Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:49 AM - Re: Yak 52 spins-My view (LawnDart)
2. 09:53 AM - Re: Yak 52 spins-My view (doug sapp)
3. 10:57 AM - Re: CJ LERX (Forrest Johnson)
4. 11:51 AM - Re: Spins redux (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 05:30 PM - Re: Yak 52 spins-My view (Richard Goode)
6. 05:49 PM - Re: Yak 52 spins-My view/OFF TOPIC (Hank Gibson)
7. 06:42 PM - Re: Yak 52 spins-My view/OFF TOPIC (L Starace)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 spins-My view |
+1
Thanks Roger and Chris for commenting and having -52 experience.
My experience has been similar. Over 1000 hrs in -52s, plenty of spins of various
types and entries. Instructed by Sergei and others. All spins have recovered
as expected.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224895#224895
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 spins-My view |
Guys, As you all know I am a CJ driver, and I will admit that I have
never flown in a 52, even as a GIB, so if you respond to this post please
don't kill the messenger, I'm just sharing a conversation with you. Do with
it as you may.
I recently I had the oportunity to talk at length to a high time gent who
started a spin in his 52 at 6500 feet and recovered at less than 500 feet!
His next mission after cleaning his shorts was to find the best Russian
instructor he could find. After 10 hours of dual he came to the following
conclusion about the experience, which IMHO sums up all the past posts by
Richard. Richard would never say it in this manner because Brit's just
don't speak that way. In the 52 owners words: "*If you have not had proper
spin recovery instruction in your 52 you simply do not know what your
talking about, and if you think normal recovery methods will work or if you
think you can teach yourself spin recovery in the 52 you are a fool".
*Strongly worded I must agree, Yankees tend to call a spade a spade
when we
are really "big eyed serious" about a topic. This man was, his 12 year old
son was in the back pit during the 6,000 ft spin.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
>
> I totally agree with the article posted by Roger Baker.
>
> Whilst not having the hours that he has in a 52, I have had the pleasure
> and joy to own a exceptionally well restored Yak 52.
> I now drive a 18 T which is more suited to our needs.
>
> The Yak 52 is a big bang for the buck and is a extremely capable aerobatic
> beast.
> Properly rigged and in balance, it is a delightful to fly.
>
> Perhaps I am not listening, or not reading all these articles about spins
> properly.
> We had to be instructed to learn to drive a car, we needed instruction to
> learn to fly, hell we got taught and instructed about so much in life.
> Surely this thing about spins must come back to receiving the correct
> instruction re stalls and spins.
> Cripes, we got instruction to do aerobatics.
> In talking to people that fly airplanes, I am constantly amazed at how many
> have never stalled an airplane, let alone spin an airplane.
>
> To me a spin is a elementary maneuver.
> Stalls and spins where a big part of my training, and as such I respect a
> stall and a spin.
> I believe that every one learning to fly should be taught spin recovery,
> and yes, recovery from stalls, stalls and more stalls.
>
> I have no issues with spinning a Yak 52, PROVIDED that the weight and
> balance is correct and within the manufacturers parameters.
> I do know of a 52 that had issues with recovering from spins, particularly
> inverted spins.
> It transpired that there where 2 issues that affected the recovery.
> 1 The original Russian radios, NDB gear etc had been removed and no
> replacement compensating weight replaced.
> 2 The stick position was incorrect.
> Once these issues had been addressed, spin recovery became fine, normal and
> inverted.
>
> I do not perhaps have the hours that a lot of you obviously have, but tow a
> caravan with too much drawbar weight and it raises the front of the tow
> vehicle making it unstable to tow.
> Surely flying a beast such as a 52 that has the wrong C of G is going to
> stuff things up and one way or another upset the spin recovery.
> All I am saying is that if the aircraft is "in balance" and the appropriate
> training and instruction is in place, I do not see an issue spinning a 52
> and executing a normal recovery.
> I have spun our 52 on many occasions and have recovered from inverted spins
> without any issues at all.
> Including applying the Beggs Meuller technique.
>
> Hope my little bit of input helps, but please remember one thing, get the
> right training and instruction and keep the 52 inbalance.
> The 52 is a great aircraft, but as all things, inexperience, i.e. lack of
> training will bite you.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Baker" <f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:48 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
>
>
>>
>> I haven't been reading the Yak List for some time now....my choice.
>> Yesterday, a friend mentioned to me that there was another of those
>> discussions going on concerning spins in general....and spins in Yak
>> 52s specifically.
>>
>> So, I've gotten back on list and have read the thread that culminated
>> with today's message from Jerry Painter.
>>
>> Most of the discussion concerns spins, spin recognition, spin
>> avoidance and the necessity of getting good type specific spin training.
>>
>> However, from two people have come letters basically hammering the
>> Yak 52 and its spin characteristics. I think that both of these
>> people are much more experienced that am I in doing spins in a wide
>> variety of airplanes, however the experience that I do have in Yak
>> 52s leads me to a far different conclusion than has been reached by
>> the two of them specifically about Yak 52s.
>>
>> I began doing acro in the 52 by getting some fine instruction from
>> Yuri Yeltsov from Almaty, Kazakhstan. Yuri was, more than one time,
>> all USSR DOSAAF Yak 52 acro champion and had spent years instructing
>> in the airplane.
>>
>> In the ten years or so since then, I've flown the 52 around 1100
>> hours. I've checked out 20 or so people in the airplane and done
>> spin training for quite a few more. During those hours, I guess I've
>> spun the airplane at least 1500 times. Those spins would be normal
>> upright with steep entry, level entry, hammerhead entry; flat spins
>> and acclerated flat spins....as well as inverted spins. These spins
>> have been done in at least 15 different airplanes. I'm a heavy guy
>> and I've done these spins solo, dual with me in the front and a
>> skinny guy in the back; with me in the back and a skinny person in
>> the front, etc. etc.
>>
>> My point in saying all the above is to lay the background for saying
>> that, in EVERY case, the airplane recovered from the spin EXACTLY as
>> expected. NOT ONE TIME did the airplane spook me by not doing what I
>> expected it to do.
>>
>> From my point of view, people can go into all the spin philosophy
>> and techno-analysis that they like....but, in my experience, it all
>> boils down to the fact that the Yak 52 spins predictably and recovers
>> predictably....every time.
>>
>> Roger Baker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 12:00 AM
>
>
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 3
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Craig,
Please email me your mailing address. I need to send a thank you note
for flowers.
Thank you,
Martha Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Payne
To: yak-list
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:35 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ LERX
See attached, pix of my Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX) prototype.
The design is based on tuft testing of airflows and the purpose is to
help keep exhaust fumes down under the fuselage, along with the exhaust
tip extensions and stub fairings I make.
I have begun some flight testing for handling and stability. No CO
monitoring yet, first I want to see if handling has been hurt. On the
contrary, no ill effects have been detected in slow flight or
coordinated stalls. Aggravated stalls and spin tests are next, along
with more tuft testing.
One item of note, stalls seem to occur at a higher deck angle than
before. I do not have an AOA gauge. See at at Waycross.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 4
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Jerry. Here is what Richard said. Exactly.
Let me make it totally clear.
The Yak 52 will ALLWAYS recover from a spin PROVIDED that the CORRECT
procedures are followed.
BUT,if a spin is well-developed and flat,recovery can be prolonged and not
straight forward.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom"
The real question as I saw it between the two of us was simply this: Is spin training
just as important as spin avoidance? To me it is. After that it degenerated
into a discussion of the 52, in particular. Personally, and as long
as I have the right instructor on-board, I would not hesitate to spin it, and
Sergei Boriak has not either and teaches same. I am not trying to change your
personal opinion, or change what you decide to do in life. To do that would
be stupid and a waste of time, plus... it's none of my business. However, my
impression was that you were taking your personal views and recommending that
others follow them as well. If that was not the intent... then I need to end
this right now, which I will.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jerry Painter
Sent: Wed 1/14/2009 4:57 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Spins redux
Mark, buddy, pal, friend, amigo, fellow aviator etc etc--
Give me a break--guess I'm not getting this right. Don't misunderstand me.
I've done lots of spins and have given lots of spin training, in lots of
different aircraft types, from lots of different attitudes and entries and
have basic aerobatic skills. I highly encourage getting lots of training,
spins and aerobatics included, more the better, regardless of skill and
experience. After all, that's the business I'm in, wink, wink. But just to
make sure I die in a nice soft, warm bed, surrounded by lots of beautiful,
loving, naked women with big tits, god love 'em, my strategy is to only spin
airplanes I know have demonstrated predictable recoveries using standard
recovery techniques and to make sure that when I spin them they're properly
rigged, loaded and in the right CG range, that's all. -52's, as has been
well documented, do not always exhibit predictable recoveries using standard
recovery techniques, and some -52's, in some modes, may not recover at all.
I'll take Richard Goode's (and others') word on that. Unfortunately, I've
never gotten spin training in a -52. Maybe, one fine day, I'll get an
opportunity to get some good training. I'd like that. Might be a good RPA
exercise. But until then I'm not going to spin a -52. I have no illusions
about my skill or experience level. And I sure don't want to experiment
with power application during recovery until I'm way, way down the curve, if
ever.
Too many pilots way beyond my experience and skill level have been killed
doing spins in -52's and I don't want to join their ranks. Guess I've just
gotten cautious now that I'm approaching dotage.
But, no, I don't want to discourage folks from spinning aircraft, unless
they're of the variety that may not recover predictably (which includes all
of those in the Normal category), especially if their training consists of
the "read about it in a book" or "my buddy told me" or "I read about it on
the Yak-list so it must be OK" or if their experience is of the pitiful
initial CFI spin training variety. If I had a -50, I would spin it, too.
But a -52 is not a -50 or a Citabria or a 172 or a Nanchang. I think we can
agree on that. In fact, I don't think we really disagree about any of this.
The whole point of this discussion was to get proper training, including
spins, right? Good idea. But I don't do spins or spin training in -52's.
Not really sure I'd want to. Just getting old, soft, fat and senile, I
guess. Hooah!
Maybe its all those naked women.
Jerry Painter
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 spins-My view |
Doug-even in real English,that is totally correct!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone
is +94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
Guys, As you all know I am a CJ driver, and I will admit that I have
never flown in a 52, even as a GIB, so if you respond to this post
please don't kill the messenger, I'm just sharing a conversation with
you. Do with it as you may.
I recently I had the oportunity to talk at length to a high time gent
who started a spin in his 52 at 6500 feet and recovered at less than 500
feet! His next mission after cleaning his shorts was to find the best
Russian instructor he could find. After 10 hours of dual he came to the
following conclusion about the experience, which IMHO sums up all the
past posts by Richard. Richard would never say it in this manner
because Brit's just don't speak that way. In the 52 owners words: "If
you have not had proper spin recovery instruction in your 52 you simply
do not know what your talking about, and if you think normal recovery
methods will work or if you think you can teach yourself spin recovery
in the 52 you are a fool". Strongly worded I must agree, Yankees tend
to call a spade a spade when we are really "big eyed serious" about a
topic. This man was, his 12 year old son was in the back pit during the
6,000 ft spin.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
I totally agree with the article posted by Roger Baker.
Whilst not having the hours that he has in a 52, I have had the
pleasure and joy to own a exceptionally well restored Yak 52.
I now drive a 18 T which is more suited to our needs.
The Yak 52 is a big bang for the buck and is a extremely capable
aerobatic beast.
Properly rigged and in balance, it is a delightful to fly.
Perhaps I am not listening, or not reading all these articles about
spins properly.
We had to be instructed to learn to drive a car, we needed
instruction to learn to fly, hell we got taught and instructed about so
much in life.
Surely this thing about spins must come back to receiving the
correct instruction re stalls and spins.
Cripes, we got instruction to do aerobatics.
In talking to people that fly airplanes, I am constantly amazed at
how many have never stalled an airplane, let alone spin an airplane.
To me a spin is a elementary maneuver.
Stalls and spins where a big part of my training, and as such I
respect a stall and a spin.
I believe that every one learning to fly should be taught spin
recovery, and yes, recovery from stalls, stalls and more stalls.
I have no issues with spinning a Yak 52, PROVIDED that the weight
and balance is correct and within the manufacturers parameters.
I do know of a 52 that had issues with recovering from spins,
particularly inverted spins.
It transpired that there where 2 issues that affected the recovery.
1 The original Russian radios, NDB gear etc had been removed and no
replacement compensating weight replaced.
2 The stick position was incorrect.
Once these issues had been addressed, spin recovery became fine,
normal and inverted.
I do not perhaps have the hours that a lot of you obviously have,
but tow a caravan with too much drawbar weight and it raises the front
of the tow vehicle making it unstable to tow.
Surely flying a beast such as a 52 that has the wrong C of G is
going to stuff things up and one way or another upset the spin recovery.
All I am saying is that if the aircraft is "in balance" and the
appropriate training and instruction is in place, I do not see an issue
spinning a 52 and executing a normal recovery.
I have spun our 52 on many occasions and have recovered from
inverted spins without any issues at all.
Including applying the Beggs Meuller technique.
Hope my little bit of input helps, but please remember one thing,
get the right training and instruction and keep the 52 inbalance.
The 52 is a great aircraft, but as all things, inexperience, i.e.
lack of training will bite you.
Cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Baker"
<f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
<f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
I haven't been reading the Yak List for some time now....my
choice.
Yesterday, a friend mentioned to me that there was another of
those
discussions going on concerning spins in general....and spins in
Yak
52s specifically.
So, I've gotten back on list and have read the thread that
culminated
with today's message from Jerry Painter.
Most of the discussion concerns spins, spin recognition, spin
avoidance and the necessity of getting good type specific spin
training.
However, from two people have come letters basically hammering the
Yak 52 and its spin characteristics. I think that both of these
people are much more experienced that am I in doing spins in a
wide
variety of airplanes, however the experience that I do have in Yak
52s leads me to a far different conclusion than has been reached
by
the two of them specifically about Yak 52s.
I began doing acro in the 52 by getting some fine instruction from
Yuri Yeltsov from Almaty, Kazakhstan. Yuri was, more than one
time,
all USSR DOSAAF Yak 52 acro champion and had spent years
instructing
in the airplane.
In the ten years or so since then, I've flown the 52 around 1100
hours. I've checked out 20 or so people in the airplane and done
spin training for quite a few more. During those hours, I guess
I've
spun the airplane at least 1500 times. Those spins would be
normal
upright with steep entry, level entry, hammerhead entry; flat
spins
and acclerated flat spins....as well as inverted spins. These
spins
have been done in at least 15 different airplanes. I'm a heavy
guy
and I've done these spins solo, dual with me in the front and a
skinny guy in the back; with me in the back and a skinny person in
the front, etc. etc.
My point in saying all the above is to lay the background for
saying
that, in EVERY case, the airplane recovered from the spin EXACTLY
as
expected. NOT ONE TIME did the airplane spook me by not doing
what I
expected it to do.
From my point of view, people can go into all the spin philosophy
and techno-analysis that they like....but, in my experience, it
all
boils down to the fact that the Yak 52 spins predictably and
recovers
predictably....every time.
Roger Baker
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
ion,
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 spins-My view/OFF TOPIC |
(OFF TOPIC) - a break from the "equine bludgeoning" of the stall/spin chara
cteristics and virtues of spin training-topic and for all those who pack
heat out there...you'll like this.
-
-
Posted to Craig's List Personals:- - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - -
To the Guy Who Mugged Me Downtown (Downtown, Savannah )- - - - -
- - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
Reply to: pers-982078099@craigslist.org [??]- - - - - - - -
- - - - - - ---
- - - - - - - - - - ---
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
I was the white guy with the black Burrberry jacket that you demanded I-
-
hand over shortly after you pulled the knife on me and my girlfriend. You
-
also asked for my girlfriend's purse and earrings. I hope you some how-
---
come across this message. I'd like to apologize.- - - - - - -
- - - - - ---
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
I didn't expect you to crap your pants when I drew my pistol after you-
---
took my jacket. Truth is, I was wearing the jacket for a reason that- -
---
evening, and it wasn't that cold outside. You see, my girlfriend had just
-
bought me that Kimber 1911 .45 ACP pistol for Christmas, and we had just-
--
picked up a shoulder holster for it that evening. Beautiful pistol, huh?-
--
It's a very intimidating weapon when pointed at your head, isn't it?- -
---
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
I know it probably wasn't a great deal of fun walking back to wherever-
---
you'd come from with that brown sludge flopping about in your pants. I'm-
--
sure it was even worse since you also ended up leaving your shoes,- -
- ---
cellphone, and wallet with me. I couldn't have you calling up any of your
-
buddies to come help you try to mug us again. I took the liberty of- -
- -
calling your mother, or "Momma" as you had her listed in your cell, and-
-
explaining to her your situation. I also bought myself some gas on your-
-
card. I gave your shoes to one of the homeless guys over by Vinnie Van Go
-
Go's, along with all of the cash in your wallet, then I threw the wallet-
--
itself in a dumpster.- - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
I called a bunch of phone sex numbers from your cell. They'll be on your-
--
bill in case you'd like to know which ones. Alltel recently shut down the
-
line, and I've only had the phone for a little over a day now, so I don't
-
know what's going on with that. I hope they haven't permanently cut off-
-
your service. I was about to make some threatening phone calls to the DA's
office with it. Oh well.- - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - ---
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
So, about your pants. I know that I was a little rough on you when you did
this whole attempted mugging thing, so I'd like to make it up to you. I'm
-
sure you've already washed your pants, so I'd like to help you out. I'd-
-
like to reimburse you for the detergent you used on the pants. What brand
-
did you use, and was it liquid or powder? I'd also like to apologize for-
--
not killing you and instead making you walk back home humiliated. I'm-
- -
hoping that you'll reconsider your choice of path in life. Next time you-
--
might not be so lucky. If you read this message, email me and we'll do-
---
lunch and laundry. Peace!- - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
- Alex-----------------------
-------------------------
---------
Hank Gibson
904-738-3240 Mobile
904-213-1760 Home
hkgibby@yahoo.com
hkgibson@fnf.com
hgibson@flightworks.com
--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
Doug-even in real English,that is totally correct!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
-
Tel:-- +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax:- +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I=A2m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
Guys, As you all know I am a CJ driver, and I will admit that I have never
-flown in a 52, even as a-GIB, so-if you respond to this post please
don't kill the messenger, I'm just sharing a conversation with you.- Do w
ith it as you may.-
-
I-recently I had the oportunity to talk at length to a high time-gent w
ho started a spin in his 52 at 6500 feet and recovered at less than 500 fee
t!- His next mission after cleaning his shorts was to find the best Russi
an instructor he could find.- After 10 hours of dual he came to the follo
wing conclusion about the experience, which IMHO sums up all the past posts
by Richard.- Richard would never say it in this manner because-Brit's
just don't-speak that way. -In the 52 owners-words: "If you have not
had proper spin recovery instruction in your 52 you simply do not know what
your talking about, and if you think normal recovery methods will work or
if you think you can teach yourself-spin recovery in the 52 you are a foo
l".- Strongly worded I must agree, Yankees tend to call a spade a spade w
hen we are really "big eyed serious" about a topic.- This man was, his 12
year old son was in the back pit during the 6,000 ft spin.
-
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
I totally agree with the article posted by Roger Baker.
Whilst not having the hours that he has in a 52, I have had the pleasure an
d joy to own a exceptionally well restored Yak 52.
I now drive a 18 T which is more suited to our needs.
The Yak 52 is a big bang for the buck and is a extremely capable aerobatic
beast.
Properly rigged and in balance, it is a delightful to fly.
Perhaps I am not listening, or not reading all these articles about spins p
roperly.
We had to be instructed to learn to drive a car, we needed instruction to l
earn to fly, hell we got taught and instructed about so much in life.
Surely this thing about spins must come back to receiving the correct instr
uction re stalls and spins.
Cripes, we got instruction to do aerobatics.
In talking to people that fly airplanes, I am constantly amazed at how many
have never stalled an airplane, let alone spin an airplane.
To me a spin is a elementary maneuver.
Stalls and spins where a big part of my training, and as such I respect a s
tall and a spin.
I believe that every one learning to fly should be taught spin recovery, an
d yes, recovery from stalls, stalls and more stalls.
I have no issues with spinning a Yak 52, PROVIDED that the weight and balan
ce is correct and within the manufacturers parameters.
I do know of a 52 that had issues with recovering from spins, particularly
inverted spins.
It transpired that there where 2 issues that affected the recovery.
1 -The original Russian radios, NDB gear etc had been removed and no repl
acement compensating weight replaced.
2 -The stick position was incorrect.
Once these issues had been addressed, spin recovery became fine, normal and
inverted.
I do not perhaps have the hours that a lot of you obviously have, but tow a
caravan with too much drawbar weight and it raises the front of the tow ve
hicle making it unstable to tow.
Surely flying a beast such as a 52 that has the wrong C of G is going to st
uff things up and one way or another upset the spin recovery.
All I am saying is that if the aircraft is "in balance" and the appropriate
training and instruction is in place, I do not see an issue spinning a 52
and executing a normal recovery.
I have spun our 52 on many occasions and have recovered from inverted spins
without any issues at all.
Including applying the Beggs Meuller technique.
Hope my little bit of input helps, but please remember one thing, get the r
ight training and instruction and keep the 52 inbalance.
The 52 is a great aircraft, but as all things, inexperience, i.e. lack of t
raining will bite you.
Cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Baker" <f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
I haven't been reading the Yak List for some time now....my choice.
Yesterday, a friend mentioned to me that there was another of those
discussions going on concerning spins in general....and spins in Yak
52s specifically.
So, I've gotten back on list and have read the thread that culminated
with today's message from Jerry Painter.
Most of the discussion concerns spins, spin recognition, spin
avoidance and the necessity of getting good type specific spin training.
However, from two people have come letters basically hammering the
Yak 52 and its spin characteristics. -I think that both of these
people are much more experienced that am I in doing spins in a wide
variety of airplanes, however the experience that I do have in Yak
52s leads me to a far different conclusion than has been reached by
the two of them specifically about Yak 52s.
I began doing acro in the 52 by getting some fine instruction from
Yuri Yeltsov from Almaty, Kazakhstan. -Yuri was, more than one time,
all USSR DOSAAF Yak 52 acro champion and had spent years instructing
in the airplane.
In the ten years or so since then, I've flown the 52 around 1100
hours. -I've checked out 20 or so people in the airplane and done
spin training for quite a few more. -During those hours, I guess I've
spun the airplane at least 1500 times. -Those spins would be normal
upright with steep entry, level entry, hammerhead entry; flat spins
and acclerated flat spins....as well as inverted spins. -These spins
have been done in at least 15 different airplanes. -I'm a heavy guy
and I've done these spins solo, dual with me in the front and a
skinny guy in the back; with me in the back and a skinny person in
the front, etc. etc.
My point in saying all the above is to lay the background for saying
that, in EVERY case, the airplane recovered from the spin EXACTLY as
expected. -NOT ONE TIME did the airplane spook me by not doing what I
expected it to do.
>From my point of view, people can go into all the spin philosophy
and techno-analysis that they like....but, in my experience, it all
boils down to the fact that the Yak 52 spins predictably and recovers
predictably....every time.
Roger Baker
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
ion,
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matron
ics.com
p; - - - - - - - - --Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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| Subject: | Yak 52 spins-My view/OFF TOPIC |
Are you serious??? This is sick! Glad you made it out, just fine, no doubt!
Want you with me in a dark alley, should I ever have to be in one...YIKES!!!
BTW...I HATE Blackberry's...they ruin a relationship from the get go!
God bless!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hank Gibson
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:49 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view/OFF TOPIC
(OFF TOPIC) - a break from the "equine bludgeoning" of the
stall/spin characteristics and virtues of spin training topic and for all
those who pack heat out there...you'll like this.
Posted to Craig's List Personals:
To the Guy Who Mugged Me Downtown (Downtown, Savannah )
Reply to: pers-982078099@craigslist.org [??]
Date: 2009-01-06, 3:43AM EST
I was the white guy with the black Burrberry jacket that you
demanded I
hand over shortly after you pulled the knife on me and my
girlfriend. You
also asked for my girlfriend's purse and earrings. I hope you some
how
come across this message. I'd like to apologize.
I didn't expect you to crap your pants when I drew my pistol after
you
took my jacket. Truth is, I was wearing the jacket for a reason that
evening, and it wasn't that cold outside. You see, my girlfriend had
just
bought me that Kimber 1911 .45 ACP pistol for Christmas, and we had
just
picked up a shoulder holster for it that evening. Beautiful pistol,
huh?
It's a very intimidating weapon when pointed at your head, isn't it?
I know it probably wasn't a great deal of fun walking back to
wherever
you'd come from with that brown sludge flopping about in your pants.
I'm
sure it was even worse since you also ended up leaving your shoes,
cellphone, and wallet with me. I couldn't have you calling up any of
your
buddies to come help you try to mug us again. I took the liberty of
calling your mother, or "Momma" as you had her listed in your cell,
and
explaining to her your situation. I also bought myself some gas on
your
card. I gave your shoes to one of the homeless guys over by Vinnie
Van Go
Go's, along with all of the cash in your wallet, then I threw the
wallet
itself in a dumpster.
I called a bunch of phone sex numbers from your cell. They'll be on
your
bill in case you'd like to know which ones. Alltel recently shut
down the
line, and I've only had the phone for a little over a day now, so I
don't
know what's going on with that. I hope they haven't permanently cut
off
your service. I was about to make some threatening phone calls to
the DA's
office with it. Oh well.
So, about your pants. I know that I was a little rough on you when
you did
this whole attempted mugging thing, so I'd like to make it up to
you. I'm
sure you've already washed your pants, so I'd like to help you out.
I'd
like to reimburse you for the detergent you used on the pants. What
brand
did you use, and was it liquid or powder? I'd also like to apologize
for
not killing you and instead making you walk back home humiliated.
I'm
hoping that you'll reconsider your choice of path in life. Next time
you
might not be so lucky. If you read this message, email me and we'll
do
lunch and laundry. Peace!
- Alex
Hank Gibson
904-738-3240 Mobile
904-213-1760 Home
hkgibby@yahoo.com
hkgibson@fnf.com
hgibson@flightworks.com
--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 8:29 PM
Doug-even in real English,that is totally correct!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I?m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local
phone is +94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
Guys, As you all know I am a CJ driver, and I will admit that I
have never flown in a 52, even as a GIB, so if you respond to this post
please don't kill the messenger, I'm just sharing a conversation with you.
Do with it as you may.
I recently I had the oportunity to talk at length to a high time
gent who started a spin in his 52 at 6500 feet and recovered at less than
500 feet! His next mission after cleaning his shorts was to find the best
Russian instructor he could find. After 10 hours of dual he came to the
following conclusion about the experience, which IMHO sums up all the past
posts by Richard. Richard would never say it in this manner because Brit's
just don't speak that way. In the 52 owners words: "If you have not had
proper spin recovery instruction in your 52 you simply do not know what your
talking about, and if you think normal recovery methods will work or if you
think you can teach yourself spin recovery in the 52 you are a fool".
Strongly worded I must agree, Yankees tend to call a spade a spade when we
are really "big eyed serious" about a topic. This man was, his 12 year old
son was in the back pit during the 6,000 ft spin.
Always Yakin,
Doug
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au>
wrote:
I totally agree with the article posted by Roger Baker.
Whilst not having the hours that he has in a 52, I have had
the pleasure and joy to own a exceptionally well restored Yak 52.
I now drive a 18 T which is more suited to our needs.
The Yak 52 is a big bang for the buck and is a extremely
capable aerobatic beast.
Properly rigged and in balance, it is a delightful to fly.
Perhaps I am not listening, or not reading all these articles
about spins properly.
We had to be instructed to learn to drive a car, we needed
instruction to learn to fly, hell we got taught and instructed about so much
in life.
Surely this thing about spins must come back to receiving the
correct instruction re stalls and spins.
Cripes, we got instruction to do aerobatics.
In talking to people that fly airplanes, I am constantly
amazed at how many have never stalled an airplane, let alone spin an
airplane.
To me a spin is a elementary maneuver.
Stalls and spins where a big part of my training, and as such
I respect a stall and a spin.
I believe that every one learning to fly should be taught spin
recovery, and yes, recovery from stalls, stalls and more stalls.
I have no issues with spinning a Yak 52, PROVIDED that the
weight and balance is correct and within the manufacturers parameters.
I do know of a 52 that had issues with recovering from spins,
particularly inverted spins.
It transpired that there where 2 issues that affected the
recovery.
1 The original Russian radios, NDB gear etc had been removed
and no replacement compensating weight replaced.
2 The stick position was incorrect.
Once these issues had been addressed, spin recovery became
fine, normal and inverted.
I do not perhaps have the hours that a lot of you obviously
have, but tow a caravan with too much drawbar weight and it raises the front
of the tow vehicle making it unstable to tow.
Surely flying a beast such as a 52 that has the wrong C of G
is going to stuff things up and one way or another upset the spin recovery.
All I am saying is that if the aircraft is "in balance" and
the appropriate training and instruction is in place, I do not see an issue
spinning a 52 and executing a normal recovery.
I have spun our 52 on many occasions and have recovered from
inverted spins without any issues at all.
Including applying the Beggs Meuller technique.
Hope my little bit of input helps, but please remember one
thing, get the right training and instruction and keep the 52 inbalance.
The 52 is a great aircraft, but as all things, inexperience,
i.e. lack of training will bite you.
Cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Baker"
<f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 spins-My view
<f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
I haven't been reading the Yak List for some time now....my
choice.
Yesterday, a friend mentioned to me that there was another
of those
discussions going on concerning spins in general....and
spins in Yak
52s specifically.
So, I've gotten back on list and have read the thread that
culminated
with today's message from Jerry Painter.
Most of the discussion concerns spins, spin recognition,
spin
avoidance and the necessity of getting good type specific
spin training.
However, from two people have come letters basically
hammering the
Yak 52 and its spin characteristics. I think that both of
these
people are much more experienced that am I in doing spins in
a wide
variety of airplanes, however the experience that I do have
in Yak
52s leads me to a far different conclusion than has been
reached by
the two of them specifically about Yak 52s.
I began doing acro in the 52 by getting some fine
instruction from
Yuri Yeltsov from Almaty, Kazakhstan. Yuri was, more than
one time,
all USSR DOSAAF Yak 52 acro champion and had spent years
instructing
in the airplane.
In the ten years or so since then, I've flown the 52 around
1100
hours. I've checked out 20 or so people in the airplane and
done
spin training for quite a few more. During those hours, I
guess I've
spun the airplane at least 1500 times. Those spins would be
normal
upright with steep entry, level entry, hammerhead entry;
flat spins
and acclerated flat spins....as well as inverted spins.
These spins
have been done in at least 15 different airplanes. I'm a
heavy guy
and I've done these spins solo, dual with me in the front
and a
skinny guy in the back; with me in the back and a skinny
person in
the front, etc. etc.
My point in saying all the above is to lay the background
for saying
that, in EVERY case, the airplane recovered from the spin
EXACTLY as
expected. NOT ONE TIME did the airplane spook me by not
doing what I
expected it to do.
From my point of view, people can go into all the spin
philosophy
and techno-analysis that they like....but, in my experience,
it all
boils down to the fact that the Yak 52 spins predictably and
recovers
predictably....every time.
Roger Baker
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
ion,
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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