Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - Re: CJ LERX (Craig Payne)
2. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: CJ LERX (doug sapp)
3. 01:58 PM - Spins redux (Jerry Painter)
4. 03:19 PM - Yak 52 spins-My view (Roger Baker)
5. 05:11 PM - Re: Yak 52 spins-My view (Chris Wise)
6. 06:23 PM - Re: Spins redux (Richard Goode)
7. 09:44 PM - Re: Spins redux (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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>
> We have found that about 50% of the all the exhaust coming into the cockpit is
doing so thought the oil cooler inlet and exhaust
>
Was that with exhaust tip extensions or standard exhaust? Through *much* trial
and error by many of us some years back, numerous infiltration paths were identified.
Lots of CO was coming into the cockpit through holes in the fuselage,
such as in the wheel wells and firewall. The path to the cockit was not a straight
one, lots of flow into the rear fuselage, under-cabin and then up into
the cabin.
Numerous fixes work, extra venting, etc. One problem that remains is the up flow
over the wing roots when the AOA increases. This is an attempt to sort out some
of that flow.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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Guys,
In my experience CO in the cockpit really has more to do with internal
cockpit pressure than anything else. Plugging up the holes helps but your
never going to plug them all. As long as the pressure inside is LESS than
the pressure outside your are going to have infiltration of gasses into the
cockpit.
However if you cause the air pressure inside to EXCEED the pressure outside
and you will stop the problem. To do this you must introduce additional
clean air into the cockpit via ram air or some other method. Sucking air
out of the cockpit via louver in the tail or other venturi device will
reduce the amount of CO but only by "air washing" the cockpit. This is an
effective way to help mitigate the problem in AZ or FL but if you live and
fly in the cooler regions this is not a useful fix for the problem.
Installation of NACA scoops like BJ Kennamore did, feeding high pressure air
to pressurise the cockpit works well. This air could be easily routed to
resistance type heaters, another fix is the installation of a ram air vent
in the gills to feed clean high pressure air to a heat exchanger in the
exhaust system, then into the cockpit. Resistance type aircraft heaters are
available from DC Thermal. Exhaust cabin heaters are found on Yak 52's and
Yak 18T's, some models of Wilga may also work on the 285 hp engines, but I
have no experience with them.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
> >
> > We have found that about 50% of the all the exhaust coming into the
> cockpit is doing so thought the oil cooler inlet and exhaust
> >
>
> Was that with exhaust tip extensions or standard exhaust? Through *much*
> trial and error by many of us some years back, numerous infiltration paths
> were identified. Lots of CO was coming into the cockpit through holes in the
> fuselage, such as in the wheel wells and firewall. The path to the cockit
> was not a straight one, lots of flow into the rear fuselage, under-cabin and
> then up into the cabin.
>
> Numerous fixes work, extra venting, etc. One problem that remains is the up
> flow over the wing roots when the AOA increases. This is an attempt to sort
> out some of that flow.
>
>
> Craig Payne
> cpayne@joimail.com
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 3
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Mark, buddy, pal, friend, amigo, fellow aviator etc etc--
Give me a break--guess I'm not getting this right. Don't misunderstand me.
I've done lots of spins and have given lots of spin training, in lots of
different aircraft types, from lots of different attitudes and entries and
have basic aerobatic skills. I highly encourage getting lots of training,
spins and aerobatics included, more the better, regardless of skill and
experience. After all, that's the business I'm in, wink, wink. But just to
make sure I die in a nice soft, warm bed, surrounded by lots of beautiful,
loving, naked women with big tits, god love 'em, my strategy is to only spin
airplanes I know have demonstrated predictable recoveries using standard
recovery techniques and to make sure that when I spin them they're properly
rigged, loaded and in the right CG range, that's all. -52's, as has been
well documented, do not always exhibit predictable recoveries using standard
recovery techniques, and some -52's, in some modes, may not recover at all.
I'll take Richard Goode's (and others') word on that. Unfortunately, I've
never gotten spin training in a -52. Maybe, one fine day, I'll get an
opportunity to get some good training. I'd like that. Might be a good RPA
exercise. But until then I'm not going to spin a -52. I have no illusions
about my skill or experience level. And I sure don't want to experiment
with power application during recovery until I'm way, way down the curve, if
ever.
Too many pilots way beyond my experience and skill level have been killed
doing spins in -52's and I don't want to join their ranks. Guess I've just
gotten cautious now that I'm approaching dotage.
But, no, I don't want to discourage folks from spinning aircraft, unless
they're of the variety that may not recover predictably (which includes all
of those in the Normal category), especially if their training consists of
the "read about it in a book" or "my buddy told me" or "I read about it on
the Yak-list so it must be OK" or if their experience is of the pitiful
initial CFI spin training variety. If I had a -50, I would spin it, too.
But a -52 is not a -50 or a Citabria or a 172 or a Nanchang. I think we can
agree on that. In fact, I don't think we really disagree about any of this.
The whole point of this discussion was to get proper training, including
spins, right? Good idea. But I don't do spins or spin training in -52's.
Not really sure I'd want to. Just getting old, soft, fat and senile, I
guess. Hooah!
Maybe its all those naked women.
Jerry Painter
Message 4
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| Subject: | Yak 52 spins-My view |
I haven't been reading the Yak List for some time now....my choice.
Yesterday, a friend mentioned to me that there was another of those
discussions going on concerning spins in general....and spins in Yak
52s specifically.
So, I've gotten back on list and have read the thread that culminated
with today's message from Jerry Painter.
Most of the discussion concerns spins, spin recognition, spin
avoidance and the necessity of getting good type specific spin training.
However, from two people have come letters basically hammering the
Yak 52 and its spin characteristics. I think that both of these
people are much more experienced that am I in doing spins in a wide
variety of airplanes, however the experience that I do have in Yak
52s leads me to a far different conclusion than has been reached by
the two of them specifically about Yak 52s.
I began doing acro in the 52 by getting some fine instruction from
Yuri Yeltsov from Almaty, Kazakhstan. Yuri was, more than one time,
all USSR DOSAAF Yak 52 acro champion and had spent years instructing
in the airplane.
In the ten years or so since then, I've flown the 52 around 1100
hours. I've checked out 20 or so people in the airplane and done
spin training for quite a few more. During those hours, I guess I've
spun the airplane at least 1500 times. Those spins would be normal
upright with steep entry, level entry, hammerhead entry; flat spins
and acclerated flat spins....as well as inverted spins. These spins
have been done in at least 15 different airplanes. I'm a heavy guy
and I've done these spins solo, dual with me in the front and a
skinny guy in the back; with me in the back and a skinny person in
the front, etc. etc.
My point in saying all the above is to lay the background for saying
that, in EVERY case, the airplane recovered from the spin EXACTLY as
expected. NOT ONE TIME did the airplane spook me by not doing what I
expected it to do.
From my point of view, people can go into all the spin philosophy
and techno-analysis that they like....but, in my experience, it all
boils down to the fact that the Yak 52 spins predictably and recovers
predictably....every time.
Roger Baker
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 spins-My view |
I totally agree with the article posted by Roger Baker.
Whilst not having the hours that he has in a 52, I have had the pleasure and
joy to own a exceptionally well restored Yak 52.
I now drive a 18 T which is more suited to our needs.
The Yak 52 is a big bang for the buck and is a extremely capable aerobatic
beast.
Properly rigged and in balance, it is a delightful to fly.
Perhaps I am not listening, or not reading all these articles about spins
properly.
We had to be instructed to learn to drive a car, we needed instruction to
learn to fly, hell we got taught and instructed about so much in life.
Surely this thing about spins must come back to receiving the correct
instruction re stalls and spins.
Cripes, we got instruction to do aerobatics.
In talking to people that fly airplanes, I am constantly amazed at how many
have never stalled an airplane, let alone spin an airplane.
To me a spin is a elementary maneuver.
Stalls and spins where a big part of my training, and as such I respect a
stall and a spin.
I believe that every one learning to fly should be taught spin recovery, and
yes, recovery from stalls, stalls and more stalls.
I have no issues with spinning a Yak 52, PROVIDED that the weight and
balance is correct and within the manufacturers parameters.
I do know of a 52 that had issues with recovering from spins, particularly
inverted spins.
It transpired that there where 2 issues that affected the recovery.
1 The original Russian radios, NDB gear etc had been removed and no
replacement compensating weight replaced.
2 The stick position was incorrect.
Once these issues had been addressed, spin recovery became fine, normal and
inverted.
I do not perhaps have the hours that a lot of you obviously have, but tow a
caravan with too much drawbar weight and it raises the front of the tow
vehicle making it unstable to tow.
Surely flying a beast such as a 52 that has the wrong C of G is going to
stuff things up and one way or another upset the spin recovery.
All I am saying is that if the aircraft is "in balance" and the appropriate
training and instruction is in place, I do not see an issue spinning a 52
and executing a normal recovery.
I have spun our 52 on many occasions and have recovered from inverted spins
without any issues at all.
Including applying the Beggs Meuller technique.
Hope my little bit of input helps, but please remember one thing, get the
right training and instruction and keep the 52 inbalance.
The 52 is a great aircraft, but as all things, inexperience, i.e. lack of
training will bite you.
Cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Baker" <f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
>
> I haven't been reading the Yak List for some time now....my choice.
> Yesterday, a friend mentioned to me that there was another of those
> discussions going on concerning spins in general....and spins in Yak
> 52s specifically.
>
> So, I've gotten back on list and have read the thread that culminated
> with today's message from Jerry Painter.
>
> Most of the discussion concerns spins, spin recognition, spin
> avoidance and the necessity of getting good type specific spin training.
>
> However, from two people have come letters basically hammering the
> Yak 52 and its spin characteristics. I think that both of these
> people are much more experienced that am I in doing spins in a wide
> variety of airplanes, however the experience that I do have in Yak
> 52s leads me to a far different conclusion than has been reached by
> the two of them specifically about Yak 52s.
>
> I began doing acro in the 52 by getting some fine instruction from
> Yuri Yeltsov from Almaty, Kazakhstan. Yuri was, more than one time,
> all USSR DOSAAF Yak 52 acro champion and had spent years instructing
> in the airplane.
>
> In the ten years or so since then, I've flown the 52 around 1100
> hours. I've checked out 20 or so people in the airplane and done
> spin training for quite a few more. During those hours, I guess I've
> spun the airplane at least 1500 times. Those spins would be normal
> upright with steep entry, level entry, hammerhead entry; flat spins
> and acclerated flat spins....as well as inverted spins. These spins
> have been done in at least 15 different airplanes. I'm a heavy guy
> and I've done these spins solo, dual with me in the front and a
> skinny guy in the back; with me in the back and a skinny person in
> the front, etc. etc.
>
> My point in saying all the above is to lay the background for saying
> that, in EVERY case, the airplane recovered from the spin EXACTLY as
> expected. NOT ONE TIME did the airplane spook me by not doing what I
> expected it to do.
>
> From my point of view, people can go into all the spin philosophy
> and techno-analysis that they like....but, in my experience, it all
> boils down to the fact that the Yak 52 spins predictably and recovers
> predictably....every time.
>
> Roger Baker
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
Message 6
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Let me make it totally clear.
The Yak 52 will ALLWAYS recover from a spin PROVIDED that the CORRECT
procedures are followed.
BUT,if a spin is well-developed and flat,recovery can be prolonged and not
straight forward.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
+94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:27 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Spins redux
>
> Mark, buddy, pal, friend, amigo, fellow aviator etc etc--
>
> Give me a break--guess I'm not getting this right. Don't misunderstand
> me.
> I've done lots of spins and have given lots of spin training, in lots of
> different aircraft types, from lots of different attitudes and entries and
> have basic aerobatic skills. I highly encourage getting lots of training,
> spins and aerobatics included, more the better, regardless of skill and
> experience. After all, that's the business I'm in, wink, wink. But just
> to
> make sure I die in a nice soft, warm bed, surrounded by lots of beautiful,
> loving, naked women with big tits, god love 'em, my strategy is to only
> spin
> airplanes I know have demonstrated predictable recoveries using standard
> recovery techniques and to make sure that when I spin them they're
> properly
> rigged, loaded and in the right CG range, that's all. -52's, as has been
> well documented, do not always exhibit predictable recoveries using
> standard
> recovery techniques, and some -52's, in some modes, may not recover at
> all.
> I'll take Richard Goode's (and others') word on that. Unfortunately, I've
> never gotten spin training in a -52. Maybe, one fine day, I'll get an
> opportunity to get some good training. I'd like that. Might be a good
> RPA
> exercise. But until then I'm not going to spin a -52. I have no
> illusions
> about my skill or experience level. And I sure don't want to experiment
> with power application during recovery until I'm way, way down the curve,
> if
> ever.
>
> Too many pilots way beyond my experience and skill level have been killed
> doing spins in -52's and I don't want to join their ranks. Guess I've just
> gotten cautious now that I'm approaching dotage.
>
> But, no, I don't want to discourage folks from spinning aircraft, unless
> they're of the variety that may not recover predictably (which includes
> all
> of those in the Normal category), especially if their training consists of
> the "read about it in a book" or "my buddy told me" or "I read about it on
> the Yak-list so it must be OK" or if their experience is of the pitiful
> initial CFI spin training variety. If I had a -50, I would spin it, too.
> But a -52 is not a -50 or a Citabria or a 172 or a Nanchang. I think we
> can
> agree on that. In fact, I don't think we really disagree about any of
> this.
> The whole point of this discussion was to get proper training, including
> spins, right? Good idea. But I don't do spins or spin training in -52's.
> Not really sure I'd want to. Just getting old, soft, fat and senile, I
> guess. Hooah!
>
> Maybe its all those naked women.
>
> Jerry Painter
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
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> dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner
> and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.invictawiz.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
--
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Message 7
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Gee guys,
All this spin talk, I really feel you guys are basically saying the same
thing. It could be that one really needs to be very familiar with the spin
character of his particular type aircraft. If you have a 52, it behooves you
to
know all it's spin modes and recovery techniques, especially if you doing
acro. While the CJ isn't know for pulling such antics, everyone, in all
aircraft, needs to know and understand eminent stall recognition and recovery,
be it
C-150 or Yak 50.
Why? because on every flight every airplane makes an approach to landing,
thus every aircraft inters that area in the pattern, where cross controls, high
AOA, high bank angles at reduced IAS, can be nothing but disastrous.
When doing stalls/spin entries at altitude, most students are not aware of
their altitude lost. There is no real way of judging how fast one is coming
down. Reading the numbers on the altimeter or asking the student to make sure
he recovers to straight & level before a designated altitude, may prove to
the student the realization of how little leeway he/she has in recovering.
Just this afternoon at our B-24/B-17 ground school, the instructor showed
the spin tests of the F-22. That airplane guys don't really spin! It eerily
flops around. First forward, than backward, than a twisting rolling kind of
flat spin. It was the God awful est thing to see. The wind vanes on the nose
probe were at one pointing every which direction. You could hear the
pilot's labored and rapid breathing on the intercom including the a deep sigh
when
the gyrations stopped. I had heart palpitation just watching it!
Good discussion here. I have not done any Yak spins, so their different
modes, and recovery techniques are very interesting to me.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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