---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/17/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:18 AM - Away Message (Tyson V. Rininger) 2. 06:49 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Roger Kemp MD) 3. 08:35 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Dick Watson) 4. 08:42 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 11/16/08 (SD737@aol.com) 5. 08:49 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Barry Hancock) 6. 12:18 PM - Missing Man Formation (byronmfox) 7. 02:25 PM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Dale) 8. 03:22 PM - IFR in our aircraft (Craig Payne) 9. 05:23 PM - Re: Missing Man Formation (KingCJ6@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:26 AM PST US From: "Tyson V. Rininger" Subject: Yak-List: Away Message Thanks for the note! I'll be out of the country, returning on the 22nd. Email access will most likely be sporadic, however I will do my best to get back to you as soon as possible. Many thanks, Tyson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:00 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp MD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Missing Man Formation 3 pulls up and climbs "until out of sight." Then 3 turns in whatever direction is needed to solve the angles for a rejoin past the view of the bereaved on the ground. With a YAK or CJ that may be hard to do. Me personally, I try to climb at least 1000-1500 ft on a line with the flight but at 50-60 degrees of pitch (ie climb straight ahead) until adequate altitude separation is obtained. Since the flight is flying level and you are climbing at an acute angle, you have easy nose tail separation with the flight. With adequate smash from the flight prior to the pull of 3, I can see 2000-2500 feet altitude change before starting the turn to set up a rejoin. That is with the YAK 50 now. You are not going to see that with the CJ or a YAK-52. Doc Missing Man Formation Spads Fly Over College Station Pilots from Air Force Reserve Command's 301st FW in Fort Worth flew a missing-man formation last November over Kyle Field in College Station, Texas, before the start of the Texas A&M vs. University of Texas football game. The flyover followed an invocation and a period of silence to honor the eleven students and one A&M graduate killed during the construction of the annual Texas A&M bonfire. Four A&M graduates flew the mission in F-16s from the wing's 457th FS. http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/03RelatedStories/03.10.FunStuff/FunStuffScans/Miss ingManForm.gif ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:15 AM PST US From: "Dick Watson" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Missing Man Formation I think you are making it more complicated than it is. When I flew as missing man in the military, we flew standard fingertip either right or left. At the break, 3 went straight up, perhaps a 35 to 40 degree climb, and when well clear of the flight, exited 90 degrees away. No attempt to turn until well clear -- perhaps 500 or 1000 feet -- vertically. Dick Watson, Isle of Palms (Charleston), SC, 843-886-4533 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:34 AM PST US From: SD737@aol.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 11/16/08 Hello Elmar, It seems that it is a rather "clique" group on the Yak List and not always open to other view points or opinions. The CJ Yak list does provide an excellent forum for information, but at times it is like a bunch of old ladies that have nothing better to do with their time than get on the list and rant and rave about things that are of little interest to anyone. Then there is the "pack" mentality. If the group doesn't like a view point then they tend to pack up and hammer the opinion or view point they don't like. A lot of the information is outstanding, but quite a bit of it consists of guys just wanting to see and hear themselves jabber away. Anyhow, yours is an important input even though it was not "popular". There is very good information that is on the Yak list, and then it basically comes down to a popularity social forum such as with a bunch of old ladies, and if they don't agree with your viewpoint then you're the bad guy. Everyone on here does seem to have the common interest to provide a resource of information and camaraderie and even though your experience or opinion wasn't popular it is still valid and presents an accountability that is valuable. If someone on the list is offering the service of selling parts and something doesn't work out it should be brought to their attention to those on the list so that people are made aware of the positives and negatives of a situation and this will in turn keep us all informed good or bad and that vendor can in turn give his or her side of the story. It's called feed back and provides us all information. With email there is no inflection of voice or body language and since you stated English is not your primary native language, your emails seem to come across as accusatory and possibly misunderstood by some of the "gentlemen" on the list. I would suggest you stay active on the list and don't let them push you off the list. At this point it's clearly a dead horse! Shall we beat it some more guys? Scott **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:18 AM PST US From: Barry Hancock Subject: Yak-List: Re: Missing Man Formation On Nov 16, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote: > We flew a missing man yesterday for a friend. During the brief, > there a was > > a discussion about how #3 should leave the formation.- Assume the > flight i > s > flying north to south. Should #3 pull up and west over #4, calling > for a > fingertip strong right? Or, should #3 pull up and west over #1 and > #2, calli > ng for a > fingertip strong left? What say you?- Thanks, Blitz Blitz, It's always such an honor to participate in the aviator's farewell. The missing man departs into the setting sun, which you got. I don't know if there is a protocol for which side of the formation it happens from. Thinking aloud here...from a shear safety standpoint it doesn't seem it would matter. If you go towrads #1&2 you are behind 1 and abeam 2 to start with, which means you'll never fly over an aircraft in the process. Which is the same for 4, because your pull will put you well clear both vertically and laterally as a result of the angles. The important thing is that #3 pull from your cruise speed (maybe 130 KIAS in the CJ) to Vy and then start the turn and hold Vy. This looks the best, in my opinion. Also, go give #3 a little added smash for the pull, lead can head a little down hill on the run in to give you a little extra E for the pull. It's a subtlety the observers won't notice. I'm sure others have other ideas, but in all the MM formations I've done, this seems to work best. Regards, Barry R ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:32 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Missing Man Formation From: byronmfox Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the subject: Blitz, I looked into it at work today and this is what I found.- I know you guys fly using a lot of Navy formation stuff, so it may be a little different. - I'm afraid I can only speak from an Air Force reg perspective.- The st andard Air Force 4-ship formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the r ight.- Therefore for in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 w ill split west over #4.- The only other thing I could find was that missin g man formations are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremon y permitting) with #3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break over #1 and #2. It must have been a moving experience to be a part of.- I wish I could hav e seen you guys executing it.- Hope all is well! Brent -- Byron M. Fox TDA Investment Group 1214 Donnelly Avenue Burlingame, CA 94010 650-343-6333 650-343-0858 Fax ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:57 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Missing Man Formation From: "Dale" Gentlemen, I did a missing man this weekend twice where the EAA B-17 was on display in Colorado for the veterans day event. I did a moderate pull from three and a slow turn away from the formation and left the smoke on until I had gained 1500 and was a mile away. Bobby with the EAA's B-17 said there was not a dry eye in the crowd ( I'm not taking the credit ). Seems to me it didn't matter which way or how, just the fact that someone cared enough to do it. I Credit my fellow Colorado Yak Pack flier's for a job well done. Dale Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214761#214761 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:30 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Yak-List: IFR in our aircraft Saw some chatter about flying IFR in Yaks/CJ's. Better have a autopilot. Whilst ruminating about what to stuff in my Blank panels, I poured my favorite CFII in the rear hole and flew a simple under-the-hood mission from Lakeland up to Gainesville, shot a missed non-precision approach on my Garmin and went home, a 1.8 hour flight. What a Bitch! Flipping charts, plates, etc. proved really hard while staying on course. While we were in VFR conditions, there was a gusty crosswind and some mild turbulence. Refolding the enroute chart caused major digressions in controlled flight and prompted recovery procedures every time! But...there is good news, the new Garmin 695/696 big screen portable could fit nicely in one of those blank panels I have yet to cut. Craig Payne cpayne@joimail.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:30 PM PST US From: KingCJ6@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Missing Man Formation Yesterday, I talked to Maj. Tim Decker, former F-117 pilot and a current U-2 Squad Commander at Beale AFB. His input: "After a healthy vertical pull up, #3 turns towards the briefed join-up area, rather that away because - 1) this expedites the join-up and 2) there is less chance of loosing visual on the main flight, thus it's safer" Dave In a message dated 11/17/2008 12:19:34 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, byronmfox@aol.com writes: Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the subject: Blitz, I looked into it at work today and this is what I found. I know you guys fly using a lot of Navy formation stuff, so it may be a little different. I'm afraid I can only speak from an Air Force reg perspective. The standard Air Force 4-ship formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the right. Therefore for in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 will split west over #4. The only other thing I could find was that missing man formations are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremony permitting) with #3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break over #1 and #2. It must have been a moving experience to be a part of. I wish I could have seen you guys executing it. Hope all is well! Brent -- Byron M. Fox TDA Investment Group 1214 Donnelly Avenue Burlingame, CA 94010 650-343-6333 650-343-0858 Fax (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List) **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. 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