Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:18 AM - Re: Texas crash (Ira Saligman)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Craig Winkelmann)
3. 05:32 AM - Forrest's crash (Russ)
4. 07:58 AM - Re: Texas crash (N642K)
5. 08:00 AM - Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson (N642K)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (GreasySideUp)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Craig Winkelmann)
8. 10:25 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (GreasySideUp)
9. 04:54 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Craig Winkelmann)
Message 1
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Please send an address for any notes or contributions in their memory.
Ira
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Josh:
To address spins for the entire community, you need to address spins in the CJ
- which really doesn't like to spin. However, when spinning the CJ, you can enter
a steep spiral quite easily which has its own set of problems if not recognized
early. I have also read that someone managed to get a CJ into a flat spin
with much altitude needed for recovery. Gabby is probably the best person
to discuss spin characteristics of the CJ.
I am surprised to hear that the 50 has been given a bad rap in the past. As a
competition aerobatic plane, I would suspect it would be quite predictable.
I do my CFI stuff in CAP flying 182s and 172s and as such don't get the opportunity
to teach or do much in the way of spinning. Most of the effort is to teach
recognition of stalls or situations you can stall/spin. I've recently begun
to add in a discussion on the shortcomings of having the stall warning device
on only the left wing.
I think the community would be well served by a separate article in Red Alert on
the spin characteristics of each of our primary aircraft: 50, 52, 55, CJ.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223115#223115
Message 3
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http://cbs11tv.com/local/justin.plane.crash.2.900119.html
Russ
I am a Marxist--of the Groucho tendency. - Anonymous
Message 4
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I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning.
She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She said
flowers would be nice.
Notes may be sent directly to her house.
Martha Johnson
7520 Hewitt
North Richland Hills, TX 76180
Flowers should be sent to
St Luke United Methodist Church
3200 Denton Highway
Haltom City, TX
Forrest D. Johnson
1939 - 2009
Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009.
Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment: Bluebonnet
Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday
at St. Luke United Methodist Church.
Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and graduated
from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He
owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member of
Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional Airport,
where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also
a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church in
Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight pilot,
flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a sixth-generation
Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony
in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was an
avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting.
Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife, Kathy,
of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington; sisters,
Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington; grandchildren,
Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many
nieces and nephews.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223130#223130
Message 5
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| Subject: | Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson |
I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning.
She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She said
flowers would be nice.
Notes may be sent directly to her house.
Martha Johnson
7520 Hewitt
North Richland Hills, TX 76180
Flowers should be sent to
St Luke United Methodist Church
3200 Denton Highway
Haltom City, TX
Forrest D. Johnson
1939 - 2009
Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009.
Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment: Bluebonnet
Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday
at St. Luke United Methodist Church.
Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and graduated
from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He
owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member of
Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional Airport,
where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also
a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church in
Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight pilot,
flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a sixth-generation
Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony
in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was an
avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting.
Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife, Kathy,
of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington; sisters,
Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington; grandchildren,
Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many
nieces and nephews.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223131#223131
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Guys, this is great stuff!! Thank you for all the emails. I am going to gather
data for a little while longer and try and post results but already there is
a common trend emerging. Those that have had spin and upset attitude training
in any aircraft are very comfortable in their own planes but most all of you
know someone who is flying aerobatics that has a fear of spins. Regardless of
the characteristics between the Yaks and CJ airframes, a 1 turn vs. 3 turn vs.
inverted flat, it looks as though some more education and training may be in
order.
I got into a spin as a very young student pilot many years ago - during a stall
a wing dropped, I put in full opposite aileron and off we went. It was followed
by screaming from my instructor on how I nearly killed us with no explanation
on why it happened. I carried that fear of stalls for the next 300 hours,
tensing up on every check ride and never practicing on my solos for fear of killing
myself. Finally I took an upset attitude course that changed everything.
After a few falling leafs and spins that fear was instantly over. A stall
was suddenly no big deal. What I learned is that my instructor had very limited
knowledge of stalls and post departure flight and that fear was undoubtedly
passed on not only me but all of his students.
I fell in love with aerobatics, got involved with competition and eventually teaching
and over the years I found 2 things repeated by almost all my students.
Even after an hour briefing, the vast majority, when a wing drops during a stall,
will throw opposite aileron. When put in an inverted position (ie wake turbulence)
they will try to pull out no matter what the altitude. Everything
we learn in flying tells us to do these two things and without instruction can
not be be un-learned by reading alone. It doesn't take a mastery of fully developed
advanced spins (ie accelerated flat) to be safe doing aerobatics - but
rather to have a full understanding of how to get into and out of a regular spin
and more importantly recognize the pre-spin departure circumstances and recover
before the spin develops. A developed cross controlled spin simulating
an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can easily
be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss. I have seen more than
one hammerhead enter an inverted spin, but if you recognize the plane is about
to go it is easily avoidable and the gravity will do all the work for you.
An inadvertent inverted spin by doing acro with no training however can be a
recipe for disaster.
I can say this for sure, if you have trepidation at all regarding any type of stall
it will be cured with a good spin training course. If you are not comfortable
with spins, aerobatics and ACM should not be performed under any circumstances.
Keep the discussion going!!
Josh
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223132#223132
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Josh:
> A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye watering
but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered without
any altitude loss.
I'll challenge you on this. A fully developed spin has gone past the incipient
stage and you have already lost altitude.
The cross-controlled stall is exciting as the wing opposite the direction of turn
(the higher wing) drops and rolls the plane quite abruptly. I've only done
a few, but they do get your attention.
Also, tossing in opposite aileron in an incipient spin produces adverse yaw which
just makes the situation worse.
Rich Stowell in his excellent book on stalls and spins gives the PARE technique
a blessing:
P - power to idle
A - Ailerons NEUTRAL
R - Full opposite rudder to stop rotation
E - Elevator forward to break the stall (reduce the AOA)
This is of course for upright stalls.
If you've ever watched a video of a test pilot in a flat spin talking thru control
inputs that have no effect and then putting his hand up in the air while the
plane continues to spin (attempt at the old "just let go technique") it is
sobering. The pilot I watched got out only thru deployment of a spin chute.
This was in a Gruman Tiger I think. Certainly not a plane certificated for doing
this and after watching the video, there is a good reason why!!
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223144#223144
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Absolutely correct Craig, I misspoke. A developed spin will most definitely incur
an altitude loss, I meant to say if you recognize it at its incipient phase
you can recover before the spin develops. The difficulty with these spins is
that there is very little warning and if you have not seen it before it will
be difficult to recognize. There is often never enough altitude to recover from
a spin in the pattern so it is paramount to know what the signs are to break
that chain of events. The nose low, high side, cross controlled spins in particular
are sobering to most with just how quickly they snap around. With an
immediate recovery after departure it still leaves you in an extremely nose
low attitude and at base altitudes are generally not recoverable. If however
you have seen it before, as with all types of spins, it is easy to recognize and
the real recovery happens before the aircraft ever departs.
I've found a rough Wag in most "aerobatic" aircraft is about 300-500 feet per rotation
and another 500 to recover. Variations occur with more advanced spins,
less advanced aircraft (ie the AT-6) or super expensive aircraft (a-la the F-16)
but that is a story over a cold beer sometime....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223154#223154
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Josh:
I misspoke too (typing fast at work!)...the PARE technique is for recovery from
a developed upright SPIN not an upright STALL.
Here is the F-22 in a stall.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR1HNDwxwpw
Craig
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223247#223247
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