Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:39 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Richard Goode)
2. 04:53 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Scott Poehlmann)
3. 06:26 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Herb Coussons)
4. 07:55 AM - CJ6A/P Nose Weight (Larry Pine)
5. 09:20 AM - Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight (Walter Lannon)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight (nc69666@aol.com)
7. 10:40 AM - Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight (Larry Pine)
8. 10:41 AM - Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight (Larry Pine)
9. 11:34 AM - Training (Barry Hancock)
10. 11:51 AM - Altimeter (feet) (Nigel Willson)
11. 12:03 PM - Spins again (Jerry Painter)
12. 12:03 PM - Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight (dabear)
13. 01:23 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/07/09 (SRGraham)
14. 02:44 PM - Re: Spins (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
15. 02:44 PM - Re: Spins (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
16. 02:45 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 03:41 PM - Re: Spins again (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
18. 04:02 PM - Re: Spins again (Frank Stelwagon)
19. 05:23 PM - Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight (cjpilot710@aol.com)
20. 06:23 PM - Re: Spins (cjpilot710@aol.com)
21. 07:16 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Etienne Verhellen)
22. 09:02 PM - Re: Spins again (Dr Andre Katz)
23. 11:51 PM - Re: Spins (Nigel Willson)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
The 50 and 55 have very different spin characteristics,but both are
straightforward and predictable.
The 52 is not ALLWAYS predictable in a well-developed spin,BUT will
allways recover with the correct actions,but recovery can be prolonged!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone
is +94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Love
To: Yak server
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
Informal poll
The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the
'52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the
'55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright
through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may be
similar to the '50? Curious to know.
Andrew Love
Contract Pilot
NZCPL (A)
Queenstown
New Zealand
P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M +64
21 818 816
> From: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
Informal poll
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530
>
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
>
> This is something about which I have posted several times before,but
if it
> saves lives it must be worth repeating.
> I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.
> It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.
> The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when
> spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.
> As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful controls
will
> allways respond to normal spin recovery action.
> On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from a
spin up
> to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover
from a
> well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.
> In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to
themselves,and
> indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction from
an
> experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different
experience
> is not enough!!
> Richard
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Hereford
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
> www.russianaeros.com
> I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local
phone is
> +94 779 132 160.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:45 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal
poll
>
>
<greasysideup@hotmail.com>
> >
> > I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine
about spin
> > training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators of
Yaks and
> > Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude course,
how many
> > have never done a spin and who spins their bird regularly. I am
also
> > interested if you know of other owners that have never done spins
or are a
> > little scared of them - Please no names. I had found much
misinformation
> > regarding the spin characteristics of my 50 when I was a new
owner, mainly
> > on the negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found
untrue. This
> > led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on my
plane and
> > leads me to believe there are many others who could use a good
spin
> > training course. All planes spin a little differently but I have
found
> > the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright, inverted and
> > accelerated spins and able to recover within a few degrees of
where I want
> > to. With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!
> > actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary to
much
> > that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to is
that
> > there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily qualified
to teach
> > spins that has negative repercussions to both old and new owners
who could
> > really use the training.
> >
> > I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach
spins have
> > no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a
little
> > scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for teaching
CFI's
> > spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and misinformation are
passed
> > along and perpetuated from one CFI to the next and if there is any
> > trepidation at all in that instructor it will be passed
immediately to the
> > student.
> >
> > Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone
teaching
> > yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/upset
attitude
> > course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a
sidebar to
> > some of our formation clinics.
> >
> > If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted
maneuvers
> > including simple loops and rolls and are not completely confident
and
> > comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop immediately
and find
> > a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons. With a 1000 hours
teaching
> > aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop wind up in an
unintentional
> > inverted spin. No big deal at all if you have seen it before. The
> > lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you will have a new
mastery and
> > confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft, once you
learn to
> > spin a stall is a no brainer.
> >
> > The questions are this
> >
> > 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an
aerobatic
> > aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
> > 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
> > 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
> > 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
> > 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll
and
> > recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at
simulated
> > low altitudes?
> > 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?
> > 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has
happened in
> > your plane?
> > 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your plane(
simulating
> > inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
> > 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted
flight
> > in their plane?
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > -Josh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> > and is believed to be clean.
> > http://www.invictawiz.com
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Download today! Free Windows Live software. Chat, search, share pics
and more.
--------------------------------------------------
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
and is believed to be clean.
http://www.invictawiz.com/
--------------------------------------------------
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Hi Andrew,
I can't comment on the -52, but I have several hundred hours of
aerobatic competition and practice in the 55M.
The spin characteristics of the 55M are quite benign for a dedicated
acro plane. The break is fairly sharp with no tendency to mush at about
100-105 kph. In an upright spin the nose drops with the wing and by 90
degrees of turn is down at about 30 degrees below the horizon which is
where it stays unless some action is taken. Recovery after up to 4 turns
is simple, stick to neutral, opposite rudder to direction of spin, and
it takes slightly less than 1/4 turn to stop. Increasing power to about
60-70% during the recovery tends to speed up the recovery. Inverted the
situation is nearly identical, although recovery takes longer with power
off, more like 1/3 turn. With practice, the airplane can be successfully
spun with power anywhere from idle to about 90%. Flat spins can be
produced by adding power after the initial 1/2 turn to any spin, and the
effect is to bring the nose up to the horizon and increase the turn
rate. Particularly in the inverted setting, when flat, if power is not
reduced, the stick forces require both hands be used and the stick
should be pinned back or forward until rotation stops and the nose
pitches down. In "normal" (i.e,. not flat, non-accelerated) spins, the
airplane does recover with the Beggs-Mueller "hands-off" technique, but
it will not do so from a flat or accelerated spin, and requires positive
recovery in those cases.
It has little or no tendency to tumble, and has no odd spin modes (by
contrast, the Su-29 has some very odd spin modes that can be entered
with large oscillations of pitch, and a tendency to enter a tumble if
the recovery is mis-managed). I actual practice the Russians teach a
technique which allows the pilot to control the spin throughout the
incipient and early developed stages. It requires leaving power on and a
judicious combination of stick and pedal inputs, but once mastered
allows one to create a perfectly reproducible spin under any conditions.
DO NOT try to learn this yourself, rather get a Russian coach to teach
you. It isn't hard, but is somewhat disconcerting when tried the first
about 100 times.
Hope this helps.
Scott Poehlmann
Yak 55M
N155YK
Andrew Love wrote:
> The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the
> '52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the
> '55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright
> through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may
> be similar to the '50? Curious to know.
>
>
> /Andrew Love/
>
>
> /Contract Pilot /
>
> /NZCPL (A)/
> *Queenstown*
>
> *New Zealand*
>
>
> *//*
> */P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M
> +64 21 818 816/*
>
>
> > From: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
> Informal poll
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530
> >
> <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
> >
> > This is something about which I have posted several times before,but
> if it
> > saves lives it must be worth repeating.
> > I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.
> > It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.
> > The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when
> > spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.
> > As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful controls
> will
> > allways respond to normal spin recovery action.
> > On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from a
> spin up
> > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover from a
> > well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.
> > In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to
> themselves,and
> > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction from an
> > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different
> experience
> > is not enough!!
> > Richard
> > Richard Goode Aerobatics
> > Rhodds Farm
> > Lyonshall
> > Hereford
> > HR5 3LW
> > United Kingdom
> >
> > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
> > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
> > www.russianaeros.com
> > I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local
> phone is
> > +94 779 132 160.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:45 PM
> > Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
> >
> >
> <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine
> about spin
> > > training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators of
> Yaks and
> > > Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude course,
> how many
> > > have never done a spin and who spins their bird regularly. I am also
> > > interested if you know of other owners that have never done spins
> or are a
> > > little scared of them - Please no names. I had found much
> misinformation
> > > regarding the spin characteristics of my 50 when I was a new
> owner, mainly
> > > on the negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found
> untrue. This
> > > led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on my
> plane and
> > > leads me to believe there are many others who could use a good spin
> > > training course. All planes spin a little differently but I have
> found
> > > the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright, inverted and
> > > accelerated spins and able to recover within a few degrees of
> where I want
> > > to. With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!
> > > actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary to
> much
> > > that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to is that
> > > there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily qualified
> to teach
> > > spins that has negative repercussions to both old and new owners
> who could
> > > really use the training.
> > >
> > > I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach
> spins have
> > > no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a little
> > > scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for teaching
> CFI's
> > > spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and misinformation are
> passed
> > > along and perpetuated from one CFI to the next and if there is any
> > > trepidation at all in that instructor it will be passed
> immediately to the
> > > student.
> > >
> > > Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone teaching
> > > yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/upset
> attitude
> > > course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a
> sidebar to
> > > some of our formation clinics.
> > >
> > > If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted
> maneuvers
> > > including simple loops and rolls and are not completely confident and
> > > comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop immediately
> and find
> > > a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons. With a 1000 hours
> teaching
> > > aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop wind up in an unintentional
> > > inverted spin. No big deal at all if you have seen it before. The
> > > lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you will have a new
> mastery and
> > > confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft, once you
> learn to
> > > spin a stall is a no brainer.
> > >
> > > The questions are this
> > >
> > > 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an aerobatic
> > > aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
> > > 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
> > > 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
> > > 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
> > > 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll
> and
> > > recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at
> simulated
> > > low altitudes?
> > > 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?
> > > 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has
> happened in
> > > your plane?
> > > 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your plane(
> simulating
> > > inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
> > > 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted
> flight
> > > in their plane?
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > -Josh
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Read this topic online here:
> > >
> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------
> > > This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > > dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> > > and is believed to be clean.
> > > http://www.invictawiz.com
> > > -----------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download today! Free Windows Live software. Chat, search, share pics
> and more. <http://get.live.com/>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Could Scott and Richard address the developed spin and fuel load
topic? I know what I have been told and read, but I would be
interested to hear their opinions and I would like them to post so in
the archives people can search and find this information. In the 55M
and the 52TW there are fuel limitations that I understand to limit the
ability to recover from the developed spin. I believe there have been
some pilots in the standard 52 go to the ground because of the same
thing, I anm not as familiar with the standard 52 though. Yet the
Sukhoi does not have this limitation as the fuel is in the fuselage -
centrally located in the spin.
Thanks,
Herb
On Jan 8, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Scott Poehlmann wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> I can't comment on the -52, but I have several hundred hours of
> aerobatic competition and practice in the 55M.
>
> The spin characteristics of the 55M are quite benign for a dedicated
> acro plane. The break is fairly sharp with no tendency to mush at
> about 100-105 kph. In an upright spin the nose drops with the wing
> and by 90 degrees of turn is down at about 30 degrees below the
> horizon which is where it stays unless some action is taken.
> Recovery after up to 4 turns is simple, stick to neutral, opposite
> rudder to direction of spin, and it takes slightly less than 1/4
> turn to stop. Increasing power to about 60-70% during the recovery
> tends to speed up the recovery. Inverted the situation is nearly
> identical, although recovery takes longer with power off, more like
> 1/3 turn. With practice, the airplane can be successfully spun with
> power anywhere from idle to about 90%. Flat spins can be produced by
> adding power after the initial 1/2 turn to any spin, and the effect
> is to bring the nose up to the horizon and increase the turn rate.
> Particularly in the inverted setting, when flat, if power is not
> reduced, the stick forces require both hands be used and the stick
> should be pinned back or forward until rotation stops and the nose
> pitches down. In "normal" (i.e,. not flat, non-accelerated) spins,
> the airplane does recover with the Beggs-Mueller "hands-off"
> technique, but it will not do so from a flat or accelerated spin,
> and requires positive recovery in those cases.
>
> It has little or no tendency to tumble, and has no odd spin modes
> (by contrast, the Su-29 has some very odd spin modes that can be
> entered with large oscillations of pitch, and a tendency to enter a
> tumble if the recovery is mis-managed). I actual practice the
> Russians teach a technique which allows the pilot to control the
> spin throughout the incipient and early developed stages. It
> requires leaving power on and a judicious combination of stick and
> pedal inputs, but once mastered allows one to create a perfectly
> reproducible spin under any conditions. DO NOT try to learn this
> yourself, rather get a Russian coach to teach you. It isn't hard,
> but is somewhat disconcerting when tried the first about 100 times.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Scott Poehlmann
> Yak 55M
> N155YK
>
> Andrew Love wrote:
>> The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in
>> the '52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience
>> in the '55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from
>> basic upright through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a
>> '52 I guess it may be similar to the '50? Curious to know.
>>
>>
>> /Andrew Love/
>>
>> /Contract Pilot /
>>
>> /NZCPL (A)/
>> *Queenstown*
>>
>> *New Zealand*
>>
>>
>> *//* */P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189
>> I M +64 21 818 816/*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
>> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
>> Informal poll
>> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This is something about which I have posted several times
>> before,but if it
>> > saves lives it must be worth repeating.
>> > I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.
>> > It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.
>> > The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when
>> > spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.
>> > As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful
>> controls will
>> > allways respond to normal spin recovery action.
>> > On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from
>> a spin up
>> > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover
>> from a
>> > well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.
>> > In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to
>> themselves,and
>> > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction
>> from an
>> > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different
>> experience
>> > is not enough!!
>> > Richard
>> > Richard Goode Aerobatics
>> > Rhodds Farm
>> > Lyonshall
>> > Hereford
>> > HR5 3LW
>> > United Kingdom
>> >
>> > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
>> > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
>> > www.russianaeros.com
>> > I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local
>> phone is
>> > +94 779 132 160.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
>> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:45 PM
>> > Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
>> Informal poll
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine
>> about spin
>> > > training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators
>> of Yaks and
>> > > Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude
>> course, how many
>> > > have never done a spin and who spins their bird regularly. I am
>> also
>> > > interested if you know of other owners that have never done
>> spins or are a
>> > > little scared of them - Please no names. I had found much
>> misinformation
>> > > regarding the spin characteristics of my 50 when I was a new
>> owner, mainly
>> > > on the negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found
>> untrue. This
>> > > led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on
>> my plane and
>> > > leads me to believe there are many others who could use a good
>> spin
>> > > training course. All planes spin a little differently but I
>> have found
>> > > the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright, inverted and
>> > > accelerated spins and able to recover within a few degrees of
>> where I want
>> > > to. With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!
>> > > actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary
>> to much
>> > > that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to is
>> that
>> > > there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily
>> qualified to teach
>> > > spins that has negative repercussions to both old and new
>> owners who could
>> > > really use the training.
>> > >
>> > > I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach
>> spins have
>> > > no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a
>> little
>> > > scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for
>> teaching CFI's
>> > > spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and misinformation are
>> passed
>> > > along and perpetuated from one CFI to the next and if there is
>> any
>> > > trepidation at all in that instructor it will be passed
>> immediately to the
>> > > student.
>> > >
>> > > Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone
>> teaching
>> > > yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/
>> upset attitude
>> > > course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a
>> sidebar to
>> > > some of our formation clinics.
>> > >
>> > > If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted
>> maneuvers
>> > > including simple loops and rolls and are not completely
>> confident and
>> > > comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop
>> immediately and find
>> > > a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons. With a 1000
>> hours teaching
>> > > aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop wind up in an
>> unintentional
>> > > inverted spin. No big deal at all if you have seen it before. The
>> > > lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you will have a new
>> mastery and
>> > > confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft, once you
>> learn to
>> > > spin a stall is a no brainer.
>> > >
>> > > The questions are this
>> > >
>> > > 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an
>> aerobatic
>> > > aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
>> > > 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
>> > > 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
>> > > 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
>> > > 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap
>> roll and
>> > > recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery
>> at simulated
>> > > low altitudes?
>> > > 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have
>> heard?
>> > > 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has
>> happened in
>> > > your plane?
>> > > 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your
>> plane( simulating
>> > > inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
>> > > 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or
>> inverted flight
>> > > in their plane?
>> > >
>> > > Thoughts?
>> > >
>> > > -Josh
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Read this topic online here:
>> > >
>> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----------------------------------------------
>> > > This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> > > dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
>> > > and is believed to be clean.
>> > > http://www.invictawiz.com
>> > > -----------------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Download today! Free Windows Live software. Chat, search, share
>> pics and more. <http://get.live.com/>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my neighbors
(CJ6 w/ M14P).- Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs heavier on the nose whe
el then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs).- I have a 500X5 Front tire and n
o spinner, he has a spinner and 600X6 tire.- The rest of the aircraft is
the same exact configuration.- I'm thinking there was a problem with the
scale or the operator (me).- Just curious, can anyone tell me where they
are on their nose wheel weight if you have a CJ6 w/M14P combination.
Thanks in advance..
Larry Pine=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
How much ballast weight in the tail of each aircraft?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Pine
To: Yak-list
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:54 AM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my neighbors
(CJ6 w/ M14P). Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs heavier on the nose wheel
then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs). I have a 500X5 Front tire and no spinner,
he has a spinner and 600X6 tire. The rest of the aircraft is the same exact
configuration. I'm thinking there was a problem with the scale or the operator
(me). Just curious, can anyone tell me where they are on their nose wheel
weight if you have a CJ6 w/M14P combination.
Thanks in advance..
Larry Pine
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
Did You have the acft, leveled fore and aft the same ? =C2-If not the smal
ler nose wheel will move the weight fwd if not leveled the same.. What was t
he difference of the weight on the main Gear? =C2- Gary =C2- =C2-N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon@persona.ca>
Sent: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 9:18 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
How much ballast weight in=C2- the tail of each
aircraft?
=C2-
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From:
Larry Pine
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:54
AM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose
Weight
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my
neighbors (CJ6 w/ M14P).=C2- Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs hea
vier
on the nose wheel then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs).=C2- I have
a
500X5 Front tire and no spinner, he has a spinner and 600X6 tire.
=C2-
The rest of the aircraft is the same exact configuration.=C2- I'm
thinking there was a problem with the scale or the operator (me).
=C2-
Just curious, can anyone tell me where they are on their nose wheel
weight if you have a CJ6 w/M14P combination.
Thanks
in advance..
Larry
Pine
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
It was but I used a ball level.- Maybe I need a digital?
Larry Pine
--- On Thu, 1/8/09, nc69666@aol.com <nc69666@aol.com> wrote:
From: nc69666@aol.com <nc69666@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
Did You have the acft, leveled fore and aft the same ? -If not the smalle
r nose wheel will move the weight fwd if not leveled the same.. What was th
e difference of the weight on the main Gear? - Gary - -N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon@persona.ca>
Sent: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 9:18 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
How much ballast weight in- the tail of each aircraft?
-
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Pine
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:54 AM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my neighbors
(CJ6 w/ M14P).- Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs heavier on the nose whe
el then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs).- I have a 500X5 Front tire and n
o spinner, he has a spinner and 600X6 tire.- The rest of the aircraft is
the same exact configuration.- I'm thinking there was a problem with the
scale or the operator (me).- Just curious, can anyone tell me where they
are on their nose wheel weight if you have a CJ6 w/M14P combination.
Thanks in advance..
Larry Pine
Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations FREE while you browse.S
tart Listening Now!
=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
Appox 20 lbs in the aff tail on both and his had approx 20lbs in smoke tank
(ADF SHELF) but I calculated for that..
Larry Pine
--- On Thu, 1/8/09, Walter Lannon <wlannon@persona.ca> wrote:
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon@persona.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
How much ballast weight in- the tail of each aircraft?
-
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Pine
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:54 AM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my neighbors
(CJ6 w/ M14P).- Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs heavier on the nose whe
el then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs).- I have a 500X5 Front tire and n
o spinner, he has a spinner and 600X6 tire.- The rest of the aircraft is
the same exact configuration.- I'm thinking there was a problem with the
scale or the operator (me).- Just curious, can anyone tell me where they
are on their nose wheel weight if you have a CJ6 w/M14P combination.
Thanks in advance..
Larry Pine
=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
This has been eating at me, so I'm going to share it with you guys:
Andre says:
>You have to AVOID entering a landing stall, not enough room to recover.
If you dont believe it, >get an instructor, go to 10,000 feet, drop gear
and flaps, slow it to 90 kts (landing configuration) >do an overhead
approach not losing more than 400 feet in the turn and then just load the
stick >(you will not believe how fast you will get in a full established
spin).
I'd like to slightly change that wording of "If you don't believe it" to
"if you haven't done it in the last year" go do it. Ask yourself, when
was the last time you even stalled your aircraft, full stall, much less an
accelerated departure or spin...high speed, or more importantly, low
speed. These skills are perishable, guys. You can't rely on your
training from the Navy or your simulator training 10 years ago.
As a general rule, I think our level of proficiency in these
"non-standard" areas leaves something to be desired. I think too many
BFR's are either P-51'd or not nearly thorough enough. I've seen both.
It would be interesting to take a survey and find out just exactly what
the level of recurrent training is in our group, and my guess is an
*honest* survey would raise some eyebrows.
I also think we need to evaluate how we police the community. I think
many of us observe others doing things in a way that is worrisome yet
nothing is ever said for fear of offending in some way. The consequences
are sometimes tragic. If we are truly "comrades" this need not be the
case.
I hope we all take the opportunity to evaluate ourselves and our
proficiency,encourage others to do the same when the situation calls for
it, and learn departure recovery techniques and stay current!
Regards,
Barry
--
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
office (909) 606-4444
cell (949) 300-5510
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Altimeter (feet) |
I'm in the UK. Does anyone have a serviceable altimeter they no longer
require I can get my hands on?
My '52 back seat one has just gone tech, and aircraft is in for permit
renewal soon so it needs to be fixed.
Needs to be one in feet, not metres!!!!
Nigel Willson
http://yakdisplay.com
nigel@yakdisplay.com
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I am always in favor of training, training and more training. However,
there are spins and then there are spins, there are airplanes that will
recover from spins in one condition but will NOT recover in another
condition, instructors who know their stuff and those who don't but may
think they do. Also, aerobatics training is not the same as training for
stall and spin avoidance. Every airplane is different, loading and CG are
critical, so is recovery technique.
The best anti-spin technique is simply to keep the ball in the cage while
avoiding critical angle of attack. But there is no way to recover from an
accelerated stall and spin from two or three hundred feet regardless of your
training. Go try it at altitude and see for yourself. And I'm talking
spins of the half-turn incipient variety. Most airplanes give absolutely NO
indication they are about to break into an accelerated stall. Emergency
maneuvering is not the same as emergency avoidance.
I know lots of you folks are highly skilled, highly experienced pilots.
Many are not. Balls-out, hair on fire is not a piloting technique, it is an
attitude. I'm just saying that when you get that training (which I highly
recommend), be sure you get proper, thorough instruction from someone who
knows from up and DON'T think that what you learned in that Decathlon will
automatically transfer to every other airplane, in every loading condition,
every other day. Yaks and CJ's ain't Decathlons. -50's ain't -52's. Spin
training, yes. Spin avoidance double yes.
There's good reason to be afraid of spins. They are dangerous and must be
approached with great care and caution. Leave the test flying to those
getting paid for it.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
JP@FlyWBa.com
www.FlyWBA.com
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
Larry,
My nose weight was 572lbs on my M14P CJ6A Yak/Chang. Not sure it matters
Are they really the same exact configuration? Could Buddy's have more
weight in the back than yours? Some questions...
Are the distances from the nose wheel to the main wheel the same on both
aircraft? What was the distance?
What was the total weight of your CJ vs total weight of Buddy's?
Were the two CJs leveled the same way?
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Pine
To: Yak-list
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:54 AM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ6A/P Nose Weight
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my
neighbors (CJ6 w/ M14P). Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs heavier on
the nose wheel then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs). I have a 500X5
Front tire and no spinner, he has a spinner and 600X6 tire. The rest of
the aircraft is the same exact configuration. I'm thinking there was a
problem with the scale or the operator (me). Just curious, can anyone
tell me where they are on their nose wheel weight if you have a CJ6
w/M14P combination.
Thanks in advance..
Larry Pine
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/07/09 |
Gentleman,
I would like to make some observations with respect to the spinning process.
I would qualify my statement by saying that I am probably a very low our
piloting comparison with most of the people on this website.
I was so irritated/disgusted with the limitations of my general aviation
training that are actively sought out as much bad attitude/upset training as
I could and eventually wound up doing my advanced spinning and aerobatic
recovery course in the United States in a Pitts S2C in a very reputable
school remain unnamed. It spoilt me for life, partly because the Pitts is
such a wonderful aeroplane but mostly because the exercise of learning how
to control the entry into the spins, upright and inverted accelerated etc as
well as the exit from these manoeuvres on my own bodily sensations gave such
command over the aeroplane in flight. I have now moved on to a Yak 18T,
which is a much less selfish aeroplane and far more practical for where I
live. Its capacities as an aerobatic aircraft will greatly exceed mine is a
pilot probably too many years to come. I have now completed my advanced
spinning and aerobatic training in this aircraft and have approximately 100
hours on type. I even now have my own aerobatic box at our local airport in
controlled airspace, a fact for which I am extremely grateful. I have
colleagues who have done some spin Training, who avoid doing practice,
believing that they will be capable of fixing the problem if and when it
arrives.
I would like to echo the comments made by other authors on this website that
is not the intentional spin that is entered into the history books as
killing pilots it is rather the unexpected. It is however only unexpected
if you don't know what you're doing. I find it difficult to understand why
anyone would ever voluntarily use inverted or cross spin inputs on final, so
the implication is that these are not understood by the pilots who use them.
The most wicked spins that I have experienced have been those when I attempt
to correct mistakes on the vertical. These are particularly nasty in the
Pitts but once again having experienced them with good instructors, they to
become easily tamed. I given a piece of advice when I started to fly by a
World War II hurricane pilot. He said that I should spend as much time in
bars and Aero club's (perhaps they are the same thing) listening to the
discussions about the problems that have a curved as I was unlikely to live
long enough to make all of the mistakes about which I would hear. Perhaps
our discussion on the e-mail is in much the same vein. I have learned much
from listening to this website. I have the most from three extraordinary
and capable instructors who could make the aeroplane stamps in the sky. I
have learnt much from the discussion. What I have learnt most is that I
need continual practice of the right kind. My engine failure on takeoff
followed by incipient spin was only corrected by my aerobatic training and
I'm alive today because of these gentlemen.
I would suggest that we all have a vested interest in survival and flying
our wonderful machines. So practice, practice and practice some more.
Cheers SG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak-List Digest
Server
Sent: Thursday, 8 January 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/07/09
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
09-01-07&Archive=Yak
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2009-01-07&Archive=Yak
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Yak-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Wed 01/07/09: 11
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:33 AM - Spins (Jerry Painter)
2. 01:31 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/06/09 (SRGraham)
3. 02:42 PM - Re: Spins (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E)
4. 02:59 PM - Re: Spins (keithmckinley)
5. 03:21 PM - Re: Spins (Herb Coussons)
6. 04:47 PM - Re: Spins (Dr Andre Katz)
7. 05:57 PM - Re: Spins (Yak Pilot)
8. 07:08 PM - OFF TOPIC - Cell phones for soldiers (KingCJ6@aol.com)
9. 07:54 PM - Re: Spins (Richard Goode)
10. 09:47 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Andrew Love)
11. 11:09 PM - All Red Star Date Change (num1pilot@aol.com)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 11:33:31 AM PST US
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Spins
Gents--
Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and thoroughly
flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but I'm unaware of
any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or Nanchangs regarding
fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were required to demonstrate
some sort of spin recovery capability and documented demonstrated recovery
techniques, something at least equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic
airplane certification (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
Anecdotes ain't documentation.
Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation spins in
a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in Gene Beggs'
or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning Yaks
or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to hold in a spin
but put a little weight in the tail and its a different matter. We all
know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin accidents. Too many highly
skilled, highly experienced pilots have been killed in lots of different
airplanes that were supposed to be safe to spin. Art Scholl--who was famous
for his airshow 27-turn inverted flat spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman Yankees you
have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think the
airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had intended)
Engineers get it wrong, too.
The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way back,
stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed controls base
to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not stalling at low
altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and especially--though I hate
to say it--piss poor piloting technique. It's not the entry, it's not the
recovery, its awareness and avoidance that must be learned and exercised.
That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage, the
bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to do
that?
Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper instruction
and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great: De Le vigilance,
encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
www.FlyWBA.com
JP@FlyWBA.com
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 01:31:38 PM PST US
From: "SRGraham" <sgyak18t@bigpond.com>
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Yak-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/06/09
Hi matt, I have managed to forget my past word and access details. Could
you please read e-mail these to me. Have just completed my advanced
aerobatic course in my 18, and have a few comments to make.
Cheers Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak-List Digest
Server
Sent: Wednesday, 7 January 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Yak-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 01/06/09
*
================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
================================================
Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
09-01-06&Archive=Yak
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2009-01-06&Archive=Yak
==============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
==============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Yak-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Tue 01/06/09: 9
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:18 AM - Re: Texas crash (Ira Saligman)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Craig Winkelmann)
3. 05:32 AM - Forrest's crash (Russ)
4. 07:58 AM - Re: Texas crash (N642K)
5. 08:00 AM - Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson
(N642K)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(GreasySideUp)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Craig Winkelmann)
8. 10:25 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(GreasySideUp)
9. 04:54 PM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
(Craig Winkelmann)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:18:18 AM PST US
From: "Ira Saligman" <isaligman@saligman.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Texas crash
Please send an address for any notes or contributions in their memory.
Ira
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 05:30:02 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r@gmail.com>
Josh:
To address spins for the entire community, you need to address spins in the
CJ
- which really doesn't like to spin. However, when spinning the CJ, you can
enter
a steep spiral quite easily which has its own set of problems if not
recognized
early. I have also read that someone managed to get a CJ into a flat spin
with much altitude needed for recovery. Gabby is probably the best person
to discuss spin characteristics of the CJ.
I am surprised to hear that the 50 has been given a bad rap in the past. As
a
competition aerobatic plane, I would suspect it would be quite predictable.
I do my CFI stuff in CAP flying 182s and 172s and as such don't get the
opportunity
to teach or do much in the way of spinning. Most of the effort is to teach
recognition of stalls or situations you can stall/spin. I've recently begun
to add in a discussion on the shortcomings of having the stall warning
device
on only the left wing.
I think the community would be well served by a separate article in Red
Alert on
the spin characteristics of each of our primary aircraft: 50, 52, 55, CJ.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223115#223115
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:32:36 AM PST US
From: "Russ" <duncan1574@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Forrest's crash
http://cbs11tv.com/local/justin.plane.crash.2.900119.html
Russ
I am a Marxist--of the Groucho tendency. - Anonymous
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:58:05 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Texas crash
From: "N642K" <mdecanio@mac.com>
I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning.
She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She
said
flowers would be nice.
Notes may be sent directly to her house.
Martha Johnson
7520 Hewitt
North Richland Hills, TX 76180
Flowers should be sent to
St Luke United Methodist Church
3200 Denton Highway
Haltom City, TX
Forrest D. Johnson
1939 - 2009
Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009.
Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment:
Bluebonnet
Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday
at St. Luke United Methodist Church.
Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and
graduated
from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He
owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member
of
Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional
Airport,
where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also
a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church
in
Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight
pilot,
flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a
sixth-generation
Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony
in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was
an
avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting.
Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife,
Kathy,
of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington;
sisters,
Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington;
grandchildren,
Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many
nieces and nephews.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223130#223130
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 08:00:14 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Flowers, Notes, Donation and Obituary for Forrest Johnson
From: "N642K" <mdecanio@mac.com>
I've spoke with Martha Johnson this morning.
She'll consult with her minister today about charitable contributions. She
said
flowers would be nice.
Notes may be sent directly to her house.
Martha Johnson
7520 Hewitt
North Richland Hills, TX 76180
Flowers should be sent to
St Luke United Methodist Church
3200 Denton Highway
Haltom City, TX
Forrest D. Johnson
1939 - 2009
Forrest D. Johnson, 69, passed away Saturday, Jan. 3, 2009.
Funeral: 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at St. Luke United Methodist Church. Interment:
Bluebonnet
Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville. Visitation: 1 to 2 p.m. Wednesday
at St. Luke United Methodist Church.
Forrest was born Sept. 28, 1939, in Houston. He was raised in Mansfield and
graduated
from Mansfield High in 1957. He had resided in Fort Worth since 1961. He
owned and operated Metro/Quip Inc. from 1973 to 2006. Forrest was a member
of
Red Star Aeronautical Association. He had a hangar at Northwest Regional
Airport,
where he was president of the property owners' association. He was also
a member of V-8 Ford Antique Car Club and St. Luke United Methodist Church
in
Haltom City, where he chaired many committees. Forrest was an Angel Flight
pilot,
flying many people for medical treatment around Texas. He was a
sixth-generation
Texan, his family dating back to the original Stephen F. Austin Colony
in Brazoria County. He enjoyed his second home in Port Aransas, where he was
an
avid deep-sea fisherman. He also enjoyed West Texas quail hunting.
Survivors: Wife of 48 years, Martha Johnson; son, Ken Johnson and wife,
Kathy,
of Aspen, Colo.; daughter, Cynthia Ellis and husband, Tim, of Arlington;
sisters,
Marjorie Edwards of Comanche, Okla., and Karen Kennedy of Arlington;
grandchildren,
Audrey Ellis, Colin Ellis, Parker Johnson and Paige Johnson; and many
nieces and nephews.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223131#223131
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:06:43 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
Guys, this is great stuff!! Thank you for all the emails. I am going to
gather
data for a little while longer and try and post results but already there is
a common trend emerging. Those that have had spin and upset attitude
training
in any aircraft are very comfortable in their own planes but most all of you
know someone who is flying aerobatics that has a fear of spins. Regardless
of
the characteristics between the Yaks and CJ airframes, a 1 turn vs. 3 turn
vs.
inverted flat, it looks as though some more education and training may be in
order.
I got into a spin as a very young student pilot many years ago - during a
stall
a wing dropped, I put in full opposite aileron and off we went. It was
followed
by screaming from my instructor on how I nearly killed us with no
explanation
on why it happened. I carried that fear of stalls for the next 300 hours,
tensing up on every check ride and never practicing on my solos for fear of
killing
myself. Finally I took an upset attitude course that changed everything.
After a few falling leafs and spins that fear was instantly over. A stall
was suddenly no big deal. What I learned is that my instructor had very
limited
knowledge of stalls and post departure flight and that fear was undoubtedly
passed on not only me but all of his students.
I fell in love with aerobatics, got involved with competition and eventually
teaching
and over the years I found 2 things repeated by almost all my students.
Even after an hour briefing, the vast majority, when a wing drops during a
stall,
will throw opposite aileron. When put in an inverted position (ie wake
turbulence)
they will try to pull out no matter what the altitude. Everything
we learn in flying tells us to do these two things and without instruction
can
not be be un-learned by reading alone. It doesn't take a mastery of fully
developed
advanced spins (ie accelerated flat) to be safe doing aerobatics - but
rather to have a full understanding of how to get into and out of a regular
spin
and more importantly recognize the pre-spin departure circumstances and
recover
before the spin develops. A developed cross controlled spin simulating
an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can
easily
be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss. I have seen more
than
one hammerhead enter an inverted spin, but if you recognize the plane is
about
to go it is easily avoidable and the gravity will do all the work for you.
An inadvertent inverted spin by doing acro with no training however can be a
recipe for disaster.
I can say this for sure, if you have trepidation at all regarding any type
of stall
it will be cured with a good spin training course. If you are not
comfortable
with spins, aerobatics and ACM should not be performed under any
circumstances.
Keep the discussion going!!
Josh
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223132#223132
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 09:43:51 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r@gmail.com>
Josh:
> A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye
watering
but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered
without
any altitude loss.
I'll challenge you on this. A fully developed spin has gone past the
incipient
stage and you have already lost altitude.
The cross-controlled stall is exciting as the wing opposite the direction of
turn
(the higher wing) drops and rolls the plane quite abruptly. I've only done
a few, but they do get your attention.
Also, tossing in opposite aileron in an incipient spin produces adverse yaw
which
just makes the situation worse.
Rich Stowell in his excellent book on stalls and spins gives the PARE
technique
a blessing:
P - power to idle
A - Ailerons NEUTRAL
R - Full opposite rudder to stop rotation
E - Elevator forward to break the stall (reduce the AOA)
This is of course for upright stalls.
If you've ever watched a video of a test pilot in a flat spin talking thru
control
inputs that have no effect and then putting his hand up in the air while the
plane continues to spin (attempt at the old "just let go technique") it is
sobering. The pilot I watched got out only thru deployment of a spin chute.
This was in a Gruman Tiger I think. Certainly not a plane certificated for
doing
this and after watching the video, there is a good reason why!!
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223144#223144
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 10:25:28 AM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
Absolutely correct Craig, I misspoke. A developed spin will most definitely
incur
an altitude loss, I meant to say if you recognize it at its incipient phase
you can recover before the spin develops. The difficulty with these spins
is
that there is very little warning and if you have not seen it before it will
be difficult to recognize. There is often never enough altitude to recover
from
a spin in the pattern so it is paramount to know what the signs are to break
that chain of events. The nose low, high side, cross controlled spins in
particular
are sobering to most with just how quickly they snap around. With an
immediate recovery after departure it still leaves you in an extremely nose
low attitude and at base altitudes are generally not recoverable. If
however
you have seen it before, as with all types of spins, it is easy to recognize
and
the real recovery happens before the aircraft ever departs.
I've found a rough Wag in most "aerobatic" aircraft is about 300-500 feet
per rotation
and another 500 to recover. Variations occur with more advanced spins,
less advanced aircraft (ie the AT-6) or super expensive aircraft (a-la the
F-16)
but that is a story over a cold beer sometime....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223154#223154
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 04:54:59 PM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
From: "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r@gmail.com>
Josh:
I misspoke too (typing fast at work!)...the PARE technique is for recovery
from
a developed upright SPIN not an upright STALL.
Here is the F-22 in a stall.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR1HNDwxwpw
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223247#223247
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 02:42:23 PM PST US
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spins
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you recommend
spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning out of
what you have written, please correct me.
If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a number
of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to think
about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have received
spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on doing
said aerobatics in.
I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That risk
starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a spin
in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs, and to
be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
slinging intended.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
Subject: Yak-List: Spins
Gents--
Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
(which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
Anecdotes ain't documentation.
Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation spins
in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in Gene
Beggs'
or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to hold
in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have been
killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted flat
spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman Yankees
you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
intended)
Engineers get it wrong, too.
The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique. It's
not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
must be learned and exercised.
That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to do
that?
Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
www.FlyWBA.com
JP@FlyWBA.com
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 02:59:33 PM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spins
From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
Jerry that was WELL SAID
I stopped counting my flight time somewhere north of 10,000 hours, did test
flights
in the AV8B, and had more wild departures that you can imagine. Have spun
every airplane I ever flew (except the AV8) and some of them inverted.
I HATE SPINS
I've done them in my CJ, know how to get into one, and out of one and that's
enough
for me. Love doing every acro maneuver within the planes capability but
don't
care for spins.
I don't do spins for the same reason I don't bottom out my loops below
2000-2500
feet. NO good reason to.
Call me a wuss
--------
Keith McKinley
700 HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223435#223435
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 03:21:30 PM PST US
From: Herb Coussons <drc@wscare.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
I agree with Mark.
I know what Jerry's point is - and I would not jump on him though.
I think he is correct that a guy who does not have adequate training,
reliable data from the manufacture, or a modified plane is becoming a
test pilot.
I do not have good data and info on the Yak 52TW. I have talked to
the Romanians at OSH and they cannot supply flight testing info that
would be of any use. Also when we moved the oil cooler and modified
the leading edge of the airplane, I went up high and became a test
pilot. We had 3 different openings and a variety of fences for the
opening to the oil cooler and I went out and stalled/spun the plane
from numerous attitudes and configurations to collect the info for the
mod. We tufted the right wing to look at airflow around the opening.
So yes my experience with a newly manufactured and modified plane
confirms Jerry's conclusion that we become test pilots.
On the other hand the Yak 55 -
Good information from Russia, translated into English. An airframe
designed to compete in aerobatics with stall spin a required figure
(not to be avoided). I would say that is more what Mark is
describing. Yet it is a single place - you can talk about stall spin
on the ground all you want and read about it in the manual, but at
some point you just have to go do it. You have to take flying
experience from other planes, and people's advice and go out by
yourself and learn what the plane does. But with good information.
Herb
On Jan 7, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you
> recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning
> out of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a
> number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to
> think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have
> received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on
> doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That
> risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a
> spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs,
> and to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
> Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
> <wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation
> spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in
> Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to
> hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have
> been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted
> flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman
> Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique.
> It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want
> to do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 04:47:57 PM PST US
From: Dr Andre Katz <bu131@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
we can beat this subject to death =0Abut a few words to the wise=0AI lost a
few friends in the T-6 world- with similar situations=0Aafter 25 years a
nd many scars in my back I developed a few safe rules=0AI happen to be- n
umber 2 behind- a good friend of mine whom I had to extract from the grou
nd and hate to see this recurring.=0A=0Aoverhead approaches =0Aat 90 degree
s of bank if you load the stick (because you are pushed away due to quarter
ly winds) or mismanaged the turn (turning too late)=0Ain a T-6 there is not
enough power to recover similar in a yak and other airplanes you need 300
+ miles/hr to stay flying=0Atherefore break always high over the field, do
not extend the turn, always keep the ball in the center, its a COORDINATED
TURN=0Across control will kill you. =0AYou can have 1000 hrs of spin traini
ng and there is not a soul in the world that will save you from-braking
-your neck. You have to AVOID entering a =0Alanding stall, not enough roo
m to recover. =0A=0AIf you dont believe it, get an instructor, go to 10,000
feet, drop gear and flaps, slow it to 90 kts (landing configuration) do an
overhead approach =0Anot losing more than 400 feet in the turn and then ju
st load the stick (you will not believe how fast you will get in a full est
ablished spin)...=0A=0Aspin recovery (thanks to Nikolai for the instruction
) is absolutely needed. Any hammerhead maneuver at the top with cross contr
ol not only will get you=0Ainto a spin but possible into an inverted spin w
hich in the yaks and sukhois with their gyroscopic effects are not natural
to recover. There is the jesus =0Amaneuver to learn etc to be able to manag
e such attitudes. But unless you do aerobatic and simple formation flight p
lease be original and try a different=0Away to go. =0A=0Afly safe=0Amy thou
ghts to the flush and GIB family=0A=0Aak
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 05:57:52 PM PST US
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
My 2 cents yet again.- =0A=0AIn order to fully recognize when a spin is g
etting ready to happen... you have to be in the airplane a few times when i
t actually does happen.-- Period.- Of course you want to avoid a spin
in the pattern, but to avoid crossed controls and to "always keep the ball
in the middle?"- What happened to the "slip to landing" practice we all
had as private pilots?- =0A=0AWhile doing- Hammerheads it is quite comm
on to use crossed controls.- For example, .. full right rudder with just
a tad of left aileron ... because the left wing is swinging faster with a h
ammer to the right,- -it develops a tad more lift, thus a little left a
ileron is required to keep the maneuver clean without rotation of the fusel
age.- The trick is to keep it on the exact vertical line while doing this
.- When your vertical line is off, and you end up say... pushing forward
on the stick, with outboard aileron and full right rudder... you can go rig
ht into an inverted spin.- The answer is not to avoid cross controls but
to develop a good vertical line.- =0A=0AThe bottom line is that there are
many MANY ways to fly an airplane without crashing the darn thing.- More
important than anything else is attitude.- Anyone that gets at least som
ewhat serious about aerobatics knows that the first thing to achieve is not
to be afraid of the airplane.- In order to accomplish this one needs to
be convinced that he or she can recover from anything unexpected.- This t
akes training and practice and not avoidance.- =0A=0AThe question is shou
ld anyone be doing 90 degree high G Sectional breaks into the pattern multi
-ship with none of the above teaching or practice at all?- Others may dis
agree.. but I say "no".- Of course I could be wrong.- =0A=0AMark Bitter
lich=0AN50YK=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: D
r Andre Katz <bu131@swbell.net>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednes
day, January 7, 2009 7:46:41 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Spins=0A=0A=0Awe c
an beat this subject to death =0Abut a few words to the wise=0AI lost a few
friends in the T-6 world- with similar situations=0Aafter 25 years and m
any scars in my back I developed a few safe rules=0AI happen to be- numbe
r 2 behind- a good friend of mine whom I had to extract from the ground a
nd hate to see this recurring.=0A=0Aoverhead approaches =0Aat 90 degrees of
bank if you load the stick (because you are pushed away due to quarterly w
inds) or mismanaged the turn (turning too late)=0Ain a T-6 there is not eno
ugh power to recover similar in a yak and other airplanes you need 300 + mi
les/hr to stay flying=0Atherefore break always high over the field, do not
extend the turn, always keep the ball in the center, its a COORDINATED TURN
=0Across control will kill you. =0AYou can have 1000 hrs of spin training a
nd there is not a soul in the world that will save you from-braking -yo
ur neck. You have to AVOID entering a =0Alanding stall, not enough room to
recover. =0A=0AIf you dont believe it, get an instructor, go to 10,000 feet
, drop gear and flaps, slow it to 90 kts (landing configuration) do an over
head approach =0Anot losing more than 400 feet in the turn and then just lo
ad the stick (you will not believe how fast you will get in a full establis
hed spin)...=0A=0Aspin recovery (thanks to Nikolai for the instruction) is
absolutely needed. Any hammerhead maneuver at the top with cross control no
t only will get you=0Ainto a spin but possible into an inverted spin which
in the yaks and sukhois with their gyroscopic effects are not natural to re
cover. There is the jesus =0Amaneuver to learn etc to be able to manage suc
h attitudes. But unless you do aerobatic and simple formation flight please
be original and try a different=0Away to go. =0A=0Afly safe=0Amy thoughts
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
==============
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 07:08:13 PM PST US
From: KingCJ6@aol.com
Subject: Yak-List: OFF TOPIC - Cell phones for soldiers
Here's a great opportunity to provide those who serve us a way to call
home.
For the most part, their calls home are at their expense. This program
donates a 60 minute phone card for each used cell phone turned/sent in.
Most
of
us probably have a few obsolete units laying around. You can mail them in
(free postage labels provided) or drop them at a local ATT site.
Dave
Program info: _http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/_
(http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/)
Drop off points: _http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/locateDropoff.asp_
(http://www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com/locateDropoff.asp)
**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 07:54:12 PM PST US
From: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
Following a fatal spinning accident in a 52-flown by a highly experienced
pilot [one of the top handful of aerobatic pilots at a World Championship
level]BUT NO EXPERIENCE in the 52,I did a lot of research into this issue.
I found SEVEN different flight manuals for the 52 and ONLY ONE went into any
detail of the potential problems of recovery from developed spins!
This is because the Russians and others were being taught in a military
system where spin training was done in the aircraft with a really competent
pilot.[Also,in passing,where no pilot was allowed to fly aerobatics weighing
more than 100 kgs-220 lbs,total with clothes,parachute etc.!!]
Richard G.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spins
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning out of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs, and to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique. It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.invictawiz.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 09:47:36 PM PST US
From: Andrew Love <torque_roll@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the '52
=2C but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the '55 s
eries=2C what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright through
to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may be similar to
the '50? Curious to know.
Andrew Love
Contract Pilot
NZCPL (A)Queenstown
New Zealand
P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I M +64 21
818 816> From: richard.goode@russianaeros.com> To: yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal pol
l> Date: Tue=2C 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530> > --> Yak-List message posted by
: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>> > This is something abo
ut which I have posted several times before=2Cbut if it > saves lives it mu
st be worth repeating.> I have no experience with the CJ family=2Cso write
only about Yaks.> It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.> Th
e 50 is much lighter=2Cand with a much lower moment of inertia when > spinn
ing=2Cyet with the same size control surfaces.> As such the 50 is predictab
le in the spin=2Cand with powerful controls will > allways respond to norma
l spin recovery action.> On the other hand=2Cwhile the 52 will usually reco
ver quickly from a spin up > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more di
fficult to recover from a > well-developed spin=2Cparticularly if it has go
ne flat.> In my view=2CANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52=2C owes it to the
mselves=2Cand > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruc
tion from an > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with differ
ent experience > is not enough!!> Richard> Richard Goode Aerobatics> Rhodds
Farm> Lyonshall> Hereford> HR5 3LW> United Kingdom> > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 34
0120> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129> www.russianaeros.com> I'm currently in Sri
Lanka but this Mail is working=2Cand my local phone is > +94 779 132 160.>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hot
mail.com>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>> Sent: Monday=2C January 05=2C 2009
9:45 PM> Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Inform
@hotmail.com>> >> > I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA m
agazine about spin > > training and was wondering the percentage of owners/
operators of Yaks and > > Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset
attitude course=2C how many > > have never done a spin and who spins their
bird regularly. I am also > > interested if you know of other owners that h
ave never done spins or are a > > little scared of them - Please no names.
I had found much misinformation > > regarding the spin characteristics of m
y 50 when I was a new owner=2C mainly > > on the negative/caution/scary sid
e that I have simply found untrue. This > > led me to an overcautious appro
ach to finding the envelope on my plane and > > leads me to believe there a
re many others who could use a good spin > > training course. All planes sp
in a little differently but I have found > > the 50 to be extremely predict
able in both upright=2C inverted and > > accelerated spins and able to reco
ver within a few degrees of where I want > > to. With hundreds of spins=2C
it has done ex!> > actly what I wanted it to every single time which was co
ntrary to much > > that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've com
e to is that > > there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily qu
alified to teach > > spins that has negative repercussions to both old and
new owners who could > > really use the training.> >> > I'll add that many
CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins have > > no idea what is h
appening in a spin aerodynamically and are a little > > scared of them them
selves. There is no formal couse for teaching CFI's > > spins. This is unfo
rtunate as bad habits and misinformation are passed > > along and perpetuat
ed from one CFI to the next and if there is any > > trepidation at all in t
hat instructor it will be passed immediately to the > > student.> >> > Plea
se give me your thoughts=2C as I absolutely do not condone teaching > > you
rself from books=2C I am under the impression that a spin/upset attitude >
> course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a sidebar to
> > some of our formation clinics.> >> > If you are doing any aerobatics or
"Extended trail" inverted maneuvers > > including simple loops and rolls a
nd are not completely confident and > > comfortable doing spins I would enc
ourage you to stop immediately and find > > a qualified spin instructor for
a few lessons. With a 1000 hours teaching > > aerobatics I have seen more
than 1 loop wind up in an unintentional > > inverted spin. No big deal at a
ll if you have seen it before. The > > lessons will be extremely enjoyable
and you will have a new mastery and > > confidence in your flying abilities
and your aircraft=2C once you learn to > > spin a stall is a no brainer.>
>> > The questions are this> >> > 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attit
ude course in an aerobatic > > aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?> > 2. Have y
ou done a Spin in your plane?> > 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your
plane?> > 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?> > 5. H
ave you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll and > > reco
very from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at simulated > >
low altitudes?> > 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you ha
ve heard?> > 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has ha
ppened in > > your plane?> > 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery
in your plane( simulating > > inverted wake turbulence recovery at low alt
itudes)> > 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls=2C spins or inve
rted flight > > in their plane?> >> > Thoughts?> >> > -Josh> >> >> >> >> >
Read this topic online here:> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.ph
p?p=222965#222965> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------------
----------------------------> > This message has been scanned for viruses a
nd> > dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner> > and is believed to
be clean.> > http://www.invictawiz.com> > --------------------------------
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Free Windows Live software. Chat=2C search=2C share pics and more
http://get.live.com/
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 11:09:50 PM PST US
Subject: Yak-List: All Red Star Date Change
From: num1pilot@aol.com
The date of the 2009 All Red Star Fly-In has been changed.? The new date is
the
first weekend of May.? Please mark your calendars, the ARS Staff looks
forward
to seeing you there!? Expect registration to begin the first week of
February.
2009 ALL RED STAR
April 30-May 3 2009
?????? Thursday April 30th in the afternoon?- FAST GROUND SCHOOL
?????? Friday - Sunday - FLYING!!!
Blue Skies,
-Postal
?
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I concur with everything Herb has said here, and Jerry as well
(regarding "becoming a test pilot" in certain circumstances). What Herb
said about the 55 applies just as well to the 50. The 50 was designed
to be an aerobatic competitor from day one. Regarding the 52, I'll let
owners of the aircraft thrash that question around. I do not own one,
nor have I flown one, but I have watched Sergei Boriak teach guys here
in New Bern to TUMBLE that aircraft time after time, and I kind of think
that if the aircraft can tumble, that it is probably safe for spins
given the correct instruction and the proper precautions, (as mentioned
by Richard Goode more than once).
One addition: When I first spun my 50... I did it by myself, starting
way way up high. The thing acted a little strange. The details of which
are not worth mentioning... .but it was kind of like the airplane was
talking to me and saying: "Something here is just not quite right". A
feeling more than a known issue... The plane just departed much faster
and with a suddenness that I had never felt before in another airplane.
Later I spun it under the supervision of Sergei Boriak watching from the
ground. That guy is so good it is like having him in the backseat of an
airplane that only has one seat. He could see every little nuance of
what was going on and was coaching me with stick inputs going in and
coming out of the spin. Just an amazing guy.
ANYWAY....
Here is the primary reason I am writing this posting. I never did a
weight and balance on my aircraft myself. I used the previous data from
the previous owner. I guess I would have to admit that this was a
mistake... A bad one. During my second or third year of ownership on my
50, I modified the tailwheel locking adjustments so that you had to push
the stick ALL THE WAY FORWARD to unlock the tailwheel. This keeps the
tailwheel from unlocking during normal flight and then going into a bad
shimmy when landing. If your 50 does this, send me a private email.
ANYWAY... When I took everything apart in the tail, I found a 20 pound
lead weight neatly installed back there. WTFO !!!! No wonder my 50
would do a snap roll so much better than any other 50 I had ever flown.
It also explained the weird spin feelings I had with this aircraft. The
logs did not show any such modification. I have no idea who put it in.
Obviously it is gone now.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Coussons
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
I agree with Mark.
I know what Jerry's point is - and I would not jump on him though.
I think he is correct that a guy who does not have adequate training,
reliable data from the manufacture, or a modified plane is becoming a
test pilot.
I do not have good data and info on the Yak 52TW. I have talked to the
Romanians at OSH and they cannot supply flight testing info that would
be of any use. Also when we moved the oil cooler and modified the
leading edge of the airplane, I went up high and became a test pilot.
We had 3 different openings and a variety of fences for the opening to
the oil cooler and I went out and stalled/spun the plane from numerous
attitudes and configurations to collect the info for the
mod. We tufted the right wing to look at airflow around the opening.
So yes my experience with a newly manufactured and modified plane
confirms Jerry's conclusion that we become test pilots.
On the other hand the Yak 55 -
Good information from Russia, translated into English. An airframe
designed to compete in aerobatics with stall spin a required figure (not
to be avoided). I would say that is more what Mark is describing. Yet
it is a single place - you can talk about stall spin on the ground all
you want and read about it in the manual, but at some point you just
have to go do it. You have to take flying experience from other planes,
and people's advice and go out by yourself and learn what the plane
does. But with good information.
Herb
On Jan 7, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you
> recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning
> out of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a
> number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to
> think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have
> received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on
> doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That
> risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a
> spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs,
> and to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
> Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
> <wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation
> spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in
> Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to
> hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have
> been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted
> flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman
> Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique.
> It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want
> to do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Do you spin the 52 Richard?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
--> <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Following a fatal spinning accident in a 52-flown by a highly
experienced pilot [one of the top handful of aerobatic pilots at a World
Championship level]BUT NO EXPERIENCE in the 52,I did a lot of research
into this issue.
I found SEVEN different flight manuals for the 52 and ONLY ONE went into
any detail of the potential problems of recovery from developed spins!
This is because the Russians and others were being taught in a military
system where spin training was done in the aircraft with a really
competent pilot.[Also,in passing,where no pilot was allowed to fly
aerobatics weighing more than 100 kgs-220 lbs,total with
clothes,parachute etc.!!] Richard G.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone
is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spins
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you
recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning out
of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a
number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to
think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have
received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on
doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That
risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a
spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs, and
to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
<wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation
spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in
Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to
hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have
been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted
flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman
Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique.
It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to
do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.invictawiz.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
The 50 has an asymmetrical low-wing, basically a Clark style airfoil.
The 55 has a symmetrical mid-wing. The aerobatic performance of the 55
has been noted to be somewhat of a "Poor Man's Sukhoi". These are two
totally different aircraft, with the 55 being more likened to the Sukhoi
26 than say the YAK-50. I think Richard Goode has flown all three. I
have flown a 50 and a 55, and the 50 has much better low speed
performance. I did not spin the 55, so this is not really an answer to
your question, but just a simple observation.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Love
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 12:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal
poll
The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the
'52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the
'55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright
through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may be
similar to the '50? Curious to know.
Andrew Love
Contract Pilot
NZCPL (A)
Queenstown
New Zealand
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Well... I hope I don't lose a friend here. Big Sigh. Seriously... No
personal offense implied or intended in this message.
Jerry, I know in my heart that your point of view here is shared by a
lot of people. That said, I could indeed be the one that is totally out
of line and completely wrong. I want to say that first and get it
understood, because this is not a case of me saying that: "YOU ARE WRONG
AND I AM RIGHT". Far from it.
That said; Here are the things I have questions on: "The best anti-spin
technique is simply to keep the ball in the cage while avoiding critical
angle of attack."
1. Ok, Got it... but when I hop into a J-3 Cub and on a straight in to
final..... jam in full (right or left rudder) and opposite stick to slip
the aircraft down to the correct place to be on the glide path ... Is
that something that I am no longer allowed to do? Because hey....if I
do not manage the angle of attack correctly, it is clearly a set-up for
a stall // spin entry in the landing pattern. True?
Next: "Also, aerobatics training is not the same as training for stall
and spin avoidance." Ok...That could be very true. In the stall and
spin avoidance training, it is possible that you will never do one real
spin. My experience has been that this kind of training takes the
person right up to the spin entry, and if you go just a LITTLE BIT TOO
FAR, the instructor goes berserk, takes control of the aircraft and
makes immediate corrective control entry to avoid that spin at all
costs. Maybe your description of this kind of training is way
different... I hope so... But that is how mine was given.
On the other hand, my "Aerobatic Training" started by actually entering
spins ON PURPOSE. This was a real revelation. As in: "Do you mean
people actually get into a spin on purpose and that they JUDGE YOU on
how well you do it?" Amazing! Then I was exposed to the accelerated
spin entry. A form of accelerated spin entry had an actual name, it was
called "a snap roll". By the way, something no military pilot was ever
really taught from my experience. I guess that's because jet aircraft
just don't do snap rolls all that well (big grin!) I was again amazed
that I would actually be judged on not only how to get into one of these
things, but also on how well I got out of them... On course and without
losing too much in the way of altitude.
So I ask everyone who is reading this discussion this question:
If you were in an airplane as a passenger, which pilot would you feel
more comfortable with tooling around in a YAK-52? The guy who got spin
avoidance training, or the guy who practiced accelerated stalls for fun
and did them without a second thought, because recovery was a matter of
muscle memory and not a matter of having to think about it?
Lastly: "There's good reason to be afraid of spins. They are dangerous
and must be approached with great care and caution."
Well... Read the below list:
Short and Soft field landings.
Flying Partial Panel.
Slips in the traffic pattern.
Intentional Aerobatics.
Formation Flying.
Helicopters (any make or model)
Sky Diving.
Scuba Diving.
Racing. (car, airplane, bicycle... You name it)
Sex. (Certain aspects under certain conditions)
This list easily could cover many pages. The point is, ALL of the above
can be dangerous and must be approached with care, caution and proper
training. However, the idea is to GET trained and then enjoy doing
these things because you have mastered something and have learned that
you no longer have to fear it. Obviously in some cases the training
itself can end up being fun unto itself. I can point to more than one of
the things listed above and say that with certainty!
The bottom line though is that I would replace the word "FEAR" with
"RESPECT". I guess that is really what I am trying to say. I don't
agree with the use of the word FEAR at all. I do not think ANYBODY
should be told, or taught to FEAR something that they can learn to do
properly. Instead....learn to enjoy, and learn to master, every aspect
of something you want to do. Every Pilot should be taught to RESPECT
spins. To respect them before they learn how to do them, and to keep
respecting them AFTER they have learned how to do them. I guess that is
what I am really trying to say about the whole subject.
Being only taught to avoid spins .. To me... Is also a good way to teach
pilots to fear them. Being taught to DO spins takes away the fear, and
teaches a pilot how to respect them. Once you learn control, and learn
respect, avoidance becomes a simple matter of pilot choice.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 2:59 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Spins again
I am always in favor of training, training and more training. However,
there are spins and then there are spins, there are airplanes that will
recover from spins in one condition but will NOT recover in another
condition, instructors who know their stuff and those who don't but may
think they do. Also, aerobatics training is not the same as training
for stall and spin avoidance. Every airplane is different, loading and
CG are critical, so is recovery technique.
The best anti-spin technique is simply to keep the ball in the cage
while avoiding critical angle of attack. But there is no way to recover
from an accelerated stall and spin from two or three hundred feet
regardless of your training. Go try it at altitude and see for
yourself. And I'm talking spins of the half-turn incipient variety.
Most airplanes give absolutely NO indication they are about to break
into an accelerated stall. Emergency maneuvering is not the same as
emergency avoidance.
I know lots of you folks are highly skilled, highly experienced pilots.
Many are not. Balls-out, hair on fire is not a piloting technique, it
is an attitude. I'm just saying that when you get that training (which
I highly recommend), be sure you get proper, thorough instruction from
someone who knows from up and DON'T think that what you learned in that
Decathlon will automatically transfer to every other airplane, in every
loading condition, every other day. Yaks and CJ's ain't Decathlons.
-50's ain't -52's. Spin training, yes. Spin avoidance double yes.
There's good reason to be afraid of spins. They are dangerous and must
be approached with great care and caution. Leave the test flying to
those getting paid for it.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
JP@FlyWBa.com
www.FlyWBA.com
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Get your glider rating, spin training is required!
Frank
N23021
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CJ6A/P Nose Weight |
In a message dated 1/8/2009 10:56:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
threein60@yahoo.com writes:
Does he have ballast in the tail?
I weighed my aircraft (CJ6 w/M14P) last weekend, then weighed my neighbors
(CJ6 w/ M14P). Oddly enough mine came out 100lbs heavier on the nose wheel
then my Buddy's (637 lbs vs 537 lbs). I have a 500X5 Front tire and no
spinner, he has a spinner and 600X6 tire. The rest of the aircraft is the same
exact configuration. I'm thinking there was a problem with the scale or the
operator (me). Just curious, can anyone tell me where they are on their nose
wheel weight if you have a CJ6 w/M14P combination.
Thanks in advance..
Larry Pine
========
(mip://05b583f8/3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List")
========
(mip://05b583f8/3D"http://forums.matronics.com")
========
(mip://05b583f8/3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution")
========
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I don't think there is a question here whether or not spin training is the
good safety insurance or not. I believe that along with "normal spin"
training some or more time should be spent on the unusual attitudes from whence
spins can occur. Not just from just poorly started loops, rolls, or hammerheads,
(more a issue in Yaks) but in the mundane turns.
Year ago when I was teaching in Cubs and Champs, spins were required on our
school flight curriculum. In particularly what we called "over the top" and
"out of the bottom" spin entries. Crossed control spin entries.
The "over the top" spin was done from a climbing turn. After established, a
slip was induced by rudder, either by reducing required rudder or adding top
rudder, and the bank angle held with the ailerons. At stall, the airplane
would usually brake toward the high wing. If controls were held, she would
virtually, snap away from the turn and start to enter a spin opposite the
original turn. The same again was performed but this time by inducing a skid.
This time of course the airplane would brake into the turn.
The "out of the bottom" spins were done the same way except from a glide.
Of course this was to imply and simulate what could happen in the traffic
pattern. Of course the WW2 PT-22 had the worst reputation for stall/spin. I
am
willing to bet where most of the accidents happened?
If I remember correctly we spent more time on these stalls and spin entries
than we did on anything straight ahead.
Like a number have already remarked on this list, I believe one should be
very aware and training should cover ALL those realms of flight where
stall/spins can occur. In particularly in those that could happen at altitudes
and
speeds that one would encounter down wind to base, to final part of the
pattern. While I do not want to minimum-ize the need for training of spins at
altitude, pre-stall and eminent spin recognition is what may save more guys,
simply because they will fly though that area on every flight.
One other point. A lot of forced landings are blotched and turned deadly
because of the same problem. "Trying to hard - with nothing left". Trying to
turn back to the runway, after a takeoff engine failure? Once again - stall
with incipient spin will do them in.
The CJ does not want to spin BUT she will brake to a very nose down attitude
with wing snap, with any cross controls. If this happen below pattern
altitude, you may position the controls to recover from the stall and even stop
the spin, BUT there is no altitude left. From a 8 hundred feet, traffic
pattern there just not enough room for a recovery. She is just a very pretty
green
anvil.
Today I took my CJ-6 up to 4,000' and practiced a total stall series. At
one point I tried to simulate what might have happen. I hate to admit it but
the point here is in 1,500 hours of CJ-6 time, I've never done cross control
stalls with the gear and flaps down before in the CJ-6. So I was really
interested in what might happen. The airplane behaved as you would expect,
perhaps with slightly faster rolls rates than with gear and flaps up. (I would
have thought because of gear and flaps being down, they would dampen roll and
pitch rates). It seem to me it took considerably more control deflection to
produce the brake but the brake was sharper and roll rate higher. IAS at the
stall was about 75Kts and bank angle was around >45'. When the elevator was
held back, there was a very short stall burble which ended at the brake. The
nose pitched from about 10 deg nose down to about 85 deg nose down within 2
second and rolled about 90 deg at the same time. At that point I initiated
recovery. I found that the airplane had lost between 300 & 400 feet from the
brake altitude and required another 200' to 300' to recover to straight and
level flight. A average total of 600' from the brake altitude.
This was not an unusual "hairy" maneuver at 4,000' but down below pattern
altitude, I am sure it would instill panic, where someone might lock back on
the stick.
Not everyone in the aviation community has had the advantage of "government"
schools nor professional aviation back grounds. Compared to the 3K of
F-whatever time or 24,000 hr of heavy time, many of our members are low timers.
Many of our members start out at our local FBO and pay their way though the
tickets. There some schools out there better than others. And I personally
think that more training should be spend on basic stick and rudder. But in this
day of GPS, TSA, ADIZ, Class B,C,D, etc. the average private pilot has more
stuff to worry about and required to learn, than we did over 50 years ago.
Most likely most of our guys have gotten just the minima spin training during
their 10 hours insurance check outs. That is if their instructor isn't
afraid of CJ or Yak spins.
Passing the "word" at RPA clinics, airport coffee shop, coke machine by the
hangar, bar, or over this list, helps. Good training, - hopefully, will keep
the body count down.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
Spinning in the Yak 52 ... is good FUN !! ;-))
But get proper type specific training in YOUR Yak 52.
A few observations ... (repeat)
1. It doesn't hurt to use 2 hands on the stick to recover from a "good" flat
spin. The Russians do it.
2. A great way to enter a good flat spin is a modified stall turn (hammerhead).
I mean, this is the easiest way to consistently enter into an intentional flat
spin during training.
So I guess if you are going to fly stall turns it is probably a good idea to ask
an instructor to show you what a flat spin entry and recovery looks like ...
3. Once the spin has been flattened (out-spin aileron) it can be further accelerated
by unloading the elevator a small amount.
Are we having FUN yet ?
http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1029467/
http://www.forseilles.net/gallery/sanicole/B2V0752
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/photos/displayimage.php?pos=-764
4. Recovery from this intentional flat spin would work something like that :
opposite rudder, stick back (if you have unloaded), stick to the other
side and then forward. Recovery will be more consistent than going
straight to the "final" position.
5. Recovery will be faster (and easier) WITH power ON ... if you know
what you are doing.
To recover from intentional (flat) spinning the correct control will always work.
In the Yak-52, they will work better with power on.
The wrong inputs will not recover from a spin.
The wrong inputs with power on will make the lack of recovery even
more certain.
6. As for the Inverted accelerated and Inverted flat spins, I find them
quite hard to maintain because of the centrifugal force under negative
g's. And remember out-spin aileron in an inverted spin means moving
the aileron control to the same side to that which the rudder is applied.
7 . What about the cross-over spin : entering an inverted spin from a stall
in level upright flight ?
8. Competition spins ?
One turn - 1 turn and 1/4 - 1 turn and 1/2 ...
(Exits must be vertical).
9. Or going straight from a one turn and a half upright spin into an
inverted spin, a potentially disconcerting and dangerous situation ...
The so-called "change-over" spin ... WAOW ... now that's FUN !!
Etc ... etc ...
So to state the obvious one more time :
Emergency and planned (spin) RECOVERY techniques must be taught - in a TYPE specific
manner - with an Instructor experienced on TYPE.
Cheers,
Etienne. :D
Yak 52 "janie" (G-CBSS).
Having FUN with Yak 52 ...
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8502
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8503
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8504
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8505
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8506
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8507
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8508
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=5512
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=5514
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=5515
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Break.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Line_Astern_-_Cerfontaine_2008.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/REJ_428_2823.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Yak_52__G-CBSS_FLAT_SPIN.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/yak52.jpg
...... HAPPY 2009 ..................................
--------
http://www.flyforfun.be/?q=yaks
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/photos/displayimage.php?pos=-723
http://www.buysellaviation.com/index.php?page=out&id=477
http://www.yakkes.com/about.crew.show.php?crewmember=etienne
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223644#223644
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
flying airplanes and not learning spin recovery techniques is like getting the
key of a F1 car and not being told how and where the brakes are,
pilots should be encouraged to join the IAC and go thru the primary with an instructor
where you are taught to spin and recover in front of a crowd above 2000 feet
it would be worth your money, we also may save a dying sport...
a slip for landing is based on the premise that you have a lot of excess altitude
to bleed
therefore your angle of attack is always positive and the stick is way way down
with no chance (I guess someone will screw up eventually) of turning turtle during
its
performance. There is no way to do a slip with the stick up. Cross control with
attitude control
doesnt kill people.
ak
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I do....
Nigel
http://yakdisplay.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: 08 January 2009 22:44
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spins
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Do you spin the 52 Richard?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spins
--> <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Following a fatal spinning accident in a 52-flown by a highly
experienced pilot [one of the top handful of aerobatic pilots at a World
Championship level]BUT NO EXPERIENCE in the 52,I did a lot of research
into this issue.
I found SEVEN different flight manuals for the 52 and ONLY ONE went into
any detail of the potential problems of recovery from developed spins!
This is because the Russians and others were being taught in a military
system where spin training was done in the aircraft with a really
competent pilot.[Also,in passing,where no pilot was allowed to fly
aerobatics weighing more than 100 kgs-220 lbs,total with
clothes,parachute etc.!!] Richard G.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone
is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Spins
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> So basically what you are saying here Jerry is that you do not advise
> getting spin training in the type of aircraft that you own, be it a
> YAK-52, YAK-50 or CJ? And that instead of spin training, you
recommend
> spin avoidance instead. Again, if I am getting the wrong meaning out
of
> what you have written, please correct me.
>
> If I have indeed interpreted you correctly, I just want to say that I
> completely disagree with you. I have received spin training in a
number
> of different aircraft. Each one has it's own little way of doing
> things, and personally I do not think anyone should even begin to
think
> about doing aerobatics in a YAK-50 or 52 or CJ until they have
received
> spin training in the make and model of aircraft that they plan on
doing
> said aerobatics in.
>
> I do agree totally that there is always some risk involved.... That
risk
> starts as soon as you put the key into the ignition of a car, turn on
> the mags of an airplane, you name it. The risk factor increases doing
> spins, landing at night at a short field you have never landed at
> before, etc., etc. Life's a risk for heavens sake.
>
> FYI, both the 50 and 52 have a Flight Manual that has been translated
> from the original Russian. In that Flight Manual, it describes the
> procedures for certain aerobatic maneuvers including spins.
>
> When I learned to fly, some of the Instructors had never been in a
spin
> in their entire life. We were taught to avoid them at all costs, and
to
> be ... Pretty much... Scared to death of the darn things. I flew for
> YEARS with that stigma. I now fervently believe that it is the wrong
> way to go when it comes to flying airplanes.
>
> Let me repeat... I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I do not
> agree with you... Each of us has the right to not agree... So no mud
> slinging intended.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Painter
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 14:33
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Spins
>
<wild.blue@verizon.net>
>
> Gents--
>
> Not to beat the dog, but it may be wise to remember that spinning any
> airplane involves some risk, even your favorite fully tested and
> thoroughly flogged certified aerobatic airplane. Correct me here, but
> I'm unaware of any documented flight test data for Yak-50's, -52's or
> Nanchangs regarding fully developed and flat spins. I hope they were
> required to demonstrate some sort of spin recovery capability and
> documented demonstrated recovery techniques, something at least
> equivalent to what FAA requires for aerobatic airplane certification
> (which ain't much), but I've never seen any evidence.
> Anecdotes ain't documentation.
>
> Just because you did a couple of one or even two or three-rotation
spins
> in a 150 or 172 during CFI training or you read all about spins in
Gene
> Beggs'
> or Rich Stowell's books doesn't mean you know anything about spinning
> Yaks or Nanchangs. Yes, Craig, Nanchangs (forward CG) are hard to
hold
> in a spin but put a little weight in the tail and its a different
> matter. We all know too many folks have been killed in -52 spin
> accidents. Too many highly skilled, highly experienced pilots have
been
> killed in lots of different airplanes that were supposed to be safe to
> spin. Art Scholl--who was famous for his airshow 27-turn inverted
flat
> spins--comes to mind (Pitts S-2A).
>
> If you've ever seen any of the film of NASA spin testing Grumman
Yankees
> you have to wonder what ever made anyone involved in the project think
> the airplane had potential for aerobatic certification (which they had
> intended)
> Engineers get it wrong, too.
>
> The classic wings level, gradual speed reduction, stick all the way
> back, stand on the rudder spin entry and the equally classic crossed
> controls base to final skid entry are not what kill folks. It's not
> stalling at low altitude, either. It's distraction, surprise and
> especially--though I hate to say it--piss poor piloting technique.
It's
> not the entry, it's not the recovery, its awareness and avoidance that
> must be learned and exercised.
> That means keeping the nose down, the speed up, the ball in the cage,
> the bank shallow and your head on tight at low speed and low altitude.
>
> Spin training, yes--very carefully, in the right airplane with a truly
> qualified instructor. Test piloting--are you really sure you want to
do
> that?
>
> Let's be careful out there. Good piloting skills require proper
> instruction and lots of practice. To paraphrase Alexander the Great:
> De Le vigilance, encore de Le vigilance, toujour de Le vigilance!
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> 425-876-0865
> www.FlyWBA.com
> JP@FlyWBA.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.invictawiz.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|