Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:48 AM - Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (N395V)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Gauges (barryhancock)
3. 07:22 AM - Re: Strut tool (barryhancock)
4. 10:21 AM - Re: Future 94 octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 10:24 AM - Re: POSTING GLITCH (Digital Sig) (Matt Dralle)
6. 10:29 AM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
11. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
14. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
15. 12:24 PM - Housai Valve Seats (Graeme Frew)
16. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
18. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
19. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
20. 01:03 PM - Re: Housai Valve Seats (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
21. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Phillip Goswick)
22. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
23. 01:10 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
24. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
25. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
26. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas (A. Dennis Savarese)
27. 04:52 PM - Re: Housai Valve Seats (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Mark,
Who is the author of the article you quoted and from what publication?
Thanks,
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229718#229718
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Good question on the gauges. They are recreened in English meaning that the language
is on the face of the gauge in English (not the glass) and the range markings
are also in standard US markings for pitot static instruments and kept
in metric for pressure and temperature measurements for ease of reference against
the books.
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229740#229740
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
We have just made a run of machined adapters for the landing gear struts and air
filler ports. This allows you to use US Schrader valves on your struts and
to fill your air. The adapters simply screw in to the struts without modification.
No clearance issues. We'll sell them as a kit.
The air filler adapter is also machined and is a direct bolt in replacement.
Please contact me directly for more info, pics, etc.
Regards,
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229743#229743
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Future 94 octane unleaded avgas |
A very valid point. Of course, we run them much longer, which I think also
was your point.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:08 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Future 94 octane unleaded avgas
Of course you're right. But the Russians take into account the rather small
lifetime of the engine. 500 TBO for a M14P, 300 hours for a M14PF, 100 hours
for a M14R
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: dinsdag 10 februari 2009 23:44
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Future 94 octane unleaded avgas
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Jan... With the valves, octane is not really the only issue. The lead acts
as a lubricant. Without hardened valve seats, you will erode a standard
seat over time in any engine that was designed to use lead which
subsequently is operated without it. I have seen this first hand in many a
small block Chevy. There is no question that without any lead content at
all, there will be valve seat erosion in any engine without hardened valve
seats. The good side of the story is that it really does not take much lead
at all to accomplish the goal. FAR FAR less than what is in 100LL.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Future 94 octane unleaded avgas
This is probably not a problem. In the engine books of the new engines
(M14R) the use of mogas is explicitly allowed:
"Gasolines as per US Standards ASTM-D4814, European Standards EN 228".
For the record, these books are in English, EXCEPT Chapter 15, par 3 , the
"Acceptance Statement" is still in Russian.
If it's allowed for such a supercharged engine, then I suppose it's OK for
the M14P also.
Jan Mevis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann
Sent: dinsdag 10 februari 2009 20:13
Subject: Yak-List: Future 94 octane unleaded avgas
>From what I read, this may be the next avgas. It is 100LL without the
lead. So, what are the implications for our engines regarding valves, valve
seats and valve seals?
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229587#229587
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: POSTING GLITCH (Digital Sig) |
At 03:06 PM 2/10/2009 Tuesday, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
>For any YAK List or Matronics List user who operates from any Govt.
>site. (.mil or .gov, etc)
>
>The Government has recently turned on the automatic inclusion of a
>digital certificate signature for every email message sent from a govt.
>site. The Matronics Server does not accept these digital signatures
>(file type "smime.p7s") and will reject your whole message as sent.
>
>The way around this in OUTLOOK is to use OPTIONS then SECURITY SETTINGS
>to deselect the digital signature option.
>
>Digital Signatures are becoming more and more common, so this will apply
>to a lot of other folks down the road as well until Matt gets this
>ironed out.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
I have just allowed .p7s enclosures on the Matronics server, but I strongly recommend
that people follow Mark's instructions above to disable these smime.p7s
attachments. They will fill up the archives and forums with unnecessary data.
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted. Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two, unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P" model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A 4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
http://www.intense-racing.com/VSR/VSR.html
Additional articles:
http://www.geocities.com/ste_griff_2000/Runningonunleaded.htm
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/12.pdf
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar993.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Mark,
Who is the author of the article you quoted and from what publication?
Thanks,
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229718#229718
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Ok. I agree with the heat thing. What I wasn't agreeing with was the
statement about compression ratio between the P (Housai too) and the PF
with the PF being much higher thus causing "it to happen a heck of a lot
sooner". In fact, there is only 1/10 of a point difference between the
M14 (6.3 to 1) and the Housai compression ratios with the Housai being
1/10's of a point less at 6.2 to 1.
With regards to the Housai engine developing 285 HP vs the M14P
developing 360 HP at WOT, (as you point out, more heat) if one looks at
the rpm where the Housai's 285 HP is developed (WOT) and then look at
the M14P power chart at the same RPM, (2400 RPM comes to mind or 82%),
the M14P chart says the engine develops 290 HP at 2400 RPM. Not much
horsepower difference.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted. Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two, unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P" model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A 4
cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not at
idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing which
='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for the
stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat, hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders. When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted. Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two, unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P" model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A 4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower speed
to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat, hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders. When
you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted. Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two, unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P" model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A 4
cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not at
idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing which
='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for the
stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
I see what you are saying Dennis and "how you got there". My message
was poorly written. There was meant to be two different sentences with
two different meanings. What happened was the first sentence combined
with the second, ended up with a meaning I did not intend to imply.
Better said then:
1. The lower the compression ratio, and/OR the lower the horsepower, on
a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
2. Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it happen a heck of a lot sooner due to combustion heat temperature
differences.
I never meant to imply any difference in compression ratios, only a
difference in developed horsepower.
Thanks for pointing that out... I "get it now" !!! :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Ok. I agree with the heat thing. What I wasn't agreeing with was the
statement about compression ratio between the P (Housai too) and the PF
with the PF being much higher thus causing "it to happen a heck of a lot
sooner". In fact, there is only 1/10 of a point difference between the
M14 (6.3 to 1) and the Housai compression ratios with the Housai being
1/10's of a point less at 6.2 to 1.
With regards to the Housai engine developing 285 HP vs the M14P
developing 360 HP at WOT, (as you point out, more heat) if one looks at
the rpm where the Housai's 285 HP is developed (WOT) and then look at
the M14P power chart at the same RPM, (2400 RPM comes to mind or 82%),
the M14P chart says the engine develops 290 HP at 2400 RPM. Not much
horsepower difference.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Now we're singing from the same music sheet! :-)))
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I see what you are saying Dennis and "how you got there". My message
was poorly written. There was meant to be two different sentences
with
two different meanings. What happened was the first sentence combined
with the second, ended up with a meaning I did not intend to imply.
Better said then:
1. The lower the compression ratio, and/OR the lower the horsepower,
on
a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
2. Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it happen a heck of a lot sooner due to combustion heat temperature
differences.
I never meant to imply any difference in compression ratios, only a
difference in developed horsepower.
Thanks for pointing that out... I "get it now" !!! :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:44 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Ok. I agree with the heat thing. What I wasn't agreeing with was the
statement about compression ratio between the P (Housai too) and the
PF
with the PF being much higher thus causing "it to happen a heck of a
lot
sooner". In fact, there is only 1/10 of a point difference between
the
M14 (6.3 to 1) and the Housai compression ratios with the Housai being
1/10's of a point less at 6.2 to 1.
With regards to the Housai engine developing 285 HP vs the M14P
developing 360 HP at WOT, (as you point out, more heat) if one looks
at
the rpm where the Housai's 285 HP is developed (WOT) and then look at
the M14P power chart at the same RPM, (2400 RPM comes to mind or 82%),
the M14P chart says the engine develops 290 HP at 2400 RPM. Not much
horsepower difference.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Housai Valve Seats |
Guys I am sure this will apply to the Russian engine as well. About 5 years
ago I had cause to have some valves reground on my Housai engine. A guy who
builds race engines made some tooling and cut the seats for me. He said they
were the hardest valve seats he had ever seen and had to dress the stone
three times per angle he cut in the seat. I figure your lower or no lead
fuel will work fine in these engines though your mileage may vary.
Graeme Frew
ex Nanchang
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
What point that I made are you saying Termikas disagrees with Dennis?
1. That a 400 horsepower engine develops more heat in the cylinder than
a 360 horsepower engine?
2. That the second generation cylinders were redesigned to increase heat
dissipation?
3. Or that it is not recommended to convert a P model to a PF thus
increasing cylinder temperatures further on a first generation cylinder
that the Russians already decided could be improved, and redesigned to
increase?
Assuming #3: It IS true according to Vladimir Yastremski, Russian
trained Master Mechanic, Sergei Boriak, Russian trained Sukhoi Test
Pilot, and a gent who's name I honestly can not remember from Richard
Goode's shop over in England that does these engine conversions.
Notice I did not say: "It is impossible to convert first generation
M-14P engines to 400 HP PF models." What I said was it was not
"RECOMMENDED". The only difference between the first and second
generation cylinders is increased heat dissipation. Spinning the blower
harder increases combustion chamber temperature, and increases the
amount of heat that the cylinder has to get rid of. If you want to use a
cylinder design that knowingly dissipates less heat than another when
making a modification that generates more cylinder heat, then be my
guest Dennis. It will run just fine, but will be easier to damage by
over-temping.
This breaks down into a "he said, they said" kind of discussion. You
say Termikus said it is ok to do this. My sources and my own logic
dictate otherwise. To each their own, but remember that Termikus is in
business to make a profit.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower
speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in
the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell
the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P
engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat,
hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders.
When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into
the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more
power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running
first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P
model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
<======================
Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
=======================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
The point I was making was that Termikas does the upgrade to 400 HP to
Series 1 engines and Series 1 cylinders. In fact, I delivered one on a
Yak 52 TD last summer. It had Series 1 cylinders.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
What point that I made are you saying Termikas disagrees with Dennis?
1. That a 400 horsepower engine develops more heat in the cylinder
than
a 360 horsepower engine?
2. That the second generation cylinders were redesigned to increase
heat
dissipation?
3. Or that it is not recommended to convert a P model to a PF thus
increasing cylinder temperatures further on a first generation
cylinder
that the Russians already decided could be improved, and redesigned to
increase?
Assuming #3: It IS true according to Vladimir Yastremski, Russian
trained Master Mechanic, Sergei Boriak, Russian trained Sukhoi Test
Pilot, and a gent who's name I honestly can not remember from Richard
Goode's shop over in England that does these engine conversions.
Notice I did not say: "It is impossible to convert first generation
M-14P engines to 400 HP PF models." What I said was it was not
"RECOMMENDED". The only difference between the first and second
generation cylinders is increased heat dissipation. Spinning the
blower
harder increases combustion chamber temperature, and increases the
amount of heat that the cylinder has to get rid of. If you want to use
a
cylinder design that knowingly dissipates less heat than another when
making a modification that generates more cylinder heat, then be my
guest Dennis. It will run just fine, but will be easier to damage by
over-temping.
This breaks down into a "he said, they said" kind of discussion. You
say Termikus said it is ok to do this. My sources and my own logic
dictate otherwise. To each their own, but remember that Termikus is
in
business to make a profit.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:59 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling
companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower
speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in
the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell
the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P
engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat,
hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders.
When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into
the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more
power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running
first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P
model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
<======================
Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
=======================<;
via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Not to sound argumentative Mark, but who/what company said it was not
recommended?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
What point that I made are you saying Termikas disagrees with Dennis?
1. That a 400 horsepower engine develops more heat in the cylinder
than
a 360 horsepower engine?
2. That the second generation cylinders were redesigned to increase
heat
dissipation?
3. Or that it is not recommended to convert a P model to a PF thus
increasing cylinder temperatures further on a first generation
cylinder
that the Russians already decided could be improved, and redesigned to
increase?
Assuming #3: It IS true according to Vladimir Yastremski, Russian
trained Master Mechanic, Sergei Boriak, Russian trained Sukhoi Test
Pilot, and a gent who's name I honestly can not remember from Richard
Goode's shop over in England that does these engine conversions.
Notice I did not say: "It is impossible to convert first generation
M-14P engines to 400 HP PF models." What I said was it was not
"RECOMMENDED". The only difference between the first and second
generation cylinders is increased heat dissipation. Spinning the
blower
harder increases combustion chamber temperature, and increases the
amount of heat that the cylinder has to get rid of. If you want to use
a
cylinder design that knowingly dissipates less heat than another when
making a modification that generates more cylinder heat, then be my
guest Dennis. It will run just fine, but will be easier to damage by
over-temping.
This breaks down into a "he said, they said" kind of discussion. You
say Termikus said it is ok to do this. My sources and my own logic
dictate otherwise. To each their own, but remember that Termikus is
in
business to make a profit.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:59 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling
companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower
speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in
the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell
the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P
engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat,
hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders.
When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into
the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more
power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running
first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P
model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
<======================
Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
=======================<;
via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
I believe you.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
The point I was making was that Termikas does the upgrade to 400 HP to
Series 1 engines and Series 1 cylinders. In fact, I delivered one on a
Yak 52 TD last summer. It had Series 1 cylinders.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
What point that I made are you saying Termikas disagrees with
Dennis?
1. That a 400 horsepower engine develops more heat in the
cylinder than
a 360 horsepower engine?
2. That the second generation cylinders were redesigned to
increase heat
dissipation?
3. Or that it is not recommended to convert a P model to a PF
thus
increasing cylinder temperatures further on a first generation
cylinder
that the Russians already decided could be improved, and
redesigned to
increase?
Assuming #3: It IS true according to Vladimir Yastremski,
Russian
trained Master Mechanic, Sergei Boriak, Russian trained Sukhoi
Test
Pilot, and a gent who's name I honestly can not remember from
Richard
Goode's shop over in England that does these engine conversions.
Notice I did not say: "It is impossible to convert first
generation
M-14P engines to 400 HP PF models." What I said was it was not
"RECOMMENDED". The only difference between the first and second
generation cylinders is increased heat dissipation. Spinning
the blower
harder increases combustion chamber temperature, and increases
the
amount of heat that the cylinder has to get rid of. If you want
to use a
cylinder design that knowingly dissipates less heat than another
when
making a modification that generates more cylinder heat, then be
my
guest Dennis. It will run just fine, but will be easier to
damage by
over-temping.
This breaks down into a "he said, they said" kind of discussion.
You
say Termikus said it is ok to do this. My sources and my own
logic
dictate otherwise. To each their own, but remember that
Termikus is in
business to make a profit.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:59 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling
companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower
speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in
the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell
the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P
engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat,
hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders.
When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into
the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more
power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running
first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P
model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
<======================
Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
=======================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Housai Valve Seats |
Graeme, with respect, this is a subject that I feel is unwise to dismiss
based on what your friend said when he ground the valve seats in your
engine.
1. Unless those seats were made to the exact same specs, you also can
not be sure of anything that applies to an engine made in another
country, I.E. a Housai compared to an M-14.
2. Not only is the hardness of the seat material massively different at
grinding temperatures as compared to combustion temperatures, but the
valve material (as well as the valve seats) comes into play.
Valve seats are a science unto themselves. For an interesting discourse
on the subject, read this:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7216427/description.html
Bottom line. If you want to run 100% unleaded fuel in these engines for
a long period of time with no additives, and not be concerned about it
at all, that is clearly your choice.
Personally, I tend to side with every technical article written on the
subject.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graeme Frew
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Housai Valve Seats
Guys I am sure this will apply to the Russian engine as well. About 5
years ago I had cause to have some valves reground on my Housai engine.
A guy who builds race engines made some tooling and cut the seats for
me. He said they were the hardest valve seats he had ever seen and had
to dress the stone three times per angle he cut in the seat. I figure
your lower or no lead fuel will work fine in these engines though your
mileage may vary.
Graeme Frew
ex Nanchang
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
How can you identify series 1 cylinders
Phil
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Not to sound sarcastic Dennis, but I already answered that question.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not to sound argumentative Mark, but who/what company said it was not
recommended?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
What point that I made are you saying Termikas disagrees with
Dennis?
1. That a 400 horsepower engine develops more heat in the
cylinder than
a 360 horsepower engine?
2. That the second generation cylinders were redesigned to
increase heat
dissipation?
3. Or that it is not recommended to convert a P model to a PF
thus
increasing cylinder temperatures further on a first generation
cylinder
that the Russians already decided could be improved, and
redesigned to
increase?
Assuming #3: It IS true according to Vladimir Yastremski,
Russian
trained Master Mechanic, Sergei Boriak, Russian trained Sukhoi
Test
Pilot, and a gent who's name I honestly can not remember from
Richard
Goode's shop over in England that does these engine conversions.
Notice I did not say: "It is impossible to convert first
generation
M-14P engines to 400 HP PF models." What I said was it was not
"RECOMMENDED". The only difference between the first and second
generation cylinders is increased heat dissipation. Spinning
the blower
harder increases combustion chamber temperature, and increases
the
amount of heat that the cylinder has to get rid of. If you want
to use a
cylinder design that knowingly dissipates less heat than another
when
making a modification that generates more cylinder heat, then be
my
guest Dennis. It will run just fine, but will be easier to
damage by
over-temping.
This breaks down into a "he said, they said" kind of discussion.
You
say Termikus said it is ok to do this. My sources and my own
logic
dictate otherwise. To each their own, but remember that
Termikus is in
business to make a profit.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:59 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling
companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower
speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in
the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell
the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P
engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat,
hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders.
When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into
the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more
power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running
first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P
model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
<======================
Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
=======================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Oops! You're right.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Not to sound sarcastic Dennis, but I already answered that question.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not to sound argumentative Mark, but who/what company said it was not
recommended?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
What point that I made are you saying Termikas disagrees with
Dennis?
1. That a 400 horsepower engine develops more heat in the
cylinder than
a 360 horsepower engine?
2. That the second generation cylinders were redesigned to
increase heat
dissipation?
3. Or that it is not recommended to convert a P model to a PF
thus
increasing cylinder temperatures further on a first generation
cylinder
that the Russians already decided could be improved, and
redesigned to
increase?
Assuming #3: It IS true according to Vladimir Yastremski,
Russian
trained Master Mechanic, Sergei Boriak, Russian trained Sukhoi
Test
Pilot, and a gent who's name I honestly can not remember from
Richard
Goode's shop over in England that does these engine conversions.
Notice I did not say: "It is impossible to convert first
generation
M-14P engines to 400 HP PF models." What I said was it was not
"RECOMMENDED". The only difference between the first and second
generation cylinders is increased heat dissipation. Spinning
the blower
harder increases combustion chamber temperature, and increases
the
amount of heat that the cylinder has to get rid of. If you want
to use a
cylinder design that knowingly dissipates less heat than another
when
making a modification that generates more cylinder heat, then be
my
guest Dennis. It will run just fine, but will be easier to
damage by
over-temping.
This breaks down into a "he said, they said" kind of discussion.
You
say Termikus said it is ok to do this. My sources and my own
logic
dictate otherwise. To each their own, but remember that
Termikus is in
business to make a profit.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:59 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Not according to Termikas, one of the top engine overhauling
companies.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I forgot to mention something.
It is a fact that all you need to do is to increase the blower
speed to
make a P model M-14 into a PF model and gain 40 horsepower in
the
process. However, it is also a fact that the folks that sell
the
package to do this do not recommend that you do it to an M-14P
engine
running first generation cylinders. Why is that? Because the
original
M-14 cylinders heat fins were redesigned to dissipate more heat,
hence
the difference between first and second generation cylinders.
When you
increase the blower speed, you put more air and more fuel into
the
engine, which means a higher combustion temp., which means more
power,
and also more excess heat to get rid of, which is why running
first
generation cylinders is not recommended when converting a P
model M-14
into a PF model.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
First, I totally concur with the factual data you posted.
Indeed, the
blower speed is really the only difference between the two,
unless you
really want to nitpick between first and second generation
cylinder
heads, which we will ignore here.
To answer your question... Basically it's a heat thing.
Take a given engine design.... An ideal comparison would indeed
be the
M-14 series of engine, where you have the 360 horsepower "P"
model and
the 400 horsepower "PF" model, but physically speaking they are
both
identical (as you pointed out...blower speed aside). Anytime
you make
more horsepower in this given engine, you also make more heat. A
4 cycle
engine is basically just one big heat engine. So the main reason
it is
more of a factor in say the PF model versus the P model is that
the
combustion temperature is indeed higher. Of course I am talking
about
when the engine is actually developing peak horsepower and not
at idle,
or some partial midrange power setting. The whole issue
surrounding
valve recession is based on the heat of the valve itself. The
hotter
the valve, the quicker it is going to happen.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:34 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Why do you say that Mark? The compression ratio on the PF is
the same
as the P engine. The difference is the supercharger gearing
which ='s
boost at WOT. IE: approx 1000 mm vs. 880 mm at sea level for
the stock
P at WOT.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I would say so, yes. The lower the compression ratio, and the
lower
the
horsepower, on a given engine design, the slower this effect
occurs.
Comparing a Housai to say an M-14PF, the M-14PF is going to see
it
happen a
heck of a lot sooner.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:48 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
<capav8r@gmail.com>
> Without hardened seats or some lubricant in the fuel, they can
erode
quickly under the right conditions! The two worst contributors
to this
problem are prolonged high engine speeds, and high exhaust gas
temperatures.
Mark....this is from the article you posted....isn't this how we
run
aircraft engines????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229660#229660
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
<======================
Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
=======================<;
via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
===============
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
The fin height between the rocker arm boxes are uniform in height. Note
I did not say the same height. They are uniform meaning the top of the
fins, regardless of the curvature of the top of the cylinder are the
same height. The Series 2 cylinder fins have some fins higher than
others. If memory serves me correctly, it is every other fin that is
higher.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillip Goswick
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
How can you identify series 1 cylinders
Phil
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
By the shape and design of their heat dissipation fins. The second
generation designs had staggered (and larger) fins to allow more heat
dissipation through air flow over the fins.
Hard to describe with words.
You really need to see actual pictures of the two, which I do not happen
to have on hand right now... Sorry. Maybe someone else can help.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillip
Goswick
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
How can you identify series 1 cylinders
Phil
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas |
Complete engine with Series 1 cylinders in photo 0265. Note the fins on
the top of the cylinders are uniform in height. Photo 1037 is another
engine and it has both Series 1 and Series 2 cylinders. In picture 1037
look VERY closely at Cylinder #1 just below the threaded stud where the
cooling louver braces attach and you'll see fins which are alternating
in height. Also cylinder #4 has a Series 2 cylinder. Look again at the
fin heights and compare them to the #2 and #3 cylinder fins.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
By the shape and design of their heat dissipation fins. The second
generation designs had staggered (and larger) fins to allow more heat
dissipation through air flow over the fins.
Hard to describe with words.
You really need to see actual pictures of the two, which I do not
happen
to have on hand right now... Sorry. Maybe someone else can help.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillip
Goswick
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:07 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: YAK- LIST: 94 Octane unleaded avgas
How can you identify series 1 cylinders
Phil
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Housai Valve Seats |
Just for everyones information we cut Housai and M14P valve seats all the time,
they are not hardened valve seats, just the opposite, they are easy to cut and
it takes no special tools that any master mechanic would not have or be able
to use.? They are three angle cuts and I suspect they are bronze or similar
material.
Anyone who says they needed to dress the stone three times on those seats needs
new stones!
We also have been running auto fuel (87oct) for six years now (200hrs per year)
with no problems whatsoever.? I suspect most peoples problems arrise from not
correctly adjusting the valves out of laziness or not knowing how.
Gary 'Bunndini' Bunn
Vector Warbirds USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 1:59 pm
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Housai Valve Seats
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Graeme, with respect, this is a subject that I feel is unwise to dismiss
based on what your friend said when he ground the valve seats in your
engine.
1. Unless those seats were made to the exact same specs, you also can
not be sure of anything that applies to an engine made in another
country, I.E. a Housai compared to an M-14.
2. Not only is the hardness of the seat material massively different at
grinding temperatures as compared to combustion temperatures, but the
valve material (as well as the valve seats) comes into play.
Valve seats are a science unto themselves. For an interesting discourse
on the subject, read this:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7216427/description.html
Bottom line. If you want to run 100% unleaded fuel in these engines for
a long period of time with no additives, and not be concerned about it
at all, that is clearly your choice.
Personally, I tend to side with every technical article written on the
subject.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graeme Frew
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Housai Valve Seats
Guys I am sure this will apply to the Russian engine as well. About 5
years ago I had cause to have some valves reground on my Housai engine.
A guy who builds race engines made some tooling and cut the seats for
me. He said they were the hardest valve seats he had ever seen and had
to dress the stone three times per angle he cut in the seat. I figure
your lower or no lead fuel will work fine in these engines though your
mileage may vary.
Graeme Frew
ex Nanchang
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|