Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:47 AM - Re: Plug question (skidmk)
2. 07:08 AM - Re: RC Allen RCA2600 ADI (Craig Winkelmann)
3. 12:05 PM - Re: starter woes (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: Hand Propping (John Fischer)
5. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Hand Propping (cjpilot710@aol.com)
6. 03:11 PM - Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Hand Propping (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 08:49 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) (Walter Lannon)
9. 09:15 PM - Re: Hand Propping (Tim Gagnon)
10. 09:56 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Plug question |
thanks alot,, I stand corrected.
M
--------
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236210#236210
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| Subject: | Re: RC Allen RCA2600 ADI |
BUT..if you don't want to go thru a major panel mod like installing an EFIS
Take a look at this little baby for half the price. With the GPS, you have digital
heading info....nice little unit.
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/instruments.htm
3-1/8 ADI w/ GPS and battery backup is $1345. Just don't know if it works inverted....I
have one of the 2-1/4 in my CJ as a backup to the EFIS.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236213#236213
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Doug is this the same part as is used on the M-14?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes
If you have the type of QDF-1 valve which has the lever on it try depresing
that, if it still refuses to stop hissing take off the line going TO the
start sypder on the engione, next, locate the line going TO the QDF-1 start
valve, go the the far end of that line and remove the B nut. Fill that
line(which goes to the QDF1) with WD40. Place a shop towl over the start
spyder end and depress the QDF-1 lever or hit the start button. This should
flush out and crap. If this does not work, replace the QDF-1. Have them in
stock if you need one.
Best,
Doug
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Dr Andre Katz <bu131@swbell.net> wrote:
my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual
solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the
stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button
that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into
the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the
plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of
course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in
the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of
the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for
dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think
that the chances of any repair go down in direct proportion of the number
of lookers around the airplane.
any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system.
appreciate any help.
stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)
andres
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
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| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Mark,
When I was in C-130 Flight Engineer school we learned about the buddy
start, and yes it is still in the manuals.
I have not run into anyone who has actually done it. But I understand
it was common during the Viet Nam Era.
The preferred method for a broken starter, is a taxi start, which is
similar to an air start.
All C-130 takeoffs are calculated as three engine takeoffs.
That way if an engine fails you are still able to safely complete the takeoff.
You just hope that you don't loose a second engine during takeoff.
Turban engines create compression differently then Radial engines.
When a turban engine starts turning there is very little compression
to deal with.
As rotation increases, compression increases,
Even with a gentle breeze you can see or hear turban engines spinning.
In a radial engine, as soon as you move the prop, compression starts,
resisting the turning movement.
How much work does it take for you to move you prop by hand?
Do you think that wind from a small prop, creates that much force?
If you could start a Yak-52 with the buddy system, then my prop would
spin on my Yak when parked outside.
We regularly see winds gusting 40-50 MPH, and occasionally going even higher.
I have yet to see my prop (or any other prop) moved by wind force alone.
Laterrrrrr
John Fischer
California City, CA
At 08:27 PM 3/24/2009, you wrote:
>Pappy, I believe you. But I gotta tell you, bungees, ropes or
>??? Hey, whatever works for you! Rog on the safety issues.
>
>Listen, this guy told me this story and I am wondering if anyone has
>heard of anything like this. He claims that he once had a guy pull
>in front of him and run his engine up to just about full power and
>the PROP BLAST from the airplane in front started the aircraft he
>was in behind it!
>
>I have actually seen this method work with two C-130's (called a
>"buddy start"). I have also been in a C-130 at Wake Island that
>rolled down the runway on three engines and air-started the forth on
>take-off. Made me nervous, (we were at Gross Weight), but hey... it
>worked. I have even read of this method (buddy start) being used
>in the early days of jet aircraft! But with something like a Cessna
>180 ?? He says he did it.
>
>I wonder if it would actually work on say a YAK-52? I think I'll
>let someone else test it.. but it certainly sounds good in theory...
>rocks and flying debris aside that is.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>From: "cjpilot710@aol.com" <cjpilot710@aol.com>
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:42:08 PM
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
>
>Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX. Its raining out side, vis is
>down to 1 1/2. Its getting better. At least the wind has dropped below 30kts.
>
>I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of times. A number of "ways" of
>doing it have already been mentioned here but 2 precautions have not.
>
>One: Footing is very important. Ice is obvious but so would be
>loose gravel, oil on black top, etc.
>
>Two: Age. Us older guys have to start considering the
>physiological aspect of our bodies. Old pilots need to be less
>bolder as we progress on ward. :?
>
>I prop a gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought. But to
>prop a M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought. BTW as a co-pilot
>my captain and I once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a
>jeep. We had sheared a starter shaft on the last flight of the day,
>leaving Freeport. The skipper had flown C-47 over the Hump. He
>found a rope and jeep, wrapped the rope around the prop hub several
>times so that it would not slip, and took off in the jeep. My
>instructions were to hit the mags to "both" when the rope came
>clear. Worked like a charm.
>
>There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm right was a
>regular alternate way to prop big engines if needed. I bet it would
>work for us too.
>
>Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
>In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>yakplt@yahoo.com writes:
>Just to stir the pot.
>
>I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else. I do not
>stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than
>maybe a J-3 Cub. Instead, I pull the prop around until I can grab
>the blade standing sideways to the aircraft. I reach down, turn my
>hand towards the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop
>blade, with the blade at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14,
>and about 5 O'Clock for anything that spins the other way, and then
>I move my whole body back while pulling the blade UP. This means
>that my natural motion is AWAY from the aircraft. I can also use my
>whole body to LIFT the prop up. Be aware though, I am big... 6'6"
>plus and well over 280 pounds. (smile). However, I have used this
>method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when no one else could. I did not
>figure this method out. I saw a movie of a guy doing it in the
>1940's. Worked for him. Works for me. But it is not for everyone.
>
>I take exception to ropes. :-) Ropes have a habit of getting
>caught up in things. Seems safe enough but I just can see too many
>things going wrong with a rope. In WW-II a rope and a prop device
>was used to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I
>know of. Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get
>caught up in a whirling prop ... man oh man, LOOK OUT. Ropes have
>been around a long time. So have engines that need to be
>propped. If it has not been done before now, there probably is a
>reason why not. But, wheels always need to be re-invented and I am
>guilty of doing exactly that all the time.
>
>You want to try it.. have at it. Bottom line... people who have
>propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what
>works for me, probably won't work for everyone else.
>
>The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start
>switch is very apt and correct. It would be smart to push that
>button once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me
>for not mentioning it explicitly.
>
>Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just
>asking for it. That is exactly how I ended up with my spare
>YAK-50. Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when
>the thing ran out of air and it ended up crashing into a
>hangar. Bad for him, good for me.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>From: barryhancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM
>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
>
><<mailto:bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
>I think the rope idea is brilliant. Also, you see a lot of guys
>standing in front of the prop to hand prop it. Behind the prop
>would seem to be safer.
>
>All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal
>solution. With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare
>bottle into your system. More useable ballast.... 8)
>
>Barry
>
>Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the
>"there are no old, bold pilots" addage. That guy is amazing... He
>stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of
>him inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the
>water on a river. He's crazy...good, but crazy.
>
>--------
>Barry Hancock
>Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
><http://www.worldwidewarbirds.com/>www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952
>
>
>
>="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>.<http://matronics.com/>matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>----------
>A Good
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
All,
I have made 707 -3 engine takeoffs when I flew with PAA (no pax) to ferry a
a/c to maintenance. Accelerate to Vmcg than start adding power on good
engines while still able to keep it straight, and rotate at Vr with full takeoff
power at that point.
I know that wind milling starts were done on piston jobs because of the
number of old timers who did them. Lots of runway needed. Run down the
runway with the mags on and the prop out of feather. The prop would start to wind
mill, mags kick in - bang- she'd start. It surprisingly didn't take much
speed, and engines like PW 1830 were real easy because their compression was
spread over 14 cylinders. I'd had never heard of a buddy start on the radials
-
but - "never" is not a good word.
In Palestine (Texas that is) 700 overcast and 8nm vis.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 3/26/2009 5:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
fish@aviation-tech.com writes:
Mark,
When I was in C-130 Flight Engineer school we learned about the buddy start,
and yes it is still in the manuals.
I have not run into anyone who has actually done it. But I understand it was
common during the Viet Nam Era.
The preferred method for a broken starter, is a taxi start, which is similar
to an air start.
All C-130 takeoffs are calculated as three engine takeoffs.
That way if an engine fails you are still able to safely complete the
takeoff.
You just hope that you don't loose a second engine during takeoff.
Turban engines create compression differently then Radial engines.
When a turban engine starts turning there is very little compression to deal
with.
As rotation increases, compression increases,
Even with a gentle breeze you can see or hear turban engines spinning.
In a radial engine, as soon as you move the prop, compression starts,
resisting the turning movement.
How much work does it take for you to move you prop by hand?
Do you think that wind from a small prop, creates that much force?
If you could start a Yak-52 with the buddy system, then my prop would spin
on my Yak when parked outside.
We regularly see winds gusting 40-50 MPH, and occasionally going even higher.
I have yet to see my prop (or any other prop) moved by wind force alone.
Laterrrrrr
John Fischer
California City, CA
At 08:27 PM 3/24/2009, you wrote:
Pappy, I believe you. But I gotta tell you, bungees, ropes or ??? Hey,
whatever works for you! Rog on the safety issues.
Listen, this guy told me this story and I am wondering if anyone has heard
of anything like this. He claims that he once had a guy pull in front of him
and run his engine up to just about full power and the PROP BLAST from the
airplane in front started the aircraft he was in behind it!
I have actually seen this method work with two C-130's (called a "buddy
start"). I have also been in a C-130 at Wake Island that rolled down the runway
on three engines and air-started the forth on take-off. Made me nervous, (we
were at Gross Weight), but hey... it worked. I have even read of this
method (buddy start) being used in the early days of jet aircraft! But with
something like a Cessna 180 ?? He says he did it.
I wonder if it would actually work on say a YAK-52? I think I'll let
someone else test it.. but it certainly sounds good in theory... rocks and flying
debris aside that is.
Mark Bitterlich
From: "cjpilot710@aol.com" <cjpilot710@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:42:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX. Its raining out side, vis is down to
1 1/2. Its getting better. At least the wind has dropped below 30kts.
I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of times. A number of "ways" of doing it
have already been mentioned here but 2 precautions have not.
One: Footing is very important. Ice is obvious but so would be loose
gravel, oil on black top, etc.
Two: Age. Us older guys have to start considering the physiological aspect
of our bodies. Old pilots need to be less bolder as we progress on ward. :?
I prop a gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought. But to prop a
M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought. BTW as a co-pilot my captain and I
once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a jeep. We had sheared a starter
shaft on the last flight of the day, leaving Freeport. The skipper had
flown C-47 over the Hump. He found a rope and jeep, wrapped the rope around the
prop hub several times so that it would not slip, and took off in the jeep.
My instructions were to hit the mags to "both" when the rope came clear.
Worked like a charm.
There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm right was a regular
alternate way to prop big engines if needed. I bet it would work for us too.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
yakplt@yahoo.com writes:
Just to stir the pot.
I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else. I do not stand in
front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than maybe a J-3 Cub.
Instead, I pull the prop around until I can grab the blade standing
sideways to the aircraft. I reach down, turn my hand towards the back of the
aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop blade, with the blade at about the 7
O'Clock position for an M-14, and about 5 O'Clock for anything that spins the
other way, and then I move my whole body back while pulling the blade UP. This
means that my natural motion is AWAY from the aircraft. I can also use my
whole body to LIFT the prop up. Be aware though, I am big... 6'6" plus and
well over 280 pounds. (smile). However, I have used this method to start 300+
HP IO-540's when no one else could. I did not figure this method out. I saw
a movie of a guy doing it in the 1940's. Worked for him. Works for me.
But it is not for everyone.
I take exception to ropes. :-) Ropes have a habit of getting caught up in
things. Seems safe enough but I just can see too many things going wrong
with a rope. In WW-II a rope and a prop device was used to pull the engines
through, but never for starting that I know of. Something goes wrong with a
rope, and it happens to get caught up in a whirling prop ... man oh man, LOOK
OUT. Ropes have been around a long time. So have engines that need to be
propped. If it has not been done before now, there probably is a reason why
not. But, wheels always need to be re-invented and I am guilty of doing
exactly that all the time.
You want to try it.. have at it. Bottom line... people who have propped
engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what works for me,
probably won't work for everyone else.
The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start switch
is very apt and correct. It would be smart to push that button once before
anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not mentioning it
explicitly.
Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just asking for
it. That is exactly how I ended up with my spare YAK-50. Guy did exactl;y
that (with no prior YAK experience) when the thing ran out of air and it ended
up crashing into a hangar. Bad for him, good for me.
Mark Bitterlich
From:
barryhancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com_ (mailto:bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com) >
I think the rope idea is brilliant. Also, you see a lot of guys standing in
front of the prop to hand prop it. Behind the prop would seem to be safer.
All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal solution. With a
little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle into your system. More
useable ballast.... 8)
Barry
Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the "there are
no old, bold pilots" addage. That guy is amazing... He stopped into my
hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him inverted with the
vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a river. He's crazy...good,
but
crazy.
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
_www.worldwidewarbirds.com_ (http://www.worldwidewarbirds.com/)
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952)
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) |
I just had an interesting maintenance experience that I thought I would pass on
since "starting problems" seem to be a subject of discussion lately.
Here is what happened:
Hit starter button, engine cranked OK, but did not start. Engine was getting plenty
of fuel, so it seemed to be an ignition related problem. Closed main air
valve (YAK-50) and pushed starter button until starting system was out of air.
Then hit starter button again and noticed that something did not sound exactly
right. There was a small amount of "buzzing" coming from the shower of
sparks vibrator power supply in the nose compartment, but listening to the left
mag... there was no noise at all coming from it. Repositioning the prop did
not change this.
Long story short, the "needle screw" that penetrates the starting ignition wire
coming from the shower of sparks unit to the left mag (in the mag itself) was
no longer making contact, thus there was no energy making it to the spark plugs.
Well.. this high voltage shielded wire for the starting shower of sparks system
is pretty special. It is wrapped in Teflon material and is very hard to penetrate
with the screw in the mag cap. I ended up trying a lot of things, including
sharpening the "screw in thingy" so that it hopefully would penetrate. Then
tried a piece of metal clamped around the wire, folding it back..... that
worked, but it also ended up causing a short circuit to the metal cap of the mag.
Oops. So much for a brand new mag distributor cap. By the way, when this
thing starts burning up electrically, it smells just like rotten eggs. Something
to be aware of.
A lot of methods to get this amazingly simple, yet very difficult to get working
just right, simple wiring connection were tried and very honestly... failed.
The engine would hit on one or two cylinders, try to start, but just would not.
Once again took the mag apart, and then found the wire itself burned in
half. WTF .... OVER!
Ended up taking this stupid mag apart about four times. I know the Russians manage
to do this easily.. but it sure was a pain in the tail for me and with the
two A&P's there helping.
In the end, I took a special wire crimp used for splicing two 12 gage wires together,
then crimped THAT to the end of the ignition wire strand itself, cutting
it down to exactly the right length (little less than inch) and then sticking
THAT whole mess in the hole and tightening the pointy screw thingy into THAT
whole design...which finally fixed it.. for how long is still to be determined.
But.... In the process I came up with some interesting tests which I thought I
would share with the maddening crowd. I'll pass them on just FYI. Some may
find fault with doing something like this... If anyone does, I'm sure they will
let me know.
That said, many of us start our M-14's the same way. As soon as the darn thing
fires, we immediately flip on the mags and away we go. Works good. However...
it can mask the kind of problem that happened to me. There needs to be a
method to really check whether your shower of sparks system is working perfectly,
or just half ass. By that I mean, not sending energy to every cylinder in
the firing order. Hmm.
I came up with this test, and it works.
1. I start the engine and let it warm up normally.
2. Then I shut off the main air supply with the main air valve. (If you have a
YAK-52, you can run your flaps up and down to get all the air out of the system
at this point. )
3. Then with the engine at idle, or very close to it... and I repeat... at idle,
or very close to it.... I take my left hand and put it on the mag switch, and
with my right hand, I get ready to hit the start switch.
4. Then, I shut off the mags... and of course, the engine immediately dies.
5. Before it can slow down much at all, I push in and HOLD the starter button.
The engine should RUN. It will sound a little weird because it is running with
very retarded timing. But it should RUN and it should run smoothly. Only
hold the start button in for maybe a few seconds... no more than say 2 seconds
at most. Even less will get the job done.
6. Then I release the starter button, and as the engine dies, I flip the mags back
on, or.. you can just release the starter button and just let the engine die
and then restart it later if you like.
If it all works as described, the electrical part of your starter system is working
just fine. GREAT! Another thing not to worry about. On the other hand,
if you do this and your engine misses and fires erratically... you have an issue
that you need to fix. SOON! Make sure you do this when the engine is hot...
such as after a flight. It is possible that a cold engine will work perfectly,
but a HOT engine will not. If this happens... the odds are extremely high
that your problem is in the mag itself. In the high tensile ignition wire
connection to the "distributor cap" itself. The little "sharp screw" thingy is
highly suspect.
This is not a test I would advise doing on every flight of course. Once every
few months, or even once a year ought to be enough. Personally, I am going to
do it right before every long cross country flight, but I tend to be a little
paranoid.
Note: Warning: Whatever: I would not advise doing this with any air left going
to the starter system as this will allow the air valves in the cylinder to go
active with the engine already running. Not a good thing. The already ignited
fuel/air mixture on the power stroke SHOULD keep them from opening, but I just
do not want to go there.
Another much more simple way to test this system would be to just start the engine
normally, and then very simply ....just do not turn on the mags. Instead
hold in the starter button to see if it actually will run on the starter button
alone. The downside of doing THAT is that you are still trying to feed air
into cylinders that are also being fired by burning fuel which just can NOT be
a "good thing" so I would advise avoiding that method even though in theory it
might not cause any harm.
Just passing along another lesson learned.
Mark Bitterlich
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Makes sense to me!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fischer
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
Mark,
When I was in C-130 Flight Engineer school we learned about the buddy start,
and yes it is still in the manuals.
I have not run into anyone who has actually done it. But I understand it was
common during the Viet Nam Era.
The preferred method for a broken starter, is a taxi start, which is similar
to an air start.
All C-130 takeoffs are calculated as three engine takeoffs.
That way if an engine fails you are still able to safely complete the
takeoff.
You just hope that you don't loose a second engine during takeoff.
Turban engines create compression differently then Radial engines.
When a turban engine starts turning there is very little compression to deal
with.
As rotation increases, compression increases, Even with a gentle breeze you
can see or hear turban engines spinning.
In a radial engine, as soon as you move the prop, compression starts,
resisting the turning movement.
How much work does it take for you to move you prop by hand?
Do you think that wind from a small prop, creates that much force?
If you could start a Yak-52 with the buddy system, then my prop would spin
on my Yak when parked outside.
We regularly see winds gusting 40-50 MPH, and occasionally going even
higher.
I have yet to see my prop (or any other prop) moved by wind force alone.
Laterrrrrr
John Fischer
California City, CA
At 08:27 PM 3/24/2009, you wrote:
Pappy, I believe you. But I gotta tell you, bungees, ropes or ???
Hey, whatever works for you! Rog on the safety issues.
Listen, this guy told me this story and I am wondering if anyone has
heard of anything like this. He claims that he once had a guy pull in front
of him and run his engine up to just about full power and the PROP BLAST
from the airplane in front started the aircraft he was in behind it!
I have actually seen this method work with two C-130's (called a
"buddy start"). I have also been in a C-130 at Wake Island that rolled down
the runway on three engines and air-started the forth on take-off. Made me
nervous, (we were at Gross Weight), but hey... it worked. I have even read
of this method (buddy start) being used in the early days of jet aircraft!
But with something like a Cessna 180 ?? He says he did it.
I wonder if it would actually work on say a YAK-52? I think I'll
let someone else test it.. but it certainly sounds good in theory... rocks
and flying debris aside that is.
Mark Bitterlich
From: "cjpilot710@aol.com" <cjpilot710@aol.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:42:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX. Its raining out side, vis is
down to 1 1/2. Its getting better. At least the wind has dropped below
30kts.
I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of times. A number of "ways" of
doing it have already been mentioned here but 2 precautions have not.
One: Footing is very important. Ice is obvious but so would be
loose gravel, oil on black top, etc.
Two: Age. Us older guys have to start considering the
physiological aspect of our bodies. Old pilots need to be less bolder as we
progress on ward. :?
I prop a gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought. But to
prop a M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought. BTW as a co-pilot my
captain and I once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a jeep. We had
sheared a starter shaft on the last flight of the day, leaving Freeport.
The skipper had flown C-47 over the Hump. He found a rope and jeep, wrapped
the rope around the prop hub several times so that it would not slip, and
took off in the jeep. My instructions were to hit the mags to "both" when
the rope came clear. Worked like a charm.
There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm right was a
regular alternate way to prop big engines if needed. I bet it would work
for us too.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
yakplt@yahoo.com writes:
Just to stir the pot.
I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else. I
do not stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than
maybe a J-3 Cub. Instead, I pull the prop around until I can grab the
blade standing sideways to the aircraft. I reach down, turn my hand towards
the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop blade, with the blade
at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14, and about 5 O'Clock for
anything that spins the other way, and then I move my whole body back while
pulling the blade UP. This means that my natural motion is AWAY from the
aircraft. I can also use my whole body to LIFT the prop up. Be aware
though, I am big... 6'6" plus and well over 280 pounds. (smile). However,
I have used this method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when no one else could. I
did not figure this method out. I saw a movie of a guy doing it in the
1940's. Worked for him. Works for me. But it is not for everyone.
I take exception to ropes. :-) Ropes have a habit of
getting caught up in things. Seems safe enough but I just can see too many
things going wrong with a rope. In WW-II a rope and a prop device was used
to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I know of.
Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get caught up in a
whirling prop ... man oh man, LOOK OUT. Ropes have been around a long
time. So have engines that need to be propped. If it has not been done
before now, there probably is a reason why not. But, wheels always need to
be re-invented and I am guilty of doing exactly that all the time.
You want to try it.. have at it. Bottom line... people who
have propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what
works for me, probably won't work for everyone else.
The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing
the start switch is very apt and correct. It would be smart to push that
button once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not
mentioning it explicitly.
Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is
just asking for it. That is exactly how I ended up with my spare YAK-50.
Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when the thing ran out
of air and it ended up crashing into a hangar. Bad for him, good for me.
Mark Bitterlich
From: barryhancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping
bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com <mailto:bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com> >
I think the rope idea is brilliant. Also, you see a lot of
guys standing in front of the prop to hand prop it. Behind the prop would
seem to be safer.
All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal
solution. With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle
into your system. More useable ballast.... 8)
Barry
Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to
the "there are no old, bold pilots" addage. That guy is amazing... He
stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him
inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a
river. He's crazy...good, but crazy.
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
<http://www.worldwidewarbirds.com/>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952>
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| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) |
Mark;
You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as "shower of
sparks".
The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar with and
that start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52 different?
Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name for a
start system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that bypassed
the magneto primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary to provide
the high tension current for starting, through the normal distribution
system, that a slow turning mag. could not.
The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary unit that
provides the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in the mag.
distributor.
The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize a
vibrator, i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?) but I
have no idea how that works.
What system do the Yaks use?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:10 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> I just had an interesting maintenance experience that I thought I would
> pass on since "starting problems" seem to be a subject of discussion
> lately.
>
> Here is what happened:
>
> Hit starter button, engine cranked OK, but did not start. Engine was
> getting plenty of fuel, so it seemed to be an ignition related problem.
> Closed main air valve (YAK-50) and pushed starter button until starting
> system was out of air. Then hit starter button again and noticed that
> something did not sound exactly right. There was a small amount of
> "buzzing" coming from the shower of sparks vibrator power supply in the
> nose compartment, but listening to the left mag... there was no noise at
> all coming from it. Repositioning the prop did not change this.
>
> Long story short, the "needle screw" that penetrates the starting ignition
> wire coming from the shower of sparks unit to the left mag (in the mag
> itself) was no longer making contact, thus there was no energy making it
> to the spark plugs.
>
> Well.. this high voltage shielded wire for the starting shower of sparks
> system is pretty special. It is wrapped in Teflon material and is very
> hard to penetrate with the screw in the mag cap. I ended up trying a lot
> of things, including sharpening the "screw in thingy" so that it hopefully
> would penetrate. Then tried a piece of metal clamped around the wire,
> folding it back..... that worked, but it also ended up causing a short
> circuit to the metal cap of the mag. Oops. So much for a brand new mag
> distributor cap. By the way, when this thing starts burning up
> electrically, it smells just like rotten eggs. Something to be aware of.
>
> A lot of methods to get this amazingly simple, yet very difficult to get
> working just right, simple wiring connection were tried and very
> honestly... failed. The engine would hit on one or two cylinders, try to
> start, but just would not. Once again took the mag apart, and then found
> the wire itself burned in half. WTF .... OVER!
>
> Ended up taking this stupid mag apart about four times. I know the
> Russians manage to do this easily.. but it sure was a pain in the tail for
> me and with the two A&P's there helping.
>
> In the end, I took a special wire crimp used for splicing two 12 gage
> wires together, then crimped THAT to the end of the ignition wire strand
> itself, cutting it down to exactly the right length (little less than
> inch) and then sticking THAT whole mess in the hole and tightening the
> pointy screw thingy into THAT whole design...which finally fixed it.. for
> how long is still to be determined.
>
> But.... In the process I came up with some interesting tests which I
> thought I would share with the maddening crowd. I'll pass them on just
> FYI. Some may find fault with doing something like this... If anyone
> does, I'm sure they will let me know.
>
> That said, many of us start our M-14's the same way. As soon as the darn
> thing fires, we immediately flip on the mags and away we go. Works good.
> However... it can mask the kind of problem that happened to me. There
> needs to be a method to really check whether your shower of sparks system
> is working perfectly, or just half ass. By that I mean, not sending
> energy to every cylinder in the firing order. Hmm.
>
> I came up with this test, and it works.
>
> 1. I start the engine and let it warm up normally.
> 2. Then I shut off the main air supply with the main air valve. (If you
> have a YAK-52, you can run your flaps up and down to get all the air out
> of the system at this point. )
> 3. Then with the engine at idle, or very close to it... and I repeat... at
> idle, or very close to it.... I take my left hand and put it on the mag
> switch, and with my right hand, I get ready to hit the start switch.
> 4. Then, I shut off the mags... and of course, the engine immediately
> dies.
> 5. Before it can slow down much at all, I push in and HOLD the starter
> button. The engine should RUN. It will sound a little weird because it
> is running with very retarded timing. But it should RUN and it should run
> smoothly. Only hold the start button in for maybe a few seconds... no
> more than say 2 seconds at most. Even less will get the job done.
> 6. Then I release the starter button, and as the engine dies, I flip the
> mags back on, or.. you can just release the starter button and just let
> the engine die and then restart it later if you like.
>
> If it all works as described, the electrical part of your starter system
> is working just fine. GREAT! Another thing not to worry about. On the
> other hand, if you do this and your engine misses and fires erratically...
> you have an issue that you need to fix. SOON! Make sure you do this when
> the engine is hot... such as after a flight. It is possible that a cold
> engine will work perfectly, but a HOT engine will not. If this happens...
> the odds are extremely high that your problem is in the mag itself. In
> the high tensile ignition wire connection to the "distributor cap" itself.
> The little "sharp screw" thingy is highly suspect.
>
> This is not a test I would advise doing on every flight of course. Once
> every few months, or even once a year ought to be enough. Personally, I
> am going to do it right before every long cross country flight, but I tend
> to be a little paranoid.
>
> Note: Warning: Whatever: I would not advise doing this with any air left
> going to the starter system as this will allow the air valves in the
> cylinder to go active with the engine already running. Not a good thing.
> The already ignited fuel/air mixture on the power stroke SHOULD keep them
> from opening, but I just do not want to go there.
>
> Another much more simple way to test this system would be to just start
> the engine normally, and then very simply ....just do not turn on the
> mags. Instead hold in the starter button to see if it actually will run
> on the starter button alone. The downside of doing THAT is that you are
> still trying to feed air into cylinders that are also being fired by
> burning fuel which just can NOT be a "good thing" so I would advise
> avoiding that method even though in theory it might not cause any harm.
>
> Just passing along another lesson learned.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Hand Propping |
Fish,
I have seen a buddy start...it gets a bit bumpy behind a herk trying to jump start
you. We used to "cuff" #3..or was it "4" for that reason...they quit doing
it years ago...but it can be done.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236327#236327
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| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) |
Correction to last.
"----bypassed magneto primary circuit--- -" should read "points" not
primary circuit.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@persona.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
>
> Mark;
>
> You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as "shower of
> sparks".
>
> The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar with
> and that start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52 different?
>
> Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name for a
> start system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that
> bypassed the magneto primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary
> to provide the high tension current for starting, through the normal
> distribution system, that a slow turning mag. could not.
>
> The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary unit
> that provides the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in the
> mag. distributor.
>
> The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize a
> vibrator, i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
>
> I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?) but
> I have no idea how that works.
>
> What system do the Yaks use?
>
> Walt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:10 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
>
>
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>
>>
>> I just had an interesting maintenance experience that I thought I would
>> pass on since "starting problems" seem to be a subject of discussion
>> lately.
>>
>> Here is what happened:
>>
>> Hit starter button, engine cranked OK, but did not start. Engine was
>> getting plenty of fuel, so it seemed to be an ignition related problem.
>> Closed main air valve (YAK-50) and pushed starter button until starting
>> system was out of air. Then hit starter button again and noticed that
>> something did not sound exactly right. There was a small amount of
>> "buzzing" coming from the shower of sparks vibrator power supply in the
>> nose compartment, but listening to the left mag... there was no noise at
>> all coming from it. Repositioning the prop did not change this.
>>
>> Long story short, the "needle screw" that penetrates the starting
>> ignition wire coming from the shower of sparks unit to the left mag (in
>> the mag itself) was no longer making contact, thus there was no energy
>> making it to the spark plugs.
>>
>> Well.. this high voltage shielded wire for the starting shower of sparks
>> system is pretty special. It is wrapped in Teflon material and is very
>> hard to penetrate with the screw in the mag cap. I ended up trying a lot
>> of things, including sharpening the "screw in thingy" so that it
>> hopefully would penetrate. Then tried a piece of metal clamped around
>> the wire, folding it back..... that worked, but it also ended up causing
>> a short circuit to the metal cap of the mag. Oops. So much for a brand
>> new mag distributor cap. By the way, when this thing starts burning up
>> electrically, it smells just like rotten eggs. Something to be aware of.
>>
>> A lot of methods to get this amazingly simple, yet very difficult to get
>> working just right, simple wiring connection were tried and very
>> honestly... failed. The engine would hit on one or two cylinders, try to
>> start, but just would not. Once again took the mag apart, and then
>> found the wire itself burned in half. WTF .... OVER!
>>
>> Ended up taking this stupid mag apart about four times. I know the
>> Russians manage to do this easily.. but it sure was a pain in the tail
>> for me and with the two A&P's there helping.
>>
>> In the end, I took a special wire crimp used for splicing two 12 gage
>> wires together, then crimped THAT to the end of the ignition wire strand
>> itself, cutting it down to exactly the right length (little less than
>> inch) and then sticking THAT whole mess in the hole and tightening the
>> pointy screw thingy into THAT whole design...which finally fixed it.. for
>> how long is still to be determined.
>>
>> But.... In the process I came up with some interesting tests which I
>> thought I would share with the maddening crowd. I'll pass them on just
>> FYI. Some may find fault with doing something like this... If anyone
>> does, I'm sure they will let me know.
>>
>> That said, many of us start our M-14's the same way. As soon as the
>> darn thing fires, we immediately flip on the mags and away we go. Works
>> good. However... it can mask the kind of problem that happened to me.
>> There needs to be a method to really check whether your shower of sparks
>> system is working perfectly, or just half ass. By that I mean, not
>> sending energy to every cylinder in the firing order. Hmm.
>>
>> I came up with this test, and it works.
>>
>> 1. I start the engine and let it warm up normally.
>> 2. Then I shut off the main air supply with the main air valve. (If you
>> have a YAK-52, you can run your flaps up and down to get all the air out
>> of the system at this point. )
>> 3. Then with the engine at idle, or very close to it... and I repeat...
>> at idle, or very close to it.... I take my left hand and put it on the
>> mag switch, and with my right hand, I get ready to hit the start switch.
>> 4. Then, I shut off the mags... and of course, the engine immediately
>> dies.
>> 5. Before it can slow down much at all, I push in and HOLD the starter
>> button. The engine should RUN. It will sound a little weird because it
>> is running with very retarded timing. But it should RUN and it should
>> run smoothly. Only hold the start button in for maybe a few seconds...
>> no more than say 2 seconds at most. Even less will get the job done.
>> 6. Then I release the starter button, and as the engine dies, I flip the
>> mags back on, or.. you can just release the starter button and just let
>> the engine die and then restart it later if you like.
>>
>> If it all works as described, the electrical part of your starter system
>> is working just fine. GREAT! Another thing not to worry about. On the
>> other hand, if you do this and your engine misses and fires
>> erratically... you have an issue that you need to fix. SOON! Make sure
>> you do this when the engine is hot... such as after a flight. It is
>> possible that a cold engine will work perfectly, but a HOT engine will
>> not. If this happens... the odds are extremely high that your problem is
>> in the mag itself. In the high tensile ignition wire connection to the
>> "distributor cap" itself. The little "sharp screw" thingy is highly
>> suspect.
>>
>> This is not a test I would advise doing on every flight of course. Once
>> every few months, or even once a year ought to be enough. Personally, I
>> am going to do it right before every long cross country flight, but I
>> tend to be a little paranoid.
>>
>> Note: Warning: Whatever: I would not advise doing this with any air left
>> going to the starter system as this will allow the air valves in the
>> cylinder to go active with the engine already running. Not a good thing.
>> The already ignited fuel/air mixture on the power stroke SHOULD keep them
>> from opening, but I just do not want to go there.
>>
>> Another much more simple way to test this system would be to just start
>> the engine normally, and then very simply ....just do not turn on the
>> mags. Instead hold in the starter button to see if it actually will run
>> on the starter button alone. The downside of doing THAT is that you are
>> still trying to feed air into cylinders that are also being fired by
>> burning fuel which just can NOT be a "good thing" so I would advise
>> avoiding that method even though in theory it might not cause any harm.
>>
>> Just passing along another lesson learned.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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