Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:33 AM - Spins (Jerry Painter)
2. 01:31 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/06/09 (SRGraham)
3. 02:42 PM - Re: Spins (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 02:59 PM - Re: Spins (keithmckinley)
5. 03:21 PM - Re: Spins (Herb Coussons)
6. 04:47 PM - Re: Spins (Dr Andre Katz)
7. 05:57 PM - Re: Spins (Yak Pilot)
8. 07:08 PM - OFF TOPIC - Cell phones for soldiers (KingCJ6@aol.com)
9. 07:54 PM - Re: Spins (Richard Goode)
10. 09:47 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Andrew Love)
11. 11:09 PM - All Red Star Date Change (num1pilot@aol.com)
Message 1
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Gents--
Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and thoroughly
flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but I'm unaware of
any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or Nanchangs regarding
fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were required to demonstrate
some sort of spin recovery capability and documented demonstrated recovery
techniques, something at least equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic
airplane certification (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
Anecdotes ain't documentation.
Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation spins in
a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in Gene Beggs'
or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning Yaks
or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to hold in a spin
but put a little weight in the tail and its a different matter. We all
know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin accidents. Too many highly
skilled, highly experienced pilots have been killed in lots of different
airplanes that were supposed to be safe to spin. Art Scholl--who was famous
for his airshow 27-turn inverted flat spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman Yankees you
have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think the
airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had intended)
Engineers get it wrong, too.
The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way back,
stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed controls base
to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not stalling at low
altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and especially--though I hate
to say it--piss poor piloting technique. It's not the entry, it's not the
recovery, its awareness and avoidance that must be learned and exercised.
That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage, the
bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to do
that?
Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper instruction
and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great: De Le vigilance,
encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
www.FlyWBA.com
JP@FlyWBA.com
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| Subject: | RE: Yak-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/06/09 |
Hi matt, I have managed to forget my past word and access details. Could
you please read e-mail these to me. Have just completed my advanced
aerobatic course in my 18, and have a few comments to make.
Cheers Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak-List Digest
Server
Sent: Wednesday, 7 January 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Yak-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/06/09
*
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Total Messages Posted Tue 01/06/09: 9
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:18 AM - Re: Texas crash (Ira Saligman)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Craig Winkelmann)
3. 05:32 AM - Forrest's crash (Russ)
4. 07:58 AM - Re: Texas crash (N642K)
5. 08:00 AM - Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson
(N642K)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(GreasySideUp)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Craig Winkelmann)
8. 10:25 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(GreasySideUp)
9. 04:54 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Craig Winkelmann)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:18:18 AM PST US
From: "Ira Saligman" <isaligman@saligman.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Texas crash
Please send an address for any notes or contributions in their memory.
Ira
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 05:30:02 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r@gmail.com>
Josh:
To address spins for the entire community, you need to address spins in the
CJ
- which really doesn't like to spin. However, when spinning the CJ, you can
enter
a steep spiral quite easily which has its own set of problems if not
recognized
early. I have also read that someone managed to get a CJ into a flat spin
with much altitude needed for recovery. Gabby is probably the best person
to discuss spin characteristics of the CJ.
I am surprised to hear that the 50 has been given a bad rap in the past. As
a
competition aerobatic plane, I would suspect it would be quite predictable.
I do my CFI stuff in CAP flying 182s and 172s and as such don't get the
opportunity
to teach or do much in the way of spinning. Most of the effort is to teach
recognition of stalls or situations you can stall/spin. I've recently begun
to add in a discussion on the shortcomings of having the stall warning
device
on only the left wing.
I think the community would be well served by a separate article in Red
Alert on
the spin characteristics of each of our primary aircraft: 50, 52, 55, CJ.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223115#223115
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:32:36 AM PST US
From: "Russ" <duncan1574@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Forrest's crash
http://cbs11tv.com/local/justin.plane.crash.2.900119.html
Russ
I am a Marxist--of the Groucho tendency. - Anonymous
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:58:05 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Texas crash
From: "N642K" <mdecanio@mac.com>
I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning.
She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She
said
flowers would be nice.
Notes may be sent directly to her house.
Martha Johnson
7520 Hewitt
North Richland Hills, TX 76180
Flowers should be sent to
St Luke United Methodist Church
3200 Denton Highway
Haltom City, TX
Forrest D. Johnson
1939 - 2009
Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009.
Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment:
Bluebonnet
Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday
at St. Luke United Methodist Church.
Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and
graduated
from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He
owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member
of
Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional
Airport,
where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also
a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church
in
Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight
pilot,
flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a
sixth-generation
Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony
in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was
an
avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting.
Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife,
Kathy,
of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington;
sisters,
Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington;
grandchildren,
Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many
nieces and nephews.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223130#223130
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 08:00:14 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson
From: "N642K" <mdecanio@mac.com>
I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning.
She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She
said
flowers would be nice.
Notes may be sent directly to her house.
Martha Johnson
7520 Hewitt
North Richland Hills, TX 76180
Flowers should be sent to
St Luke United Methodist Church
3200 Denton Highway
Haltom City, TX
Forrest D. Johnson
1939 - 2009
Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009.
Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment:
Bluebonnet
Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday
at St. Luke United Methodist Church.
Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and
graduated
from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He
owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member
of
Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional
Airport,
where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also
a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church
in
Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight
pilot,
flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a
sixth-generation
Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony
in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was
an
avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting.
Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife,
Kathy,
of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington;
sisters,
Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington;
grandchildren,
Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many
nieces and nephews.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223131#223131
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:06:43 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
Guys, this is great stuff!! Thank you for all the emails. I am going to
gather
data for a little while longer and try and post results but already there is
a common trend emerging. Those that have had spin and upset attitude
training
in any aircraft are very comfortable in their own planes but most all of you
know someone who is flying aerobatics that has a fear of spins. Regardless
of
the characteristics between the Yaks and CJ airframes, a 1 turn vs. 3 turn
vs.
inverted flat, it looks as though some more education and training may be in
order.
I got into a spin as a very young student pilot many years ago - during a
stall
a wing dropped, I put in full opposite aileron and off we went. It was
followed
by screaming from my instructor on how I nearly killed us with no
explanation
on why it happened. I carried that fear of stalls for the next 300 hours,
tensing up on every check ride and never practicing on my solos for fear of
killing
myself. Finally I took an upset attitude course that changed everything.
After a few falling leafs and spins that fear was instantly over. A stall
was suddenly no big deal. What I learned is that my instructor had very
limited
knowledge of stalls and post departure flight and that fear was undoubtedly
passed on not only me but all of his students.
I fell in love with aerobatics, got involved with competition and eventually
teaching
and over the years I found 2 things repeated by almost all my students.
Even after an hour briefing, the vast majority, when a wing drops during a
stall,
will throw opposite aileron. When put in an inverted position (ie wake
turbulence)
they will try to pull out no matter what the altitude. Everything
we learn in flying tells us to do these two things and without instruction
can
not be be un-learned by reading alone. It doesn't take a mastery of fully
developed
advanced spins (ie accelerated flat) to be safe doing aerobatics - but
rather to have a full understanding of how to get into and out of a regular
spin
and more importantly recognize the pre-spin departure circumstances and
recover
before the spin develops. A developed cross controlled spin simulating
an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can
easily
be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss. I have seen more
than
one hammerhead enter an inverted spin, but if you recognize the plane is
about
to go it is easily avoidable and the gravity will do all the work for you.
An inadvertent inverted spin by doing acro with no training however can be a
recipe for disaster.
I can say this for sure, if you have trepidation at all regarding any type
of stall
it will be cured with a good spin training course. If you are not
comfortable
with spins, aerobatics and ACM should not be performed under any
circumstances.
Keep the discussion going!!
Josh
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223132#223132
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 09:43:51 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r@gmail.com>
Josh:
> A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye
watering
but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered
without
any altitude loss.
I'll challenge you on this. A fully developed spin has gone past the
incipient
stage and you have already lost altitude.
The cross-controlled stall is exciting as the wing opposite the direction of
turn
(the higher wing) drops and rolls the plane quite abruptly. I've only done
a few, but they do get your attention.
Also, tossing in opposite aileron in an incipient spin produces adverse yaw
which
just makes the situation worse.
Rich Stowell in his excellent book on stalls and spins gives the PARE
technique
a blessing:
P - power to idle
A - Ailerons NEUTRAL
R - Full opposite rudder to stop rotation
E - Elevator forward to break the stall (reduce the AOA)
This is of course for upright stalls.
If you've ever watched a video of a test pilot in a flat spin talking thru
control
inputs that have no effect and then putting his hand up in the air while the
plane continues to spin (attempt at the old "just let go technique") it is
sobering. The pilot I watched got out only thru deployment of a spin chute.
This was in a Gruman Tiger I think. Certainly not a plane certificated for
doing
this and after watching the video, there is a good reason why!!
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223144#223144
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 10:25:28 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
Absolutely correct Craig, I misspoke. A developed spin will most definitely
incur
an altitude loss, I meant to say if you recognize it at its incipient phase
you can recover before the spin develops. The difficulty with these spins
is
that there is very little warning and if you have not seen it before it will
be difficult to recognize. There is often never enough altitude to recover
from
a spin in the pattern so it is paramount to know what the signs are to break
that chain of events. The nose low, high side, cross controlled spins in
particular
are sobering to most with just how quickly they snap around. With an
immediate recovery after departure it still leaves you in an extremely nose
low attitude and at base altitudes are generally not recoverable. If
however
you have seen it before, as with all types of spins, it is easy to recognize
and
the real recovery happens before the aircraft ever departs.
I've found a rough Wag in most "aerobatic" aircraft is about 300-500 feet
per rotation
and another 500 to recover. Variations occur with more advanced spins,
less advanced aircraft (ie the AT-6) or super expensive aircraft (a-la the
F-16)
but that is a story over a cold beer sometime....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223154#223154
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 04:54:59 PM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r@gmail.com>
Josh:
I misspoke too (typing fast at work!)...the PARE technique is for recovery
from
a developed upright SPIN not an upright STALL.
Here is the F-22 in a stall.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR1HNDwxwpw
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223247#223247
Message 3
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So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you recommend
spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning out of
what you have written, please correct me.
If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a number
of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to think
about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have received
spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on doing
said aerobatics in.
I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That risk
starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a spin
in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs, and to
be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
slinging intended.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
Subject: Yak-List: Spins
Gents--
Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
(which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
Anecdotes ain't documentation.
Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation spins
in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in Gene
Beggs'
or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to hold
in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have been
killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted flat
spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman Yankees
you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
intended)
Engineers get it wrong, too.
The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique. It's
not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
must be learned and exercised.
That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to do
that?
Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
www.FlyWBA.com
JP@FlyWBA.com
Message 4
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Jerry that was WELL SAID
I stopped counting my flight time somewhere north of 10,000 hours, did test flights
in the AV8B, and had more wild departures that you can imagine. Have spun
every airplane I ever flew (except the AV8) and some of them inverted.
I HATE SPINS
I've done them in my CJ, know how to get into one, and out of one and that's enough
for me. Love doing every acro maneuver within the planes capability but don't
care for spins.
I don't do spins for the same reason I don't bottom out my loops below 2000-2500
feet. NO good reason to.
Call me a wuss
--------
Keith McKinley
700 HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223435#223435
Message 5
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I agree with Mark.
I know what Jerry's point is - and I would not jump on him though.
I think he is correct that a guy who does not have adequate training,
reliable data from the manufacture, or a modified plane is becoming a
test pilot.
I do not have good data and info on the Yak 52TW. I have talked to
the Romanians at OSH and they cannot supply flight testing info that
would be of any use. Also when we moved the oil cooler and modified
the leading edge of the airplane, I went up high and became a test
pilot. We had 3 different openings and a variety of fences for the
opening to the oil cooler and I went out and stalled/spun the plane
from numerous attitudes and configurations to collect the info for the
mod. We tufted the right wing to look at airflow around the opening.
So yes my experience with a newly manufactured and modified plane
confirms Jerry's conclusion that we become test pilots.
On the other hand the Yak 55 -
Good information from Russia, translated into English. An airframe
designed to compete in aerobatics with stall spin a required figure
(not to be avoided). I would say that is more what Mark is
describing. Yet it is a single place - you can talk about stall spin
on the ground all you want and read about it in the manual, but at
some point you just have to go do it. You have to take flying
experience from other planes, and people's advice and go out by
yourself and learn what the plane does. But with good information.
Herb
On Jan 7, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you
> recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning
> out of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a
> number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to
> think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have
> received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on
> doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That
> risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a
> spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs,
> and to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
> Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
> <wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation
> spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in
> Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to
> hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have
> been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted
> flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman
> Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique.
> It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want
> to do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
Message 6
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we can beat this subject to death =0Abut a few words to the wise=0AI lost a
few friends in the T-6 world- with similar situations=0Aafter 25 years a
nd many scars in my back I developed a few safe rules=0AI happen to be- n
umber 2 behind- a good friend of mine whom I had to extract from the grou
nd and hate to see this recurring.=0A=0Aoverhead approaches =0Aat 90 degree
s of bank if you load the stick (because you are pushed away due to quarter
ly winds) or mismanaged the turn (turning too late)=0Ain a T-6 there is not
enough power to recover similar in a yak and other airplanes you need 300
+ miles/hr to stay flying=0Atherefore break always high over the field, do
not extend the turn, always keep the ball in the center, its a COORDINATED
TURN=0Across control will kill you. =0AYou can have 1000 hrs of spin traini
ng and there is not a soul in the world that will save you from-braking
-your neck. You have to AVOID entering a =0Alanding stall, not enough roo
m to recover. =0A=0AIf you dont believe it, get an instructor, go to 10,000
feet, drop gear and flaps, slow it to 90 kts (landing configuration) do an
overhead approach =0Anot losing more than 400 feet in the turn and then ju
st load the stick (you will not believe how fast you will get in a full est
ablished spin)...=0A=0Aspin recovery (thanks to Nikolai for the instruction
) is absolutely needed. Any hammerhead maneuver at the top with cross contr
ol not only will get you=0Ainto a spin but possible into an inverted spin w
hich in the yaks and sukhois with their gyroscopic effects are not natural
to recover. There is the jesus =0Amaneuver to learn etc to be able to manag
e such attitudes. But unless you do aerobatic and simple formation flight p
lease be original and try a different=0Away to go. =0A=0Afly safe=0Amy thou
ghts to the flush and GIB family=0A=0Aak
Message 7
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My 2 cents yet again.- =0A=0AIn order to fully recognize when a spin is g
etting ready to happen... you have to be in the airplane a few times when i
t actually does happen.-- Period.- Of course you want to avoid a spin
in the pattern, but to avoid crossed controls and to "always keep the ball
in the middle?"- What happened to the "slip to landing" practice we all
had as private pilots?- =0A=0AWhile doing- Hammerheads it is quite comm
on to use crossed controls.- For example, .. full right rudder with just
a tad of left aileron ... because the left wing is swinging faster with a h
ammer to the right,- -it develops a tad more lift, thus a little left a
ileron is required to keep the maneuver clean without rotation of the fusel
age.- The trick is to keep it on the exact vertical line while doing this
.- When your vertical line is off, and you end up say... pushing forward
on the stick, with outboard aileron and full right rudder... you can go rig
ht into an inverted spin.- The answer is not to avoid cross controls but
to develop a good vertical line.- =0A=0AThe bottom line is that there are
many MANY ways to fly an airplane without crashing the darn thing.- More
important than anything else is attitude.- Anyone that gets at least som
ewhat serious about aerobatics knows that the first thing to achieve is not
to be afraid of the airplane.- In order to accomplish this one needs to
be convinced that he or she can recover from anything unexpected.- This t
akes training and practice and not avoidance.- =0A=0AThe question is shou
ld anyone be doing 90 degree high G Sectional breaks into the pattern multi
-ship with none of the above teaching or practice at all?- Others may dis
agree.. but I say "no".- Of course I could be wrong.- =0A=0AMark Bitter
lich=0AN50YK=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: D
r Andre Katz <bu131@swbell.net>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednes
day, January 7, 2009 7:46:41 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Spins=0A=0A=0Awe c
an beat this subject to death =0Abut a few words to the wise=0AI lost a few
friends in the T-6 world- with similar situations=0Aafter 25 years and m
any scars in my back I developed a few safe rules=0AI happen to be- numbe
r 2 behind- a good friend of mine whom I had to extract from the ground a
nd hate to see this recurring.=0A=0Aoverhead approaches =0Aat 90 degrees of
bank if you load the stick (because you are pushed away due to quarterly w
inds) or mismanaged the turn (turning too late)=0Ain a T-6 there is not eno
ugh power to recover similar in a yak and other airplanes you need 300 + mi
les/hr to stay flying=0Atherefore break always high over the field, do not
extend the turn, always keep the ball in the center, its a COORDINATED TURN
=0Across control will kill you. =0AYou can have 1000 hrs of spin training a
nd there is not a soul in the world that will save you from-braking -yo
ur neck. You have to AVOID entering a =0Alanding stall, not enough room to
recover. =0A=0AIf you dont believe it, get an instructor, go to 10,000 feet
, drop gear and flaps, slow it to 90 kts (landing configuration) do an over
head approach =0Anot losing more than 400 feet in the turn and then just lo
ad the stick (you will not believe how fast you will get in a full establis
hed spin)...=0A=0Aspin recovery (thanks to Nikolai for the instruction) is
absolutely needed. Any hammerhead maneuver at the top with cross control no
t only will get you=0Ainto a spin but possible into an inverted spin which
in the yaks and sukhois with their gyroscopic effects are not natural to re
cover. There is the jesus =0Amaneuver to learn etc to be able to manage suc
h attitudes. But unless you do aerobatic and simple formation flight please
be original and try a different=0Away to go. =0A=0Afly safe=0Amy thoughts
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 8
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| Subject: | OFF TOPIC - Cell phones for soldiers |
Here's a great opportunity to provide those who serve us a way to call home.
For the most part, their calls home are at their expense. This program
donates a 60 minute phone card for each used cell phone turned/sent in. Most
of
us probably have a few obsolete units laying around. You can mail them in
(free postage labels provided) or drop them at a local ATT site.
Dave
Program info: _http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/_
(http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/)
Drop off points: _http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/locateDropoff.asp_
(http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/locateDropoff.asp)
**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
Message 9
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Following a fatal spinning accident in a 52-flown by a highly experienced
pilot [one of the top handful of aerobatic pilots at a World Championship
level]BUT NO EXPERIENCE in the 52,I did a lot of research into this issue.
I found SEVEN different flight manuals for the 52 and ONLY ONE went into any
detail of the potential problems of recovery from developed spins!
This is because the Russians and others were being taught in a military
system where spin training was done in the aircraft with a really competent
pilot.[Also,in passing,where no pilot was allowed to fly aerobatics weighing
more than 100 kgs-220 lbs,total with clothes,parachute etc.!!]
Richard G.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spins
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning out of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs, and to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique. It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.invictawiz.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the '52
=2C but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the '55 s
eries=2C what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright through
to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may be similar to
the '50? Curious to know.
Andrew Love
Contract Pilot
NZCPL (A)Queenstown
New Zealand
P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M +64 21
818 816> From: richard.goode@russianaeros.com> To: yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal pol
l> Date: Tue=2C 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530> > --> Yak-List message posted by
: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>> > This is something abo
ut which I have posted several times before=2Cbut if it > saves lives it mu
st be worth repeating.> I have no experience with the CJ family=2Cso write
only about Yaks.> It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.> Th
e 50 is much lighter=2Cand with a much lower moment of inertia when > spinn
ing=2Cyet with the same size control surfaces.> As such the 50 is predictab
le in the spin=2Cand with powerful controls will > allways respond to norma
l spin recovery action.> On the other hand=2Cwhile the 52 will usually reco
ver quickly from a spin up > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more di
fficult to recover from a > well-developed spin=2Cparticularly if it has go
ne flat.> In my view=2CANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52=2C owes it to the
mselves=2Cand > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruc
tion from an > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with differ
ent experience > is not enough!!> Richard> Richard Goode Aerobatics> Rhodds
Farm> Lyonshall> Hereford> HR5 3LW> United Kingdom> > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 34
0120> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129> www.russianaeros.com> I'm currently in Sri
Lanka but this Mail is working=2Cand my local phone is > +94 779 132 160.>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hot
mail.com>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>> Sent: Monday=2C January 05=2C 2009
9:45 PM> Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Inform
@hotmail.com>> >> > I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA m
agazine about spin > > training and was wondering the percentage of owners/
operators of Yaks and > > Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset
attitude course=2C how many > > have never done a spin and who spins their
bird regularly. I am also > > interested if you know of other owners that h
ave never done spins or are a > > little scared of them - Please no names.
I had found much misinformation > > regarding the spin characteristics of m
y 50 when I was a new owner=2C mainly > > on the negative/caution/scary sid
e that I have simply found untrue. This > > led me to an overcautious appro
ach to finding the envelope on my plane and > > leads me to believe there a
re many others who could use a good spin > > training course. All planes sp
in a little differently but I have found > > the 50 to be extremely predict
able in both upright=2C inverted and > > accelerated spins and able to reco
ver within a few degrees of where I want > > to. With hundreds of spins=2C
it has done ex!> > actly what I wanted it to every single time which was co
ntrary to much > > that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've com
e to is that > > there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily qu
alified to teach > > spins that has negative repercussions to both old and
new owners who could > > really use the training.> >> > I'll add that many
CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins have > > no idea what is h
appening in a spin aerodynamically and are a little > > scared of them them
selves. There is no formal couse for teaching CFI's > > spins. This is unfo
rtunate as bad habits and misinformation are passed > > along and perpetuat
ed from one CFI to the next and if there is any > > trepidation at all in t
hat instructor it will be passed immediately to the > > student.> >> > Plea
se give me your thoughts=2C as I absolutely do not condone teaching > > you
rself from books=2C I am under the impression that a spin/upset attitude >
> course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a sidebar to
> > some of our formation clinics.> >> > If you are doing any aerobatics or
"Extended trail" inverted maneuvers > > including simple loops and rolls a
nd are not completely confident and > > comfortable doing spins I would enc
ourage you to stop immediately and find > > a qualified spin instructor for
a few lessons. With a 1000 hours teaching > > aerobatics I have seen more
than 1 loop wind up in an unintentional > > inverted spin. No big deal at a
ll if you have seen it before. The > > lessons will be extremely enjoyable
and you will have a new mastery and > > confidence in your flying abilities
and your aircraft=2C once you learn to > > spin a stall is a no brainer.>
>> > The questions are this> >> > 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attit
ude course in an aerobatic > > aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?> > 2. Have y
ou done a Spin in your plane?> > 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your
plane?> > 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?> > 5. H
ave you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll and > > reco
very from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at simulated > >
low altitudes?> > 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you ha
ve heard?> > 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has ha
ppened in > > your plane?> > 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery
in your plane( simulating > > inverted wake turbulence recovery at low alt
itudes)> > 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls=2C spins or inve
rted flight > > in their plane?> >> > Thoughts?> >> > -Josh> >> >> >> >> >
Read this topic online here:> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.ph
p?p=222965#222965> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------------
----------------------------> > This message has been scanned for viruses a
nd> > dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner> > and is believed to
be clean.> > http://www.invictawiz.com> > --------------------------------
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Free Windows Live software. Chat=2C search=2C share pics and more
http://get.live.com/
Message 11
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| Subject: | All Red Star Date Change |
The date of the 2009 All Red Star Fly-In has been changed.? The new date is the
first weekend of May.? Please mark your calendars, the ARS Staff looks forward
to seeing you there!? Expect registration to begin the first week of February.
2009 ALL RED STAR
April 30-May 3 2009
?????? Thursday April 30th in the afternoon?- FAST GROUND SCHOOL
?????? Friday - Sunday - FLYING!!!
Blue Skies,
-Postal
?
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