---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/06/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:18 AM - Re: Texas crash (Ira Saligman) 2. 05:30 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Craig Winkelmann) 3. 05:32 AM - Forrest's crash (Russ) 4. 07:58 AM - Re: Texas crash (N642K) 5. 08:00 AM - Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson (N642K) 6. 08:06 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (GreasySideUp) 7. 09:43 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Craig Winkelmann) 8. 10:25 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (GreasySideUp) 9. 04:54 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Craig Winkelmann) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:18 AM PST US From: "Ira Saligman" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Texas crash Please send an address for any notes or contributions in their memory. Ira ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:02 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll From: "Craig Winkelmann" Josh: To address spins for the entire community, you need to address spins in the CJ - which really doesn't like to spin. However, when spinning the CJ, you can enter a steep spiral quite easily which has its own set of problems if not recognized early. I have also read that someone managed to get a CJ into a flat spin with much altitude needed for recovery. Gabby is probably the best person to discuss spin characteristics of the CJ. I am surprised to hear that the 50 has been given a bad rap in the past. As a competition aerobatic plane, I would suspect it would be quite predictable. I do my CFI stuff in CAP flying 182s and 172s and as such don't get the opportunity to teach or do much in the way of spinning. Most of the effort is to teach recognition of stalls or situations you can stall/spin. I've recently begun to add in a discussion on the shortcomings of having the stall warning device on only the left wing. I think the community would be well served by a separate article in Red Alert on the spin characteristics of each of our primary aircraft: 50, 52, 55, CJ. Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223115#223115 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:36 AM PST US From: "Russ" Subject: Yak-List: Forrest's crash http://cbs11tv.com/local/justin.plane.crash.2.900119.html Russ I am a Marxist--of the Groucho tendency. - Anonymous ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:05 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Texas crash From: "N642K" I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning. She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She said flowers would be nice. Notes may be sent directly to her house. Martha Johnson 7520 Hewitt North Richland Hills, TX 76180 Flowers should be sent to St Luke United Methodist Church 3200 Denton Highway Haltom City, TX Forrest D. Johnson 1939 - 2009 Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009. Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment: Bluebonnet Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and graduated from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member of Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional Airport, where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church in Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight pilot, flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a sixth-generation Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was an avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting. Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife, Kathy, of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington; sisters, Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington; grandchildren, Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many nieces and nephews. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223130#223130 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:14 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson From: "N642K" I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning. She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She said flowers would be nice. Notes may be sent directly to her house. Martha Johnson 7520 Hewitt North Richland Hills, TX 76180 Flowers should be sent to St Luke United Methodist Church 3200 Denton Highway Haltom City, TX Forrest D. Johnson 1939 - 2009 Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009. Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment: Bluebonnet Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and graduated from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member of Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional Airport, where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church in Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight pilot, flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a sixth-generation Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was an avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting. Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife, Kathy, of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington; sisters, Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington; grandchildren, Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many nieces and nephews. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223131#223131 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:43 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll From: "GreasySideUp" Guys, this is great stuff!! Thank you for all the emails. I am going to gather data for a little while longer and try and post results but already there is a common trend emerging. Those that have had spin and upset attitude training in any aircraft are very comfortable in their own planes but most all of you know someone who is flying aerobatics that has a fear of spins. Regardless of the characteristics between the Yaks and CJ airframes, a 1 turn vs. 3 turn vs. inverted flat, it looks as though some more education and training may be in order. I got into a spin as a very young student pilot many years ago - during a stall a wing dropped, I put in full opposite aileron and off we went. It was followed by screaming from my instructor on how I nearly killed us with no explanation on why it happened. I carried that fear of stalls for the next 300 hours, tensing up on every check ride and never practicing on my solos for fear of killing myself. Finally I took an upset attitude course that changed everything. After a few falling leafs and spins that fear was instantly over. A stall was suddenly no big deal. What I learned is that my instructor had very limited knowledge of stalls and post departure flight and that fear was undoubtedly passed on not only me but all of his students. I fell in love with aerobatics, got involved with competition and eventually teaching and over the years I found 2 things repeated by almost all my students. Even after an hour briefing, the vast majority, when a wing drops during a stall, will throw opposite aileron. When put in an inverted position (ie wake turbulence) they will try to pull out no matter what the altitude. Everything we learn in flying tells us to do these two things and without instruction can not be be un-learned by reading alone. It doesn't take a mastery of fully developed advanced spins (ie accelerated flat) to be safe doing aerobatics - but rather to have a full understanding of how to get into and out of a regular spin and more importantly recognize the pre-spin departure circumstances and recover before the spin develops. A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss. I have seen more than one hammerhead enter an inverted spin, but if you recognize the plane is about to go it is easily avoidable and the gravity will do all the work for you. An inadvertent inverted spin by doing acro with no training however can be a recipe for disaster. I can say this for sure, if you have trepidation at all regarding any type of stall it will be cured with a good spin training course. If you are not comfortable with spins, aerobatics and ACM should not be performed under any circumstances. Keep the discussion going!! Josh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223132#223132 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:51 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll From: "Craig Winkelmann" Josh: > A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss. I'll challenge you on this. A fully developed spin has gone past the incipient stage and you have already lost altitude. The cross-controlled stall is exciting as the wing opposite the direction of turn (the higher wing) drops and rolls the plane quite abruptly. I've only done a few, but they do get your attention. Also, tossing in opposite aileron in an incipient spin produces adverse yaw which just makes the situation worse. Rich Stowell in his excellent book on stalls and spins gives the PARE technique a blessing: P - power to idle A - Ailerons NEUTRAL R - Full opposite rudder to stop rotation E - Elevator forward to break the stall (reduce the AOA) This is of course for upright stalls. If you've ever watched a video of a test pilot in a flat spin talking thru control inputs that have no effect and then putting his hand up in the air while the plane continues to spin (attempt at the old "just let go technique") it is sobering. The pilot I watched got out only thru deployment of a spin chute. This was in a Gruman Tiger I think. Certainly not a plane certificated for doing this and after watching the video, there is a good reason why!! Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223144#223144 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:28 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll From: "GreasySideUp" Absolutely correct Craig, I misspoke. A developed spin will most definitely incur an altitude loss, I meant to say if you recognize it at its incipient phase you can recover before the spin develops. The difficulty with these spins is that there is very little warning and if you have not seen it before it will be difficult to recognize. There is often never enough altitude to recover from a spin in the pattern so it is paramount to know what the signs are to break that chain of events. The nose low, high side, cross controlled spins in particular are sobering to most with just how quickly they snap around. With an immediate recovery after departure it still leaves you in an extremely nose low attitude and at base altitudes are generally not recoverable. If however you have seen it before, as with all types of spins, it is easy to recognize and the real recovery happens before the aircraft ever departs. I've found a rough Wag in most "aerobatic" aircraft is about 300-500 feet per rotation and another 500 to recover. Variations occur with more advanced spins, less advanced aircraft (ie the AT-6) or super expensive aircraft (a-la the F-16) but that is a story over a cold beer sometime.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223154#223154 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:59 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll From: "Craig Winkelmann" Josh: I misspoke too (typing fast at work!)...the PARE technique is for recovery from a developed upright SPIN not an upright STALL. Here is the F-22 in a stall..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR1HNDwxwpw Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223247#223247 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.