Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:27 AM - Re: RC Allen RCA2600 ADI (barryhancock)
2. 09:55 AM - Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 10:14 AM - Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 12:42 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks; What is it? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 01:33 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks; What is it? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 02:02 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks; What is it? (Jan Mevis)
7. 06:43 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) (Joe Howse)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RC Allen RCA2600 ADI |
Having flown behind Craig's TT ADI, I can give it a big thumbs up. In my opinion,
to go with a old school (even electric) instrument that is twice the money
makes zero sense. The MTBF on this solid state stuff is outstanding and overall
a significantly better value.
Put it this way. After flying behind the TT ADI, I exchanged the standby ADI in
my Legacy for the TT. The original one in my Legacy came out of an F-16.....
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236358#236358
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| Subject: | Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) |
Walt,
Here is how I look at it, and of course everyone is welcome to have their own opinion
on the matter.
Most aircraft engines use mags. Magnetos do not work real well at low RPM, so
starting an engine with them becomes a problem because starters do not usually
spin them fast enough to provide enough spark energy.
Because of that, two systems have been devised to provide for enough energy to
start a mag equipped engine.
1. Impulse couplers.
2. Shower of spark systems.
It appears you want to break down the "shower of sparks" term into two sub-categories
depending on where the secondary portion of the transformer is located.
If the primary and secondary of the transformer are in the same box, you call
it a "boost coil" system. If the secondary is in the mags, it is called a "shower
of sparks" system. If I am correct in that this is your view, that's fine....
But I don't see it that way. Just happens to be my personal opinion on
the matter. But for the sake of discussion, I would appreciate a reference
to the use of the term "boost coil".
To explain: I personally consider any ignition system that uses the basic design
of a doorbell buzzer to create a square wave that then feeds a transformer
can be properly referred to as a "shower of sparks" system.
Regardless of where the primary or secondary of the transformer (in proper terms:
The Ignition Coil) is located, the overall design concept remains identical.
A "doorbell buzzer" (per se) is used to rapidly and continuously open and close
a set of points, that creates a "buzzing" noise. These points are fed by
DC battery voltage, and as they open and close they create a square wave. A
square wave is a form of Alternating Current. Alternating current is needed to
operate a transformer. A transformer always has a primary (voltage input) and
a secondary (voltage output). In the typical M-14 engine design, the primary
and the secondary and the "buzzer" are all located in the same box. This is
identical to the system that was first used in the Model T Ford engine. This
constant energy source is then fed to the magneto cap where it is then fed through
the normal mag rotor to the normal mag cap, then to the spark plugs of
the engine. A second "point" on the rotor is used to create a retarded timing
situation.
The end result is that instead of just one big single energy surge going to each
spark plug in sequence, initiated by the mag point set, there is a solid stream
of spark energy going continuously to each spark plug as the rotor turns creating
more than one spark to each plug, thus the term: "A SHOWER OF SPARKS".
If this is a Trade Word term, so be it.
Some systems actually connect the buzzer points to the P lead of the mag itself.
In the end, you get the exact same effect.... "A shower of sparks".
Yes, the Yak's use a box that contains the buzzer, the primary and the secondary
of the ignition transformer in one box. I call that a shower of sparks transformer.
You call it a "boost coil". No problem.
Mark
P.s. Good reference: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Mark;
You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as "shower of sparks".
The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar with and that
start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52 different?
Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name for a start
system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that bypassed the magneto
primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary to provide the high
tension current for starting, through the normal distribution system, that a slow
turning mag. could not.
The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary unit that provides
the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in the mag.
distributor.
The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize a vibrator,
i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?) but I have
no idea how that works.
What system do the Yaks use?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:10 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> I just had an interesting maintenance experience that I thought I would
> pass on since "starting problems" seem to be a subject of discussion
> lately.
>
> Here is what happened:
>
> Hit starter button, engine cranked OK, but did not start. Engine was
> getting plenty of fuel, so it seemed to be an ignition related problem.
> Closed main air valve (YAK-50) and pushed starter button until starting
> system was out of air. Then hit starter button again and noticed that
> something did not sound exactly right. There was a small amount of
> "buzzing" coming from the shower of sparks vibrator power supply in the
> nose compartment, but listening to the left mag... there was no noise at
> all coming from it. Repositioning the prop did not change this.
>
> Long story short, the "needle screw" that penetrates the starting ignition
> wire coming from the shower of sparks unit to the left mag (in the mag
> itself) was no longer making contact, thus there was no energy making it
> to the spark plugs.
>
> Well.. this high voltage shielded wire for the starting shower of sparks
> system is pretty special. It is wrapped in Teflon material and is very
> hard to penetrate with the screw in the mag cap. I ended up trying a lot
> of things, including sharpening the "screw in thingy" so that it hopefully
> would penetrate. Then tried a piece of metal clamped around the wire,
> folding it back..... that worked, but it also ended up causing a short
> circuit to the metal cap of the mag. Oops. So much for a brand new mag
> distributor cap. By the way, when this thing starts burning up
> electrically, it smells just like rotten eggs. Something to be aware of.
>
> A lot of methods to get this amazingly simple, yet very difficult to get
> working just right, simple wiring connection were tried and very
> honestly... failed. The engine would hit on one or two cylinders, try to
> start, but just would not. Once again took the mag apart, and then found
> the wire itself burned in half. WTF .... OVER!
>
> Ended up taking this stupid mag apart about four times. I know the
> Russians manage to do this easily.. but it sure was a pain in the tail for
> me and with the two A&P's there helping.
>
> In the end, I took a special wire crimp used for splicing two 12 gage
> wires together, then crimped THAT to the end of the ignition wire strand
> itself, cutting it down to exactly the right length (little less than
> inch) and then sticking THAT whole mess in the hole and tightening the
> pointy screw thingy into THAT whole design...which finally fixed it.. for
> how long is still to be determined.
>
> But.... In the process I came up with some interesting tests which I
> thought I would share with the maddening crowd. I'll pass them on just
> FYI. Some may find fault with doing something like this... If anyone
> does, I'm sure they will let me know.
>
> That said, many of us start our M-14's the same way. As soon as the darn
> thing fires, we immediately flip on the mags and away we go. Works good.
> However... it can mask the kind of problem that happened to me. There
> needs to be a method to really check whether your shower of sparks system
> is working perfectly, or just half ass. By that I mean, not sending
> energy to every cylinder in the firing order. Hmm.
>
> I came up with this test, and it works.
>
> 1. I start the engine and let it warm up normally.
> 2. Then I shut off the main air supply with the main air valve. (If you
> have a YAK-52, you can run your flaps up and down to get all the air out
> of the system at this point. )
> 3. Then with the engine at idle, or very close to it... and I repeat... at
> idle, or very close to it.... I take my left hand and put it on the mag
> switch, and with my right hand, I get ready to hit the start switch.
> 4. Then, I shut off the mags... and of course, the engine immediately
> dies.
> 5. Before it can slow down much at all, I push in and HOLD the starter
> button. The engine should RUN. It will sound a little weird because it
> is running with very retarded timing. But it should RUN and it should run
> smoothly. Only hold the start button in for maybe a few seconds... no
> more than say 2 seconds at most. Even less will get the job done.
> 6. Then I release the starter button, and as the engine dies, I flip the
> mags back on, or.. you can just release the starter button and just let
> the engine die and then restart it later if you like.
>
> If it all works as described, the electrical part of your starter system
> is working just fine. GREAT! Another thing not to worry about. On the
> other hand, if you do this and your engine misses and fires erratically...
> you have an issue that you need to fix. SOON! Make sure you do this when
> the engine is hot... such as after a flight. It is possible that a cold
> engine will work perfectly, but a HOT engine will not. If this happens...
> the odds are extremely high that your problem is in the mag itself. In
> the high tensile ignition wire connection to the "distributor cap" itself.
> The little "sharp screw" thingy is highly suspect.
>
> This is not a test I would advise doing on every flight of course. Once
> every few months, or even once a year ought to be enough. Personally, I
> am going to do it right before every long cross country flight, but I tend
> to be a little paranoid.
>
> Note: Warning: Whatever: I would not advise doing this with any air left
> going to the starter system as this will allow the air valves in the
> cylinder to go active with the engine already running. Not a good thing.
> The already ignited fuel/air mixture on the power stroke SHOULD keep them
> from opening, but I just do not want to go there.
>
> Another much more simple way to test this system would be to just start
> the engine normally, and then very simply ....just do not turn on the
> mags. Instead hold in the starter button to see if it actually will run
> on the starter button alone. The downside of doing THAT is that you are
> still trying to feed air into cylinders that are also being fired by
> burning fuel which just can NOT be a "good thing" so I would advise
> avoiding that method even though in theory it might not cause any harm.
>
> Just passing along another lesson learned.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) |
FWIW, the unit on the CJ is identical in every way and thus
interchangeable with the unit on the Yak 52.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Walt,
Here is how I look at it, and of course everyone is welcome to have
their own opinion on the matter.
Most aircraft engines use mags. Magnetos do not work real well at low
RPM, so starting an engine with them becomes a problem because starters
do not usually spin them fast enough to provide enough spark energy.
Because of that, two systems have been devised to provide for enough
energy to start a mag equipped engine.
1. Impulse couplers.
2. Shower of spark systems.
It appears you want to break down the "shower of sparks" term into two
sub-categories depending on where the secondary portion of the
transformer is located. If the primary and secondary of the transformer
are in the same box, you call it a "boost coil" system. If the
secondary is in the mags, it is called a "shower of sparks" system. If
I am correct in that this is your view, that's fine.... But I don't see
it that way. Just happens to be my personal opinion on the matter. But
for the sake of discussion, I would appreciate a reference to the use of
the term "boost coil".
To explain: I personally consider any ignition system that uses the
basic design of a doorbell buzzer to create a square wave that then
feeds a transformer can be properly referred to as a "shower of sparks"
system.
Regardless of where the primary or secondary of the transformer (in
proper terms: The Ignition Coil) is located, the overall design concept
remains identical. A "doorbell buzzer" (per se) is used to rapidly and
continuously open and close a set of points, that creates a "buzzing"
noise. These points are fed by DC battery voltage, and as they open and
close they create a square wave. A square wave is a form of Alternating
Current. Alternating current is needed to operate a transformer. A
transformer always has a primary (voltage input) and a secondary
(voltage output). In the typical M-14 engine design, the primary and
the secondary and the "buzzer" are all located in the same box. This is
identical to the system that was first used in the Model T Ford engine.
This constant energy source is then fed to the magneto cap where it is
then fed through the normal mag rotor to the normal mag cap, then to the
spark plugs of the engine. A second "point" on the rotor is used t!
o create a retarded timing situation.
The end result is that instead of just one big single energy surge
going to each spark plug in sequence, initiated by the mag point set,
there is a solid stream of spark energy going continuously to each spark
plug as the rotor turns creating more than one spark to each plug, thus
the term: "A SHOWER OF SPARKS". If this is a Trade Word term, so be
it.
Some systems actually connect the buzzer points to the P lead of the
mag itself. In the end, you get the exact same effect.... "A shower of
sparks".
Yes, the Yak's use a box that contains the buzzer, the primary and the
secondary of the ignition transformer in one box. I call that a shower
of sparks transformer. You call it a "boost coil". No problem.
Mark
P.s. Good reference:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:45 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Mark;
You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as
"shower of sparks".
The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar
with and that start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52
different?
Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name
for a start system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that
bypassed the magneto primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary
to provide the high tension current for starting, through the normal
distribution system, that a slow turning mag. could not.
The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary
unit that provides the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in
the mag.
distributor.
The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize
a vibrator, i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?)
but I have no idea how that works.
What system do the Yaks use?
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:10 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
>
> I just had an interesting maintenance experience that I thought I
would
> pass on since "starting problems" seem to be a subject of discussion
> lately.
>
> Here is what happened:
>
> Hit starter button, engine cranked OK, but did not start. Engine
was
> getting plenty of fuel, so it seemed to be an ignition related
problem.
> Closed main air valve (YAK-50) and pushed starter button until
starting
> system was out of air. Then hit starter button again and noticed
that
> something did not sound exactly right. There was a small amount of
> "buzzing" coming from the shower of sparks vibrator power supply in
the
> nose compartment, but listening to the left mag... there was no
noise at
> all coming from it. Repositioning the prop did not change this.
>
> Long story short, the "needle screw" that penetrates the starting
ignition
> wire coming from the shower of sparks unit to the left mag (in the
mag
> itself) was no longer making contact, thus there was no energy
making it
> to the spark plugs.
>
> Well.. this high voltage shielded wire for the starting shower of
sparks
> system is pretty special. It is wrapped in Teflon material and is
very
> hard to penetrate with the screw in the mag cap. I ended up trying
a lot
> of things, including sharpening the "screw in thingy" so that it
hopefully
> would penetrate. Then tried a piece of metal clamped around the
wire,
> folding it back..... that worked, but it also ended up causing a
short
> circuit to the metal cap of the mag. Oops. So much for a brand new
mag
> distributor cap. By the way, when this thing starts burning up
> electrically, it smells just like rotten eggs. Something to be
aware of.
>
> A lot of methods to get this amazingly simple, yet very difficult to
get
> working just right, simple wiring connection were tried and very
> honestly... failed. The engine would hit on one or two cylinders,
try to
> start, but just would not. Once again took the mag apart, and then
found
> the wire itself burned in half. WTF .... OVER!
>
> Ended up taking this stupid mag apart about four times. I know the
> Russians manage to do this easily.. but it sure was a pain in the
tail for
> me and with the two A&P's there helping.
>
> In the end, I took a special wire crimp used for splicing two 12
gage
> wires together, then crimped THAT to the end of the ignition wire
strand
> itself, cutting it down to exactly the right length (little less
than =BC
> inch) and then sticking THAT whole mess in the hole and tightening
the
> pointy screw thingy into THAT whole design...which finally fixed
it.. for
> how long is still to be determined.
>
> But.... In the process I came up with some interesting tests which I
> thought I would share with the maddening crowd. I'll pass them on
just
> FYI. Some may find fault with doing something like this... If
anyone
> does, I'm sure they will let me know.
>
> That said, many of us start our M-14's the same way. As soon as
the darn
> thing fires, we immediately flip on the mags and away we go. Works
good.
> However... it can mask the kind of problem that happened to me.
There
> needs to be a method to really check whether your shower of sparks
system
> is working perfectly, or just half ass. By that I mean, not sending
> energy to every cylinder in the firing order. Hmm.
>
> I came up with this test, and it works.
>
> 1. I start the engine and let it warm up normally.
> 2. Then I shut off the main air supply with the main air valve. (If
you
> have a YAK-52, you can run your flaps up and down to get all the air
out
> of the system at this point. )
> 3. Then with the engine at idle, or very close to it... and I
repeat... at
> idle, or very close to it.... I take my left hand and put it on the
mag
> switch, and with my right hand, I get ready to hit the start switch.
> 4. Then, I shut off the mags... and of course, the engine
immediately
> dies.
> 5. Before it can slow down much at all, I push in and HOLD the
starter
> button. The engine should RUN. It will sound a little weird
because it
> is running with very retarded timing. But it should RUN and it
should run
> smoothly. Only hold the start button in for maybe a few seconds...
no
> more than say 2 seconds at most. Even less will get the job done.
> 6. Then I release the starter button, and as the engine dies, I flip
the
> mags back on, or.. you can just release the starter button and just
let
> the engine die and then restart it later if you like.
>
> If it all works as described, the electrical part of your starter
system
> is working just fine. GREAT! Another thing not to worry about. On
the
> other hand, if you do this and your engine misses and fires
erratically...
> you have an issue that you need to fix. SOON! Make sure you do
this when
> the engine is hot... such as after a flight. It is possible that a
cold
> engine will work perfectly, but a HOT engine will not. If this
happens...
> the odds are extremely high that your problem is in the mag itself.
In
> the high tensile ignition wire connection to the "distributor cap"
itself.
> The little "sharp screw" thingy is highly suspect.
>
> This is not a test I would advise doing on every flight of course.
Once
> every few months, or even once a year ought to be enough.
Personally, I
> am going to do it right before every long cross country flight, but
I tend
> to be a little paranoid.
>
> Note: Warning: Whatever: I would not advise doing this with any air
left
> going to the starter system as this will allow the air valves in the
> cylinder to go active with the engine already running. Not a good
thing.
> The already ignited fuel/air mixture on the power stroke SHOULD keep
them
> from opening, but I just do not want to go there.
>
> Another much more simple way to test this system would be to just
start
> the engine normally, and then very simply ....just do not turn on
the
> mags. Instead hold in the starter button to see if it actually will
run
> on the starter button alone. The downside of doing THAT is that you
are
> still trying to feed air into cylinders that are also being fired by
> burning fuel which just can NOT be a "good thing" so I would advise
> avoiding that method even though in theory it might not cause any
harm.
>
> Just passing along another lesson learned.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Shower of Sparks; What is it? |
Walt,
Here is how I look at it, and of course everyone is welcome to have
their own opinion on the matter.
Most aircraft engines use mags. Magnetos do not work real well at low
RPM, so starting an engine with them becomes a problem because starters
do not usually spin them fast enough to provide enough spark energy.
Because of that, two systems have been devised to provide for enough
energy to start a mag equipped engine.
1. Impulse couplers.
2. Shower of spark systems.
It appears you want to break down the "shower of sparks" term into two
sub-categories depending on where the secondary portion of the
transformer is located. If the primary and secondary of the transformer
are in the same box, you call it a "boost coil" system. If the
secondary is in the mags, it is called a "shower of sparks" system. If
I am correct in that this is your view, that's fine.... But I don't see
it that way. Just happens to be my personal opinion on the matter. But
for the sake of discussion, I would appreciate a reference to the use of
the term "boost coil".
To explain: I personally consider any ignition system that uses the
basic design of a doorbell buzzer to create a square wave that then
feeds a transformer can be properly referred to as a "shower of sparks"
system.
Regardless of where the primary or secondary of the transformer (in
proper terms: The Ignition Coil) is located, the overall design concept
remains identical. A "doorbell buzzer" (per se) is used to rapidly and
continuously open and close a set of points, that creates a "buzzing"
noise. These points are fed by DC battery voltage, and as they open and
close they create a square wave. A square wave is a form of Alternating
Current. Alternating current is needed to operate a transformer. A
transformer always has a primary (voltage input) and a secondary
(voltage output). In the typical M-14 engine design, the primary and
the secondary and the "buzzer" are all located in the same box. This is
identical to the system that was first used in the Model T Ford engine.
This constant energy source is then fed to the magneto cap where it is
then fed through the normal mag rotor to the normal mag cap, then to the
spark plugs of the engine. A second "point" on the rotor is used to
create a retarded timing situation.
The end result is that instead of just one big single energy surge going
to each spark plug in sequence, initiated by the mag point set, there is
a solid stream of spark energy going continuously to each spark plug as
the rotor turns creating more than one spark to each plug, thus the
term: "A SHOWER OF SPARKS". If this is a Trade Word term, so be it.
Some systems actually connect the buzzer points to the P lead of the mag
itself. In the end, you get the exact same effect.... "A shower of
sparks".
Yes, the Yak's use a box that contains the buzzer, the primary and the
secondary of the ignition transformer in one box. I call that a shower
of sparks transformer. You call it a "boost coil". No problem.
Mark
P.s. Good reference:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Mark;
You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as "shower
of sparks".
The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar with
and that start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52
different?
Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name for
a start system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that
bypassed the magneto primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary
to provide the high tension current for starting, through the normal
distribution system, that a slow turning mag. could not.
The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary unit
that provides the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in the
mag.
distributor.
The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize a
vibrator, i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?)
but I have no idea how that works.
What system do the Yaks use?
Walt
Message 5
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| Subject: | Shower of Sparks; What is it? |
I am going to add to and simplify this whole posting to a few less
words.
In my opinion any system that uses a door bell buzzer device to open and
close an external point set, that in turn causes a square wave to be fed
to an ignition coil is a "Shower of Sparks" system. It is called that
because, it creates a literal "shower of sparks".
Some shower of spark systems use a transformer outside of the mag
itself. Some others use the internal mag coil to accomplish the same
end. Either way, both methods use a buzzer coil arrangement to create
the square wave that takes battery voltage, converts it to a square
wave, feeds it to a transformer, steps up the voltage and creates a
continuous stream of high voltage that is distributed to the spark plugs
and allows them to fire continuously as the rotor spins and makes
contact with the cap contacts.
The Yak and CJ's use a system where the buzzer, and the transformer are
external to the mag. I guess I just can't see why the name of the
system concept should be changed depending on whether the "coil" is
inside, or outside the mag. But I never agreed to changing cycles per
second to Hertz either! :-)
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks; What is it?
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Walt,
Here is how I look at it, and of course everyone is welcome to have
their own opinion on the matter.
Most aircraft engines use mags. Magnetos do not work real well at low
RPM, so starting an engine with them becomes a problem because starters
do not usually spin them fast enough to provide enough spark energy.
Because of that, two systems have been devised to provide for enough
energy to start a mag equipped engine.
1. Impulse couplers.
2. Shower of spark systems.
It appears you want to break down the "shower of sparks" term into two
sub-categories depending on where the secondary portion of the
transformer is located. If the primary and secondary of the transformer
are in the same box, you call it a "boost coil" system. If the
secondary is in the mags, it is called a "shower of sparks" system. If
I am correct in that this is your view, that's fine.... But I don't see
it that way. Just happens to be my personal opinion on the matter. But
for the sake of discussion, I would appreciate a reference to the use of
the term "boost coil".
To explain: I personally consider any ignition system that uses the
basic design of a doorbell buzzer to create a square wave that then
feeds a transformer can be properly referred to as a "shower of sparks"
system.
Regardless of where the primary or secondary of the transformer (in
proper terms: The Ignition Coil) is located, the overall design concept
remains identical. A "doorbell buzzer" (per se) is used to rapidly and
continuously open and close a set of points, that creates a "buzzing"
noise. These points are fed by DC battery voltage, and as they open and
close they create a square wave. A square wave is a form of Alternating
Current. Alternating current is needed to operate a transformer. A
transformer always has a primary (voltage input) and a secondary
(voltage output). In the typical M-14 engine design, the primary and
the secondary and the "buzzer" are all located in the same box. This is
identical to the system that was first used in the Model T Ford engine.
This constant energy source is then fed to the magneto cap where it is
then fed through the normal mag rotor to the normal mag cap, then to the
spark plugs of the engine. A second "point" on the rotor is used to
create a retarded timing situation.
The end result is that instead of just one big single energy surge going
to each spark plug in sequence, initiated by the mag point set, there is
a solid stream of spark energy going continuously to each spark plug as
the rotor turns creating more than one spark to each plug, thus the
term: "A SHOWER OF SPARKS". If this is a Trade Word term, so be it.
Some systems actually connect the buzzer points to the P lead of the mag
itself. In the end, you get the exact same effect.... "A shower of
sparks".
Yes, the Yak's use a box that contains the buzzer, the primary and the
secondary of the ignition transformer in one box. I call that a shower
of sparks transformer. You call it a "boost coil". No problem.
Mark
P.s. Good reference:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Mark;
You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as "shower
of sparks".
The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar with
and that start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52
different?
Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name for
a start system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that
bypassed the magneto primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary
to provide the high tension current for starting, through the normal
distribution system, that a slow turning mag. could not.
The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary unit
that provides the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in the
mag.
distributor.
The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize a
vibrator, i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?)
but I have no idea how that works.
What system do the Yaks use?
Walt
Message 6
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| Subject: | Shower of Sparks; What is it? |
I agree with your analysis.
But cycles per second IS Hertz, as you know. What's in a name ...
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: vrijdag 27 maart 2009 21:27
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks; What is it?
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I am going to add to and simplify this whole posting to a few less
words.
In my opinion any system that uses a door bell buzzer device to open and
close an external point set, that in turn causes a square wave to be fed
to an ignition coil is a "Shower of Sparks" system. It is called that
because, it creates a literal "shower of sparks".
Some shower of spark systems use a transformer outside of the mag
itself. Some others use the internal mag coil to accomplish the same
end. Either way, both methods use a buzzer coil arrangement to create
the square wave that takes battery voltage, converts it to a square
wave, feeds it to a transformer, steps up the voltage and creates a
continuous stream of high voltage that is distributed to the spark plugs
and allows them to fire continuously as the rotor spins and makes
contact with the cap contacts.
The Yak and CJ's use a system where the buzzer, and the transformer are
external to the mag. I guess I just can't see why the name of the
system concept should be changed depending on whether the "coil" is
inside, or outside the mag. But I never agreed to changing cycles per
second to Hertz either! :-)
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks; What is it?
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Walt,
Here is how I look at it, and of course everyone is welcome to have
their own opinion on the matter.
Most aircraft engines use mags. Magnetos do not work real well at low
RPM, so starting an engine with them becomes a problem because starters
do not usually spin them fast enough to provide enough spark energy.
Because of that, two systems have been devised to provide for enough
energy to start a mag equipped engine.
1. Impulse couplers.
2. Shower of spark systems.
It appears you want to break down the "shower of sparks" term into two
sub-categories depending on where the secondary portion of the
transformer is located. If the primary and secondary of the transformer
are in the same box, you call it a "boost coil" system. If the
secondary is in the mags, it is called a "shower of sparks" system. If
I am correct in that this is your view, that's fine.... But I don't see
it that way. Just happens to be my personal opinion on the matter. But
for the sake of discussion, I would appreciate a reference to the use of
the term "boost coil".
To explain: I personally consider any ignition system that uses the
basic design of a doorbell buzzer to create a square wave that then
feeds a transformer can be properly referred to as a "shower of sparks"
system.
Regardless of where the primary or secondary of the transformer (in
proper terms: The Ignition Coil) is located, the overall design concept
remains identical. A "doorbell buzzer" (per se) is used to rapidly and
continuously open and close a set of points, that creates a "buzzing"
noise. These points are fed by DC battery voltage, and as they open and
close they create a square wave. A square wave is a form of Alternating
Current. Alternating current is needed to operate a transformer. A
transformer always has a primary (voltage input) and a secondary
(voltage output). In the typical M-14 engine design, the primary and
the secondary and the "buzzer" are all located in the same box. This is
identical to the system that was first used in the Model T Ford engine.
This constant energy source is then fed to the magneto cap where it is
then fed through the normal mag rotor to the normal mag cap, then to the
spark plugs of the engine. A second "point" on the rotor is used to
create a retarded timing situation.
The end result is that instead of just one big single energy surge going
to each spark plug in sequence, initiated by the mag point set, there is
a solid stream of spark energy going continuously to each spark plug as
the rotor turns creating more than one spark to each plug, thus the
term: "A SHOWER OF SPARKS". If this is a Trade Word term, so be it.
Some systems actually connect the buzzer points to the P lead of the mag
itself. In the end, you get the exact same effect.... "A shower of
sparks".
Yes, the Yak's use a box that contains the buzzer, the primary and the
secondary of the ignition transformer in one box. I call that a shower
of sparks transformer. You call it a "boost coil". No problem.
Mark
P.s. Good reference:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG)
Mark;
You , and many others on the list, refer to the start system as "shower
of sparks".
The CJ is the only aircraft of this genre that I am fully familiar with
and that start system utilizes a boost coil. Is the Yak 50, 52
different?
Shower of Sparks was, many years ago, a Bendix registered trade name for
a start system that utilized a low voltage ( 12 or 24) vibrator that
bypassed the magneto primary circuit and energized the MAGNETO secondary
to provide the high tension current for starting, through the normal
distribution system, that a slow turning mag. could not.
The boost coil by comparison is a self contained primary/secondary unit
that provides the high tension directly to a retarded electrode in the
mag.
distributor.
The early T6/ Harvard 2 use a boost coil. The T6G/ Harvard 4 utilize a
vibrator, i.e.; Bendix "Shower of Sparks".
I understand there is another shower of sparks system ( by Lamar? or?)
but I have no idea how that works.
What system do the Yaks use?
Walt
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks lesson (LONG) |
Walt
The 18T uses a boost coil
Joe>
>
>
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