---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/18/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:20 AM - What Members Are Saying... (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:17 AM - Away Message (Tyson V. Rininger) 2. 12:46 AM - 18T Long Range Tanks (Anthony Hudacek) 3. 06:34 AM - Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Richard Goode) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Gpw678@aol.com) 5. 06:55 AM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Budd Davisson) 6. 07:05 AM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Richard Goode) 7. 07:31 AM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Gpw678@aol.com) 8. 07:46 AM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Richard Goode) 9. 08:36 AM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Gill Gutierrez) 10. 09:31 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 11. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Missing Man Formation (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 12. 10:53 AM - Re: Missing Man Formation (Dale) 13. 01:03 PM - Re: Yak-18T Longrange tanks (Roger Kemp MD) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:28 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Yak-List: What Members Are Saying... Dear Listers, November is the Annual Matronics List Fund Raiser. The Lists are supported solely through your generous Contributions during this time. Please make your Contribution today and pick up a really nice free gift at this same time: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Listers have been including some really nice comments regarding what the Lists mean to them along with their Contributions this year. I've included a few of them below. Please read them over and see if some perhaps echo your feelings as well. Thank you for your support this year! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best bargain in the entire industry!! -Owen B Every year your lists are better, sure #1 in e-mail list in the world. -Gary G Thank you for an awesome site! -Ashley M Your lists are important to me and well worth paying for. -Calvin A Thank you for providing such and informative and ad free environment to learn by. -Myron H As always, a valuable and extremely useful resource. Stephen T As always, a great service. -Reade G Very much appreciate this site and the communications it has enabled between builders. -Larry M This service is worth every penny. -Robert S Great site! 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The Zenith builder's community would be in sad shape without the Zenith-List's. -Terrence P I really do get pleasure out of reading the List every day. -Bill V Great source of information. -Arthur V Thanks for a great service. Very enjoyable. -Louis B You know we all could not do without your support!! -James S Great resource! -Douglas D Thanks for the great service. -John B ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:08 AM PST US From: "Tyson V. Rininger" Subject: Yak-List: Away Message Thanks for the note! I'll be out of the country, returning on the 22nd. Email access will most likely be sporadic, however I will do my best to get back to you as soon as possible. Many thanks, Tyson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:42 AM PST US From: Anthony Hudacek Subject: Yak-List: 18T Long Range Tanks Hi all,Have just purchased a set of long range tanks for my Yak 18T and wou ld like to know if anyone has some detailed installation instructions that they could pass on. Looks like a rib plus the wing stiffners need to be rem oved in order to fit the tanks.Thanks, Ant. =0A=0A=0A Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 M ail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:18 AM PST US From: "Richard Goode" Subject: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks We have been involved in the design of 18T long-range tanks, working with Yakovlev in Moscow. I am concerned that it might be seen as an easy conversion to install the tanks. I say this not in any kind of commercially protective fashion, but simply because it is a very significant modification, involving the removal of much of the wing's strength, and then replacing it, and, unless it is done absolutely correctly, the wings strength will be seriously compromised. It is not like adding a "wet-wing" to a 52, where the fundamental structure is unchanged, but the tank replaces a number of ribs and stringers. In addition, once the wing is disassembled, they inevitably warp, and so installation of the tanks must be done inside a wing jig, which holds the entire structure in place, while the wing is being re-made. Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Herefordshire HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129 www.russianaeros.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:49 AM PST US From: Gpw678@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks We had one in South Africa using a tank in the luggage compartment Didn't work to well until a pump was fitted ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks From: Budd Davisson Speaking as a structural engineer (ASE), I was concerned when I saw his original post and I=B9m glad to see you post this. I can verify that what Richard is saying is true. Taking major structure (ribs, stringers, etc) ou t of a monocoque structure like a wing isn=B9t to be taken lightly. bd On 11/18/08 7:31 AM, "Richard Goode" wrote : > We have been involved in the design of 18T long-range tanks, working with > Yakovlev in Moscow. > > I am concerned that it might be seen as an easy conversion to install the > tanks. I say this not in any kind of commercially protective fashion, bu t > simply because it is a very significant modification, involving the remov al of > much of the wing's strength, and then replacing it, and, unless it is don e > absolutely correctly, the wings strength will be seriously compromised. > > It is not like adding a "wet-wing" to a 52, where the fundamental structu re is > unchanged, but the tank replaces a number of ribs and stringers. > > In addition, once the wing is disassembled, they inevitably warp, and so > installation of the tanks must be done inside a wing jig, which holds the > entire structure in place, while the wing is being re-made. > > Richard Goode Aerobatics > Rhodds Farm > Lyonshall > Herefordshire > HR5 3LW > United Kingdom > > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120 > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129 > www.russianaeros.com > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:03 AM PST US From: "Richard Goode" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks The baggage bay tanks are a simple and good mod.and should not need a pump since the tank is a lot higher than the wing tanks,so I would suspect another problem such as venting. HOWEVER,having 90/130 litres of 100LL behind you in the fueselage is not the best idea IF you have an accident. ALSO,with heavy guys in the rear seat and a full baggage tank,you can get well outside the rear CofG limit!! Richard Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gpw678@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks We had one in South Africa using a tank in the luggage compartment Didn't work to well until a pump was fitted ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by http://www.invictawiz.com and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:12 AM PST US From: Gpw678@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Richard as usual, you are correct, when full fuel of approx. 110 litres the C of G was well back and trim was almost full forward for level flight. The cash issue was always there with so much fuel on board. Not crashing was by far the best solution we could come up with. Indeed the only reason we installed it was the vast distances sometimes involved in X country flights in South Africa. In Europe, I don't think I would bother Cheers Gerald ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:01 AM PST US From: "Richard Goode" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks We have made several 18Ts with 360 litre wing-tanks and 130 litre baggage tanks[which can be removed in about 30 minutes]-so 490 litres [130 US gallons],almost 10 hours at economical cruise! Richard Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gpw678@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Richard as usual, you are correct, when full fuel of approx. 110 litres the C of G was well back and trim was almost full forward for level flight. The cash issue was always there with so much fuel on board. Not crashing was by far the best solution we could come up with. Indeed the only reason we installed it was the vast distances sometimes involved in X country flights in South Africa. In Europe, I don't think I would bother Cheers Gerald ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by http://www.invictawiz.com and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:32 AM PST US From: "Gill Gutierrez" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Richard, I hope you added oil capacity and softer seats too. Gill _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks We have made several 18Ts with 360 litre wing-tanks and 130 litre baggage tanks[which can be removed in about 30 minutes]-so 490 litres [130 US gallons],almost 10 hours at economical cruise! Richard Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gpw678@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Richard as usual, you are correct, when full fuel of approx. 110 litres the C of G was well back and trim was almost full forward for level flight. The cash issue was always there with so much fuel on board. Not crashing was by far the best solution we could come up with. Indeed the only reason we installed it was the vast distances sometimes involved in X country flights in South Africa. In Europe, I don't think I would bother Cheers Gerald href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by http://www.invictawiz.com and is believed to be clean. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 5:24 PM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Missing Man Formation From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" I thought we all agreed to drop this subject? Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KingCJ6@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Missing Man Formation Yesterday, I talked to Maj. Tim Decker, former F-117 pilot and a current U-2 Squad Commander at Beale AFB. His input: "After a healthy vertical pull up, #3 turns towards the briefed join-up area, rather that away because - 1) this expedites the join-up and 2) there is less chance of loosing visual on the main flight, thus it's safer" Dave In a message dated 11/17/2008 12:19:34 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, byronmfox@aol.com writes: Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the subject: Blitz, I looked into it at work today and this is what I found. I know you guys fly using a lot of Navy formation stuff, so it may be a little different. I'm afraid I can only speak from an Air Force reg perspective. The standard Air Force 4-ship formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the right. Therefore for in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 will split west over #4. The only other thing I could find was that missing man formations are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremony permitting) with #3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break over #1 and #2. It must have been a moving experience to be a part of. I wish I could have seen you guys executing it. Hope all is well! Brent -- Byron M. Fox TDA Investment Group 1214 Donnelly Avenue Burlingame, CA 94010 650-343-6333 650-343-0858 Fax ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Yak-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ ?redir=http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0 0000001">Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Missing Man Formation From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Dale, Various members of the YAK list have made formal complaints to the List Owner Matt Dralle about the whole subject of missing man formations being discussed on the YAK List. That said, can you please take the discussion of this topic elsewhere please? Thank you for your consideration. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 5:23 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Missing Man Formation Gentlemen, I did a missing man this weekend twice where the EAA B-17 was on display in Colorado for the veterans day event. I did a moderate pull from three and a slow turn away from the formation and left the smoke on until I had gained 1500 and was a mile away. Bobby with the EAA's B-17 said there was not a dry eye in the crowd ( I'm not taking the credit ). Seems to me it didn't matter which way or how, just the fact that someone cared enough to do it. I Credit my fellow Colorado Yak Pack flier's for a job well done. Dale Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214761#214761 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:57 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Missing Man Formation From: "Dale" Interesting Mark. I don't see how this is related to rock and roll , who the hell is running for president, my mother or what beer I drink. It looked to me like formation flying and I was in a Yak. I take exception to your statement as not being a related subject. Have a nice Veterans Day!! Dale Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215018#215018 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:27 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp MD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Along with relief tubes too! Doc From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gill Gutierrez Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:36 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Richard, I hope you added oil capacity and softer seats too. Gill _____ From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks We have made several 18Ts with 360 litre wing-tanks and 130 litre baggage tanks[which can be removed in about 30 minutes]-so 490 litres [130 US gallons],almost 10 hours at economical cruise! Richard Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gpw678@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak-18T Longrange tanks Richard as usual, you are correct, when full fuel of approx. 110 litres the C of G was well back and trim was almost full forward for level flight. The cash issue was always there with so much fuel on board. Not crashing was by far the best solution we could come up with. Indeed the only reason we installed it was the vast distances sometimes involved in X country flights in South Africa. In Europe, I don't think I would bother Cheers Gerald href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by http://www.invictawiz.com and is believed to be clean. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.