Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:14 AM - Re: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Nigel Willson)
2. 02:13 AM - Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll (Richard Goode)
3. 05:07 AM - Re: Training (Craig Payne)
4. 11:23 AM - Stall/Spins (Fran Myers)
5. 12:04 PM - Re: Stall/Spins (N642K)
6. 12:20 PM - Re: Stall/Spins (terry lewis)
7. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Stall/Spins (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
8. 01:02 PM - Re: Stall/Spins (Herb Coussons)
9. 01:33 PM - Re: Stall/Spins (Rico Jaeger)
10. 01:44 PM - Re: Training (barryhancock)
11. 04:23 PM - THEY were wrong (Ron Davis)
12. 07:38 PM - I am Sorry (Fran Myers)
13. 09:03 PM - Re: Training (Craig Winkelmann)
14. 10:47 PM - Cold War Air Museum Blog (Jon Boede)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
'52 flat spin training starts at 10,000 feet, with both wearing parachutes.
Gives a lot of time to se the effects of power and controls on the way down.
Brief is that IF it doesn't recover by 4000', GIB gets out to bring C0fG
forward.
Then GIF has until 2500 with full (and held there) anti- flat spin controls
before he gets out too if not recovered.
That's the brief I use, but have never had to use it. All the '52s I've flow
ALWAYS come out IF the FULL anti-FLAT spin controls are held there (Full
opposite rudder, Full forward stick, Full in spin aileron). Sometimes takes
5 turns to have an effect - which is too long for some people who relax the
controls before then - a big no-no.
Nigel.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Etienne Verhellen
Sent: 09 January 2009 03:15
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
<etienne.verhellen@ba.com>
Spinning in the Yak 52 ... is good FUN !! ;-))
But get proper type specific training in YOUR Yak 52.
A few observations ... (repeat)
1. It doesn't hurt to use 2 hands on the stick to recover from a "good" flat
spin. The Russians do it.
2. A great way to enter a good flat spin is a modified stall turn
(hammerhead).
I mean, this is the easiest way to consistently enter into an intentional
flat spin during training.
So I guess if you are going to fly stall turns it is probably a good idea to
ask an instructor to show you what a flat spin entry and recovery looks like
...
3. Once the spin has been flattened (out-spin aileron) it can be further
accelerated by unloading the elevator a small amount.
Are we having FUN yet ?
http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1029467/
http://www.forseilles.net/gallery/sanicole/B2V0752
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/photos/displayimage.php?pos=-764
4. Recovery from this intentional flat spin would work something like that :
opposite rudder, stick back (if you have unloaded), stick to the other
side and then forward. Recovery will be more consistent than going
straight to the "final" position.
5. Recovery will be faster (and easier) WITH power ON ... if you know
what you are doing.
To recover from intentional (flat) spinning the correct control will always
work. In the Yak-52, they will work better with power on.
The wrong inputs will not recover from a spin.
The wrong inputs with power on will make the lack of recovery even
more certain.
6. As for the Inverted accelerated and Inverted flat spins, I find them
quite hard to maintain because of the centrifugal force under negative
g's. And remember out-spin aileron in an inverted spin means moving
the aileron control to the same side to that which the rudder is applied.
7 . What about the cross-over spin : entering an inverted spin from a stall
in level upright flight ?
8. Competition spins ?
One turn - 1 turn and 1/4 - 1 turn and 1/2 ...
(Exits must be vertical).
9. Or going straight from a one turn and a half upright spin into an
inverted spin, a potentially disconcerting and dangerous situation ...
The so-called "change-over" spin ... WAOW ... now that's FUN !!
Etc ... etc ...
So to state the obvious one more time :
Emergency and planned (spin) RECOVERY techniques must be taught - in a TYPE
specific manner - with an Instructor experienced on TYPE.
Cheers,
Etienne. :D
Yak 52 "janie" (G-CBSS).
Having FUN with Yak 52 ...
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8502
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8503
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8504
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8505
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8506
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8507
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8508
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=5512
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=5514
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=5515
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Break.j
pg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Line_As
tern_-_Cerfontaine_2008.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/REJ_428
_2823.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Yak_52_
_G-CBSS_FLAT_SPIN.jpg
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod@scarlet.be.11.12.2008/yak52.j
pg
...... HAPPY 2009 ..................................
--------
http://www.flyforfun.be/?q=yaks
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/photos/displayimage.php?pos=-723
http://www.buysellaviation.com/index.php?page=out&id=477
http://www.yakkes.com/about.crew.show.php?crewmember=etienne
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223644#223644
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll |
In reply to Herb Coussons,my personal view is that fuel load is not a
significant factor in 52 spinning,mainly because the standard tanks are
fairly small.
BUT anything,like wing fuel that increases rotational inertia will prolong
spin recovery.
The Sukhois were all tested with full wing tanks[in 26MX;29 and 31]where the
quantity is significant-55 US gallons and recovery is slower but totally
predictable and safe.
I do not believe that any of the 52 spinning accidents have been caused by
full tanks,but it might have been a factor.
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Herb Coussons" <drc@wscare.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll
>
> Could Scott and Richard address the developed spin and fuel load topic?
> I know what I have been told and read, but I would be interested to hear
> their opinions and I would like them to post so in the archives people
> can search and find this information. In the 55M and the 52TW there are
> fuel limitations that I understand to limit the ability to recover from
> the developed spin. I believe there have been some pilots in the
> standard 52 go to the ground because of the same thing, I anm not as
> familiar with the standard 52 though. Yet the Sukhoi does not have this
> limitation as the fuel is in the fuselage - centrally located in the
> spin.
>
> Thanks,
> Herb
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Scott Poehlmann wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> I can't comment on the -52, but I have several hundred hours of
>> aerobatic competition and practice in the 55M.
>>
>> The spin characteristics of the 55M are quite benign for a dedicated
>> acro plane. The break is fairly sharp with no tendency to mush at about
>> 100-105 kph. In an upright spin the nose drops with the wing and by 90
>> degrees of turn is down at about 30 degrees below the horizon which is
>> where it stays unless some action is taken. Recovery after up to 4 turns
>> is simple, stick to neutral, opposite rudder to direction of spin, and
>> it takes slightly less than 1/4 turn to stop. Increasing power to about
>> 60-70% during the recovery tends to speed up the recovery. Inverted the
>> situation is nearly identical, although recovery takes longer with power
>> off, more like 1/3 turn. With practice, the airplane can be successfully
>> spun with power anywhere from idle to about 90%. Flat spins can be
>> produced by adding power after the initial 1/2 turn to any spin, and the
>> effect is to bring the nose up to the horizon and increase the turn
>> rate. Particularly in the inverted setting, when flat, if power is not
>> reduced, the stick forces require both hands be used and the stick
>> should be pinned back or forward until rotation stops and the nose
>> pitches down. In "normal" (i.e,. not flat, non-accelerated) spins, the
>> airplane does recover with the Beggs-Mueller "hands-off" technique, but
>> it will not do so from a flat or accelerated spin, and requires positive
>> recovery in those cases.
>>
>> It has little or no tendency to tumble, and has no odd spin modes (by
>> contrast, the Su-29 has some very odd spin modes that can be entered
>> with large oscillations of pitch, and a tendency to enter a tumble if
>> the recovery is mis-managed). I actual practice the Russians teach a
>> technique which allows the pilot to control the spin throughout the
>> incipient and early developed stages. It requires leaving power on and a
>> judicious combination of stick and pedal inputs, but once mastered
>> allows one to create a perfectly reproducible spin under any conditions.
>> DO NOT try to learn this yourself, rather get a Russian coach to teach
>> you. It isn't hard, but is somewhat disconcerting when tried the first
>> about 100 times.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Scott Poehlmann
>> Yak 55M
>> N155YK
>>
>> Andrew Love wrote:
>>> The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the
>>> '52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the
>>> '55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright
>>> through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may
>>> be similar to the '50? Curious to know.
>>>
>>>
>>> /Andrew Love/
>>>
>>> /Contract Pilot /
>>>
>>> /NZCPL (A)/
>>> *Queenstown*
>>>
>>> *New Zealand*
>>>
>>>
>>> *//* */P +64 3 451 0396 I F +64 3 342 5189 I
>>> M +64 21 818 816/*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > From: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
>>> > To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
>>> Informal poll
>>> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530
>>> >
>>> > <richard.goode@russianaeros.com
>>> >
>>> > This is something about which I have posted several times
>>> before,but if it
>>> > saves lives it must be worth repeating.
>>> > I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.
>>> > It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.
>>> > The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when
>>> > spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.
>>> > As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful
>>> controls will
>>> > allways respond to normal spin recovery action.
>>> > On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from
>>> a spin up
>>> > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover
>>> from a
>>> > well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.
>>> > In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to
>>> themselves,and
>>> > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction
>>> from an
>>> > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different
>>> experience
>>> > is not enough!!
>>> > Richard
>>> > Richard Goode Aerobatics
>>> > Rhodds Farm
>>> > Lyonshall
>>> > Hereford
>>> > HR5 3LW
>>> > United Kingdom
>>> >
>>> > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
>>> > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
>>> > www.russianaeros.com
>>> > I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local
>>> phone is
>>> > +94 779 132 160.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup@hotmail.com>
>>> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:45 PM
>>> > Subject: Yak-List: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -
>>> Informal poll
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > <greasysideup@hotmail.com
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine
>>> about spin
>>> > > training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators
>>> of Yaks and
>>> > > Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset attitude
>>> course, how many
>>> > > have never done a spin and who spins their bird regularly. I am
>>> also
>>> > > interested if you know of other owners that have never done
>>> spins or are a
>>> > > little scared of them - Please no names. I had found much
>>> misinformation
>>> > > regarding the spin characteristics of my 50 when I was a new
>>> owner, mainly
>>> > > on the negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found
>>> untrue. This
>>> > > led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on
>>> my plane and
>>> > > leads me to believe there are many others who could use a good
>>> spin
>>> > > training course. All planes spin a little differently but I
>>> have found
>>> > > the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright, inverted and
>>> > > accelerated spins and able to recover within a few degrees of
>>> where I want
>>> > > to. With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!
>>> > > actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary
>>> to much
>>> > > that I had heard as a new owner. The conclusion I've come to is
>>> that
>>> > > there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily
>>> qualified to teach
>>> > > spins that has negative repercussions to both old and new
>>> owners who could
>>> > > really use the training.
>>> > >
>>> > > I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach
>>> spins have
>>> > > no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a
>>> little
>>> > > scared of them themselves. There is no formal couse for
>>> teaching CFI's
>>> > > spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and misinformation are
>>> passed
>>> > > along and perpetuated from one CFI to the next and if there is
>>> any
>>> > > trepidation at all in that instructor it will be passed
>>> immediately to the
>>> > > student.
>>> > >
>>> > > Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone
>>> teaching
>>> > > yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/
>>> upset attitude
>>> > > course by qualified instructors may be a welcome benefit as a
>>> sidebar to
>>> > > some of our formation clinics.
>>> > >
>>> > > If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted
>>> maneuvers
>>> > > including simple loops and rolls and are not completely
>>> confident and
>>> > > comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop
>>> immediately and find
>>> > > a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons. With a 1000
>>> hours teaching
>>> > > aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop wind up in an
>>> unintentional
>>> > > inverted spin. No big deal at all if you have seen it before. The
>>> > > lessons will be extremely enjoyable and you will have a new
>>> mastery and
>>> > > confidence in your flying abilities and your aircraft, once you
>>> learn to
>>> > > spin a stall is a no brainer.
>>> > >
>>> > > The questions are this
>>> > >
>>> > > 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an
>>> aerobatic
>>> > > aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?
>>> > > 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?
>>> > > 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?
>>> > > 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?
>>> > > 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap
>>> roll and
>>> > > recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery
>>> at simulated
>>> > > low altitudes?
>>> > > 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have
>>> heard?
>>> > > 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has
>>> happened in
>>> > > your plane?
>>> > > 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your
>>> plane( simulating
>>> > > inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)
>>> > > 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or
>>> inverted flight
>>> > > in their plane?
>>> > >
>>> > > Thoughts?
>>> > >
>>> > > -Josh
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Read this topic online here:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222965#222965
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -----------------------------------------------
>>> > > This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>> > > dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
>>> > > and is believed to be clean.
>>> > > http://www.invictawiz.com
>>> > > -----------------------------------------------
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Download today! Free Windows Live software. Chat, search, share pics
>>> and more. <http://get.live.com/>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the
> Invictawiz MailScanner and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.invictawiz.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
That is, flight training in general. In my local area, we get lots of snowbirds
from all over the world coming to Florida for both a winter vaction and recurrent
training: both US and PPL. I see an emphasis on mastering the newer glass
cockpits and flight management systems. Traffic? just look at the "fish finder",
Towers? Check the MFD for red dots. Look out the cockpit? Why do you need
to do that? My CFI friends in Flight Safety love to fly with me in the CJ, it's
a refreshing change from teaching the FMS and systems reviews.
Of course, flying our airplanes is different, we are fortunate to have aircraft
meant for maneuvering at prices comparable to the GA fleet. When I started flying
the CJ, my whole approach to flying changed. For the good I hope. Then I
started ferrying newer GA planes around the country. Suddenly there was glass
in my face and it wasn't canopy glass. While the PFD/MFD was a new world for me,
I found that my "heads up" CJ skills suffered as a result.
Sooo, how much time is a typical CFI in a Cirrus going to spend on unusual attitudes
when the customer is there to learn the "glass" in a new tricked out side
stick wonder?
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I am a long time lurker and I'd love to someday become a proud participant
in formation clinics. Hopefully I can afford a CJ or a -52 on my meager
salary someday. So I carefully will give you my opinion.
I am not sure the accident in Texas has as much to do with Spins/Upset as
much as slow speed awareness and airmanship. I am not at all slamming a
pilot I have never met. I have geared up an aircraft and I am certainly not
without other sins. But I think discussing spin characteristics and spin
recovery techniques is kind of missing the point. I say this because it
would take a VERY special aircraft and pilot combination to be able to
conduct a spin/spin recovery at less than 200' agl. I should also say that
should this aerobatic maneuver be accomplished successfully that it would be
planned and expected. Mr. Forrest was not planning a low altitude aerobatic
maneuver and I suspect that he barely had the words "Oh Shit" out before he
hit.
As an airport kid who hung around the local CAF wing and reading Air
Classics like it was the bible, I remember very clearly the stories about
how Ed Mahoney taught his son John and other Chino Kids (Steve Hinton and
others) how to fly the fighters and bombers of his museum. The emphasis was
flight at minimum controllable airspeed and stall recognition/recovery. Ed
would not allow the kids to advance to other aircraft or make demonstrations
until he felt the kids had mastered the stall/slow flight characteristics of
the current plane.
While I was CFI'ing many years ago, I found it quite surprising that pilots
with decades of experience over me were reluctant or refused to do Vmca.
Some of the reasons were engine abuse, discomfort, and fear. I accept that
engine repair costs can be considerable but when compared to death, a
cylinder seems trivial. The cost of the QUALIFIED Instructor for help is
usually a better investment than insurance. Stall and slow flight
characteristics must be practiced to a point that recognition/recovery is as
natural as breathing. Also just being comfortable with being slow and
knowing how the aircraft behaves goes a long way.
I just don't think that comparing 4 different aircraft with different
characteristics and discussing inverted flat spin recovery is relevant. I
just don't see the connection between a lead having a low speed / altitude
accident while trying to be situationally aware of 2 other aircraft in the
landing pattern. Also being less than a week from the accident we don't know
if there was a mechanical issue or not.
So I suggest that going out and doing a lot of flight at minimum
controllable airspeed and stalls in all conditions would be a closer
solution to the current circumstance.
Fran Myers
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Mr Myers,
While the discussion of spin/stall training has become the primary topic here,
everyone has been extremely sensitive about not relating it to the current tragedy
that took place at my airport.
Forrest was my friend and you do yourself a disservice by flippantly suggesting
what Mr. Johnson's last words may have been or what may have caused his accident.
I urge you to delete that posting. Please consider that he had many, many
friends here and a family with access to this site.
Discuss training all you want. I, in fact, encourage you to participate in the
meaningful discussions that have taken place here recently but do so without
trodding on the open wounds of grieving friends and relatives.
Sincerely,
Mike DeCanio
940-390-4747
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223731#223731
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Folks,
I am not sure the accident in Texas has anything at all to do with
stalls or spins or slow flight.
There is a ongoing accident investigation in progress and to introduce
pilot error as a probable cause at this point is premature to say the
least.
I can think of several things that could cause this kind of a problem
without the pilot being directly responsible.
We could mention FOD, or control system failures, stroke or heart attack
and I am sure you could add to these possibilities.
The reason the probable cause of an accident takes so long`is that there
are a lot of scenarios that must be considered .
I think the family has suffered enough. Lets end this idle speculation.
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message -----
From: Fran Myers
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:21 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Stall/Spins
I am a long time lurker and I'd love to someday become a proud
participant in formation clinics. Hopefully I can afford a CJ or a -52
on my meager salary someday. So I carefully will give you my opinion.
I am not sure the accident in Texas has as much to do with Spins/Upset
as much as slow speed awareness and airmanship. I am not at all slamming
a pilot I have never met. I have geared up an aircraft and I am
certainly not without other sins. But I think discussing spin
characteristics and spin recovery techniques is kind of missing the
point. I say this because it would take a VERY special aircraft and
pilot combination to be able to conduct a spin/spin recovery at less
than 200' agl. I should also say that should this aerobatic maneuver be
accomplished successfully that it would be planned and expected. Mr.
Forrest was not planning a low altitude aerobatic maneuver and I suspect
that he barely had the words "Oh Shit" out before he hit.
As an airport kid who hung around the local CAF wing and reading Air
Classics like it was the bible, I remember very clearly the stories
about how Ed Mahoney taught his son John and other Chino Kids (Steve
Hinton and others) how to fly the fighters and bombers of his museum.
The emphasis was flight at minimum controllable airspeed and stall
recognition/recovery. Ed would not allow the kids to advance to other
aircraft or make demonstrations until he felt the kids had mastered the
stall/slow flight characteristics of the current plane.
While I was CFI'ing many years ago, I found it quite surprising that
pilots with decades of experience over me were reluctant or refused to
do Vmca. Some of the reasons were engine abuse, discomfort, and fear. I
accept that engine repair costs can be considerable but when compared to
death, a cylinder seems trivial. The cost of the QUALIFIED Instructor
for help is usually a better investment than insurance. Stall and slow
flight characteristics must be practiced to a point that
recognition/recovery is as natural as breathing. Also just being
comfortable with being slow and knowing how the aircraft behaves goes a
long way.
I just don't think that comparing 4 different aircraft with different
characteristics and discussing inverted flat spin recovery is relevant.
I just don't see the connection between a lead having a low speed /
altitude accident while trying to be situationally aware of 2 other
aircraft in the landing pattern. Also being less than a week from the
accident we don't know if there was a mechanical issue or not.
So I suggest that going out and doing a lot of flight at minimum
controllable airspeed and stalls in all conditions would be a closer
solution to the current circumstance.
Fran Myers
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Dear Mike and others,
My condolences on your loss and the Johnson families loss.? As for this and just
about any other list sites you have now experienced what many of us have in
the past, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone seems to have one!"
Why we humans can't hold our tongues anymore is beyond me, my Father, God rest
his forthright soul, would be appalled at the things that go on in our world today.?
At the very least please accept my apology for anyone or anything that
might have offended you or Mr. Johnson's family that was said on the Yak List.?
Regards,
Gary 'Bunndini' Bunn
Vector Warbirds USA
-----Original Message-----
From: N642K <mdecanio@mac.com>
Sent: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 1:01 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Stall/Spins
Mr Myers,
While the discussion of spin/stall training has become the primary topic here,
everyone has been extremely sensitive about not relating it to the current
tragedy that took place at my airport.
Forrest was my friend and you do yourself a disservice by flippantly suggesting
what Mr. Johnson's last words may have been or what may have caused his
accident. I urge you to delete that posting. Please consider that he had many,
many friends here and a family with access to this site.
Discuss training all you want. I, in fact, encourage you to participate in the
meaningful discussions that have taken place here recently but do so without
trodding on the open wounds of grieving friends and relatives.
Sincerely,
Mike DeCanio
940-390-4747
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223731#223731
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
AMEN !!
Topics lead to other topics and I do not believe any of the common
posters on this topic, Mark, Jerry, Craig, Pappy, Andre, Scott,
Richard, myself and others are linking the current topic of aerobatics
and spins to the recent tragic accident.
Herb
On Jan 9, 2009, at 2:19 PM, terry lewis wrote:
> Folks,
> I am not sure the accident in Texas has anything at all to do with
> stalls or spins or slow flight.
> There is a ongoing accident investigation in progress and to
> introduce pilot error as a probable cause at this point is premature
> to say the least.
> I can think of several things that could cause this kind of a
> problem without the pilot being directly responsible.
> We could mention FOD, or control system failures, stroke or heart
> attack and I am sure you could add to these possibilities.
> The reason the probable cause of an accident takes so long`is that
> there are a lot of scenarios that must be considered .
> I think the family has suffered enough. Lets end this idle
> speculation.
> Terry Lewis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fran Myers
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:21 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Stall/Spins
>
> I am a long time lurker and I=92d love to someday become a proud
> participant in formation clinics. Hopefully I can afford a CJ or a
> -52 on my meager salary someday. So I carefully will give you my
> opinion.
>
> I am not sure the accident in Texas has as much to do with Spins/
> Upset as much as slow speed awareness and airmanship. I am not at
> all slamming a pilot I have never met. I have geared up an aircraft
> and I am certainly not without other sins. But I think discussing
> spin characteristics and spin recovery techniques is kind of missing
> the point. I say this because it would take a VERY special aircraft
> and pilot combination to be able to conduct a spin/spin recovery at
> less than 200=92 agl. I should also say that should this aerobatic
> maneuver be accomplished successfully that it would be planned and
> expected. Mr. Forrest was not planning a low altitude aerobatic
> maneuver and I suspect that he barely had the words =93Oh Shit=94 out
> before he hit.
>
> As an airport kid who hung around the local CAF wing and reading Air
> Classics like it was the bible, I remember very clearly the stories
> about how Ed Mahoney taught his son John and other Chino Kids (Steve
> Hinton and others) how to fly the fighters and bombers of his
> museum. The emphasis was flight at minimum controllable airspeed and
> stall recognition/recovery. Ed would not allow the kids to advance
> to other aircraft or make demonstrations until he felt the kids had
> mastered the stall/slow flight characteristics of the current plane.
>
> While I was CFI=92ing many years ago, I found it quite surprising that
> pilots with decades of experience over me were reluctant or refused
> to do Vmca.Some of the reasons were engine abuse, discomfort, and
> fear. I accept that engine repair costs can be considerable but when
> compared to death, a cylinder seems trivial. The cost of the
> QUALIFIED Instructor for help is usually a better investment than
> insurance. Stall and slow flight characteristics must be practiced
> to a point that recognition/recovery is as natural as breathing.
> Also just being comfortable with being slow and knowing how the
> aircraft behaves goes a long way.
>
> I just don=92t think that comparing 4 different aircraft with
> different characteristics and discussing inverted flat spin recovery
> is relevant. I just don=92t see the connection between a lead having a
> low speed / altitude accident while trying to be situationally aware
> of 2 other aircraft in the landing pattern. Also being less than a
> week from the accident we don=92t know if there was a mechanical issue
> or not.
>
> So I suggest that going out and doing a lot of flight at minimum
> controllable airspeed and stalls in all conditions would be a closer
> solution to the current circumstance.
>
> Fran Myers
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I certainly understand what you're saying, Mr. DeCanio. And I whole-hearted
ly commend your noble effort to maintain the good name of a lost friend.
As many of you can attest to, I'm sure we all know fellow pilots who are
always all-too-eager to critically analyze an incident without being fully
knowledgeable on the facts and circumstances. But I believe it's these
"armchair-quarterbacks" whom fear their own mortality the most, and they
take refuge in finding quick mistakes rather than simply acknowledging
that what we do is fraught with hazard - and if we fly w/ even the
slightest bit or complacency or arrogance, even the very best will get
"bit." I have no doubt that Mr. Johnson did all he could to insure the
safety of himself, his crew
I did not know Mr. Johnson, but perhaps I knew him in a way - through our
passion for something in life that cannot be adequately explained via
simple verbiage: it must be experienced. I'm sorry to have lost a
potential friend, and I'm tragically sorry for the multiple families
impacted forever by this incident.
If you choose to draw judgement, please do so introspectively. Remember,
"pride comes before the fall."
My sincere and heart-felt condolences to those of you directly connected
to this accident. And let it please be a reminder to us that in someone's
eyes - we are all held as precious and irreplaceable.
>>> "N642K" <mdecanio@mac.com> 1/9/2009 2:01 PM >>>
Mr Myers,
While the discussion of spin/stall training has become the primary topic
here, everyone has been extremely sensitive about not relating it to the
current tragedy that took place at my airport.
Forrest was my friend and you do yourself a disservice by flippantly
suggesting what Mr. Johnson's last words may have been or what may have
caused his accident. I urge you to delete that posting. Please consider
that he had many, many friends here and a family with access to this site.
Discuss training all you want. I, in fact, encourage you to participate
in the meaningful discussions that have taken place here recently but do
so without trodding on the open wounds of grieving friends and relatives.
Sincerely,
Mike DeCanio
940-390-4747
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223731#223731
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Agreed on all points. However, the CJ/Yak lends it self to the type of flying
that intentionally puts you closer to the ragged edge. I think it's doubly important
for us to maintain/refresh UAR and OCF skills. If I had to hazard a guess,
I'd say less than 25% of us have intentionally set out on a hop in the last
24 months dedicated to Unusual Attitude Recovery and Out of Control Flight
recovery practice.
I've solicited the help of the RPA to develop a survey our members, anonymously,
on the state of our flight training currency. I'd like to develop a meaningful
survey that can produce worthwhile results from which we can both inform our
members, and suggest ways to improve currency and proficiency. If it saves
one life, it's beyond worth it.
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223752#223752
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Whoever the THEY was that predicted parity between the dollar and the yuan
missed by quite a bit.
Chinese Yuans to 1 USD (invert=2Cdata)
120 days
latest (Jan 9)6.83557
lowest (Aug 26)6.78
highest (Dec 1)6.8842Doug=2C I agree with your comment (in July) that the
US is/was on the edge of being in very deep poop. It might be a little pas
t the edge right now. Have you tried to buy any gold lately? There's a wa
iting list for foreign coins and the crappy US coins are out of production
due to "a shortage of blanks".
ist@matronics.comSubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Different Props for Housai
Ron=2C
You miss the point. THEY think that par or close to par is in fact going t
o happen=2C rather is does or does not is not the issue. Because of this b
elief they are either refusing to sell=2C (waiting for the big bucks)=2C or
have jacked up the price on most items 20% to 30% and 40% on selected item
s. To the Chinese seller of aircraft parts=2C you are akin to Bill Gates
=2C and you have so much money that another 20% to 30% will not stop you f
rom buying parts. They read Trade a Plane too. They are eager to site the
doubling of fuel prices not stopping us from driving our big cars. Right
or wrong it's all about perceptions. And yes you are correct=2C the RMB is
only worth 0.1455 cents to our Pacific Peso today=2C but not too long ago
it was only worth 0.05!! These folks are poised to eat our lunch=2C I have
been in this game nearly 20 years=2C am in China at least once a year ever
y year and have seen the changes. Believe me my friend when I say that we
are right on the edge of being in very deep poop!
On Sun=2C Jul 20=2C 2008 at 12:15 PM=2C Ron Davis <l39parts@hotmail.com> wr
ote:
Par by Christmas? Who's talking about the rmb=2C currently worth 14 cents
=2C being worth a dollar by Christmas? That would put Wal-Mart out of busi
ness. The chances of that are less than the chances of Hillary becoming Mc
Cain's VP.
st@matronics.comSubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Different Props for Housai
Craig=2C
You can buy a surplus aircraft with a 0 time engines? I can't find them fo
r around 40K? 50K maybe. Most of the aircraft imported latley are timed o
ut by Chinese standards=2C engine 500 hours=2C and airframe @ 3800 to 4000
hours. If you want a 500 hour engine there is no need to go to all that b
other=2C they are all over the US for 3-4K.
No unfortunatly the days of the 10K 285 is long gone. If you can buy one f
or 15 to 18K take my advice and do it=2C 2 years or less you will thank me
. M14P's are pushing 25K and the rmb is still gaining strength aginst the
dollar. They are talking about par by Christmas=2C you do the math.
On Wed=2C Jul 9=2C 2008 at 4:39 PM=2C Craig Winkelmann=2C CFI <capav8r@gmai
l.com> wrote:
m>At those kind of prices for engines=2C we can buy a surplus aircraft=2C t
ake the engine and part out the plane and be ahead of the game.CraigRead th
is topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192044#1
92044-- Always Yakin=2CDoug SappPhone 509-826-4610Fax 509-826-3644
rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Par
Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Ge
t started.
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
a href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat
ronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-- Always Yakin=2CDoug SappPhone 509-826-4610Fax 509-826-3644
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Gentleman,
I sincerely had no intention of causing pain. I have no idea
what caused the incident and I had truly tried to be on the side of good.
Unfortunately, in trying to be a productive member of the list, and whether
you believe me or not I honestly thought there was some attack on the man
and in my poorly worded post was taken in a way that I had not planned.
To family and friends I am sorry.
I don't do this kind of flying and have always wanted to. I will not give my
background but I am not a 200hr pilot and I fly professionally. But I should
not have spoken about what I don't know about. I have done very little
aerobatics mostly because my weight will not allow for aerobatic maneuvers
in most general aviation aircraft.
I have emailed Matt about removing the offending post because I don't know
how. Hopefully, it will be removed before I hurt others.
If this apology is not enough, feel free to email me directly and I will
contact you off line.
Fran Myers
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Craig:
Take a look at TAA (Technically Advanced Aircraft) flight training. The concept
is that above 1000 feet, the autopilot should be engaged and flying the plane.
This allows the pilot the ability to push buttons, turn knobs, read displays,
etc while Fred is flying the plane for you. For most GA pilots who are using
a plane to travel from point A to point B, this probably isn't bad.
The CAP G-1000 equipped 182 I fly has recently been updated with ADS-B capability.
It is one of a handful of planes in the country with the capability. The
situational awareness in this plane with XM wx, G-1000 and ADS-B is incredible.
Even with all this capability, there is still a wing to fly and other planes
to look for. I was on a flight the other evening on a west heading - so toward
setting sun. About a half mile ahead of me I saw a silhouette passing from
left to right. It was an ultralight out for an evening flight around a lake.
Guess what....it didn't show up on the $50,000 G-1000 with the $12K ADS-B
added capability because it didn't have a transponder. Raleigh radar didn't
see it either! My point is, my fear is that for the average GA guy, they are
flying more heads down than heads out the window with all the stuff there is to
do inside the cockpit to fly these planes. So, keep looking for them...they
may not see you!
As for training, CAP regs will not allow me to instruct in a G-1000 equipped 182
unless I receive 15 hours of dual from a Cessna factory trained CFI. Huh....In
addition, CAP regs prohibit spinning CAP aircraft. So, when I instruct in
CAP planes, I teach stall recognition and recovery and harp on the ball being
centered. A stall without yaw is a stall.
Here are my further observations about flight training. Most CFIs are only doing
it to time build. The pay is bad enough that you can't make a living doing
it (a YMCA swim instructor makes more per hour as do many other types of instructors).
So you can't expect them to teach the realm of spins, etc. as that
is "specialty training." To learn that, you have to seek upset/recovery training
and/or aerobatic training. The quality of instruction would go up if the
pay would go up and allow folks to become career flight instructors. Some have
"made it" but they are few and far between. There are always exceptions.
I would further venture to guess that most pilots flying our Yaks and CJs (with
the exception of the military trained folks) don't understand the V-G diagram,
load vs bank, and bank vs % increased stall speed graphs. I'd also guess that
hardly anybody has done a V-G diagram for their plane at the weight they usually
fly it at. Some may not even know where the CG is in their typical flight
config. While this may be a bit technical for most, it is what defines the
envelope of flight for an aircraft. A good understanding of these diagrams coupled
with good in aircraft training would go a long way. All the spin training
in the world will not teach that at 70 degrees of bank you are over 3 gs and
have increased your stall speed by nearly 60 percent - in unaccelerated flight.
That comes from the graphs!
By the way, the spin recovery technique for a Cirrus is "pull the chute." In new
Cirrus models, recovery from an unusual attitude is "push the blue button."
I'm sure each will save lives.
Cheers,
Craig W.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223817#223817
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Cold War Air Museum Blog |
My friend says that when we tell our grandkids how we got our hands on a bu
nch of aircraft following the collapse of the Soviet Union... that they're
not going to believe us. :-) So I've started a Blog to document what we'v
e been up to.
If you're bored=2C or just want to amuse yourself with how a bunch of Texas
hicks are trying to put together a MiG-21=2C a MiG-23=2C two Mi-24s=2C fou
r Mi-2s and some other stuff=2C it's at http://blog.cwam.org
For example=2C tonight I learned that changing the grease in a MiG-23 wing
bolt is like scooping a quart of doggy doo out of a mason jar... by hand.
:-)
And I still have to write up the story of how our Polish parts contact loca
ted a new Mi-24 transmission ... in Afghanistan. And then drove down in hi
s pickup truck to go get it!
Where else can you find entertainment like that?? :-)
Jon
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|