---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/27/09: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:55 AM - More on oil consumption (Richard Goode) 2. 09:22 AM - Prop Governor (romanupshaw) 3. 09:38 AM - Re: Prop Governor (NebraskaYak) 4. 01:07 PM - Re: SNF Attendance (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 5. 01:29 PM - Re: Prop Governor (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 6. 04:51 PM - Re: Trade Options... (William Scully) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:31 AM PST US From: "Richard Goode" Subject: Yak-List: More on oil consumption To shed a bit more light on this issue: a.. The main reason for high oil consumption on these engines is the use of old dated-technology aluminium in the pistons, which has a very high rate of thermal expansion. b.. This means that when cold, the pistons have an extremely lose fit in the bores, and a great deal of oil is lost during start-up (would you expect to see that cloud of smoke from your car when you start-up?). c.. Even in the cruise, there is still quite a lot of "slop" at normal operating temperatures, to give the pistons room to expand yet further when the engine gets very hot. d.. Another reason is, again, old-technology piston rings. I am no expert in these areas, but I know that oil consumption can be dramatically improved by the use of better rings. e.. It might seem obvious, but so many people discuss oil consumption during aerobatics. f.. Although the Russians have a very good inverted oil system, it inevitably "breaths" a bit of oil, which is then lost. So no accurate oil consumption of an engine itself can ever be determined through an aerobatic flight. g.. The only way to get an accurate oil consumption - by implication the condition of the engine - is to warm it up; fully scavenge all oil out of the engine by running for 20 seconds at a minimum of 60 percent; shut down and check oil level; fly for a minim of 45 minutes - ideally more; land and re-measure. h.. The figure of 3 litres (effective 3 quarts) per hour from Vedeneyev is the official maximum acceptable. i.. I suspect however that they introduce this simply to cover their backsides in terms of warranty claims. Of course it is ridiculous in that, with a 6 hour endurance in a Sukhoi, you would run of oil long before fuel, if using that much oil! Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Herefordshire HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129 www.russianaeros.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:39 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Prop Governor From: "romanupshaw" Long time reader, rare poster but need some help. I have bugged Carl and Jill with M14P Inc as well as Dennis enough so I thought I would give them a break. Also thought there must surely be someone else out there who has had this problem before who could offer their experience/advice. This is on a Yak 52. The prop "seems" to cycle from fine to coarse perfectly on the ground during run-up. I say "seems" because maybe I am missing something??? Once airborne it refuses to cooperate. The lowest (coarsest) I can get it is 70% with the throttle pulled back to even idle. I did try one recommended test which was while in flight and stable at around 70 square, to quickly (but cautiously) push the prop lever full forward to see if it went toward red line. It did. Linkage seems to be fine, and again, it cycles great on the ground. In the air it acts more like a fixed pitch prop except I can take it from the 70 mark to higher when I need to. It's like the pressure isn't backing off to allow the counter weights to rotate the prop.?! I don't know....which is why I write. Rich Hess also flew it recently and can attest to this. I think it is fine to fly, just not very efficient but I don't fly much for efficiency anyway. It's just starting to bug the crap out of me! I should mention that I just had one blade replaced and both re-painted with new edges. Jill and Carl handled that for me too. (Though I am innocent this time, don't ask why a blade was replaced. Suffice it to say... I now have a stop sign up at the end of my runway) Any input from this well experienced list would be greatly appreciated. Roman Upshaw Mobile Alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241452#241452 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:39 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Prop Governor From: "NebraskaYak" I had a very similar problem last year. In flight I could never get below 70%, but on the ground it checked good. Double check your blade angles. mine were both off a couple degrees. Once I got them set right, everything worked as advertised. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241456#241456 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:01 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: SNF Attendance From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Very well said Pappy, and interesting to read. Thank you. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: SNF Attendance For me its a time to get to see old friends once again. I look passed the culture its leadership that seems to use the good fellowship of the aviation community, for some kind of financial gain. I go there for my self - not them. I do get to see the latest stuff that's coming on line and buy some neat stuff at show prices. One of the things I saw this year was a flying motorcycle. Folding wings, telescoping tail, and ducted fan engine 2 seater. I bet it works. I also saw a new kit glass job that will fly coast to coast at 200mph. Plus getting a close up look at the different LSA stuff. Also I get to hobnob with my Aeroshell buddies. If you think our debriefs are brutal - you should set in on theirs! Flying the show - to me - takes a certain discipline to pull it off without someone getting hurt. Not everyone does it well. Some get to intimidated to even try. Others are quickly asked to stand down. Yes some of the big iron guys fuckup big time, in tune with their egos. IE The Wild Cat pilot who pitched up into our altitude instead of level as instructed. Of course he than proceeded to lose her and ground loop her into the grass on the same landing. He wasn't seen the rest of show. While the show might be great for your ego, there is no place in the show for egos to go unbounded. It will be a long time before I see them paying for all your expenses to go to the show. For none of us lowly formation warbird guys, have the crowed appeal that the acro, military jets, and honest to God acro teams do. I believe the perception of a poor economy (real or not) didn't help. Also the show up at Cecil in honor of Allen cause a number of guys to have to make a choice of either that or SnF. Plus 5 of our number decided to do the Bahamas and were just to popped to pop by the time they arrived there. So it goes. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 4/26/2009 7:33:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jblake207@COMCAST.NET writes: Given the SNF attendance has continued to decline over the last few years, for various reasons, what are you're predictions for continued attendance at SNF? Maybe it's time SNF leadership started thinking about a different approach to customer satisfaction. Both from an airplane owner and traditional GA attendee's perspective. JB ----- Original Message ----- From: cjpilot710@aol.com To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:50:17 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: Yak-List: What is your typical oil consumption? My M-14p is using about 1 1/2 qts per hour. Oil consumption has gone up since new but that was 1500 hours ago.. All rings (except # 9) have over 1000 hours on them. Low cylinder is 72/80. I use nothing but 60wt detergent oil and 50wt when it gets a little cooler. Have 10 micron filter which is still very clean (no metal) after each change. I run cruise at 2000 rpm/28mp and acro at 2400 rpm and 32-33 mp. I have the top end of the governor set at 2850. Temp is usually at 150 to 160C cylinders and oil temp out is around 100C. I am planning to go to gap less rings, flat head close tolerance pistons and perhaps with "O" ring valve seals. Because of the high time on the bottom end, I don't like the idea of boosting up the horsepower to God knows what. Besides money IS the constrainting factor. Hopefully if my retirement fund turn around enough to make my wife feel comfortable, I hope to do this later this year. Maybe this "top" over haul, will see me though my old age. :)) BTW, Back from Sun&Fun. Three years ago was the "Hay Year". Last year was the "Mud Year". This year will be known as the "Soot Year". The airport authority at LAL decided to burn the aircraft tiedown area after cutting it and not finding any one to bale the left over hay. Of course the rains did not come! The result was blowing black soot everywhere. Just walking though it kicked up black clouds. People looked like Al Jolson look a- likes. I caught sight of the T-6 guys right after starting engine for the show. It looked like all of them had way over rich mixtures. A number of WBs left early because of it. As it was the count from last year was down 30%. Saturday's crowed was OK but the earlier part of the week was way way off. RPA again put up the most A/C. but our numbers were way down too. The most we put up on one day was 8. The last day we put up 6 but that included 2 orphaned T-34 guys. The T-6 guys were lucky to get 4 for the "Missing Man" salute. Boggs has tighten up the show and run-in lines. It requires some very precise flying on the part of the lead. Flying with my canopy open, I had the "experience" on landing of feeling the blast and the HEAT, when "Dynamite" set off a charge between me and a Wildcat flat out and level with me, on a "strafing" pattern. Great fun. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 4/26/2009 3:37:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, yakplt@yahoo.com writes: 1 quart = 0.946 liter. My M-14P has burnt about 1 liter per hour since new. Every M-14 (except for one) that I have worked on burnt that much or more. Nothing wrong with that amount of usage unless you see it leaking out all over the engine compartment obviously. I have been told that filling the oil tank all the way to the top and then doing hard acro is not a bright move as it will spew oil everywhere. I have found personally that this seems to be true, especially with negative G stuff. When planning that kind of flight, I usually plan on having a total of 9-10 liters showing on the stick (these are short flights and the oil is checked after each flight). There are also a few folks who claim less oil consumption and lower oil temps when doing hard acro in hot weather switching to straight 60 weight oil. I haven't tried that yet, but plan to. Not recommended for cold weather ops of course. The one exception to this usage was an specially modified M-14 that used gapless rings and re-machined valve guides with "O" ring seals. The pistons had also been changed with a tighter tolerance and a 3 ring piston vice 4. This beast ran cool, the oil stayed clean and did not turn black, no oil ran out the pipes after flying, and oil usage went to close to ZERO. Tom Johnson's YAK-50 has these mods, and so did Sergei Boriak's Suke. I think Bill Blackwell is offering this mod now and boy would I love to be able to afford it. Mark Bitterlich N50YK ________________________________ From: N642K To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:51:13 PM Subject: Yak-List: What is your typical oil consumption? Curious about my oil consumption and how it relates to the group as a whole. I'm typically burning a little less than a quart an hour in my Housai. About 250 hours since first overhaul. Occasionally more. How about you? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241138#241138 ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Yak-List ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributi on ________________________________ Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. 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Get the Radio Toolbar ! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Prop Governor From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" I am not totally sure of the problem.. .but as I understand it, you are saying that in straight and level flight, if you pull the throttle to IDLE (???) your engine RPM does not go below 70% ??? Really? And... 1. You have not adjusted or replaced the prop governor. 2. You did not have this problem until recently. 3. You just removed and replaced the prop blades. If this is correct... And ONLY if this is perfectly correct, then follow the Tech Reps Rule. Suspect ANY problem to be where humans last had their hands involved. In this case, check the blade angles on the prop blades after they were re-installed into the prop hub. Also, it would be of interest to know what your RPM is in flight at full power with the prop handle pushed all the way forward to the stop.. An exact number. If it seems like it is going to go over 100%, then of course STOP and go not further. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of romanupshaw Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:16 PM Subject: Yak-List: Prop Governor --> Long time reader, rare poster but need some help. I have bugged Carl and Jill with M14P Inc as well as Dennis enough so I thought I would give them a break. Also thought there must surely be someone else out there who has had this problem before who could offer their experience/advice. This is on a Yak 52. The prop "seems" to cycle from fine to coarse perfectly on the ground during run-up. I say "seems" because maybe I am missing something??? Once airborne it refuses to cooperate. The lowest (coarsest) I can get it is 70% with the throttle pulled back to even idle. I did try one recommended test which was while in flight and stable at around 70 square, to quickly (but cautiously) push the prop lever full forward to see if it went toward red line. It did. Linkage seems to be fine, and again, it cycles great on the ground. In the air it acts more like a fixed pitch prop except I can take it from the 70 mark to higher when I need to. It's like the pressure isn't backing off! to allow the counter weights to rotate the prop.?! I don't know....which is why I write. Rich Hess also flew it recently and can attest to this. I think it is fine to fly, just not very efficient but I don't fly much for efficiency anyway. It's just starting to bug the crap out of me! I should mention that I just had one blade replaced and both re-painted with new edges. Jill and Carl handled that for me too. (Though I am innocent this time, don't ask why a blade was replaced. Suffice it to say... I now have a stop sign up at the end of my runway) Any input from this well experienced list would be greatly appreciated. Roman Upshaw Mobile Alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241452#241452 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:52 PM PST US From: William Scully Subject: Re: Yak-List: Trade Options... Hi Rico;=0A------------- I'm Bill Scully & I work for a Canadian importer of CJ's. Will have 2 a/c arriving from China in Ju ne. (no exact date yet). I-may be interested in some type of trade.... my CJ's will be latest release from military & in very good condition. { appr ox. 1990 yr. of mfg. }.. I can sell-/ trade either "in box" or, certified & flying.=0A------------ If you are interested, pl esase send me as many pics & all info on your a/c.... I'm in LA ,Ca...... c ell-# (213) 820-1564.- call or "E" anytime bwt. 7am & 10pm. PST=0A- ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ---------- Thanks=0A----------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ---------------- Bill---=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Rico Jaeger =0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:49 :52 AM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Trade Options...=0A=0A=0AHi, Guys! Just throwin g this out there...I've been hoping to get into a Yak / CJ for a while now. I have a nice Fairchild PT-26 project well under way, a nice Vultee BT-13 project and a flying '66 C150. I would trade any or all for a Yak / CJ. I h ave many pix / inventory lists available. Talk to me. If you know of an opp ortunity that will not be seen on the list, please feel free to advise. I'm determined to-get there one way or another...! Thanks so much, and have a great day! Rico=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>>> Yak-List Digest Server 4/16/2009 1:59 AM >>>=0A*=0A=0A=========== ===============0A-- Online Versions of Toda y's List Digest Archive=0A================ ==========0A=0AToday's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the =0Atwo Web Links listed below.- The .html file includes the Digest formatted =0Ain HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes =0Aand Message Navigation.- The .txt file i ncludes the plain ASCII version =0Aof the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor =0Asuch as Notepad or with a web browser. =0A =0AHTML Version:=0A=0A--- http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview. php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 09-04-15&Archive=Yak=0A=0AText Version:=0A=0A--- http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Styl e=82701&View=txt&Chapter 09-04-15&Archive=Yak=0A=0A=0A=== =====================0A-- EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive=0A=========== =============0A=0A=0A---------- ----------------------------------------------------------=0A---- ---------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive=0A------------------- ------------------ ---=0A---- ---------------- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/15/09: 3=0A---------- ------------------------------ ----------------------------=0A=0A=0AToday's Message Index:=0A------------- ---------=0A=0A---- 1. 08:37 PM - Tailwheel adapter update 2- (We sley Warner)=0A---- 2. 10:41 PM - Nanchang Cylinder Base Gaskets- (Jay McIntyre)=0A---- 3. 11:20 PM - Re: Nanchang Cylinder Base Gas kets- (Frank Stelwagon)=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________- Me ssage 1- _____________________________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 08:37:22 PM PST US=0ASubject: Yak-List: Tailwheel adapter update 2=0AFrom: Wesley Warne r =0A=0AGuys,=0A- I've been talking to the guy o n the phone as my trip was postponed.=0AI took what he had file wise and up dated it.- Attached is a 3D pdf of=0Awhat the adapter looks like.- Just click on the image after the pdf=0Aloads and you can rotate it around, etc ...- I'm now traveling this=0Aweekend and should be able to meet with him and drop off the original=0Aprototype.- I'll let you guys know more, whe n I do.=0A=0AWes=0A=0A________________________________- Message 2- ____ _________________________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 10:41:45 PM PST US=0ASubjec t: Yak-List: Nanchang Cylinder Base Gaskets=0AFrom: Jay McIntyre =0A=0AHi all.=0AJust had a newly overhauled Housai loosen the #4 cylinder base nuts after=0A2.1 hours.=0AUpon removing the cylinder we foun d the rear 2 sets of studs had no tab=0Awashers or other form of locking on them.=0AWe also found that all 8 other cylinders have a base gasket of ver y soft=0Ametal construction - #4 had the normal paper gasket.=0ACan anyone tell me what these gaskets would be made of as we have not=0Adisturbed any of them.=0AAlso... what are peoples views on running without the gaskets an d just the=0AO-ring (like most other engines). I am sure the Chinese put th e gasket there=0Afor some reason. Anything to do with the shot peening on t he mating face of=0Athe crankcase????=0A=0Aregards, Jay=0ANew Zealand.=0A =0AP.S this is the same aircraft that I had the voltage regulator/generator =0Aproblem with. It was cured by finding a serviceable voltage regulator... .=0AInterestingly the other aircraft we were playing with had the solid sta te=0Aregulation system with the big heat sink in place of the regulator. Th e=0Awiring was reversed on it and we cured our induced problem by flashing the=0Agenerator in the opposite way to which the wiring diagram indicated! =0A=0A________________________________- Message 3- ____________________ _________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 11:20:55 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Frank Stelwagon " =0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Cylinder Ba se Gaskets=0A=0AUse the O-ring and a thin coating of Hylomar (sp) with no g asket.- The =0AHylomar can be hard to find, it is a Permatex brand. Use h e lock tabs.=0A=0AFrank =0AN23021=0A- ----- Original Message ----- =0A- From: Jay McIntyre =0A- To: yak list =0A- Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2 009 10:40 PM=0A- Subject: Yak-List: Nanchang Cylinder Base Gaskets=0A=0A =0A- Hi all.=0A- Just had a newly overhauled Housai loosen the #4 cylin der base nuts =0Aafter 2.1 hours.=0A- Upon removing the cylinder we found the rear 2 sets of studs had no =0Atab washers or other form of locking on them.=0A- We also found that all 8 other cylinders have a base gasket of very =0Asoft metal construction - #4 had the normal paper gasket.=0A- Ca n anyone tell me what these gaskets would be made of as we have not =0Adist urbed any of them.=0A- Also... what are peoples views on running without the gaskets and just =0Athe O-ring (like most other engines). I am sure the Chinese put the =0Agasket there for some reason. Anything to do with the s hot peening on =0Athe mating face of the crankcase????=0A=0A- regards, Ja y=0A- New Zealand.=0A=0A- P.S this is the same aircraft that I had the voltage =0Aregulator/generator problem with. It was cured by finding a serv iceable =0Avoltage regulator....=0A- Interestingly the other aircraft we were playing with had the solid =0Astate regulation system with the big hea t sink in place of the =0Aregulator. The wiring was reversed on it and we c ured our induced =0Aproblem by flashing the generator in the opposite way t o which the - --> http://www--> http://forums.matronics.comsp;--- ------ - List Contributinbsp;----------- -------------&--> http://www.matroni==== ==============0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.