Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:01 AM - Cowl removal -52 (Bill1200)
2. 11:26 AM - Re: Cowl removal -52 (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 12:39 PM - Re: Cowl removal -52 (Bill1200)
4. 01:50 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09 (SRGraham)
5. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Spins (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09 (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 03:39 PM - CJ LERX (Craig Payne)
8. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Spins (Chris Wise)
9. 04:56 PM - Re: CJ LERX (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
10. 09:49 PM - MiG-23 progress (Jon Boede)
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| Subject: | Cowl removal -52 |
New owner, have not removed the cowl yet. Nearest mechanic with YAK experience
45min away. Need to know how to remove cowl by myself, thanks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224535#224535
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl removal -52 |
Attached is a photo of the lower cowling on a Yak 52 with a bungee cord
pulled from one of the exhaust stack holes up to and around one of the
prop blades at the root of the blade. This holds the lower cowl in
place while you open the top cowl. Remove the latch pins at the rear
of the cowl at the junction of where the top and bottom cowl meet. Many
52's no longer have these in place. Next, loosen the latch fasteners on
each side of the cowl by turn each fastener 1/4 turn counterclockwise.
Lift each side of the upper cowling so as to release the top cowl from
the bottom cowl. Place a rag or rubber mat on the top of the front
canopy eyebrow glass. This will prevent the top cowl from scratching
the eyebrow glass. Place a small rag or something similar at the top of
the nose strut behind the back edge of the lower cowl. This will
prevent the lower cowl from nicking the paint on the nose strut when it
is removed. Using a short step ladder, stand directly in front of the
prop dome, grab the top cowl on either side by the latches and lift and
push the cowl toward the canopy. Place the top cowl on the pins just
behind the leather baffle end pieces at the #2 and #9 cylinders.
Now remove the bungee cord holding the lower cowl. The lower cowl
should drop down at the front and be held up by a small hook on a
braided wire. Go to the rear of the lower cowl. On each side at the
rear you will see a latch pin. Remove the latch pin from both sides.
Now go to the front of the cowl and place your right foot on the front
tire and rest the lower cowl on your knee. Remove the hook from the
bracket and drop the cowl down far enough to clear the exhaust stacks.
To reinstall, reverse the procedure and don't forget to use the bungee
cord to hold the lower cowl in place when you bring the top cowl down to
the bottom cowl. Makes it a whole lot easier.
That's it.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill1200
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Cowl removal -52
New owner, have not removed the cowl yet. Nearest mechanic with YAK
experience 45min away. Need to know how to remove cowl by myself,
thanks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224535#224535
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl removal -52 |
Thanks, and thanks Roger as well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224554#224554
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| Subject: | RE: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09 |
Hi Roger,
I get a UK phone company at yakworld.com, so is this the correct website for
Dennis
Savareses website. www.yakworld.com??
Stewart G
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak-List Digest
Server
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
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Total Messages Posted Mon 01/12/09: 11
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (A. Dennis
Savarese)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
3. 04:53 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (A. Dennis
Savarese)
4. 05:17 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (nc69666@aol.com)
6. 08:37 AM - 300 nm range restriction (Barry Hancock)
7. 09:10 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Peter K. Van
Staagen)
9. 12:17 PM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
10. 07:36 PM - Re: Spins (Jerry Painter)
11. 09:21 PM - Re Spins Yak 52 (Chris Wise)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 04:17:00 AM PST US
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both the
front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s any
correlation, but the needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is
now in the other half of the instrument (at the side of the emergency
pressure indicator) at about two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is still
at the normal 60 kg/cm=B2. The aircraft was last flown at the end of
december 2008, just before the extremely cold weather. And at that time
everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The amount
of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with
a presence of about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit (quite normal in my
Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure was
again at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock. Although
the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because
we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 04:46:33 AM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Yes, we checked, and the rear instrument was more or less =93normal=94
(but
low).
I start to think that the problem must be due to enclosed humidity.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:15
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both the
front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis <mailto:jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
degrees
celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s any correlation,
but the
needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half
of
the instrument (at the side of the emergency pressure indicator) at
about
two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=B2.
The
aircraft was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the
extremely cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back
to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The amount of
motion
to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with a
presence of
about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit (quite normal in my Yak 50 after
some
time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure was
again
at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the
needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock. Although the
pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because we
could
start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 04:53:36 AM PST US
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Ahhhh. Based on that, I think you have 2 instruments (one in the 50 and
one in the 52) that are not operating correctly in the very cold
weather. You may try warming the instruments slowly with a hair dryer
and see if the pressure reading drops back to "normal".
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Yes, we checked, and the rear instrument was more or less =93normal=94
(but low).
I start to think that the problem must be due to enclosed humidity.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:15
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both
the front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s any
correlation, but the needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is
now in the other half of the instrument (at the side of the emergency
pressure indicator) at about two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is still
at the normal 60 kg/cm=B2. The aircraft was last flown at the end of
december 2008, just before the extremely cold weather. And at that time
everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle
moved back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure was
again at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the
same hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this
52, the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.m
atronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhtt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 05:17:29 AM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thanks, will try that !
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:52
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Ahhhh. Based on that, I think you have 2 instruments (one in the 50 and
one
in the 52) that are not operating correctly in the very cold weather.
You
may try warming the instruments slowly with a hair dryer and see if the
pressure reading drops back to "normal".
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis <mailto:jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Yes, we checked, and the rear instrument was more or less =93normal=94
(but
low).
I start to think that the problem must be due to enclosed humidity.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:15
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both the
front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis <mailto:jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
degrees
celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s any correlation,
but the
needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half
of
the instrument (at the side of the emergency pressure indicator) at
about
two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=B2.
The
aircraft was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the
extremely cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back
to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The amount of
motion
to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with a
presence of
about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit (quite normal in my Yak 50 after
some
time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure was
again
at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the
needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock. Although the
pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because we
could
start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 08:04:40 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
From: nc69666@aol.com
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure enters
the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found the opening w
ith a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of brass.. What I
did was to take a very fine probe and worked the blockage out ot the openin
g, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument so when I loosened the
obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the debris out of the opening..
It has worked fine ever since..
Gary=C2-=C2- CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20 de
grees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if there=99s an
y correlation, but the needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is now
in the other half of the instrument (at the side of the emergency pressure
indicator) at about two o=99clock. Emergency pressure is still at the
normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. =C2-The aircraft was last flown at the end of decem
ber 2008, just before the extremely cold weather. And at that time everythin
g was normal.
=C2-
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved back t
o the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The amount of
motion to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with a pres
ence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main c
ircuit (quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
=C2-
I =C2-charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this corre
sponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main pressure =C2-was ag
ain at two o=99clock.
=C2-
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same hanga
r we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52, the needle
of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock. Although the pres
sure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because we could sta
rt it without difficulties.
=C2-
Has anyone seen this before ?
=C2-
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
-= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
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-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:37:55 AM PST US
From: Barry Hancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Subject: Yak-List: 300 nm range restriction
Hey Skip,
I believe this was covered a few months back on the list, but
essentially if you go to the EAAWB web site they will give you a step
by step. With the memorandum in hand you can apply for an addendum
to your existing Operating Limitations, or have new one's issued.
We've been successful in doing both with the local FSDO. As always,
the more educated you are the smoother the process will go.
Here's an excerpt from the EAAWB release in '07
How to obtain the letter of deviation:
Former military aircraft receiving initial experimental exhibition
(FAR 21.191(d)) certification from today forward, need to present the
September 11, 2007 FAA Memorandum to their FSDO in order to be exempt
from the 300/600-mile proficiency flight area limitation. The next
change to FAA Order 8130.2(F) will contain the elimination of this
requirement, but in the meantime, this FAA Memorandum is the
authority to remove the proficiency flight area limitation on their
operating limitations.
All former military experimental exhibition aircraft in Groups I, II,
and III currently operating and with the flight proficiency 300/600
mile limitations on their operating limitations must continue to
operate under the issued limitations until such time they get their
operating limitations updated from their local FSDO.
All former military experimental exhibition aircraft owners can
immediately apply to their local FSDO to amend their operating
limitations to eliminate the 300/600-mile flight proficiency area
limitation. Once amended, they will no longer have a proficiency
flight area limitation. When submitting the request to the FSDO to
drop the proficiency area limitation, owners should:
Submit a cover letter to their local FSDO=97=93Request the operating
limitations issued to TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, N-NUMBER, be updated to
eliminate the proficiency flight area limitation per FAA Memorandum,
subject: Deviation to Order 8130.2, dated September 11, 2007, from
Frank Paskiewicz, Manager AIR-200. FAA headquarters, AFS-800, and
AIR-200 have approved that this operating limitation change request
will be processed per FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 27b(6), and no
aircraft certification inspection is required for this paperwork
change.=94
The owners need to attach the following to their letter:
(1) A completed FAA Form 8130-6 http://forms.faa.gov/forms/
faa8130-6d.pdf; and
(2) A copy of their current operating limitations (not the original);
and
(3) A copy of their aircraft registration (not the original); and
(4) A copy of the FAA Memorandum from AIR-200.
As a note, once the local FSDO office is ready to update the
operating limitations, the owners can expect to go to that office and
exchange their old operating limitations for a new set (face to face).
The mailing addresses for local FSDOs is at: http://www.faa.gov/about/
office_org/field_offices/fsdo/
Good luck!
Barry
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 09:10:22 AM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thank you all for the ideas.
So, the different possibilities:
- Frozen water in the lines; if that is the case, the problem
should disappear after warming up the aircraft (we=99ll put a
small bathroom heater with thermostate inside the cockpits to check,
since it is still way too cold here);
- An obstruction at the entrance of the gauges; if the first
option does not work, we=99ll take the gauges out to verify the
orifice at the entrance;
- Gauges severely damaged in one way or another (apparently
they have seen cracked up gauges in Russia in times of extreme cold) ,
in which case they have to be replaced.
As soon as I have a conclusive result, I=99ll inform the list. It
will be interesting to see if both the Yak 50 and the Yak 52 have the
same diagnosis.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nc69666@aol.com
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 17:03
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found the
opening with a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of
brass.. What I did was to take a very fine probe and worked the blockage
out ot the opening, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument so
when I loosened the obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the
debris out of the opening.. It has worked fine ever since..
Gary CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20 degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if
there=99s any correlation, but the needle of the main pressure
gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half of the instrument (at the
side of the emergency pressure indicator) at about two o=99clock.
Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. The aircraft
was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the extremely
cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was again at two o=99clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
://forums.matronics.com
lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
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________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 09:49:44 AM PST US
From: "Peter K. Van Staagen" <petervs@knology.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
My guess is that water has collected in the gauge, frozen, bent the
diaphragm.
Pete
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__
----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thank you all for the ideas.
So, the different possibilities:
- Frozen water in the lines; if that is the case, the problem
should disappear after warming up the aircraft (we=99ll put a
small bathroom heater with thermostate inside the cockpits to check,
since it is still way too cold here);
- An obstruction at the entrance of the gauges; if the first
option does not work, we=99ll take the gauges out to verify the
orifice at the entrance;
- Gauges severely damaged in one way or another (apparently
they have seen cracked up gauges in Russia in times of extreme cold) ,
in which case they have to be replaced.
As soon as I have a conclusive result, I=99ll inform the list. It
will be interesting to see if both the Yak 50 and the Yak 52 have the
same diagnosis.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nc69666@aol.com
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 17:03
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found the
opening with a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of
brass.. What I did was to take a very fine probe and worked the blockage
out ot the opening, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument so
when I loosened the obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the
debris out of the opening.. It has worked fine ever since..
Gary CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20 degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if
there=99s any correlation, but the needle of the main pressure
gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half of the instrument (at the
side of the emergency pressure indicator) at about two o=99clock.
Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. The aircraft
was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the extremely
cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was again at two o=99clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
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://forums.matronics.com
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________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 12:17:12 PM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
In that case, I=99ll have to replace it. I=99ll verify asap.
Thanks!
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter K. Van
Staagen
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 18:44
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
My guess is that water has collected in the gauge, frozen, bent the
diaphragm.
Pete
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__
----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thank you all for the ideas.
So, the different possibilities:
- Frozen water in the lines; if that is the case, the problem
should disappear after warming up the aircraft (we=99ll put a
small bathroom heater with thermostate inside the cockpits to check,
since it is still way too cold here);
- An obstruction at the entrance of the gauges; if the first
option does not work, we=99ll take the gauges out to verify the
orifice at the entrance;
- Gauges severely damaged in one way or another (apparently
they have seen cracked up gauges in Russia in times of extreme cold) ,
in which case they have to be replaced.
As soon as I have a conclusive result, I=99ll inform the list. It
will be interesting to see if both the Yak 50 and the Yak 52 have the
same diagnosis.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nc69666@aol.com
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 17:03
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found the
opening with a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of
brass.. What I did was to take a very fine probe and worked the blockage
out ot the opening, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument so
when I loosened the obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the
debris out of the opening.. It has worked fine ever since..
Gary CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20 degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if
there=99s any correlation, but the needle of the main pressure
gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half of the instrument (at the
side of the emergency pressure indicator) at about two o=99clock.
Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. The aircraft
was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the extremely
cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was again at two o=99clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
://forums.matronics.com
lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
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<http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000022
> Start Listening Now!
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 07:36:37 PM PST US
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
Years ago I taught college AF, Navy and Marine ROTC cadets how to fly. One
guy in particular was pretty sharp and wound up instructing on T-38's. He
was killed in short order by a student who stalled and snapped the aircraft
in the pattern. I gave another guy a BFR about a year ago who had also
instructed on T-38's. Had some pretty good stories.
I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying slow in different
configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how an airplane will
behave in those situations you'd rather avoid. Sensitizes the hind quarters
and earballs, encourages proper movement of hands and feet. It won't
prevent the diversion induced unexpected tho it makes folks more aware of
the possibilities and consequences so more likely to practice avoidance.
Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right airplane, but in and
of themselves don't really expose folks (usually) to the kinds of situations
that lead to the unexpected. -52's are very docile aircraft, usually, but I
m not going to spin one. I'll take the word of folks like Richard Goode and
the unfortunate experiences of those who've been killed in them (including a
friend of mine) to heart. Learning at least basic aerobatics is good, too.
Opens the envelope. We are so fortunate that these airplanes became
available when they did and at reasonable prices so standard issue
folks/aging boomers could join up to do the kind of flying the airplanes
were built to do. Not readily available elsewhere on the civilian market.
T-34's, T-6's, T-28's etc are a bit pricey for most of us. Glad to see that
others, RV's etc have joined in the fun.
BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito doing a fly by
that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll, inverted stall/spin,
flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent power reduction. Almost
looks intentional and almost recovered. Not pretty. I presume the pilot
was an otherwise experienced and sharp sort.
The -52 spin article is worth making more widely available--why don't you to
post to the list? In fact I think I'll post this whole discussion.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Me neither. Recognizing and breaking it before it develops is my intention
and plan. You can learn to recognize it by going out an flying the aircraft
on the edge of the stall in clean and dirty configurations. Ive seen more
than once the results of an accelerated stall/ spin on base final in the
T-38 and F-5. Both do not like slow, hi angle of attach whether it be pitch
or bank, and cross control. She snap roll into a spin in a heart beat in the
dirty configuration. I expect the same from our trainers too. The higher you
climb up the curve of the graft, the more likely to be rewarded with and
unpleasant reward.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: Spins
Haven't flown a -50, but -52's are very sweet handling and docile airplanes,
tho not quite as docile as a Nanchang. Nevertheless, I have no desire or
intentions of ever flat spinning one.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
No the spin study came from the Univ of Tenn. It is posted on Dennis
Savareses website. www.yakworld.com I also heard about it from Sergie. How
he knew about it, I do not remembers since that conversation took place
about 7 or 8 years ago.
The YAK does a great job of talking to you before she breaks and can prevent
it by quickly neutralizing the controls and decreasing the AOA. At least
that has been my experience to date. I have not taken her up and done dirty
breaks with her. Guess I need to do that.
Fly safe.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Spins
Interesting. Did you get that from the RPA web site?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Thanks Jerry. Im still lurking and watching with interest some of the
responses. Some are taking way too much personal and not considering that
there is a lot to be learned from this unfortunate accident that was totally
preventable. But in the military, that is what we do, analyze the mistakes
of the incident or accident pilot or pilots at each quarterly safety meeting
There is always time for improvement in what we do or suffer the
consequences of the mistakes. We are not at war and we are not trying to
recover for sortie re-armament/regeneration. There is nothing wrong with
going around if the runway cannot be lined up without dangerous over
correction.
My heart and prayers go out to these pilots and their families. The sad
thing is this was preventable Im sure. Guess Im being prejudge mental
before the NTSB finishes its yearlong investigation. On AD, it takes 30 days
to arrive at an answer.
As for the use of power to recover, I agree but be sure to decrease the AOA
along with avoiding cross control during the recovery if low and slow. I
will enclose the spin study done a Vandy on the YAK-52. Not sure how it
stacks up for the CJ since I have never flown one.
Fly safe,
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Spins
Hi Doc--
Glad to see you're still lurking. And thanks. Some interesting posts about
using power for sharper recovery etc--probably way above the pay grade of
most of us, but good info. Just don't try it at home without proper parental
supervision, eh?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: Spins
Jerry,
Well said. In your last post.
Doc
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 09:21:54 PM PST US
From: "Chris Wise" <wise@txc.net.au>
Subject: Yak-List: Re Spins Yak 52
I was fortunate to own a half share in a Yak 52 and had some very good
aerobatic guys help sharpen my aero's.
Please let me say that I do not consider myself as a know-all pilot dude,
and want to simply add and share my experience re spins and a 52.
To accidentally get into a flat spin, and in particular, a inverted
accelerating flat spin was a situation that I never wanted to find myself
in.
So what if screwed up and fell off the top of a stall turn and ended up in a
inverted spin.
I decided to speak to a guy here in Australia that runs a school teaching
aerobatics and emergency recovery techniques from unusual attitudes.
We spent one whole evening discussing stalls of all forms and flight
envelopes and so on. What happens when we lose the relative air and at what
angle and so on.
We also explored the theory of the Beggs Meuller spin recovery techniques.
There were about 12 of us that attended that evening and it was worth every
single cent.
So to the practical side the next day. I was asked what I was particularly
interested in doing and expressed my interest in flat spin recovery
including accelerating inverted flat spin.
Up we went and the guy had a play with the 52 and then asked me to
demonstrate a few various aerobatic maneuvers including a spin to the left
and a spin to the right.
We then climbed to about 6500 over the gulf and the man put the 52 into a
inverted spin and demonstrated the B&M recovery technique.
Back to 6500 and I was asked to recover the 52 from a accelerating inverted
spin applying the B&M recovery technique.
I had to do that a number of times and then applying the same techniques,
recover from various nasty spins.
Please believe me, I have no intentions or desire to perform these maneuvers
at any stage, and undertook this instruction so as gain a better
understanding and to be able to hopefully help myself should I ever
advertently get into trouble.
Many of us where skeptical of the Beggs Meuller spin recovery techniques.
Unfounded skepticism as it works for a conventional type of aircraft every
time.
It worked for the 52, CJ6, Pitts, RV6 and I think for the Chipmunk that was
also there.
Please remember. Height is safety.
At 4000 ft and 90 knots we increased the power, increased the angle of bank
and went into a steep turn and pulled backstick and it let go rather
viciously.
We did this at circuit speed with it all hanging out and let the speed drop
off a tad, pulled a little too much backstick whilst in a bank and ended up
in strife.
Had that been at circuit height, we would have been in deep trouble.
Much like pulling too much backstick on the top of a loop, it will flick.
Some of this is common knowledge, but it sure brings one back to earth when
someone demonstrates this and what happens when we lose the relative air, in
any situation.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris Wise.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:03 PM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
Years ago I taught college AF, Navy and Marine ROTC cadets how to fly. One
guy in particular was pretty sharp and wound up instructing on T-38's. He
was killed in short order by a student who stalled and snapped the aircraft
in the pattern. I gave another guy a BFR about a year ago who had also
instructed on T-38's. Had some pretty good stories.
I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying slow in different
configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how an airplane will
behave in those situations you'd rather avoid. Sensitizes the hind quarters
and earballs, encourages proper movement of hands and feet. It won't
prevent the diversion induced unexpected tho it makes folks more aware of
the possibilities and consequences so more likely to practice avoidance.
Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right airplane, but in and
of themselves don't really expose folks (usually) to the kinds of situations
that lead to the unexpected. -52's are very docile aircraft, usually, but I
m not going to spin one. I'll take the word of folks like Richard Goode and
the unfortunate experiences of those who've been killed in them (including a
friend of mine) to heart. Learning at least basic aerobatics is good, too.
Opens the envelope. We are so fortunate that these airplanes became
available when they did and at reasonable prices so standard issue
folks/aging boomers could join up to do the kind of flying the airplanes
were built to do. Not readily available elsewhere on the civilian market.
T-34's, T-6's, T-28's etc are a bit pricey for most of us. Glad to see that
others, RV's etc have joined in the fun.
BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito doing a fly by
that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll, inverted stall/spin,
flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent power reduction. Almost
looks intentional and almost recovered. Not pretty. I presume the pilot
was an otherwise experienced and sharp sort.
The -52 spin article is worth making more widely available--why don't you to
post to the list? In fact I think I'll post this whole discussion.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Me neither. Recognizing and breaking it before it develops is my intention
and plan. You can learn to recognize it by going out an flying the aircraft
on the edge of the stall in clean and dirty configurations. I've seen more
than once the results of an accelerated stall/ spin on base final in the
T-38 and F-5. Both do not like slow, hi angle of attach whether it be pitch
or bank, and cross control. She snap roll into a spin in a heart beat in the
dirty configuration. I expect the same from our trainers too. The higher you
climb up the curve of the graft, the more likely to be rewarded with and
unpleasant reward.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: Spins
Haven't flown a -50, but -52's are very sweet handling and docile airplanes,
tho not quite as docile as a Nanchang. Nevertheless, I have no desire or
intentions of ever flat spinning one.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
No the spin study came from the Univ of Tenn. It is posted on Dennis
Savarese's website. www.yakworld.com I also heard about it from Sergie. How
he knew about it, I do not remembers since that conversation took place
about 7 or 8 years ago.
The YAK does a great job of talking to you before she breaks and can prevent
it by quickly neutralizing the controls and decreasing the AOA. At least
that has been my experience to date. I have not taken her up and done dirty
breaks with her. Guess I need to do that.
Fly safe.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Spins
Interesting. Did you get that from the RPA web site?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Thanks Jerry. I'm still lurking and watching with interest some of the
responses. Some are taking way too much personal and not considering that
there is a lot to be learned from this unfortunate accident that was totally
preventable. But in the military, that is what we do, analyze the mistakes
of the incident or accident pilot or pilots at each quarterly safety meeting
There is always time for improvement in what we do or suffer the
consequences of the mistakes. We are not at war and we are not trying to
recover for sortie re-armament/regeneration. There is nothing wrong with
going around if the runway cannot be lined up without dangerous over
correction.
My heart and prayers go out to these pilots and their families. The sad
thing is this was preventable I'm sure. Guess I'm being prejudge mental
before the NTSB finishes its yearlong investigation. On AD, it takes 30 days
to arrive at an answer.
As for the use of power to recover, I agree but be sure to decrease the AOA
along with avoiding cross control during the recovery if low and slow. I
will enclose the spin study done a Vandy on the YAK-52. Not sure how it
stacks up for the CJ since I have never flown one.
Fly safe,
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Spins
Hi Doc--
Glad to see you're still lurking. And thanks. Some interesting posts about
using power for sharper recovery etc--probably way above the pay grade of
most of us, but good info. Just don't try it at home without proper parental
supervision, eh?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: Spins
Jerry,
Well said. In your last post.
Doc
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Sorry, the more you emphasize how you feel about it Jerry, the more I am
going to reply and keep saying that I disagree and honestly think my
point of view is just as meaningful and valid as yours is. I have no
question in my mind that anyone who reads what we both have written is
aware of the two widely divergent points of view. So what do we have to
gain by continuing to write about it? I have no problem with spin
avoidance training. You seem to be bound and determined to influence as
many people as you can from getting spin training. I just don't get it.
While you say that spin and aerobatic training "opens the envelope",
everywhere else in your posting you advocate against it, at least IMHO.
Anyone that has been exposed to flying long enough accumulates stories.
Telling them over a cold beer is a very important and fun part of what
flying is all about. I am not going to debate specifics concerning
every accident story on the planet, so I will not address the ones you
mention.
So... You say: "I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying
slow in different configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how
an airplane will behave in those situations you'd rather avoid."
How in the world are you going to learn how an aircraft will behave in a
situation you would rather avoid, by never experiencing what it is you
trying to avoid? To me, that is like saying: In order to avoid
skidding around in circles driving in your car when it snows, simply
either don't drive in the snow, or if you do, drive slow enough so that
you will never skid. When I was a kid, my Dad took me to a BIG parking
lot after a good snow. We went skidding and sliding all over the place.
Had a ball doing it too. In the end I learned how to steer into a skid,
learned how to not just JAM ON THE BRAKES AND HOLD THEM to avoid sliding
into another car, etc., etc. This skill set saved my butt many times
when driving in the snow. This is an EXACT analogy to the present
topic. A person can either learn to drive a car right up to the point
where a skid is probably going to occur, and stop right there and hope
it never goes beyond that point... Or he or she can learn by doing.
That said, you can learn how to fly an airplane the way you say, and
hope to JESUS that nothing ever comes up that distracts you, or the
airplane is rigged wrong, or you accidentally get into wake turbulence,
WHATEVER... Point being, you never EVER get into a situation where the
airplane is in a position and/or situation that you never have been in
before and have no freaking idea how to get out of, ..... Or, you can
realize that an airplane has the capability to do a whole lot more than
what you learned as a private pilot, and it might be a good idea to
prepare yourself for that kind of situation should it ever occur. The
first method builds a fear of the unknown, that is simple human nature.
The second method builds confidence in ones self and in the airplane.
You said: " Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right
airplane "
The list of aircraft that are approved for spins is much higher than the
number that are not. A Cessna 172 is approved for spins. If the
airplane that you fly is approved for spins, you should be taught spins
in that aircraft. Later on you can branch out and spin something like a
PITTS and do the whole spin regimen. I.E. Upright, inverted, flat, etc.
You said: " Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right
airplane, but in and of themselves don't really expose folks (usually)
to the kinds of situations that lead to the unexpected. "
I have no problem with that statement. This is not an EITHER // OR
situation. Of course I advocate spin avoidance! Who would not,
especially in the pattern! However.... While doing spin training does
not expose a pilot to the kinds of situations that lead to the
unexpected (as you say), not doing spin training leaves a pilot totally
unprepared for what happens AFTER the unexpected manages to somehow
happen. Why do you think CFI's have to be taught spins as a matter of
FAA requirements?
You said: " -52's are very docile aircraft, usually, but I m not going
to spin one "
Then I would strongly advise that when you do fly a 52, that you keep it
perfectly within the confines of what is defined as "non-aerobatic
flight". No bank angles beyond 60 degrees for example. No rolls, no
loops. Etc., etc. However, the YAK-52 was built as an aerobatic
trainer. Most owners of them are going to want to do something other
than fly straight and level. When someone of your skill and experience
says: "I am not going to spin a YAK-52" that kind of gives the
lay-person the sense that there must be something inherently dangerous
about doing a spin in a YAK-52, and as such ... They should be avoided
at all costs. This is simply not the case.
You then go further by saying: " I'll take the word of folks like
Richard Goode and the unfortunate experiences of those who've been
killed in them (including a friend of mine) to heart."
You are quoting Richard Goode TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT and that is wrong.
Richard Goode never once said not to spin a YAK-52. What he DID say is
that if you do spin one, you should be well aware of some of the special
characteristics of this airplane, and you should get that spin training
with a totally qualified instructor in this particular make and model.
This is good advice for ANY kind of training in ANY kind of aircraft!
Lastly, as you and anyone else with any real history in aviation knows,
people have been killed in just about every make and model of aircraft
made. Some die in spins because they are improperly trained, or are
with poor instructors, and some fly a perfectly good airplane right into
a mountain, or run them out of gas, etc. etc. The list is endless. Do
not try to imply some kind of inherent additional danger regarding spins
as compared to any other aspect of flying that is not done correctly.
We all know that a careless and/or reckless approach to flying is
inherently dangerous whether it be spins, or simply taxing across the
flight line.
Quote: " Learning at least basic aerobatics is good, too. Opens the
envelope."
Completely agree.
Quote: " Glad to see that others, RV's etc have joined in the fun "
The IAC is even thinking about including them in a special aerobatic
category for the same exact reason. Of course, that means you have to
learn how to spin one.
You comment: "BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito
doing a fly by that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll,
inverted stall/spin, flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent
power reduction. Almost looks intentional and almost recovered. Not
pretty. I presume the pilot was an otherwise experienced and sharp
sort."
And your point is? Scott Crossfield flew right into a thunderstorm and
died. Bob Hoover crashed after some idiot filled his airplane with
JET-A after an airshow. The lead pilot of the Thunderbirds flew his
whole team into the deck and killed every one of them during practice
some years ago. Recently during a section flight in this area, lead got
too slow during a formation approach and a young low time pilot stalled
and spun in while flying on his wing. Some of the very best pilots on
this planet have crashed and/or died from a momentary lapse of judgment.
What exact point is made by that? Flying can be dangerous?
Lastly you said: " The -52 spin article is worth making more widely
available--why don't you to post to the list? In fact I think I'll post
this whole discussion. "
First,..... part of that discussion you decided to make public
specifically mentioned the recent crash in Texas, and we have been asked
not to discuss that in public, so I am removing that from my message
string here. Second, .....in most circles it is considered to be not in
the best of taste to participate in a private email discussion (where
the rules about what we should or should not discuss in public do not
apply) and then take that conversation and post it for the whole world
to see. Especially without asking all the other participants first.
Sorry if that sounds like a lecture, but I know that when someone does
that to me, it really makes me angry. Others don't care at all.... But
I believe it is better to be safe than sorry when taking a private
conversation public.
Back to the main topic. I think we might BOTH agree that spin
prevention is a good idea. Can we not also agree that Spin Training is
equally as important to create the best blend in total pilot training?
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:34 PM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
Years ago I taught college AF, Navy and Marine ROTC cadets how to fly.
One guy in particular was pretty sharp and wound up instructing on
T-38's. He was killed in short order by a student who stalled and
snapped the aircraft in the pattern. I gave another guy a BFR about a
year ago who had also instructed on T-38's. Had some pretty good
stories.
I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying slow in different
configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how an airplane will
behave in those situations you'd rather avoid. Sensitizes the hind
quarters and earballs, encourages proper movement of hands and feet. It
won't prevent the diversion induced unexpected tho it makes folks more
aware of the possibilities and consequences so more likely to practice
avoidance.
Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right airplane, but in
and of themselves don't really expose folks (usually) to the kinds of
situations that lead to the unexpected. -52's are very docile aircraft,
usually, but I m not going to spin one. I'll take the word of folks like
Richard Goode and the unfortunate experiences of those who've been
killed in them (including a friend of mine) to heart. Learning at least
basic aerobatics is good, too.
Opens the envelope. We are so fortunate that these airplanes became
available when they did and at reasonable prices so standard issue
folks/aging boomers could join up to do the kind of flying the airplanes
were built to do. Not readily available elsewhere on the civilian
market.
T-34's, T-6's, T-28's etc are a bit pricey for most of us. Glad to see
that others, RV's etc have joined in the fun.
BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito doing a fly
by that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll, inverted
stall/spin, flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent power
reduction. Almost looks intentional and almost recovered. Not pretty.
I presume the pilot was an otherwise experienced and sharp sort.
The -52 spin article is worth making more widely available--why don't
you to post to the list? In fact I think I'll post this whole
discussion.
JP
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09 |
The correct web site is www.yak-52.com
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: SRGraham
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09
Hi Roger,
I get a UK phone company at yakworld.com, so is this the correct
website for
Dennis
Savareses website. www.yakworld.com??
Stewart G
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak-List
Digest
Server
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 6:59 PM
To: Yak-List Digest List
Subject: Yak-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/12/09
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
version
of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
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hapter
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======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Yak-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 01/12/09: 11
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (A. Dennis
Savarese)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
3. 04:53 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (A. Dennis
Savarese)
4. 05:17 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge
(nc69666@aol.com)
6. 08:37 AM - 300 nm range restriction (Barry Hancock)
7. 09:10 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Peter K. Van
Staagen)
9. 12:17 PM - Re: strange behaviour pressure gauge (Jan Mevis)
10. 07:36 PM - Re: Spins (Jerry Painter)
11. 09:21 PM - Re Spins Yak 52 (Chris Wise)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 04:17:00 AM PST US
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both
the
front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20
degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s
any
correlation, but the needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is
now in the other half of the instrument (at the side of the emergency
pressure indicator) at about two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is
still
at the normal 60 kg/cm=B2. The aircraft was last flown at the end
of
december 2008, just before the extremely cold weather. And at that
time
everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle
moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The
amount
of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond
with
a presence of about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit (quite normal in
my
Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was
again at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the
same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock.
Although
the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal,
because
we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 04:46:33 AM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Yes, we checked, and the rear instrument was more or less
=93normal=94
(but
low).
I start to think that the problem must be due to enclosed humidity.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:15
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both
the
front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis <mailto:jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
degrees
celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s any
correlation,
but the
needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other
half
of
the instrument (at the side of the emergency pressure indicator) at
about
two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60
kg/cm=B2.
The
aircraft was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the
extremely cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back
to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The amount
of
motion
to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with a
presence of
about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit (quite normal in my Yak 50
after
some
time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was
again
at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the
needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock. Although
the
pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because we
could
start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 04:53:36 AM PST US
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Ahhhh. Based on that, I think you have 2 instruments (one in the 50
and
one in the 52) that are not operating correctly in the very cold
weather. You may try warming the instruments slowly with a hair dryer
and see if the pressure reading drops back to "normal".
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Yes, we checked, and the rear instrument was more or less
=93normal=94
(but low).
I start to think that the problem must be due to enclosed humidity.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:15
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both
the front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading
the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20
degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s
any
correlation, but the needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is
now in the other half of the instrument (at the side of the emergency
pressure indicator) at about two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is
still
at the normal 60 kg/cm=B2. The aircraft was last flown at the end
of
december 2008, just before the extremely cold weather. And at that
time
everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle
moved back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock.
The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was
again at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the
same hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this
52, the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively
normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.m
atronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhtt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 05:17:29 AM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thanks, will try that !
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:52
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Ahhhh. Based on that, I think you have 2 instruments (one in the 50
and
one
in the 52) that are not operating correctly in the very cold weather.
You
may try warming the instruments slowly with a hair dryer and see if
the
pressure reading drops back to "normal".
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis <mailto:jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Yes, we checked, and the rear instrument was more or less
=93normal=94
(but
low).
I start to think that the problem must be due to enclosed humidity.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 13:15
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
Since you have a 52 exhibiting the same symptom, did you check both
the
front and rear instruments in the 52 and if so are they reading the
same?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis <mailto:jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=92ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
degrees
celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=92t know if there=92s any
correlation,
but the
needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other
half
of
the instrument (at the side of the emergency pressure indicator) at
about
two o=92clock. Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60
kg/cm=B2.
The
aircraft was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the
extremely cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back
to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=92clock. The amount
of
motion
to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with a
presence of
about 30 kg/cm=B2 in the main circuit (quite normal in my Yak 50
after
some
time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
was
again
at two o=92clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the
needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=92clock. Although
the
pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because we
could
start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 08:04:40 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
From: nc69666@aol.com
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters
the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found the
opening w
ith a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of brass..
What I
did was to take a very fine probe and worked the blockage out ot the
openin
g, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument so when I
loosened the
obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the debris out of the
opening..
It has worked fine ever since..
Gary=C2-=C2- CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe (-20
de
grees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if there=99s an
y correlation, but the needle of the main pressure gauge in my Yak 50
is now
in the other half of the instrument (at the side of the emergency
pressure
indicator) at about two o=99clock. Emergency pressure is still at
the
normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. =C2-The aircraft was last flown at the
end of decem
ber 2008, just before the extremely cold weather. And at that time
everythin
g was normal.
=C2-
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back t
o the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The amount
of
motion to the left of the needle when depleting could correspond with
a pres
ence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main c
ircuit (quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
=C2-
I =C2-charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corre
sponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main pressure
=C2-was ag
ain at two o=99clock.
=C2-
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hanga
r we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52, the
needle
of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock. Although the
pres
sure on this aircraft must have been relatively normal, because we
could sta
rt it without difficulties.
=C2-
Has anyone seen this before ?
=C2-
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
-= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
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-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:37:55 AM PST US
From: Barry Hancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Subject: Yak-List: 300 nm range restriction
Hey Skip,
I believe this was covered a few months back on the list, but
essentially if you go to the EAAWB web site they will give you a step
by step. With the memorandum in hand you can apply for an addendum
to your existing Operating Limitations, or have new one's issued.
We've been successful in doing both with the local FSDO. As always,
the more educated you are the smoother the process will go.
Here's an excerpt from the EAAWB release in '07
How to obtain the letter of deviation:
Former military aircraft receiving initial experimental exhibition
(FAR 21.191(d)) certification from today forward, need to present the
September 11, 2007 FAA Memorandum to their FSDO in order to be exempt
from the 300/600-mile proficiency flight area limitation. The next
change to FAA Order 8130.2(F) will contain the elimination of this
requirement, but in the meantime, this FAA Memorandum is the
authority to remove the proficiency flight area limitation on their
operating limitations.
All former military experimental exhibition aircraft in Groups I, II,
and III currently operating and with the flight proficiency 300/600
mile limitations on their operating limitations must continue to
operate under the issued limitations until such time they get their
operating limitations updated from their local FSDO.
All former military experimental exhibition aircraft owners can
immediately apply to their local FSDO to amend their operating
limitations to eliminate the 300/600-mile flight proficiency area
limitation. Once amended, they will no longer have a proficiency
flight area limitation. When submitting the request to the FSDO to
drop the proficiency area limitation, owners should:
Submit a cover letter to their local FSDO=97=93Request the
operating
limitations issued to TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, N-NUMBER, be updated to
eliminate the proficiency flight area limitation per FAA Memorandum,
subject: Deviation to Order 8130.2, dated September 11, 2007, from
Frank Paskiewicz, Manager AIR-200. FAA headquarters, AFS-800, and
AIR-200 have approved that this operating limitation change request
will be processed per FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 27b(6), and no
aircraft certification inspection is required for this paperwork
change.=94
The owners need to attach the following to their letter:
(1) A completed FAA Form 8130-6 http://forms.faa.gov/forms/
faa8130-6d.pdf; and
(2) A copy of their current operating limitations (not the original);
and
(3) A copy of their aircraft registration (not the original); and
(4) A copy of the FAA Memorandum from AIR-200.
As a note, once the local FSDO office is ready to update the
operating limitations, the owners can expect to go to that office and
exchange their old operating limitations for a new set (face to face).
The mailing addresses for local FSDOs is at: http://www.faa.gov/about/
office_org/field_offices/fsdo/
Good luck!
Barry
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 09:10:22 AM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thank you all for the ideas.
So, the different possibilities:
- Frozen water in the lines; if that is the case, the problem
should disappear after warming up the aircraft (we=99ll put a
small bathroom heater with thermostate inside the cockpits to check,
since it is still way too cold here);
- An obstruction at the entrance of the gauges; if the first
option does not work, we=99ll take the gauges out to verify the
orifice at the entrance;
- Gauges severely damaged in one way or another (apparently
they have seen cracked up gauges in Russia in times of extreme cold) ,
in which case they have to be replaced.
As soon as I have a conclusive result, I=99ll inform the list. It
will be interesting to see if both the Yak 50 and the Yak 52 have the
same diagnosis.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nc69666@aol.com
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 17:03
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found
the
opening with a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of
brass.. What I did was to take a very fine probe and worked the
blockage
out ot the opening, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument
so
when I loosened the obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the
debris out of the opening.. It has worked fine ever since..
Gary CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20 degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if
there=99s any correlation, but the needle of the main pressure
gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half of the instrument (at the
side of the emergency pressure indicator) at about two o=99clock.
Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. The
aircraft
was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the extremely
cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main
circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main
pressure
was again at two o=99clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively
normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
://forums.matronics.com
lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations FREE while you
browse.
<http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000022
> Start Listening Now!
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 09:49:44 AM PST US
From: "Peter K. Van Staagen" <petervs@knology.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
My guess is that water has collected in the gauge, frozen, bent the
diaphragm.
Pete
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__
----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thank you all for the ideas.
So, the different possibilities:
- Frozen water in the lines; if that is the case, the problem
should disappear after warming up the aircraft (we=99ll put a
small bathroom heater with thermostate inside the cockpits to check,
since it is still way too cold here);
- An obstruction at the entrance of the gauges; if the first
option does not work, we=99ll take the gauges out to verify the
orifice at the entrance;
- Gauges severely damaged in one way or another (apparently
they have seen cracked up gauges in Russia in times of extreme cold) ,
in which case they have to be replaced.
As soon as I have a conclusive result, I=99ll inform the list. It
will be interesting to see if both the Yak 50 and the Yak 52 have the
same diagnosis.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nc69666@aol.com
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 17:03
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found
the
opening with a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of
brass.. What I did was to take a very fine probe and worked the
blockage
out ot the opening, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument
so
when I loosened the obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the
debris out of the opening.. It has worked fine ever since..
Gary CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20 degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if
there=99s any correlation, but the needle of the main pressure
gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half of the instrument (at the
side of the emergency pressure indicator) at about two o=99clock.
Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. The
aircraft
was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the extremely
cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main
circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main
pressure
was again at two o=99clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively
normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
://forums.matronics.com
lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations FREE while you
browse.
<http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000022
> Start Listening Now!
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 12:17:12 PM PST US
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
In that case, I=99ll have to replace it. I=99ll verify asap.
Thanks!
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter K. Van
Staagen
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 18:44
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Jan,
My guess is that water has collected in the gauge, frozen, bent the
diaphragm.
Pete
__|__
__|__ ----=(*)=---- __|__
----=(*)=---- __|__ ----=(*)=----
----=(*)=----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Thank you all for the ideas.
So, the different possibilities:
- Frozen water in the lines; if that is the case, the problem
should disappear after warming up the aircraft (we=99ll put a
small bathroom heater with thermostate inside the cockpits to check,
since it is still way too cold here);
- An obstruction at the entrance of the gauges; if the first
option does not work, we=99ll take the gauges out to verify the
orifice at the entrance;
- Gauges severely damaged in one way or another (apparently
they have seen cracked up gauges in Russia in times of extreme cold) ,
in which case they have to be replaced.
As soon as I have a conclusive result, I=99ll inform the list. It
will be interesting to see if both the Yak 50 and the Yak 52 have the
same diagnosis.
Jan Mevis
YK50 RA2005K
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nc69666@aol.com
Sent: maandag 12 januari 2009 17:03
Subject: Re: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
Remove the pressure gauge and check the orface where the air pressure
enters the instrument, I had a similular occurance on my CJ, I found
the
opening with a small amount of corrision in the opening, It is made of
brass.. What I did was to take a very fine probe and worked the
blockage
out ot the opening, there was some pressure trapped in the instrument
so
when I loosened the obstruction, the pressure in the gauge blew the
debris out of the opening.. It has worked fine ever since..
Gary CJ N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Yak-List: strange behaviour pressure gauge
We=99ve had some unusually cold weather here in Western Europe
(-20 degrees celsius in Namur, Belgium). I don=99t know if
there=99s any correlation, but the needle of the main pressure
gauge in my Yak 50 is now in the other half of the instrument (at the
side of the emergency pressure indicator) at about two o=99clock.
Emergency pressure is still at the normal 60 kg/cm=C2=B2. The
aircraft
was last flown at the end of december 2008, just before the extremely
cold weather. And at that time everything was normal.
I have depleted the main pressure system completely. The needle moved
back to the left a little, and stopped at about 11 o=99clock. The
amount of motion to the left of the needle when depleting could
correspond with a presence of about 30 kg/cm=C2=B2 in the main
circuit
(quite normal in my Yak 50 after some time).
I charged again until I heard the relief valve. I know that this
corresponds with 50 kg/cm=C2=B2, but the needle of the main
pressure
was again at two o=99clock.
Of course the instrument may be broken, but even stranger: in the same
hangar we have a Yak 52 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON. In this 52,
the needle of the main pressure is also at about two o=99clock.
Although the pressure on this aircraft must have been relatively
normal,
because we could start it without difficulties.
Has anyone seen this before ?
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
://forums.matronics.com
lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations FREE while you
browse.
<http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000022
> Start Listening Now!
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 07:36:37 PM PST US
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
Years ago I taught college AF, Navy and Marine ROTC cadets how to fly.
One
guy in particular was pretty sharp and wound up instructing on T-38's.
He
was killed in short order by a student who stalled and snapped the
aircraft
in the pattern. I gave another guy a BFR about a year ago who had also
instructed on T-38's. Had some pretty good stories.
I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying slow in
different
configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how an airplane will
behave in those situations you'd rather avoid. Sensitizes the hind
quarters
and earballs, encourages proper movement of hands and feet. It won't
prevent the diversion induced unexpected tho it makes folks more aware
of
the possibilities and consequences so more likely to practice
avoidance.
Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right airplane, but in
and
of themselves don't really expose folks (usually) to the kinds of
situations
that lead to the unexpected. -52's are very docile aircraft, usually,
but I
m not going to spin one. I'll take the word of folks like Richard
Goode and
the unfortunate experiences of those who've been killed in them
(including a
friend of mine) to heart. Learning at least basic aerobatics is good,
too.
Opens the envelope. We are so fortunate that these airplanes became
available when they did and at reasonable prices so standard issue
folks/aging boomers could join up to do the kind of flying the
airplanes
were built to do. Not readily available elsewhere on the civilian
market.
T-34's, T-6's, T-28's etc are a bit pricey for most of us. Glad to see
that
others, RV's etc have joined in the fun.
BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito doing a fly
by
that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll, inverted
stall/spin,
flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent power reduction.
Almost
looks intentional and almost recovered. Not pretty. I presume the
pilot
was an otherwise experienced and sharp sort.
The -52 spin article is worth making more widely available--why don't
you to
post to the list? In fact I think I'll post this whole discussion.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Me neither. Recognizing and breaking it before it develops is my
intention
and plan. You can learn to recognize it by going out an flying the
aircraft
on the edge of the stall in clean and dirty configurations. Ive seen
more
than once the results of an accelerated stall/ spin on base final in
the
T-38 and F-5. Both do not like slow, hi angle of attach whether it be
pitch
or bank, and cross control. She snap roll into a spin in a heart beat
in the
dirty configuration. I expect the same from our trainers too. The
higher you
climb up the curve of the graft, the more likely to be rewarded with
and
unpleasant reward.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: Spins
Haven't flown a -50, but -52's are very sweet handling and docile
airplanes,
tho not quite as docile as a Nanchang. Nevertheless, I have no desire
or
intentions of ever flat spinning one.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
No the spin study came from the Univ of Tenn. It is posted on Dennis
Savareses website. www.yakworld.com I also heard about it from Sergie.
How
he knew about it, I do not remembers since that conversation took
place
about 7 or 8 years ago.
The YAK does a great job of talking to you before she breaks and can
prevent
it by quickly neutralizing the controls and decreasing the AOA. At
least
that has been my experience to date. I have not taken her up and done
dirty
breaks with her. Guess I need to do that.
Fly safe.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Spins
Interesting. Did you get that from the RPA web site?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Thanks Jerry. Im still lurking and watching with interest some of the
responses. Some are taking way too much personal and not considering
that
there is a lot to be learned from this unfortunate accident that was
totally
preventable. But in the military, that is what we do, analyze the
mistakes
of the incident or accident pilot or pilots at each quarterly safety
meeting
There is always time for improvement in what we do or suffer the
consequences of the mistakes. We are not at war and we are not trying
to
recover for sortie re-armament/regeneration. There is nothing wrong
with
going around if the runway cannot be lined up without dangerous over
correction.
My heart and prayers go out to these pilots and their families. The
sad
thing is this was preventable Im sure. Guess Im being prejudge mental
before the NTSB finishes its yearlong investigation. On AD, it takes
30 days
to arrive at an answer.
As for the use of power to recover, I agree but be sure to decrease
the AOA
along with avoiding cross control during the recovery if low and slow.
I
will enclose the spin study done a Vandy on the YAK-52. Not sure how
it
stacks up for the CJ since I have never flown one.
Fly safe,
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Spins
Hi Doc--
Glad to see you're still lurking. And thanks. Some interesting posts
about
using power for sharper recovery etc--probably way above the pay grade
of
most of us, but good info. Just don't try it at home without proper
parental
supervision, eh?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: Spins
Jerry,
Well said. In your last post.
Doc
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 09:21:54 PM PST US
From: "Chris Wise" <wise@txc.net.au>
Subject: Yak-List: Re Spins Yak 52
I was fortunate to own a half share in a Yak 52 and had some very good
aerobatic guys help sharpen my aero's.
Please let me say that I do not consider myself as a know-all pilot
dude,
and want to simply add and share my experience re spins and a 52.
To accidentally get into a flat spin, and in particular, a inverted
accelerating flat spin was a situation that I never wanted to find
myself
in.
So what if screwed up and fell off the top of a stall turn and ended
up in a
inverted spin.
I decided to speak to a guy here in Australia that runs a school
teaching
aerobatics and emergency recovery techniques from unusual attitudes.
We spent one whole evening discussing stalls of all forms and flight
envelopes and so on. What happens when we lose the relative air and at
what
angle and so on.
We also explored the theory of the Beggs Meuller spin recovery
techniques.
There were about 12 of us that attended that evening and it was worth
every
single cent.
So to the practical side the next day. I was asked what I was
particularly
interested in doing and expressed my interest in flat spin recovery
including accelerating inverted flat spin.
Up we went and the guy had a play with the 52 and then asked me to
demonstrate a few various aerobatic maneuvers including a spin to the
left
and a spin to the right.
We then climbed to about 6500 over the gulf and the man put the 52
into a
inverted spin and demonstrated the B&M recovery technique.
Back to 6500 and I was asked to recover the 52 from a accelerating
inverted
spin applying the B&M recovery technique.
I had to do that a number of times and then applying the same
techniques,
recover from various nasty spins.
Please believe me, I have no intentions or desire to perform these
maneuvers
at any stage, and undertook this instruction so as gain a better
understanding and to be able to hopefully help myself should I ever
advertently get into trouble.
Many of us where skeptical of the Beggs Meuller spin recovery
techniques.
Unfounded skepticism as it works for a conventional type of aircraft
every
time.
It worked for the 52, CJ6, Pitts, RV6 and I think for the Chipmunk
that was
also there.
Please remember. Height is safety.
At 4000 ft and 90 knots we increased the power, increased the angle of
bank
and went into a steep turn and pulled backstick and it let go rather
viciously.
We did this at circuit speed with it all hanging out and let the speed
drop
off a tad, pulled a little too much backstick whilst in a bank and
ended up
in strife.
Had that been at circuit height, we would have been in deep trouble.
Much like pulling too much backstick on the top of a loop, it will
flick.
Some of this is common knowledge, but it sure brings one back to earth
when
someone demonstrates this and what happens when we lose the relative
air, in
any situation.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris Wise.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:03 PM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
Years ago I taught college AF, Navy and Marine ROTC cadets how to fly.
One
guy in particular was pretty sharp and wound up instructing on T-38's.
He
was killed in short order by a student who stalled and snapped the
aircraft
in the pattern. I gave another guy a BFR about a year ago who had also
instructed on T-38's. Had some pretty good stories.
I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying slow in
different
configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how an airplane will
behave in those situations you'd rather avoid. Sensitizes the hind
quarters
and earballs, encourages proper movement of hands and feet. It won't
prevent the diversion induced unexpected tho it makes folks more aware
of
the possibilities and consequences so more likely to practice
avoidance.
Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right airplane, but in
and
of themselves don't really expose folks (usually) to the kinds of
situations
that lead to the unexpected. -52's are very docile aircraft, usually,
but I
m not going to spin one. I'll take the word of folks like Richard
Goode and
the unfortunate experiences of those who've been killed in them
(including a
friend of mine) to heart. Learning at least basic aerobatics is good,
too.
Opens the envelope. We are so fortunate that these airplanes became
available when they did and at reasonable prices so standard issue
folks/aging boomers could join up to do the kind of flying the
airplanes
were built to do. Not readily available elsewhere on the civilian
market.
T-34's, T-6's, T-28's etc are a bit pricey for most of us. Glad to see
that
others, RV's etc have joined in the fun.
BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito doing a fly
by
that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll, inverted
stall/spin,
flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent power reduction.
Almost
looks intentional and almost recovered. Not pretty. I presume the
pilot
was an otherwise experienced and sharp sort.
The -52 spin article is worth making more widely available--why don't
you to
post to the list? In fact I think I'll post this whole discussion.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Me neither. Recognizing and breaking it before it develops is my
intention
and plan. You can learn to recognize it by going out an flying the
aircraft
on the edge of the stall in clean and dirty configurations. I've seen
more
than once the results of an accelerated stall/ spin on base final in
the
T-38 and F-5. Both do not like slow, hi angle of attach whether it be
pitch
or bank, and cross control. She snap roll into a spin in a heart beat
in the
dirty configuration. I expect the same from our trainers too. The
higher you
climb up the curve of the graft, the more likely to be rewarded with
and
unpleasant reward.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: Spins
Haven't flown a -50, but -52's are very sweet handling and docile
airplanes,
tho not quite as docile as a Nanchang. Nevertheless, I have no desire
or
intentions of ever flat spinning one.
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
No the spin study came from the Univ of Tenn. It is posted on Dennis
Savarese's website. www.yakworld.com I also heard about it from
Sergie. How
he knew about it, I do not remembers since that conversation took
place
about 7 or 8 years ago.
The YAK does a great job of talking to you before she breaks and can
prevent
it by quickly neutralizing the controls and decreasing the AOA. At
least
that has been my experience to date. I have not taken her up and done
dirty
breaks with her. Guess I need to do that.
Fly safe.
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Spins
Interesting. Did you get that from the RPA web site?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: RE: Spins
Thanks Jerry. I'm still lurking and watching with interest some of the
responses. Some are taking way too much personal and not considering
that
there is a lot to be learned from this unfortunate accident that was
totally
preventable. But in the military, that is what we do, analyze the
mistakes
of the incident or accident pilot or pilots at each quarterly safety
meeting
There is always time for improvement in what we do or suffer the
consequences of the mistakes. We are not at war and we are not trying
to
recover for sortie re-armament/regeneration. There is nothing wrong
with
going around if the runway cannot be lined up without dangerous over
correction.
My heart and prayers go out to these pilots and their families. The
sad
thing is this was preventable I'm sure. Guess I'm being prejudge
mental
before the NTSB finishes its yearlong investigation. On AD, it takes
30 days
to arrive at an answer.
As for the use of power to recover, I agree but be sure to decrease
the AOA
along with avoiding cross control during the recovery if low and slow.
I
will enclose the spin study done a Vandy on the YAK-52. Not sure how
it
stacks up for the CJ since I have never flown one.
Fly safe,
Doc
From: Jerry Painter [mailto:wild.blue@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Spins
Hi Doc--
Glad to see you're still lurking. And thanks. Some interesting posts
about
using power for sharper recovery etc--probably way above the pay grade
of
most of us, but good info. Just don't try it at home without proper
parental
supervision, eh?
JP
-------Original Message-------
From: Roger Kemp MD
Subject: Spins
Jerry,
Well said. In your last post.
Doc
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
----
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
Message 7
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See attached, pix of my Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX) prototype. The design
is based on tuft testing of airflows and the purpose is to help keep exhaust
fumes down under the fuselage, along with the exhaust tip extensions and stub
fairings I make.
I have begun some flight testing for handling and stability. No CO monitoring yet,
first I want to see if handling has been hurt. On the contrary, no ill effects
have been detected in slow flight or coordinated stalls. Aggravated stalls
and spin tests are next, along with more tuft testing.
One item of note, stalls seem to occur at a higher deck angle than before. I do
not have an AOA gauge. See at at Waycross.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 8
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Beautifully said
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:22 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Spins
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Sorry, the more you emphasize how you feel about it Jerry, the more I am
> going to reply and keep saying that I disagree and honestly think my
> point of view is just as meaningful and valid as yours is. I have no
> question in my mind that anyone who reads what we both have written is
> aware of the two widely divergent points of view. So what do we have to
> gain by continuing to write about it? I have no problem with spin
> avoidance training. You seem to be bound and determined to influence as
> many people as you can from getting spin training. I just don't get it.
> While you say that spin and aerobatic training "opens the envelope",
> everywhere else in your posting you advocate against it, at least IMHO.
>
>
> Anyone that has been exposed to flying long enough accumulates stories.
> Telling them over a cold beer is a very important and fun part of what
> flying is all about. I am not going to debate specifics concerning
> every accident story on the planet, so I will not address the ones you
> mention.
>
> So... You say: "I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying
> slow in different configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how
> an airplane will behave in those situations you'd rather avoid."
>
> How in the world are you going to learn how an aircraft will behave in a
> situation you would rather avoid, by never experiencing what it is you
> trying to avoid? To me, that is like saying: In order to avoid
> skidding around in circles driving in your car when it snows, simply
> either don't drive in the snow, or if you do, drive slow enough so that
> you will never skid. When I was a kid, my Dad took me to a BIG parking
> lot after a good snow. We went skidding and sliding all over the place.
> Had a ball doing it too. In the end I learned how to steer into a skid,
> learned how to not just JAM ON THE BRAKES AND HOLD THEM to avoid sliding
> into another car, etc., etc. This skill set saved my butt many times
> when driving in the snow. This is an EXACT analogy to the present
> topic. A person can either learn to drive a car right up to the point
> where a skid is probably going to occur, and stop right there and hope
> it never goes beyond that point... Or he or she can learn by doing.
>
> That said, you can learn how to fly an airplane the way you say, and
> hope to JESUS that nothing ever comes up that distracts you, or the
> airplane is rigged wrong, or you accidentally get into wake turbulence,
> WHATEVER... Point being, you never EVER get into a situation where the
> airplane is in a position and/or situation that you never have been in
> before and have no freaking idea how to get out of, ..... Or, you can
> realize that an airplane has the capability to do a whole lot more than
> what you learned as a private pilot, and it might be a good idea to
> prepare yourself for that kind of situation should it ever occur. The
> first method builds a fear of the unknown, that is simple human nature.
> The second method builds confidence in ones self and in the airplane.
>
> You said: " Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right
> airplane "
>
> The list of aircraft that are approved for spins is much higher than the
> number that are not. A Cessna 172 is approved for spins. If the
> airplane that you fly is approved for spins, you should be taught spins
> in that aircraft. Later on you can branch out and spin something like a
> PITTS and do the whole spin regimen. I.E. Upright, inverted, flat, etc.
>
> You said: " Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right
> airplane, but in and of themselves don't really expose folks (usually)
> to the kinds of situations that lead to the unexpected. "
>
> I have no problem with that statement. This is not an EITHER // OR
> situation. Of course I advocate spin avoidance! Who would not,
> especially in the pattern! However.... While doing spin training does
> not expose a pilot to the kinds of situations that lead to the
> unexpected (as you say), not doing spin training leaves a pilot totally
> unprepared for what happens AFTER the unexpected manages to somehow
> happen. Why do you think CFI's have to be taught spins as a matter of
> FAA requirements?
>
> You said: " -52's are very docile aircraft, usually, but I m not going
> to spin one "
>
> Then I would strongly advise that when you do fly a 52, that you keep it
> perfectly within the confines of what is defined as "non-aerobatic
> flight". No bank angles beyond 60 degrees for example. No rolls, no
> loops. Etc., etc. However, the YAK-52 was built as an aerobatic
> trainer. Most owners of them are going to want to do something other
> than fly straight and level. When someone of your skill and experience
> says: "I am not going to spin a YAK-52" that kind of gives the
> lay-person the sense that there must be something inherently dangerous
> about doing a spin in a YAK-52, and as such ... They should be avoided
> at all costs. This is simply not the case.
>
> You then go further by saying: " I'll take the word of folks like
> Richard Goode and the unfortunate experiences of those who've been
> killed in them (including a friend of mine) to heart."
>
> You are quoting Richard Goode TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT and that is wrong.
> Richard Goode never once said not to spin a YAK-52. What he DID say is
> that if you do spin one, you should be well aware of some of the special
> characteristics of this airplane, and you should get that spin training
> with a totally qualified instructor in this particular make and model.
> This is good advice for ANY kind of training in ANY kind of aircraft!
> Lastly, as you and anyone else with any real history in aviation knows,
> people have been killed in just about every make and model of aircraft
> made. Some die in spins because they are improperly trained, or are
> with poor instructors, and some fly a perfectly good airplane right into
> a mountain, or run them out of gas, etc. etc. The list is endless. Do
> not try to imply some kind of inherent additional danger regarding spins
> as compared to any other aspect of flying that is not done correctly.
> We all know that a careless and/or reckless approach to flying is
> inherently dangerous whether it be spins, or simply taxing across the
> flight line.
>
> Quote: " Learning at least basic aerobatics is good, too. Opens the
> envelope."
>
> Completely agree.
>
> Quote: " Glad to see that others, RV's etc have joined in the fun "
>
> The IAC is even thinking about including them in a special aerobatic
> category for the same exact reason. Of course, that means you have to
> learn how to spin one.
>
> You comment: "BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito
> doing a fly by that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll,
> inverted stall/spin, flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent
> power reduction. Almost looks intentional and almost recovered. Not
> pretty. I presume the pilot was an otherwise experienced and sharp
> sort."
>
> And your point is? Scott Crossfield flew right into a thunderstorm and
> died. Bob Hoover crashed after some idiot filled his airplane with
> JET-A after an airshow. The lead pilot of the Thunderbirds flew his
> whole team into the deck and killed every one of them during practice
> some years ago. Recently during a section flight in this area, lead got
> too slow during a formation approach and a young low time pilot stalled
> and spun in while flying on his wing. Some of the very best pilots on
> this planet have crashed and/or died from a momentary lapse of judgment.
> What exact point is made by that? Flying can be dangerous?
>
> Lastly you said: " The -52 spin article is worth making more widely
> available--why don't you to post to the list? In fact I think I'll post
> this whole discussion. "
>
> First,..... part of that discussion you decided to make public
> specifically mentioned the recent crash in Texas, and we have been asked
> not to discuss that in public, so I am removing that from my message
> string here. Second, .....in most circles it is considered to be not in
> the best of taste to participate in a private email discussion (where
> the rules about what we should or should not discuss in public do not
> apply) and then take that conversation and post it for the whole world
> to see. Especially without asking all the other participants first.
> Sorry if that sounds like a lecture, but I know that when someone does
> that to me, it really makes me angry. Others don't care at all.... But
> I believe it is better to be safe than sorry when taking a private
> conversation public.
>
> Back to the main topic. I think we might BOTH agree that spin
> prevention is a good idea. Can we not also agree that Spin Training is
> equally as important to create the best blend in total pilot training?
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Painter
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:34 PM
> To: Roger Kemp MD; yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Spins
>
>
> Years ago I taught college AF, Navy and Marine ROTC cadets how to fly.
> One guy in particular was pretty sharp and wound up instructing on
> T-38's. He was killed in short order by a student who stalled and
> snapped the aircraft in the pattern. I gave another guy a BFR about a
> year ago who had also instructed on T-38's. Had some pretty good
> stories.
>
> I'm thoroughly convinced that lots of practice flying slow in different
> configurations/attitudes is the best way to learn how an airplane will
> behave in those situations you'd rather avoid. Sensitizes the hind
> quarters and earballs, encourages proper movement of hands and feet. It
> won't prevent the diversion induced unexpected tho it makes folks more
> aware of the possibilities and consequences so more likely to practice
> avoidance.
> Doing spins is fun and instructive, too, in the right airplane, but in
> and of themselves don't really expose folks (usually) to the kinds of
> situations that lead to the unexpected. -52's are very docile aircraft,
> usually, but I m not going to spin one. I'll take the word of folks like
> Richard Goode and the unfortunate experiences of those who've been
> killed in them (including a friend of mine) to heart. Learning at least
> basic aerobatics is good, too.
> Opens the envelope. We are so fortunate that these airplanes became
> available when they did and at reasonable prices so standard issue
> folks/aging boomers could join up to do the kind of flying the airplanes
> were built to do. Not readily available elsewhere on the civilian
> market.
> T-34's, T-6's, T-28's etc are a bit pricey for most of us. Glad to see
> that others, RV's etc have joined in the fun.
>
> BTW, there is a video on U-Tube of a de Havilland Mosquito doing a fly
> by that winds up in a half-assed pitch up to a half roll, inverted
> stall/spin, flat spin, spin reversal and crash. No apparent power
> reduction. Almost looks intentional and almost recovered. Not pretty.
> I presume the pilot was an otherwise experienced and sharp sort.
>
> The -52 spin article is worth making more widely available--why don't
> you to post to the list? In fact I think I'll post this whole
> discussion.
>
> JP
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
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We have found that about 50% of the all the exhaust coming into the cockpit is
doing so thought the oil cooler inlet and exhaust.
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 4:35 pm
Subject: Yak-List: CJ LERX
See attached, pix of my Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX) prototype. The design
is based on tuft testing of airflows and the purpose is to help keep exhaust
fumes down under the fuselage, along with the exhaust tip extensions and stub
fairings I make.
?
I have begun some flight testing for handling and stability. No CO monitoring yet,
first I want to see if handling has been hurt. On the contrary, no ill effects
have been detected in slow flight or coordinated stalls. Aggravated stalls
and spin tests are next, along with more tuft testing.
?
One item of note, stalls seem to occur at a higher deck angle than before. I do
not have an AOA gauge. See at at Waycross.
?
?
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
?
?
[Image Removed]
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A couple of people had asked how the MiG-23 is going.
Wings are on=2C engine is on the stand. Some test equipment arrived in a s
hipment today... although the Shipping Gorillas really whacked our crate.
I know this is off-topic=2C so I'll keep it short. Photos and more at http
://blog.cwam.org
Jon
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