Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:32 AM - Re: starter woes (Nigel Willson)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: starter woes (Roger Kemp MD)
3. 07:06 AM - Re: starter woes (Roger Baker)
4. 09:01 AM - Max speed canopy open? YAK 52 (Bill1200)
5. 09:42 AM - Re: Yak-52 electrical accessories (Frank)
6. 11:26 AM - Yak Finally Flying (TXYak)
7. 12:48 PM - Compressor+parts for sale.... (Tim Gagnon)
8. 02:11 PM - Re: Compressor+parts for sale.... (Scott Poehlmann)
9. 02:44 PM - Re: Yak-52 electrical accessories (radiopicture)
10. 05:18 PM - Re: starter woes (Yak Pilot)
Message 1
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I am aware of at least one accident involving hand swinging a '52 in the UK.
His hand was a right mess...
Rumour has it, what happened was exactly as you describe here. So BE WARNED
!
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: 22 March 2009 02:45
Subject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes
Mark;
I have to take exception to one part of your recommended hand start
procedure.
You said "when the guy propping it yells contact, hit the starter button
------"
The problem with that is the distinct possibility that you may have just the
right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when you energize the boost
coil with the start button that cylinder will fire, either forward or,
possibly, backward.
When the start guy calls contact his hands are on the blade and he expects
you to turn on the magnetos anticipating a start as he is moving backward
clear of the blades.
If you are going to use the boost coil for this purpose the timing is
critical. You must hit the start button after his hands are clear and he is
moving away.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes
Lots of good suggestions given:
1. Move prop... you did that with no help.
2. Check air pressure, make sure it is where it should be. Assume you did
that too.
3. Check for obvious line leaks (you probably did that too).
Now some new stuff, assuming this is the stock Russian starter solenoid.
A. It has a manual level on it... hopefully. Some of the later versions do
not.
Simply stay clear of the prop, and pull on the little lever and see if the
engine cranks.
If it does proceed to step B.
B. Pull the top fitting off the air starter solenoid. This is the opposite
end
from where the cannon plug goes. Squirt in as much WD-40 as you can. Let
it sit
for awhile and do that again. And again. And again. I think you get the
point.
Now try it again electrically. This usually fixes it... for a LITTLE while.
Replace
it as soon as possible.
Of course doing all this is easy on a YAK-50 where you can shut off the main
air
supply with a manual valve, not sure what you have on that 55. You may have
to drain
the whole system and go from there.
You say you REPLACED THE STARTER VALVE ITSELF? If that is the case, then
ignore all
of the above.
Remove air line to starter distributor and manually open the valve with the
manual lever
a few times and you will see if you get good air flow. Stand BACK, because
crap will
fly everywhere with that line open.
If all this checks good and you still can not get it to crank, then it may
be the
starter distributor itself... highly UNLIKELY... and hope to goodness it is
not, because
it is a sorry son of a gun to replace. DO NOT TRY IT YOURSELF! Do not let
ANYONE other
than a very qualified person replace that thing! WHEW.
Lastly, if you are stuck someplace... just prop the thing. It usually
starts very
easily propping it.
Since your starter vibrator is still good, just bleed all the air out, ALL
THE AIR MIND
YOU!!! Then just set it up for a normal start, and when the guy propping it
yells
contact, hit the starter button and when it fires, turn on the mags as
usual. No need
to ever be stuck anywhere with this problem. Doing it all by yourself is
pretty tough
I admit.
Best of Luck
Mark Bitterlich
_____
From: Dr Andre Katz <bu131@swbell.net>
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:26:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: starter woes
my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual
solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the
stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button
that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into
the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the
plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of
course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in
the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of
the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for
dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think
that the chances of any repair go down in direct proportion of the number
of lookers around the airplane.
any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system.
appreciate any help.
stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)
andres
Message 2
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If you are planning on adding hand propping the M-14 or Housia to your clue
bag one might consider practicing this with someone that is experience in
hand propping this aircraft engine before you have to do it off field. Off
field failure of the start solenoid, dead battery, stuck air start valve,
forgot to close the air valve, leaking air line, corroded solenoid
connections or broken connections, broken wiring to the energizer switch,
or God forbid a spider leak, doing OJT for the first time may not be such a
good outcome. Just ask a gentle man in Tallassee, Al about that. He hand
propped his 50 and it taxied through his hanger destroying a perfectly good
airplane along with damaging a couple others in the process knocking him
down too. There is a FBO owner in North Alabama that is lucky to still be
here after the prop hit him on the back of the head after he feel into the
prop trying to start a Pitts model 12. He has a craniotomy scar to show for
the repair of his depressed skull fracture but luckily is back at work and
not taking a permanent dirt nap.
This engine is very easy to start by hand propping. Almost too easy.
Especially if the bozo sitting behind the start switch does not use the
magnetos and pushes the start switch instead energizing all of the
cylinders at once . She will fire in a heartbeat if all that was wrong was
depleted air or a failed start solenoid. With the cylinders primed, pushing
the start valve as the blade is moved will almost always reward you with a
engine start. Getting out of the way is another thing.
While on the subject of surprise starts, one might suggest doing a mag
check during the engine run up before shut down. A worn P lead connection
rewarded me with a engine turning over but failing to start luckily with the
only injury being a bruise on the back of my hand and my glasses being
knocked off. Now that was a wakeup call!
If you are going to hand prop this aircraft, it is best done as a two man
job. One in the cockpit and one on the ground pulling the prop. Here is the
sequence as I was taught others may agree or disagree and are free to add to
this if preferred.
1) Chock and tie down the aircraft if trying this solo.not recommended
by me personally. If dual, chocks and brakes locked at a minimum. If the
reason for hand propping is depleted air, the brakes may not work so chocks,
tie the aircraft down (the tail at a minimum) and have someone that knows
how to operate a YAK/CJ in the pit if you are going to do the hand job.
2) Prime and pull blades as usual (with the mags and switches off if it
is you pulling the prop to do the hand job).
3) Position the Blade at about the 11 o'clock position on a compression
stroke. This is as you are standing behind the blade or looking it from the
cockpit.
4) With you (or whoever) standing to the rear of the blade prepared to
pull down on the tip, Yell "contact" so the pilot in the cockpit knows you
are about to pull the blade down and through with an aggressive pull. The
Mag Switches are off at this point.
5) As the blade is aggressively pulled downward (starts to move) the
person in the cockpit flips the mags to 1+2. The downward pull needs to be a
firm pull downward. You have to overcome 70 to 80 lbs of cylinder
compression with enough forward motion to keep the prop turning into the
next compression stroke on the next cylinder.
6) The person pulling the prop, aggressively pulls downward on the prop
and steps back from the prop. They step back so if he/she loses their
balance they do not fall forward into a running engine.
This may take two or three times to fire her off but she will start if there
are no other issues preventing it from firing. Hitting the start button will
most likely surprise every one with popping the prop downward.
I have not practiced this solo so I will not comment on trying to prop the
YAK solo. This is not something that you have to do on a regular basis but
doing it every now and then might improve one's confidence in starting this
engine if off field and threatened with walking home because the facilities
cannot support the YAK. Taking a pony tank and air connector assembly may
prevent having to hand prop the bird off field if air depletion is the
problem.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Willson
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 3:30 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: starter woes
I am aware of at least one accident involving hand swinging a '52 in the UK.
His hand was a right mess...
Rumour has it, what happened was exactly as you describe here. So BE WARNED
!
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: 22 March 2009 02:45
Subject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes
Mark;
I have to take exception to one part of your recommended hand start
procedure.
You said "when the guy propping it yells contact, hit the starter button
------"
The problem with that is the distinct possibility that you may have just the
right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when you energize the boost
coil with the start button that cylinder will fire, either forward or,
possibly, backward.
When the start guy calls contact his hands are on the blade and he expects
you to turn on the magnetos anticipating a start as he is moving backward
clear of the blades.
If you are going to use the boost coil for this purpose the timing is
critical. You must hit the start button after his hands are clear and he is
moving away.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes
Lots of good suggestions given:
1. Move prop... you did that with no help.
2. Check air pressure, make sure it is where it should be. Assume you did
that too.
3. Check for obvious line leaks (you probably did that too).
Now some new stuff, assuming this is the stock Russian starter solenoid.
A. It has a manual level on it... hopefully. Some of the later versions do
not.
Simply stay clear of the prop, and pull on the little lever and see if the
engine cranks.
If it does proceed to step B.
B. Pull the top fitting off the air starter solenoid. This is the opposite
end
from where the cannon plug goes. Squirt in as much WD-40 as you can. Let
it sit
for awhile and do that again. And again. And again. I think you get the
point.
Now try it again electrically. This usually fixes it... for a LITTLE while.
Replace
it as soon as possible.
Of course doing all this is easy on a YAK-50 where you can shut off the main
air
supply with a manual valve, not sure what you have on that 55. You may have
to drain
the whole system and go from there.
You say you REPLACED THE STARTER VALVE ITSELF? If that is the case, then
ignore all
of the above.
Remove air line to starter distributor and manually open the valve with the
manual lever
a few times and you will see if you get good air flow. Stand BACK, because
crap will
fly everywhere with that line open.
If all this checks good and you still can not get it to crank, then it may
be the
starter distributor itself... highly UNLIKELY... and hope to goodness it is
not, because
it is a sorry son of a gun to replace. DO NOT TRY IT YOURSELF! Do not let
ANYONE other
than a very qualified person replace that thing! WHEW.
Lastly, if you are stuck someplace... just prop the thing. It usually
starts very
easily propping it.
Since your starter vibrator is still good, just bleed all the air out, ALL
THE AIR MIND
YOU!!! Then just set it up for a normal start, and when the guy propping it
yells
contact, hit the starter button and when it fires, turn on the mags as
usual. No need
to ever be stuck anywhere with this problem. Doing it all by yourself is
pretty tough
I admit.
Best of Luck
Mark Bitterlich
_____
From: Dr Andre Katz <bu131@swbell.net>
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:26:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: starter woes
my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual
solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the
stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button
that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into
the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the
plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of
course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in
the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of
the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for
dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think
that the chances of any repair go down in direct proportion of the number
of lookers around the airplane.
any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system.
appreciate any help.
stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)
andres
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: starter woes |
On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:28 PM, Dr Andre Katz wrote:
>
>
> the rescue party was sent to LNC, this is what I really love about
> aviation, 5 volunteers 2 airplanes, 80 bucks in new batteries
> (turned out not needed) and a round of burgers that I had to buy for
> all involved returned blackmagic to her roosting place.
> thanks to all suggestions, I learned a lot.
> Also 2 great guys in LNC that also went out of their way to help.
> We measured the voltage with a voltmeter, show 28 volts, well
> perhaps volts ok but amperage bad (been there done that) so we
> hooked a brand new battery piggy back and no motion of the prop,
> only hiss at the rear of the case (somewhere). Not a valve. Measured
> capacitance at the kimball electric starter solenoid and no juice.
> The culprit was a bad wire from the switch to the solenoid. We found
> a hot line outside the circuit that drove the dump solenoid and
> voila! except that the prop will turn when the dump switch was
> energized but the engine will not start. After emptying the tank
> once, it doomed on me that the shower of sparks needed to be
> activated. So one hand in the dump switch, one in the primer, the
> other in the original start button for the vibrator and the mouth in
> the throttle to pump got it started. Now it resting with a smile in
> the hangar like a queen that she is.
> This is whats great about yakking and friends to help.
> the 55m has a different system than the cj' I have a valve from the
> cj and could not install it in the 55 due to space problems. Single
> switch no bypass. The prop turning trick did not work, of course it
> was electrical.
> but I appreciate all tips. I learn every time.
>
> andres
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Max speed canopy open? YAK 52 |
Is there one?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235647#235647
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-52 electrical accessories |
When adding a GPS (Garmin 295) to my YAK I tapped into the rear of the power
switch. The power switch has screw terminals on the back of it so if you use
lugs and tap into the switch. I'm sure there are other ways but this is one
way that worked for me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "radiopicture" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 3:25 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak-52 electrical accessories
>
> I have an unmodified Yak-52 to which I'm adding a transponder and ship
> power cord for a GPS. I would like to do this as uninvasively as possible.
> I had considered disconnecting the ADF from it's breaker-switch and using
> it to control the two items I'm adding which would also have their own
> (smaller) fuses. Is there an easy place to tap into that circuit? What
> would I have access to in that electrical box in above the right rudder
> pedal? Is there something in there after the switches or at least after
> the master? I'm trying to not drill holes for accessory switches. Thanks
> for any tips.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235546#235546
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature database 3953 (20090321) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Yak Finally Flying |
Well after a year of working on my Yak 52 project....I finally flew it. Many thanks
to the people on this board including Jill/Carl Hays, Mark Bitterlich and
Dennis Savarese for all the assistance. I've put about 4 hours on it now
and It's a blast to fly. Here is a Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWcZw7Xw06g
Chris Keating
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235682#235682
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| Subject: | Compressor+parts for sale.... |
Yak air compressor with about 200 hours on it. Two shear couplings, one is in serviceable
(new) condition, the other sheared the pins...could be fixed. Compressor
gaskets, and the check valve from the compressor to the snot valve.
$500.00 plus shipping
email: TimsMisc(@)msn.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235695#235695
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Compressor+parts for sale.... |
SOLD (unless you already have...)
Scott Poehlmann
Tim Gagnon wrote:
>
> Yak air compressor with about 200 hours on it. Two shear couplings, one is in
serviceable (new) condition, the other sheared the pins...could be fixed. Compressor
gaskets, and the check valve from the compressor to the snot valve.
>
> $500.00 plus shipping
>
> email: TimsMisc(@)msn.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235695#235695
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-52 electrical accessories |
Thanks for that suggestion... That may be the way. I may try to get to the ADF
switch somehow, as it would be nice to be able to use it to control the accessories.
I'm just wondering it that switched side of that circuit runs through that
box, or it there's an easy way to get to that switch without too much fuss.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235708#235708
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| Subject: | Re: starter woes |
Folks, you do not have to take exception.=C2- I was giving a block diagra
m of how to start the engine, and not a detailed step by step, how to chock
the aircraft, how to prime the aircraft, how to tie it down, how to see if
there was a thunderstorm in the area.=C2- Etc.=C2- No complaints... th
e points given were valid and well thought out.=C2-=C2- =0A=0AThey also
could easily apply to a standard opposed engine with impulse couplers that
are "right on the verge" as you move the prop.=C2- Same thing can happen
.=C2- =0A=0AI suppose maybe it would be wise to hit the start button a fe
w times before he touches the prop.=C2- On a airplane with impulse couple
rs it might be a good idea to turn the mags on and off once... I really do
not know.=C2- =0A=0APersonally, when I tell contact to the pilot, my hand
s are not already on the prop.=C2- I am standing back getting ready.=C2
- When I yell "switch on" I then wait for a nod from the pilot and then p
ull it.=C2- Others may not do that, so the advice given here is perfectly
valid as is any advice given about propping an airplane.=C2- =0A=0AProba
bly the best advice of all is not to prop an aircraft,,,,,,, period.=C2-
Some people know how to do it safely and some do not.=C2- I am not going
to try how to teach anyone how to do it....ever.=C2- Personally, or on th
e YAK LIST.=C2-=C2- My advice was meant purely as a "how it works" expl
anation.=C2- =0A=0AThanks to all who made sure they corrected what I said
... because I clearly did not make that point at all in my first email.=C2
- !!!!!=0A=0ADON'T PROP ENGINES.=C2- =0A=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Nigel Willson <nigel@yakdisplay
.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 4:29:50 A
M=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: starter woes=0A=0A=0AI am aware of at least one
accident involving hand swinging a =9952 in the UK.=0AHis hand was a
right mess.=0ARumour has it, what happened was exactly as
you describe here. So BE WARNED !=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-yak-list-
server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Walter Lannon=0ASent: 22 March 2009 02:45=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com
=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes=0A=C2-=0AMark;=0A=C2-=0AI have t
o take exception to one part of your recommended hand start procedure. =0AY
ou said "when the guy propping it yells contact, hit the starter button ---
---"=0AThe problem with that is the distinct possibility that you may have
just the right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when you energize t
he boost coil with the start button that cylinder will fire, either forward
or, possibly,=C2-backward.=0A=C2-=0AWhen the start guy calls contact h
is hands are on the blade and he expects you to turn on the magnetos antici
pating a start as he is moving backward clear of the blades. =0A=C2-=0AIf
you are going to use the boost coil for this purpose the timing is critica
l.=C2- You must hit the start button after his hands are clear and he is
moving away.=0A=C2-=0AWalt=0A=C2-=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFro
m:Yak Pilot =0ATo:yak-list@matronics.com =0ASent:Saturday, March 21, 2009 1
0:10 AM=0ASubject:Re: Yak-List: starter woes=0A=C2-=0ALots of good sugges
tions given: =0A1.=C2- Move prop... you did that with no help. =0A2.=C2
- Check air pressure, make sure it is where it should be.=C2- Assume yo
u did that too. =0A3.=C2- Check for obvious line leaks (you probably did
that too).=C2- =0A=C2-=0ANow some new stuff, assuming this is the stock
Russian starter solenoid.=C2- =0AA.=C2- It has a manual level on it...
hopefully.=C2- Some of the later versions do not.=0ASimply stay clear of
the prop, and pull on the little lever and see if the engine cranks. =0AIf
it does proceed to step B. =0A=C2-=0AB.=C2- Pull the top fitting off t
he air starter solenoid.=C2- This is the opposite end =0Afrom where the c
annon plug goes.=C2- Squirt in as much WD-40 as you can.=C2- Let it sit
=0Afor awhile and do that again.=C2- And again.=C2- And again.=C2- I
think you get the point. =0ANow try it again electrically.=C2- This usua
lly fixes it... for a LITTLE while.=C2- Replace=0Ait as soon as possible.
=C2- =0A=C2-=0AOf course doing all this is easy on a YAK-50 where you c
an shut off the main air =0Asupply with a manual valve, not sure what you h
ave on that 55.=C2- You may have to drain=0Athe whole system and go from
there.=C2-=0A=C2-=0AYou say you REPLACED THE STARTER VALVE ITSELF?=C2
- If that is the case, then ignore all=0Aof the above.=C2- =0A=C2-=0A
Remove air line to starter distributor and manually open the valve with the
manual lever=0Aa few times and you will see if you get good air flow.=C2
- Stand BACK, because crap will =0Afly everywhere with that line open.=0A
If all this checks good and you still can not get it to crank, then it may
be the =0Astarter distributor itself... highly UNLIKELY... and hope to good
ness it is not, because=0Ait is a sorry son of a gun to replace.=C2- DO N
OT TRY IT YOURSELF!=C2- Do not let ANYONE other=0Athan a very qualified p
erson replace that thing!=C2- WHEW.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ALastly, if you are
stuck someplace... just prop the thing.=C2- It usually starts very =0Aeas
ily propping it.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ASince your starter vibrator is still goo
d, just bleed all the air out, ALL THE AIR MIND =0AYOU!!!=C2- Then just s
et it up for a normal start, and when the guy propping it yells =0Acontact,
hit the starter button and when it fires, turn on the mags as usual.=C2-
No need =0Ato ever be stuck anywhere with this problem.=C2- Doing it all
by yourself is pretty tough=0AI admit.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ABest of Luck=0AMa
rk Bitterlich=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Dr A
ndre Katz <bu131@swbell.net>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, M
arch 20, 2009 6:26:50 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: starter woes=0Amy 55m today l
eft me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual solenoid system wi
thout a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the stuff out. I hav
e replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button that combines
the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into the back of th
e engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the plane, after sitt
ing for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of course went to get
a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in the tank, all I get
is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of the prop, I replace
d the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for dumping air wishing
that that will make it come home) but no way, i think that the chances of a
ny repair go down in direct =C2-proportion of the number of lookers aroun
d the airplane. =0Aany ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system.
=0Aappreciate any help.=0Astuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)=0Aandres =0A =C2
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