that with the CJ or a
YAK-52.
Doc
Missing Man Formation
Spads Fly Over College Station
Pilots from Air Force Reserve Command's 301st FW in Fort Worth flew a
missing-man formation last November over Kyle Field in College Station,
Texas, before the start of the Texas A&M vs. University of Texas football
game. The flyover followed an invocation and a period of silence to honor
the eleven students and one A&M graduate killed during the construction of
the annual Texas A&M bonfire. Four A&M graduates flew the mission in F-16s
from the wing's 457th FS.
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/03RelatedStories/03.10.FunStuff/FunStuffScans/Miss
ingManForm.gif
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Missing Man Formation |
I think you are making it more complicated than it is. When I flew as
missing man in the military, we flew standard fingertip either right or
left. At the break, 3 went straight up, perhaps a 35 to 40 degree climb,
and when well clear of the flight, exited 90 degrees away. No attempt to
turn until well clear -- perhaps 500 or 1000 feet -- vertically.
Dick Watson, Isle of Palms (Charleston), SC, 843-886-4533
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 11/16/08 |
Hello Elmar,
It seems that it is a rather "clique" group on the Yak List and not always
open to other view points or opinions.
The CJ Yak list does provide an excellent forum for information, but at
times it is like a bunch of old ladies that have nothing better to do with their
time than get on the list and rant and rave about things that are of little
interest to anyone.
Then there is the "pack" mentality. If the group doesn't like a view point
then they tend to pack up and hammer the opinion or view point they don't
like.
A lot of the information is outstanding, but quite a bit of it consists of
guys just wanting to see and hear themselves jabber away.
Anyhow, yours is an important input even though it was not "popular".
There is very good information that is on the Yak list, and then it
basically comes down to a popularity social forum such as with a bunch of old
ladies, and if they don't agree with your viewpoint then you're the bad guy.
Everyone on here does seem to have the common interest to provide a resource
of information and camaraderie and even though your experience or opinion
wasn't popular it is still valid and presents an accountability that is
valuable.
If someone on the list is offering the service of selling parts and
something doesn't work out it should be brought to their attention to those on
the
list so that people are made aware of the positives and negatives of a
situation and this will in turn keep us all informed good or bad and that vendor
can
in turn give his or her side of the story.
It's called feed back and provides us all information.
With email there is no inflection of voice or body language and since you
stated English is not your primary native language, your emails seem to come
across as accusatory and possibly misunderstood by some of the "gentlemen" on
the list.
I would suggest you stay active on the list and don't let them push you off
the list.
At this point it's clearly a dead horse! Shall we beat it some more guys?
Scott
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Missing Man Formation |
On Nov 16, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> We flew a missing man yesterday for a friend. During the brief,
> there a was
>
> a discussion about how #3 should leave the formation.- Assume the
> flight i
> s
> flying north to south. Should #3 pull up and west over #4, calling
> for a
> fingertip strong right? Or, should #3 pull up and west over #1 and
> #2, calli
> ng for a
> fingertip strong left? What say you?- Thanks, Blitz
Blitz,
It's always such an honor to participate in the aviator's farewell.
The missing man departs into the setting sun, which you got. I don't
know if there is a protocol for which side of the formation it
happens from. Thinking aloud here...from a shear safety standpoint
it doesn't seem it would matter. If you go towrads #1&2 you are
behind 1 and abeam 2 to start with, which means you'll never fly over
an aircraft in the process. Which is the same for 4, because your
pull will put you well clear both vertically and laterally as a
result of the angles. The important thing is that #3 pull from your
cruise speed (maybe 130 KIAS in the CJ) to Vy and then start the turn
and hold Vy. This looks the best, in my opinion. Also, go give #3
a little added smash for the pull, lead can head a little down hill
on the run in to give you a little extra E for the pull. It's a
subtlety the observers won't notice.
I'm sure others have other ideas, but in all the MM formations I've
done, this seems to work best.
Regards,
Barry
R
Message 6
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| Subject: | Missing Man Formation |
Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the subject:
Blitz,
I looked into it at work today and this is what I found.- I know you guys
fly using a lot of Navy formation stuff, so it may be a little different.
- I'm afraid I can only speak from an Air Force reg perspective.- The st
andard Air Force 4-ship formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the r
ight.- Therefore for in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 w
ill split west over #4.- The only other thing I could find was that missin
g man formations are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremon
y permitting) with #3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break
over #1 and #2.
It must have been a moving experience to be a part of.- I wish I could hav
e seen you guys executing it.- Hope all is well!
Brent
--
Byron M. Fox
TDA Investment Group
1214 Donnelly Avenue
Burlingame, CA 94010
650-343-6333
650-343-0858 Fax
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Missing Man Formation |
Gentlemen,
I did a missing man this weekend twice where the EAA B-17 was on display in Colorado
for the veterans day event. I did a moderate pull from three and a slow
turn away from the formation and left the smoke on until I had gained 1500 and
was a mile away. Bobby with the EAA's B-17 said there was not a dry eye in the
crowd ( I'm not taking the credit ). Seems to me it didn't matter which way
or how, just the fact that someone cared enough to do it.
I Credit my fellow Colorado Yak Pack flier's for a job well done.
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214761#214761
Message 8
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| Subject: | IFR in our aircraft |
Saw some chatter about flying IFR in Yaks/CJ's. Better have a autopilot. Whilst
ruminating about what to stuff in my Blank panels, I poured my favorite CFII
in the rear hole and flew a simple under-the-hood mission from Lakeland up to
Gainesville, shot a missed non-precision approach on my Garmin and went home,
a 1.8 hour flight. What a Bitch! Flipping charts, plates, etc. proved really hard
while staying on course. While we were in VFR conditions, there was a gusty
crosswind and some mild turbulence. Refolding the enroute chart caused major
digressions in controlled flight and prompted recovery procedures every time!
But...there is good news, the new Garmin 695/696 big screen portable could fit
nicely in one of those blank panels I have yet to cut.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Missing Man Formation |
Yesterday, I talked to Maj. Tim Decker, former F-117 pilot and a current U-2
Squad Commander at Beale AFB. His input:
"After a healthy vertical pull up, #3 turns towards the briefed join-up
area, rather that away because -
1) this expedites the join-up and
2) there is less chance of loosing visual on the main flight, thus it's
safer"
Dave
In a message dated 11/17/2008 12:19:34 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
byronmfox@aol.com writes:
Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the subject:
Blitz,
I looked into it at work today and this is what I found. I know you guys
fly using a lot of Navy formation stuff, so it may be a little different. I'm
afraid I can only speak from an Air Force reg perspective. The standard Air
Force 4-ship formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the right.
Therefore for in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 will split west
over #4. The only other thing I could find was that missing man formations
are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremony permitting) with
#3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break over #1 and #2.
It must have been a moving experience to be a part of. I wish I could have
seen you guys executing it. Hope all is well!
Brent
--
Byron M. Fox
TDA Investment Group
1214 Donnelly Avenue
Burlingame, CA 94010
650-343-6333
650-343-0858 Fax
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