Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:59 AM - Texas crash (Russ)
2. 08:16 AM - Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (GreasySideUp)
3. 08:54 AM - Re: Texas CJ crash (N642K)
4. 09:42 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Herb Coussons)
5. 11:32 AM - Fw: Texas CJ crash (resend) (Mark Davis)
6. 02:50 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 06:03 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Tim Gagnon)
8. 06:21 PM - Funeral Services for Forest "Flush" Johnson (N642K)
9. 06:24 PM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re: Fw: Texas CJ crash (resend)? (miles@wambua.com)
10. 07:35 PM - Re: cj down north of fort worth (Roger Kemp MD)
11. 10:20 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Richard Goode)
Message 1
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This came through another group I subscribe to. They are both friends of
mine, I miss them.
Elder's Meditation of the Day - January 4
"Our circle is timeless, flowing, it is a new life emerging from death-life
winning out over death."
--Lame Deer, LAKOTA
When we look at the world in the manner which the Great Spirit designed it,
we can see why it makes sense to live in harmony with it: the trees grow and
bear fruit, the fruit has seeds, the seeds fall to the ground, the ground
grows new trees, old trees die to make way for the young. Any time we think
we can interrupt this cycle or change it we will experience turmoil and
confusion. The Human Cycle exists as the baby becomes the youth, the youth
becomes the adult, the adult has children, the adult becomes the Elder, and
the Elder teaches the youth. Elders go on to the Spirit World. Spirit comes
into babies to produce new life. Flow into the flow. Be the path of least
resistance.
My Creator and my Maker, today, teach me to just flow with the river of
life.
Russ
I am a Marxist--of the Groucho tendency. - Anonymous
Message 2
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| Subject: | Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine about spin training
and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators of Yaks and Cj's that
have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude course, how many have never done
a spin and who spins their bird regularly. I am also interested if you know
of other owners that have never done spins or are a little scared of them -
Please no names. I had found much misinformation regarding the spin characteristics
of my 50 when I was a new owner, mainly on the negative/caution/scary
side that I have simply found untrue. This led me to an overcautious approach
to finding the envelope on my plane and leads me to believe there are many others
who could use a good spin training course. All planes spin a little differently
but I have found the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright, inverted
and accelerated spins and able to recover within a few degrees of where
I want to. With hundreds of spins, it has done exactly what I wanted it to
every single time which was contrary to much that I had heard as a new owner.
The conclusion I've come to is that there is a handed down fear from people not
necessarily qualified to teach spins that has negative repercussions to both
old and new owners who could really use the training.
I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins have no idea
what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a little scared of them
themselves. There is no formal couse for teaching CFI's spins. This is unfortunate
as bad habits and misinformation are passed along and perpetuated from one
CFI to the next and if there is any trepidation at all in that instructor it
will be passed immediately to the student.
Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone teaching yourself
from books, I am under the impression that a spin/upset attitude course by qualified
instructors may be a welcome benefit as a sidebar to some of our formation
clinics.
If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted maneuvers including
simple loops and rolls and are not completely confident and comfortable doing
spins I would encourage you to stop immediately and find a qualified spin instructor
for a few lessons. With a 1000 hours teaching aerobatics I have seen
more than 1 loop wind up in an unintentional inverted spin. No big deal at
all if you have seen it before. The lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you
will have a new mastery and confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft,
once you learn to spin a stall is a no brainer.
The questions are this
1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an aerobatic aircraft (Including
Yaks/Cj's)?
2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll and recovery
from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at simulated low altitudes?
6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?
7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has happened in your plane?
8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your plane( simulating inverted
wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted flight in their
plane?
Thoughts?
-Josh
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
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| Subject: | Re: Texas CJ crash |
I don't see it either.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222973#222973
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
This is a good post.
I take all of the local CFI's and give them spin opportunity. And any
other pilots that are interested.
I will respond to your questions below.
On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:15 AM, GreasySideUp wrote:
> >
>
> I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine about
> spin training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators
> of Yaks and Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset
> attitude course, how many have never done a spin and who spins their
> bird regularly. I am also interested if you know of other owners
> that have never done spins or are a little scared of them - Please
> no names. I had found much misinformation regarding the spin
> characteristics of my 50 when I was a new owner, mainly on the
> negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found untrue. This
> led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on my
> plane and leads me to believe there are many others who could use a
> good spin training course. All planes spin a little differently but
> I have found the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright,
> inverted and accelerated spins and able to recover within a few
> degrees of where I want to. With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!
> actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary to
> much that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to
> is that there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily
> qualified to teach spins that has negative repercussions to both old
> and new owners who could really use the training.
>
> I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins
> have no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a
> little scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for
> teaching CFI's spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and
> misinformation are passed along and perpetuated from one CFI to the
> next and if there is any trepidation at all in that instructor it
> will be passed immediately to the student.
>
> Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone
> teaching yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/
> upset attitude course by qualified instructors may be a welcome
> benefit as a sidebar to some of our formation clinics.
>
> If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted
> maneuvers including simple loops and rolls and are not completely
> confident and comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop
> immediately and find a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons.
> With a 1000 hours teaching aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop
> wind up in an unintentional inverted spin. No big deal at all if
> you have seen it before. The lessons will be extremely enjoyable
> and you will have a new mastery and confidence in your flying
> abilities and your aircraft, once you learn to spin a stall is a no
> brainer.
>
> The questions are this
>
> 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an aerobatic
> aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
Yes - started with Sergei 4-5 years ago.
>
> 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
Yes
>
> 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
Yes
>
> 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
No
>
> 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll
> and recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at
> simulated low altitudes?
Yes
>
> 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?
> 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has happened
> in your plane?
> 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your
> plane( simulating inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
Not intentionally :) But practicing acro in the 55 it does happen. I
always set a floor of 1500 ft agl up to 5-6000 for practice and when
working inadvetent snaps and accelerated stall / spin happens
>
> 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted
> flight in their plane?
Yes I have a good friend who will not intentionally spin his plane.
Yet he does mild acro - loops, rolls etc. Even some verticle stuff.
I think this is a recipe for disaster as the inadvertent stall spin
from an unusual attitude can be very disorienting for someone who does
not practice them. He thinks I am crazy for the acro I do. I think
he is crazy for doing the milder stuff without being trained or
experienced in stall spin. He has seen me from the ground do upright
and inverted yet will not learn them.
Herb
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Josh
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Texas CJ crash (resend) |
I had sent an e-mail to Mike DeCanio this morning asking him if he knew
any details on Forrest "Flush" Johnson's accident. His reply follows.
I'd like to emphasize his request not to start a critical thread of
guessing what happened out of respect for Forrest and his family. Make
your own assumptions and learn from them.
Mark Davis
N44YK
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the note. Yes, I know most of the details of the flight as I
was -2. I have been struggling with the idea of posting or not. I
don't want a posted tribute to Forrest turned into an accident
discussion by guys who weren't there.
Mike Cavanaugh (in his Yak) and Forrest in his M-14 powered CJ (he has
another Housai powered CJ) flew to my airport. Forrest had a GIB, Larry
Cotton. We briefed a standard local formation flight. Initial
rendevous, finger formation to the practice area, extended trail
manuevering and then break-up and rendevous'. As briefed, Mike offered
up the lead and Forrest took over. We repeated the previous order and
returned to the field with Forrest in the lead and I as -2, Mike C as
-3.
We were echelon left for a right break landing south. Forrest signaled
4 second break. He looked over to us smiled and broke. He may have
descended a little in the break. As I rolled wings level I remember
thinking he was a little tight and a little low. There was an
overshooting crosswind. Lead was just off the perch as I began my
landing checklist. I looked up just as his aircraft struck the ground
nearly vertical. It hit very hard. I went around and Mike C. was right
on the radio telling folks on the ground to dial 911. At least 2 of my
neighbors saw the entire accident. They immediately went to the scene
with a crash ax and a fire extinguisher. Personnel were on the crash
sight within 1-2 minutes. A fire ensued. There was no rescue attempt
as it was readily apparent there were no survivors.
The ground witnesses seem to feel that he was tight and in a big bank
angle nearly all the way around. Reaching nearly 90 degrees AOB just
prior to impact. I think we all have an idea what may have happened
here.
Let's be respectful to the family members. They are desperate for
answers and look to us as the experts. Let's save this accident
investigation and discussion for the NTSB and the FAA.
Please be careful in the pattern. Keep an eye on your airspeed and go
around if it gets uncomfortable.
Anybody who loved flying lost two friends yesterday.
MIke DeCanio
You may post this on the website.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Just a thought, but in the Military... All branches....Basic Aerobatic
Training ... To include spin training... Is provided to the individual
BEFORE formation training.
That said: The RPA has a number of safety requirements that an
applicant must meet or perform before receiving FAST Certification.
Might it not be worth considering that any applicant for FAST
Certification also show proof of some kind of Spin Training as a
minimum? Or ... Make Spin Training part of the FAST Curriculum?
I KNOW that the points Josh has brought up, and the questions he asks at
the end of his posting, are dead nuts accurate and acting on his advice
will save lives.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
P.S. Josh, I heard all the same stories about the 50 as you did. My 50
has also proven to be very predictable and extremely stable at low
speed. The only "story" I have yet to experiment with is the Inverted
Snap while on a 45 down line "issue". This came from a good source
though... So ????
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GreasySideUp
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
--> <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine about
spin training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators of
Yaks and Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude
course, how many have never done a spin and who spins their bird
regularly. I am also interested if you know of other owners that have
never done spins or are a little scared of them - Please no names. I
had found much misinformation regarding the spin characteristics of my
50 when I was a new owner, mainly on the negative/caution/scary side
that I have simply found untrue. This led me to an overcautious approach
to finding the envelope on my plane and leads me to believe there are
many others who could use a good spin training course. All planes spin
a little differently but I have found the 50 to be extremely predictable
in both upright, inverted and accelerated spins and able to recover
within a few degrees of where I want to. With hundreds of spins, it has
done ex!
actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary to much
that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to is that
there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily qualified to
teach spins that has negative repercussions to both old and new owners
who could really use the training.
I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins have
no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a little
scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for teaching CFI's
spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and misinformation are passed
along and perpetuated from one CFI to the next and if there is any
trepidation at all in that instructor it will be passed immediately to
the student.
Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone teaching
yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/upset
attitude course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a
sidebar to some of our formation clinics.
If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted maneuvers
including simple loops and rolls and are not completely confident and
comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop immediately and
find a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons. With a 1000 hours
teaching aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop wind up in an
unintentional inverted spin. No big deal at all if you have seen it
before. The lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you will have a new
mastery and confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft, once
you learn to spin a stall is a no brainer.
The questions are this
1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an aerobatic
aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll and
recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at
simulated low altitudes?
6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?
7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has happened in
your plane?
8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your plane( simulating
inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes) 9. Do you know an
owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted flight in their plane?
Thoughts?
-Josh
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
I sought out and attended upset and spin training prior to flying my -50 for the
first time. Money well spent and was also applicable to my civilian job flying
the G200.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223076#223076
Message 8
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| Subject: | Funeral Services for Forest "Flush" Johnson |
Funeral services for Flush will be January 7th (Wednesday) at 2:30 pm.
St Luke's Methodist Church. 3200 Denton Highway, Haltom TX.
Visitation will also be Wednesday from 1:00 to 2:00 pm.
Graveside services will follow the church service at Bluebonnet Hills Cemetary,
Colleyville, TX.
If you plan on flying in, I live on Propwash Airpark (16x, formerly 16xs) and could
probably arrange hangar space. I am 30 minutes from the Church. Feel free
to call me at 940 390-4747.
Mike DeCanio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223077#223077
Message 9
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| Subject: | Texas CJ crash (resend)? |
HI Mark,
I am a part of the yak List and usually remain silent. I am an Air Traffic Controller
and a CJ owner as well N7NF based in Georgetown TX. My heart goes out
to the family and friends who knew Flush, I never knew him but saw his email
flying by on the Yak List and a friend who knew him spoke highly of him.
I flew that same day as well and turned too tight to land runway 18 and almost
got flipped by a wind gust. I will be careful next time. Thanks for explaining.
N7NF
-----Original Message-----
From: "Mark Davis" <mark@pld.com>
Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 11:31am
Subject: Fw: Yak-List: Texas CJ crash (resend)
I had sent an e-mail to Mike DeCanio this morning asking him if he knew any details
on Forrest "Flush" Johnson's accident. His reply follows. I'd like to emphasize
his request not to start a critical thread of guessing what happened
out of respect for Forrest and his family. Make your own assumptions and learn
from them.
Mark Davis
N44YK
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the note. Yes, I know most of the details of the flight as I was -2.
I have been struggling with the idea of posting or not. I don't want a posted
tribute to Forrest turned into an accident discussion by guys who weren't
there.
Mike Cavanaugh (in his Yak) and Forrest in his M-14 powered CJ (he has another
Housai powered CJ) flew to my airport. Forrest had a GIB, Larry Cotton. We briefed
a standard local formation flight. Initial rendevous, finger formation
to the practice area, extended trail manuevering and then break-up and rendevous'.
As briefed, Mike offered up the lead and Forrest took over. We repeated
the previous order and returned to the field with Forrest in the lead and I
as -2, Mike C as -3.
We were echelon left for a right break landing south. Forrest signaled 4 second
break. He looked over to us smiled and broke. He may have descended a little
in the break. As I rolled wings level I remember thinking he was a little
tight and a little low. There was an overshooting crosswind. Lead was just off
the perch as I began my landing checklist. I looked up just as his aircraft
struck the ground nearly vertical. It hit very hard. I went around and Mike
C. was right on the radio telling folks on the ground to dial 911. At least
2 of my neighbors saw the entire accident. They immediately went to the scene
with a crash ax and a fire extinguisher. Personnel were on the crash sight
within 1-2 minutes. A fire ensued. There was no rescue attempt as it was readily
apparent there were no survivors.
The ground witnesses seem to feel that he was tight and in a big bank angle nearly
all the way around. Reaching nearly 90 degrees AOB just prior to impact.
I think we all have an idea what may have happened here.
Let's be respectful to the family members. They are desperate for answers and
look to us as the experts. Let's save this accident investigation and discussion
for the NTSB and the FAA.
Please be careful in the pattern. Keep an eye on your airspeed and go around if
it gets uncomfortable.
Anybody who loved flying lost two friends yesterday.
MIke DeCanio
You may post this on the website.
Message 10
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| Subject: | cj down north of fort worth |
This link takes you to the video of the crash site.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: cj down north of fort worth
Found the following on the web:
http://cbs11tv.com/local/fatal.plane.crash.2.899387.html
Rest in peace, "Flush".
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronald wasson" <ronwasson@mindspring.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 5:23 PM
Subject: Yak-List: cj down north of fort worth
>
> Forest Johnson crashed just north of propwash airport (16x) Gear
> and flaps down on the base to final turn. He was lead in a 3 ship.
> Hit hard nose down . Might be a stall spin accident. Both dead.
> There was a fire afterward.
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
This is something about which I have posted several times before,but if it
saves lives it must be worth repeating.
I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.
It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.
The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when
spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.
As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful controls will
allways respond to normal spin recovery action.
On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from a spin up
to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover from a
well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.
In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to themselves,and
indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction from an
experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different experience
is not enough!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:45 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
>
> I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine about spin
> training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators of Yaks and
> Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude course, how many
> have never done a spin and who spins their bird regularly. I am also
> interested if you know of other owners that have never done spins or are a
> little scared of them - Please no names. I had found much misinformation
> regarding the spin characteristics of my 50 when I was a new owner, mainly
> on the negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found untrue. This
> led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on my plane and
> leads me to believe there are many others who could use a good spin
> training course. All planes spin a little differently but I have found
> the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright, inverted and
> accelerated spins and able to recover within a few degrees of where I want
> to. With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!
> actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary to much
> that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to is that
> there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily qualified to teach
> spins that has negative repercussions to both old and new owners who could
> really use the training.
>
> I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins have
> no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a little
> scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for teaching CFI's
> spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and misinformation are passed
> along and perpetuated from one CFI to the next and if there is any
> trepidation at all in that instructor it will be passed immediately to the
> student.
>
> Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone teaching
> yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/upset attitude
> course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a sidebar to
> some of our formation clinics.
>
> If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted maneuvers
> including simple loops and rolls and are not completely confident and
> comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop immediately and find
> a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons. With a 1000 hours teaching
> aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop wind up in an unintentional
> inverted spin. No big deal at all if you have seen it before. The
> lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you will have a new mastery and
> confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft, once you learn to
> spin a stall is a no brainer.
>
> The questions are this
>
> 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an aerobatic
> aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
> 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
> 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
> 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
> 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll and
> recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at simulated
> low altitudes?
> 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?
> 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has happened in
> your plane?
> 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your plane( simulating
> inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
> 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted flight
> in their plane?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Josh
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
>
>
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